Need Help! Good deal on pure latex bliss - Nature - or maybe not?

[rcseisland]

Hi Phoenix, Sorry bout that; I didn’t mean to shout . Thank you for your detailed reply. I have read, printed and reread your email and all the links. So, yesterday, I spent over 2 hours at the mattress store. I brought 2 pillows and a blanket and spent quite a while on the PLB Nature. I also spent about 30 minutes on a very soft PLB model called World’s Best Bed, which felt good on my side but bad on my back. I tried a few Serta iComfort’s (with very cooling memory foam) as well. I’m still not 100% confident that the Nature is going to work and I will go back in the next few days and spend some more time before a final decision is made. I did find the Nature more comfortable using a $100 PLB latex pillow than my own latex pillow. I think it was a little softer and higher. Part of the problem is that my shoulder and hip was a little sore to begin with. The salesman was very nice and said that I was in alignment but I’m not sure. I also have a Dreamfoam Ultimate Dreams twin (level eight) in my guest room and I slept on it last night. It is better than the 6 but still not perfect, and very hot.

I checked out the website “Sleep Like a Bear” as a previous poster said that the 1" talalay gl with celcion did the trick keeping her cool, so I am considering that. Question: If I put that on my Dreamfoam Ultimate Dreams level 6, do you think it would relief my hip pain and make my current bed more a fit? I don’t know what their return/exchange policy is. Or, if I get the Nature or the Sam’s Club version of White Night and they are too hard/hot, would the one inch celcion topper be enough or would 2" be better? Another question (if you know): do you feel that the White Night would be firmer than the Nature based on the specs, or less firm. I can tell you that the Ultimate Dreams 6 that I have is definitely firmer than the Pure Latex Bliss Nature (unless, I was mistakenly sent something firmer than the 6.) By the way, the PLB Nature has a great price of $1800, King, including box spring with innards by Leggart and Platt. (My current bed is Queen.)

Any opinions/feedback is MUCH appreciated as I am truly sleep deprived and not thinking clearly!

[phoenix]

Hi rceisland,

I can tell you that the Ultimate Dreams 6 that I have is definitely firmer than the Pure Latex Bliss Nature (unless, I was mistakenly sent something firmer than the 6.)

I actually meant to write “softer” rather than “firmer” (21 ILD is softer than 28 ILD) so your experience makes sense to me and I’ve edited my reply so that is doesn’t confuse someone else that reads it (although softness and firmness can be very subjective and a mattress that “should” feel softer “in theory” doesn’t always feel that way for some people).

I also spent about 30 minutes on a very soft PLB model called World’s Best Bed, which felt good on my side but bad on my back.

I would be very careful with this because it’s a very soft mattress and while it may feel good in a showroom … for side sleeping especially … it would be much more risky in terms of alignment and it’s not really possible to “fix” a mattress that is too soft without removing and replacing the comfort layers.

I tried a few Serta iComfort’s (with very cooling memory foam) as well.

I would also be a little cautious with “trusting” this because while gel memory foams can feel cooler initially … they don’t always stay that way once temperatures equalize over the course of the night (see post #2 here).

I did find the Nature more comfortable using a $100 PLB latex pillow than my own latex pillow. I think it was a little softer and higher. Part of the problem is that my shoulder and hip was a little sore to begin with.

It’s not unusual at all that shoulder pressure issues or other upper body issues can be helped with a more suitable pillow and your hip pressure issues could also be helped with a softer/thicker comfort layer.

I also have a Dreamfoam Ultimate Dreams twin (level eight) in my guest room and I slept on it last night. It is better than the 6 but still not perfect, and very hot.

As you probably read in the previous post I linked … softer mattresses will tend to sleep warmer than a mattress that uses the same materials in a firmer version because you will sink into the foam more deeply so the foam will be more insulating.

I checked out the website “Sleep Like a Bear” as a previous poster said that the 1" talalay gl with celcion did the trick keeping her cool, so I am considering that.

Talalay GL has a phase change gel in the latex which can make a slight difference in sleeping temperature but not a lot (see post #2 here). The only way to know whether a slight difference would be “enough” would be based on your actual sleeping experience. It would typically make less difference than your mattress protector and your sheets but the Talalay GL would also be closer to your body which can make more difference than if it was under a layer of quilting foam.

Question: If I put that on my Dreamfoam Ultimate Dreams level 6, do you think it would relief my hip pain and make my current bed more a fit?

It would depend on the firmness of the Talalay GL but if it was softer (either 15 or 21 ILD) then it would make some difference in softness. While it’s not possible to know or quantify how much difference it would make for any individual person or whether the difference would be “enough” for you or not (only you can feel what you feel on a mattress) … in the topper guidelines I linked earlier (in post #8 here) I describe the effect of a 1" topper as being a “touch to a little bit of difference” but it’s not really possible to accurately describe a subjective experience which can be different for different people. Describing softness is like describing taste … you can talk about it in general terms but only personal experience can really tell you what it’s like in “real life”.

Or, if I get the Nature or the Sam’s Club version of White Night and they are too hard/hot, would the one inch celcion topper be enough or would 2" be better?

Again … I would use your actual sleeping experience along with the topper guidelines I linked to decide on the thickness/softness of a topper that would have the best chance of success. “Theory” based on specs alone (either yours or a mattress or topper) isn’t the most effective way to choose a topper.

Another question (if you know): do you feel that the White Night would be firmer than the Nature based on the specs, or less firm.

Different people would probably describe the comparison differently (depending on their body type, sleeping positions, and individual sensitivity) and I don’t have any personal experience on the White Night and haven’t tested them side by side (which is the most reliable way to know how they would compare for a particular person) but if I had to guess I would say the White Night would feel firmer for most people.

By the way, the PLB Nature has a great price of $1800, King, including box spring with innards by Leggart and Platt.

I would avoid an actual box spring with a latex mattress (if you mean a box spring that has springs inside that flex) and they will generally do better with a rigid non flexing support surface with an evenly supportive surface such as a foundation or platform bed with narrow gaps so the latex doesn’t sink into the gaps over time. You can read more about the type of support systems that are generally best for different types of mattresses in the foundation post here. I would avoid the PLB foundations that come with their mattresses because they are not good quality or well designed.

Phoenix

[cado212]

Dear Phoenix,

I’ve decided to jump on the latex mattress bandwagon B) Yesterday I went to Savvy Mattress in Lynnwood, WA. They had a mattress marketed as latex, organic. Price with tax and delivery is $985. Guess the price makes me a little skeptical. Also, I’ve tried to do some research on the mattress and can’t seem to find anything that I can be sure is about this mattress which adds to my skepticism. I did notice it’s a 2012 model. It appears the company is Restwell. The name of the mattress (at this store) is Green Natural, and there was a web site listed on the sales material: www.novosleep.com. I have to be honest and say that I didn’t ask too many of the pertinent questions because I was planning to go home and research it and wasn’t planning to go latex until yesterday so wasn’t educated enough to ask the right questions. If I go back I’m noq armed with a lot more questions but was also wondering if you can shed any light on this mattress. Alternatively, I am also considering the LatexBliss, probably the Nature. The Pamper seemed a bit too firm. I tested and will likely buy (if I purchase the PLB) from 6 Day Mattress in Redmond.

I am a pure back sleeper, 124 lbs. Thanks for your help!

Carol

[phoenix]

Hi cado212,

I would be very cautious here because you are probably looking at a mattress that was purchased as part of a liquidation lot for pennies on the dollar and the risk would be very high that you are buying a used mattress that was either a comfort return or a warranty return.

Restwell is a Spring Air and Comfort Solutions (King Koil) licensee in Vancouver that also makes their own line of mattresses but like any mattress, the name of the manufacturer isn’t nearly as important as knowing the specifics of all the layers and materials inside a mattress so you can identify any weak links and make more meaningful comparisons to other mattresses (see this article). I wouldn’t purchase any mattress without knowing this information. If the retailer can’t tell you then you may be able to find out the information you need from Restwell. I would also be very cautious about purchasing a liquidated and probably used mattress. There is more about buying a mattress from a liquidator here and here and here and more about some things you can check for if you are considering buying a used mattress in post #2 here as well.

While I don’t know the specifics of what is inside the mattress you are looking at … you could check the law tag to at least find out the type of materials it includes (listed by weight percentage rather than thickness percentage) to see what percentage was latex. It’s very possible that is contains “some” latex and then other types of materials as well. I would very much doubt that it could legitimately be called “organic”.

I would treat this or any mattress purchase where you may be buying a used mattress with no warranty and where you don’t know the type and quality of the materials inside it as a very high risk and “buyer beware” purchase.

Just in case you haven’t seen it yet … the better options and possibilities in and around the Seattle region (subject to the guidelines here) are listed in post #2 here.

Phoenix

[cado212]

Thank you, Phoenix! The mattress in question is supposed to be new and does come with a 20-year warranty. I am going to ask the salesperson for the specs on the mattress, and we’ll see what her reply is. That being said, I’m still feeling very wary and after already being burned on one mattress (just sold it today on CL! Yay!) I’m treading very carefully.

I’ve been reading more of your articles and forum information today and now am leaning towards purchasing from Sleep EZ. Of course it’s a little disconcerting purchasing a mattress I haven’t test driven, but they have a good return policy, they are on your recommended list, and I like what other members have been saying. The only issue is trying to decide which one is the right one for me, but I’m guessing their CS people will be able to assist with that.

Oh, and I did review the list of companies local in the Seattle area. One is right across from Overlake Med Ctr, where I work, and there are several not far from me.

Thank you again!

Carol

[phoenix]

Hi cado2012,

Thank you, Phoenix! The mattress in question is supposed to be new and does come with a 20-year warranty. I am going to ask the salesperson for the specs on the mattress, and we’ll see what her reply is. That being said, I’m still feeling very wary and after already being burned on one mattress (just sold it today on CL! Yay!) I’m treading very carefully.

With a manufacturing date of 2012 … it’s not likely that the mattress is either new or that it has a manufacturer’s warranty (see their page here which says “Products do not come with warranties”. I would also keep in mind that a warranty only covers defects in a mattress and not the gradual (or rapid) loss of comfort or support that is the most common reason you would need to replace a mattress. The length of a warranty is never as important as knowing the type and quality of the materials in a mattress and that it has little to do with the quality or useful life of a mattress (see post #174 here). You could always check with Restwell to see if they are an authorized dealer and if they were then they would almost certainly have a number of current Restwell mattresses on their showroom floor.

I’ve been reading more of your articles and forum information today and now am leaning towards purchasing from Sleep EZ. Of course it’s a little disconcerting purchasing a mattress I haven’t test driven, but they have a good return policy, they are on your recommended list, and I like what other members have been saying. The only issue is trying to decide which one is the right one for me, but I’m guessing their CS people will be able to assist with that.

As you probably know from your reading here … Sleep EZ would be a great quality/value choice and a component latex mattress has the advantage of having many options to customize your mattress both before and after a purchase either by rearranging layers or exchanging a layer.

When you can’t test a mattress in person then the best way to choose which mattress would likely be best for you would be a more detailed conversation on the phone where they can help “talk you through” the options they have available that would have the best chance of success based on the averages of other customers that are similar to you (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here). Any local testing you have done on different latex mattresses that use either Dunlop or Talalay in different firmness levels so you have some sense of what latex feels like in general and which type of latex you tend to prefer would also be useful.

Phoenix

[rcseisland]

Phoenix,

As always, your help and guidance is immensely appreciated.

I wound up buying the PLB Nature after 3 sales people, and a friend agreed that my spine appeared to be in alignment. To date, I have slept on the bed for 28 days and initially I found it quite comfortable. In fact, I still do find it comfortable except over the last week my sleeping has caused pretty bad upper middle back pain. I have never felt pain in the area before. The pain first started when I slept on my back, with a pillow under my knees, and either no pillow under my head or an old pancake flat one. Now, I am noticing it when I sleep on my side. I have a thick latex pillow and a new PLB latex pillow which I’ve been alternating on my side. Of note, I did not get the same foundation that was on display with the Nature in the store. Instead, they delivered a PLB covered wooden slat foundation which, to me, appears to be of inferior quality, with the slats at least 5 inches apart. Do you think this could be contributing to my painful upper/mid back? I didn’t say anything upon delivery because my plan was to upgrade to an adjustable bed in a couple of months.

I’m open to any corrective action: new pillow? topper? foundation? or exchange? Thank you for your suggestions.

P.S. I wish there was a such thing as a mattress guru, that one could hire and take with to find the perfect bed. A new field! LOL!

[phoenix]

Hi rcseisland,

Instead, they delivered a PLB covered wooden slat foundation which, to me, appears to be of inferior quality, with the slats at least 5 inches apart. Do you think this could be contributing to my painful upper/mid back?

It would certainly be possible yes. The PLB foundation is not particularly good quality and it could be allowing the mattress to sink into the wider gaps. You can see some comments about their foundation in post #44 here and the posts it links to. You could test the effect of the foundation by either sleeping with your mattress on the floor or by putting a sheet of plywood over the foundation to see if it makes a difference in your experience. If this helps then an adjustable bed would also have a solid non flexing support surface and it would provide the same support as having your mattress on the floor or with a sheet of plywood underneath it.

The Nature has 2" of 21 ILD latex over 2" of 28 ILD latex over a firmer support core which is somewhat similar to the Dreamfoam mattress you tried earlier which had 1.5" of softer quilting foam over a 3" layer of 28 ILD latex and since that was too firm for you and given your lighter weight it’s also possible that the Nature may be a little on the firm side for you as well and if that’s the case then some of the suggestions in post #2 here may be helpful.

There is also more information in post #2 here about the more common symptoms that people may experience on a mattress and some of the possible reasons behind them that may also help you to clarify the types of changes that may help with the “symptoms” you are experiencing.

While there is no way for me to know with any certainty because I can’t feel what you feel on a mattress … if none of these suggestions are helpful and if I had to guess about the types of changes that may make a difference I would say that you may do better with some additional thickness/softness in your comfort layers.

Phoenix

[rcseisland]

Thanks for your quick reply. I will check out the referenced posts when I get home from work. I will look into getting a piece of plywood to fit my king sized bed. I suppose Home Depot or Lowes would be the place to go? I found it curious that you think the PLB Nature may be too firm. Although it felt firm for the first couple of nights, it feels soft to me now. I live in S. Fla; perhaps the warmer weather has a softening effect on the foam? If I were to get a topper, do you know of any online sellers with a return policy? I don’t mind spending the money if my back issues will be solved, but want the ability to return or at least exchange if it doesn’t work out. I’m hoping that the foundation modification solves everything.

[phoenix]

Hi rcseisland,

I suppose Home Depot or Lowes would be the place to go?

They both sell plywood yes. I would use indoor plywood that is at least 1/2" thick, untreated, and sanded on at least one side. It may be worthwhile testing your mattress on the floor before buying the plywood to confirm that the foundation is the issue.

I found it curious that you think the PLB Nature may be too firm. Although it felt firm for the first couple of nights, it feels soft to me now.

It’s certainly possible that your mattress is too soft for you and that could also account for your symptoms so I would trust your own perceptions and personal experience and “best judgement” over my guesswork.

Latex isn’t temperature sensitive like memory foam so the weather wouldn’t be affecting the firmness of the latex.

Hopefully the firmer support from the plywood will solve the issue but if you do decide to try a topper then post #2 here and the topper guidelines it links to includes a link to the better topper sources I’m aware of and a link to the topper sources I’m aware of that have a return or exchange policy as well.

Phoenix

[rcseisland]

The PLB Nature mattress is on the (carpeted) floor and I will write again in a few days. My dogs are quite happy with this arrangement! Wish me luck!

[phoenix]

Hi rceisland,

The PLB Nature mattress is on the (carpeted) floor and I will write again in a few days. My dogs are quite happy with this arrangement! Wish me luck!

Good luck … and I hope it helps to solve the issues you are having … and doesn’t create any new ones with the dogs

I’m looking forward to your feedback in a few days.

Phoenix

[rcseisland]

Good morning Phoenix,

I have slept 2 nights with the PLB Nature mattress on the floor. It, surprisingly, feels very differently than it did on the foundation, and not in a good way. It feels very, very firm! My shoulders don’t sink in so they roll up and cause discomfort, and overall I don’t find it comfortable at all. My neck and back hurt. Maybe there is a new break-in period with the bed on the floor? I believe that the foundation that came with the bed allows for sinking in the shoulder and hip areas but it otherwise doesn’t support the bed properly. Not to mention that it caused upper middle back pain. What are your thoughts?

I still feel this is a very high quality mattress and I would like to solve it rather than return it. I viewed the page with all the toppers that have a good return or exchange policy. I’m inclined to go with a PLB topper because it’s somewhat cooler and helpful for my hot flashes. Would you recommend a 2" or 3"? I am 5’4", weigh 130-135# and am built curvy. The PLB topper is much more money than I want to dish out but I can justify it if it lasts many years to come. I also need to research their fast vs slow topper.

Obviously, my goal is to be 100% comfortable and pain free and sleep well.

Thanking you in advance.

[phoenix]

Hi rceisland,

At least you have confirmed that the foundation wasn’t supporting the mattress properly because there should be little to no difference between a suitable foundation and the floor.

I still feel this is a very high quality mattress and I would like to solve it rather than return it. I viewed the page with all the toppers that have a good return or exchange policy. I’m inclined to go with a PLB topper because it’s somewhat cooler and helpful for my hot flashes. Would you recommend a 2" or 3"? I am 5’4", weigh 130-135# and am built curvy. The PLB topper is much more money than I want to dish out but I can justify it if it lasts many years to come. I also need to research their fast vs slow topper.

Post #2 here and the topper guidelines it links to have some suggestions about choosing the thickness and firmness that have the best chance of success and links to some of the better topper sources I’m aware of as well but the only way to know for certain whether a topper will be a good match for you and your mattress will be based on your actual sleeping experience so the return or exchange policy can be an important part of choosing a topper in case your “best guess” doesn’t turn out as well as you hope for.

The PLB topper would only be slightly cooler when you first go to sleep at night but won’t make a great deal of difference over the course of the night compared to a regular Talalay topper (see post #2 here).

Most of the PLB retailers I’m aware of don’t allow returns or exchanges on a topper so when you are in a trial and error mode it may be a good idea to purchase an equivalent topper from a source that allows for exchanges or returns and they will likely have a lower price than the PLB topper as well.

Phoenix

[rcseisland]

Hi Phoenix,

After reading your suggestion, I decided to try a 2" queen size memory foam topper, which I own and is at least 2 years old, (Bergad 5 lb memory foam) on my new king bed. I have an Outlast cover on it. I have slept on it 3 nights and it feels very comfortable and soft and doesn’t make anything hurt…until I get up. I am having slight low back pain after slleping on my back. I still have upper mid back pain as well and some neck/shoulder pain. I don’t know if this is residual or new pain.

I looked at the sites for latex toppers with strong return/exchange policies and they are expensive. First, I went to a mattress store in Ft. Lauderdale which carries both the Nature and the PLB 3 inch topper, which may be too thick/squishy. Later, I went to the store where I bought my PLB Nature mattress and tried a 2" topper there which felt comfortable, but the base where the PLB Nature sits atop is a L & P base so I don’t know if it would feel the same at home. Pure Latex Bliss has discontinued the 2" active fusion topper. The owner reportedly would agree to sell me the 2" topper for $299, which is a fair price.

I would like to try to mimic the “Beautiful” model by PLB, if possible. Can you help me figure out if this, or another latex topper, could feel somewhat like the Beautiful model? What ILD should I be looking for to achieve this? I’ve also looked on Amazon and eBay and the prices seem to be more in my range; I just have to see each individual return policy.

One more thing, The adjustable split king base by Sleep Science seems to be a great deal at Costco for $1599. I wanted to get your thoughts on this.

I’m beginning to have second thoughts whether the Nature is the right bed for me to be totally pain free…

[phoenix]

Hi rcseisland,

After reading your suggestion, I decided to try a 2" queen size memory foam topper, which I own and is at least 2 years old, (Bergad 5 lb memory foam) on my new king bed. I have an Outlast cover on it. I have slept on it 3 nights and it feels very comfortable and soft and doesn’t make anything hurt…until I get up. I am having slight low back pain after slleping on my back. I still have upper mid back pain as well and some neck/shoulder pain. I don’t know if this is residual or new pain.

The lower back pain would generally indicate that there was too much thickness/softness in the upper layers of your sleeping system (the topper in combination with the softer comfort layers in your mattress). The other issues could be a residual from your previous experience or could also be from comfort layers that are too thick/soft or possibly a pillow issue as well.

the base where the PLB Nature sits atop is a L & P base so I don’t know if it would feel the same at home.

Any base that has very little to no flex would feel the same as another base under your mattress (or the floor) which also has very little to no flex.

I would like to try to mimic the “Beautiful” model by PLB, if possible. Can you help me figure out if this, or another latex topper, could feel somewhat like the Beautiful model? What ILD should I be looking for to achieve this? I’ve also looked on Amazon and eBay and the prices seem to be more in my range; I just have to see each individual return policy.

The design of the Nature is too different from the Beautiful to be able to match one to the other with a topper but the closest “approximation” would probably be to add a 2" - 3" Talalay latex topper in either 14 ILD (for blended Talalay) or 15 ILD (for Talalay GL fast response). A link to a list of the better sources for latex toppers that I’m aware of are in the topper guidelines I linked in my last reply but I would make sure you talk with KTT since they can supply any of the latex made by Latex International and have some very good prices.

One more thing, The adjustable split king base by Sleep Science seems to be a great deal at Costco for $1599. I wanted to get your thoughts on this.

Post #3 here and the adjustable bed thread it links to has more information about choosing an adjustable bed but if the Sleep Science has the features that you want and is less than other adjustable beds with the same or very similar features in the same size then it would certainly be worth considering and the price seems to be very reasonable to me.

Phoenix

[rcseisland]

Thank you!! I’m waiting for a call back from Maureen at KTT Enterprises. Have a great weekend and I’ll try not to bother you.

[cado212]

Hey Phoenix,

Just wanted to let you know that I went to Slumber Ease Factory (Marysville, WA) today. Nick wasn’t there, but I worked with Rex and thought he was great. Very knowledgeable. Although I’m leaning towards latex, he also had me try some other mattresses. He even suggested I wait a few days and come back again and try out the two that I felt best met my needs. No pressure. The mattresses I’m considering are a little pricier than I thought buying factory-direct would be but within the range that you would expect of good quality latex mattresses. On another note, I also went to 6-Day Mattress (Redmond, WA). Again, no pressure, but I didn’t feel the salesperson (not Bald Bob) was as informative as Rex. I was able to ‘test drive’ several Pure Latex Bliss mattresses and am going back to try them again now that I’ve tried some other latex mattresses. Interestingly, it seems I do the best with 36 ILD–at least that was consistent at both 6-Day and SEF. When I go up to 40, it initially feels good (I’m a back sleeper and like firm-ish), but I think that would be too firm over time.

Another note–which might be interesting to other members who want to purchase PLB–I contacted one of the MU members to get a quote. Jeff Scheuer, Owner, Mattress to Go, got back to me very quickly, and his quote for PLB Nature came in about $300 less than what I would pay at 6DM. When you factor in our high sales tax in WA, it will be more like a $500 difference. With Mattress to Go, there is no sales tax, and the quote included white glove delivery. As much as everyone loves Bald Bob, and as much as I would like to purchase locally, $500 is nothing to sneeze at–especially tacked on to a $2K mattress.

So… I am so grateful for all the information you provide. I never would have thought about going factory direct, and your recommendations of knowledgeable and reputable mattress sellers is invaluable.

Looking forward to a better night’s sleep soon!

Carol

[phoenix]

Hi cado212,

Thanks for taking the time to share your comments and feedback … I appreciate it

He even suggested I wait a few days and come back again and try out the two that I felt best met my needs. No pressure.

I think that this was a good suggestion because sometimes if you test too many different mattresses on the same day it’s easy to get “testing fatigue” where everything starts to blur together and you get desensitized and can lose track of all the differences between mattresses you have tested.

I’m looking forward to finding out what you end up deciding.

Phoenix

[phoenix]

Hi rcseisland,

Have a great weekend and I’ll try not to bother you.

I’m “on duty” 7 days a week and your questions are always welcome no matter which day of the week

Phoenix