We purchased an extra firm king avocado mattress with a King base from Mattress Foundations (recommended on this site) We are surprised at having such a hard time adjusting to the firmness of the bed with lots of change in sleep position and pillow adjustments all through the night. I ordered a high end oxygen pillow from European Sleep Works after researching potential solutions with hopes of making the trial period less uncomfortable, but things don’t seem to be improving each night with lots of aches and pains. In your opinion, do we wait it out? If so, how long before we might expect some softening? Considering purchasing a 3 inch Talalay topper at a hefty price to lessen the pain while we wait? Unsure where to go from here if we end up returning it - we really really like firm and we both loved this over all others on the showroom floor, but this is really more uncomfortable than we anticipated in terms of a break-in process. Suggestions welcome! Thanks so much
I don’t expect an extra firm latex bed to break in much really ever. It seems like what happened is you liked the support of the extra firm but you’re not getting pressure/stress relief.
The thing about a standard built latex bed, or the usual offering from most brands is that they’re medium+ firmness, and with latex you will still have an on top feel even at 6/10.
You could try a topper, but it’s like you’re putting a 4/10 firmness layer on a 10/10 firmness mattress. You’ll still feel the firmness of the bed. My recommendation would be to return it if possible without costing a lot, and try just a standard built latex bed from avocado, birch or saatva. Even though they say they’re 6/10 they still in practice feel firm because you get almost no sinkage.
Thank you, I think you may be saying what I am afraid may be true. We did love “testing out” this bed in the showroom (the only one we really liked to our surprise) and hadn’t even considering latex, but the pain is real:) It is returnable after 30 days (which I am counting:) Appreciate your insight.
One additional question for Maverick if he’s around to share his own personal experience and wisdom. I noticed that you and your wife prefer a very firm bed (the plank was too firm for us) but see that you add a 3 inch Talalay topper to it. Wondered if this would be worth the time/energy/money just to see if it changes things assuming it’s returnable. I have an oxygen pillow on the way also at your recommendation and wondered if you think this would be worth it before returning our current extra firm avocado. Thanks for any personal experience and advice as a firm bed sleeper!
@Maverick help with tagging character limit
First, your height, weight, and primary sleep position will tell us a lot about whether a topper is likely to help. That said, one thing working in your favor is that you have the Extra Firm Avocado, which is only about 9.75" thick. The regular Firm is around 11.5", so adding a topper to the Extra Firm isn’t layering an excessive amount of cushioning over the support core.
As for my wife and me, we definitely prefer a firm mattress, although at 66 and 63 we’ve also come to appreciate a little pressure relief. The Plank Luxe is still our benchmark for firmness, but I also think the ThermoBalance Elite Firm and Helix Plus Elite are excellent alternatives because they provide very firm support with a slightly more forgiving comfort layer. An added benefit is that both allow the comfort layer to be swapped if your needs change. She is constantly telling me how she loves the ThermoBalance Elite Firm when she goes in the guest room to read and falls asleep.
Regarding the 3" Talalay topper, I actually have several toppers at home and have experimented quite a bit. My two favorites on the Plank Luxe are a 3" organic wool topper and a 3" Firm Talalay (36-38 ILD). Neither one really softens the mattress dramatically. Instead, they preserve the flat, supportive feel while adding just enough contouring and pressure relief. The Talalay, in particular, is interesting because it feels firmer than the Plank’s HD polyfoam, yet contours to the body better at the same time. The bed is still unquestionably firm. The wool is very nice to sleep on, but the funny thing is it leaves body impressions in the wool. Although it is quite normal for wool, it just looks odd when you make the bed.
My reasons for using a topper are probably different than yours:
- Add a little contouring and pressure relief.
- Maintain a very firm, flat sleeping surface while reducing pressure points, especially when side sleeping.
- Protect the mattress and improve the longevity of the entire sleep system. When I remove my topper, the mattress underneath still looks almost new.
In your case, if you decide to try a topper, I probably wouldn’t choose a firm Talalay like I use. Since your Avocado is already providing plenty of support, I’d lean toward a Medium Talalay in roughly the mid-20 ILD range. Latex has a naturally buoyant feel and pushes back more than memory foam, so even a medium Talalay still feels supportive while providing noticeably better pressure relief.
Is it worth the investment? I think it can be, especially since a quality latex topper can be used on future mattresses as well. However, before spending that kind of money, I’d want to know exactly what you’re feeling on the Avocado. Are your shoulders getting sore? Hips? Lower back? Do you wake up feeling pressure points, or does the mattress simply feel too unyielding everywhere? That answer would help determine whether a topper is likely to solve the problem.
As for the Oxygen Pillow, assuming you selected the correct loft and firmness, I think it will be a very worthwhile addition. It’s one of the most structured, supportive pillows I’ve used and does an excellent job maintaining cervical alignment. Since it’s already on the way, I’d wait until you’ve slept on it for several nights before making any other changes. Sometimes a pillow can make a surprisingly large difference in overall comfort, even if the discomfort seems to be coming from elsewhere.
One other option you may not have considered is the half-wedge topper from European Sleep Works. I used one when I injured my back and it made a tremendous difference. It tapers from about 4" down to 1", supporting the shoulders through the hips and creating a gentle incline. It feels exceptionally soft and relieving on sore joints while still maintaining support. The only downside is that it’s a little awkward to keep positioned on the bed, so once my back recovered I went back to my Talalay topper.
I also spent some time with the Helix Premium Microcoil Luxury Firm topper. It was very good, but I ultimately preferred the flatter, more consistent feel of the Talalay latex.
Before buying anything, though, I’d be interested to hear exactly where you’re hurting and what positions you sleep in. That would make it easier to determine whether a topper is likely to help or whether the mattress itself simply isn’t the right match. Finally, you have only had the Avocado for 8 days, you should not be making a decision at least until day 30 or more. The mattress needs to break in a little, you body needs to adjust to the new mattress, you need that better pillow, so there is a lot going on at the same time. Give it a little time to really figure out what exactly is going on and how it is improving… or not.
Thoughts?
Maverick
Side question, not to distract, how tall is the comfort layer in that thermobalance? I had the idea that it’s possible to use any material inside the zippered cover. It could be a latex thermobalance elite with a 3" layer of talalay
I am not 100%, I will check mine when I get a free moment, but I think it is 6". I think the Helix line is 6" too. It’s either 4 or 6. When I get a chance I will measure mine next time I change the sheets.
the ThermoBalance Elite and Elite LX are the same thickness. The Elite does not use Latex where the LX does.
- 0.75" ThermoPhase Foam
- 0.75" Quilt Foam
- 0.75" Quilt Foam
- 1" HD 4.0 Copper Memory Foam
- 1" VX 2.5 Responsive Foam
- 1" Talalay Latex
- 0.75" Zoned Lumbar Support
Thanks so much for your reply Maverick. We found it very helpful. My husband is 6 foot and ~ 210 pounds, I am 5’3 and in the 140’s. He sleeps mostly on his side(s) and sometimes back, I sleep on my sides to start and usually end up on my back and occasionally stomach… but that’s rare. The first night we each woke up in the morning and were uncomfortable and stiff all over which was to be expected. Since then I have had real difficulty sleeping, waking up a lot, feeling like I’m on a “plank” or “board” and not able to get comfortable at all. My husband has been able to sleep but he literally sleeps through anything:) He has some hip pain since the bed change, I have not. I mostly feel very tired, irritable and little sore (pressure points?) because I can’t get comfortable and wake up frequently No shoulder pain for either of us. In terms of your questions the “mattress simply feels too unyielding everywhere” is exactly how I am experiencing it, to my complete surprise, as I really enjoy a firm bed. My husband can literally sleep anywhere and is less aware of the change in bed than me, but is agreeing that its not as comfortable as the one we tested out in the showroom - which clearly had been slept on a lot - it sagged slightly on the edge I noticed in the showroom. We experienced the extra firm avocado as very soft on top with an underlying firmness that we both loved above all the other mattresses we tried that day. (Sleep Loft midtown Manhattan) I certainly thought we would end up buying a BB thermoelite in firm as you have described in your guest room, as that seemed to fit what we might like but I decided to head into the city so we could test it out in person before ordering. To our surprise, we didn’t like the comfort layers on top of either the helix or the thermoelite - too squishy with little hills and valleys:). The only models that felt good was a very basic BB model w/ no cushioning and then my husband suggested the Titan which came somewhat close to the firm feeling we prefer, but neither of us fell in love with it. When we went over to the latex section I just laid down on the extra firm avocado and loved it immediately d/t the firmness and what I experienced as a softness I assume from the latex.. My husband laid down and felt the same way - we were shocked. They had us try a naturepedic (most expensive mattress in the store) but we liked the avocado extra firm much better at a far lesser price point - naturepedic felt too cushiony:) but in fairness may not have even been a firm, which are rare in most showrooms. I tried another latex and I thought we might like this too d/t a similar “softness” to it, but no question that the avocado extra firm was the bed we would have chosen if we had to spend the night in the showroom ~ lol:) Suddenly we were buying latex, which I really hadn’t researched because it felt far too complex every time I searched a thread on MU. (couldn’t imagine replacing parts of my bed by ourselves at the time, seems like a real advantage now that I am more familiar:) Yesterday out of frustration and lack of sleep:) I took off all the bedding and started rolling all over the mattress for 10 -15 minutes. My husband did the same later in the day. I washed all the linens and we put the bed together for our sleep last night and we both experienced a softness for the first time that we hadn’t experienced since the store. I thought it was noticeable so did he. Although I didn’t sleep perfectly there was some small improvement. The pillows I am using are now 3 (used to be 2)and much thicker in height so I know the Oxygen will be a needed improvement assuming the sales person at European and I did a good job picking my size over the phone. It’s due in early next week from California, if not before. We are interested in the possibility of a Talalay topper, if also just to preserve our mattress should we end up keeping it, so have started that research. We both agree with your advice to slow this process down and try one new thing at a time. Any further advice should we go with a topper is appreciated (3 inch Talalay in medium (mid 20’s) seems to be what I am hearing). At the very least we have to get thru at least 30 days in order to return, but if things improve we have a year to decide with only a minimal fee. Where to go next, if we do return this, is a nightmare I don’t want to contemplate, but any suggestions in terms of next direction, should that happen will be welcome from the experts on this amazing forum. Thanks so much.
Seems like a good idea to keep breaking it in, if you do everything you can to break it in without tearing up the base springs that’ll leave no question about it if that’s the cause of the discomfort or not.
Hey sully2
As logic might suggest, if the Avocado in the store softened up enough for you to like the showroom model, the one at home should eventually follow in the showroom model’s footsteps. The big question is simply how long it will take. Latex itself generally doesn’t soften dramatically like memory foam, but the cover, quilting, wool, and latex all relax somewhat during the break-in period, which can be enough to noticeably change the overall feel.
It is good to hear that after removing the linens from the mattress, things were starting to get better. It is hard to know whether that improvement came from rolling on the mattress, a few more nights of break-in, or having the bedding off for a while, but very tight fitted sheets or mattress protectors can limit the natural expansion of the comfort layers and project a sense of additional firmness, particularly with latex, which tends to have a buoyant pushback on its own.
Yes, I still go back to my suggestion of a Talalay topper in the low- to mid-20 ILD range as a logical option, and with the lower comfort layer height and overall height of the Avocado, adding the topper would be similar to the construction of many other well-regarded firm mattress designs. That said, I would continue taking things one step at a time and give the mattress more opportunity to break in before making that decision.
I don’t like seeing folks in pain, but I do think there is room for improvement here as the materials continue to relax. Interestingly enough, I am 6’0", 220 lbs., and my wife is 5’4", around 135 lbs. We sleep on the Plank Luxe. Some people actually feel that the Avocado Extra Firm is firmer than the Plank Luxe because latex has a more buoyant pushback than polyfoam, which can create the perception of greater firmness even when the underlying support is quite similar.
You may want to skip the fitted sheet for a little while if it fits particularly snug and just use the top sheet, gently tucking it under the mattress. It is a simple experiment that costs nothing and may allow the comfort layers to move a little more freely during the break-in period.
I also do not like making major decisions before the 30- to 60-day mark. Since you both liked the firmness and feel of the showroom model, I’d be encouraged by the fact that you each noticed some improvement after working the mattress. I think giving it a bit more time is the most sensible approach before deciding whether a topper is needed or whether a return makes more sense.
Maverick
Hi Sully2;
For people who like a firm mattress I generally recommend a 2" dunlop topper. A 3" Talalay topper can mask the firmness of the mattress especially for a 140# person. Two inches of latex gives enough softness to cushion shoulders and hips but you still get the feeling of the firm mattress underneath. The toppers that we use are a 55D (density) and have worked well for customers in your situation. The two inch topper is less expensive and I feel more versatile for other sleep situations. Someone may say that a soft 2" topper will not be enough cushion for you but again you want a firm mattress but need a little softness. Just food for thought.
Dennis
Extra firm mattress is doing its job as being extra firm. What drove you to buy the extra firm mattress? Stomach sleeping?
Thank you I will keep this in mind if we end up purchasing a topper . So appreciate the advice!
As I mentioned, we like firm, not soft mattresses and simply went to the showroom to test them out rather than simply researching online and taking our chances with delivery to our home. Having said that we seem to have chosen a bed that was very well “softened” by people lying on it 7 days a week which our new bed is definitely not. In addition the extra firm label didn’t scare us cuz we knew we liked firm (but to our surprise did not like the plank that maverick prefers, probably because firmness is such a subjective, individualized concept) To answer your question and to Maverick’s point If we can get this extra firm to the softness of the one in the store we will be sleeping beautifully:) I only sleep on my stomach when I can’t get comfortable (which is my current situation) but I am mostly side and back, my husband is a side sleeper.
Thank you maverick, I completely agree. Will follow up after the trial period, so people can learn from our experience. The oxygen pillow is expected from California on Tuesday:) so am looking forward to that!
It sounds like you may actually have a good match in terms of support, but the comfort layer just isn’t quite there yet. Since you both loved the extra firm Avocado in the showroom because of its supportive feel, I wouldn’t rush to replace the mattress, especially since you’re already noticing some improvement after breaking it in.
The “plank” feeling you’re describing is usually more about needing additional pressure relief rather than needing a softer support system. Since you’re primarily side sleepers, your shoulders and hips need enough cushioning to settle in while keeping your spine aligned.
If you do decide to try a topper, one option worth looking into is the Berkeley Ergonomics Natural Talalay Latex Topper. It uses natural Talalay latex with a breathable cotton and wool-filled cover, adding a layer of comfort while keeping the mattress cool and responsive. Since latex is naturally resilient, it can soften the surface feel without changing the underlying support of your Avocado.
I would also give the mattress and your new pillow some time before making too many changes at once. A new mattress, especially a very firm one, can require an adjustment period, and it can be difficult to tell what is helping if you change multiple variables at the same time.
Since you both clearly prefer a firm feel, I’d focus on fine-tuning rather than making it significantly softer. The goal is keeping the firm, supportive base you loved in the showroom while adding just enough cushioning for your pressure points.
These products are very overpriced for the materials included. A birch latex topper can be bought for $500 for a king size and comes with 2" of talalay in a nice cotton cover. Or a saatva for 400 if they only needed 1.5" of softness. It doesn’t make sense to charge $1300 for a topper with 1.25" of latex.
Hi, that’s honestly a fair point. In terms of value, the Birch topper is definitely a good option, especially since it also uses Talalay latex and an organic cotton cover. However, I do think that the main reason why the Berkeley topper is priced higher is because of how it’s built. It uses a wool-filled stretch knit cotton cover rather than just a cotton cover, and wool is a more premium material that helps with temperature regulation and moisture control. Berkeley is also a smaller one-family one-factory company, so their products are made on a different scale than larger brands. Due to their smaller scale, they also are able to deliver a higher quality product.
How much wool is in it?