Need help to find chemical-free mattress in Texas

Dear Phoenix,

 I spent yesterday in Dallas/Fort Worth trying some other options in my quest for a chemical free mattress that is comfortable to me. 
 One stop I made was the Original Mattress Factory in Fort Worth, which I believe is a member of this site. The factory showroom was small and factory-like. We were there to look at & try the two sided latex mattresses. I had been told by the owner earlier in the week that they could make one with organic cotton and wool to meet my prescription and my need for something chemical free. The owner was not there and the guy who was helping us was nice, but did not know about this, so he had to call the owner on the phone. As we were in the showroom, unfortunately for me, all the symptoms of the reaction that I had had to my new Simmons toxic mattress started to develop. I knew that I really had to get out of there pretty quickly. The salesperson and I went into the factory to look for the bolt of the organic cotton fabric that the owner had told us we could find via phone. When we found the fabric, it was quilted with the wool and then--sadly--had a backing that was definitely not cotton or anything natural. When we called the owner back and I asked him what this backing was, he told me that it was the fire retardant layer, but for me not to worry as they would just tear it off before they put it on the mattress. This manner of approach to creating a chemical-free mattress was simply not "safe" enough for me at all. The chemicals of the fire retardant were already touching the wool and to me that would contaminate the whole mattress. Meanwhile my allergy symptoms were getting worse, so even thought the prices were very good there, I had to walk away since they could definitely not meet my needs for a chemical free mattress. I would not recommend this manufacturer to anyone with chemical sensitivities based on my experience.
 We also visited a store called Green Living in the design district where they had the Savvy Rest serenity on display. Mainly I wanted to see if my impressions of this mattress would be the same as they were the previous week in Austin and also wanted my husband to try some different layering options to see what suited him, I still felt pretty good with the soft talalay over med. dunlop and firm dunlop. We also tried a soft talalay topper over soft, med, firm, dunlop layers. This arrangement was most pleasing to my husband and ok for me, but I still felt like something was "not right" even though I couldn't really pinpoint it. This was my reaction to this bed last week as well.
 At the Sovn store, we were taken through testing out our options with an excellent salesperson. She was just the right blend of knowledgable and knowing when to give a person some space. Each time, we were given the task of comparing only 2 mattresses and choosing the one that felt best for each of us. We eventually narrowed it down to the one bed that we both kept choosing over another each time. This was their I-Willow firmness level C, which is the innerspring with the honeycomb bi-level coils and 2" soft talalay over the innersprings (I think it was 24 or 25 ILD). We both liked the way this bed felt. I think I really liked it alot because it was very close in feeling to what I remember our old mattress that we had for 21 years being like before it wore out. I guess the innersprings had a familiar feel to me. Anyway, this mattress seemed very well constructed. The latex was in a "sock" like the Suite Sleep model last week. The cover was lovely and had a nice layer of wool. The flexible slatted base that we tried it with also seemed well crafted. I felt very comfortable with all of the materials in this mattress being "safe," mostly because I had read up on them in advance on their website. We also tried the mattress on the floor to see how it felt if it were not on the flexible slat base. I think that I really did prefer the give of the flexible slat base, but it felt great on the floor too of course I guess it is all relative when you haven't slept on a real mattress in a month.
 All in all, I think that this mattress might be "the one." Now, after coming home and reading up about Berkeley Ergonomics on this site and others, I am faced with the unfortunate fact that Sovn charges $3500 for this set (in Cal King) plus another $100. or so to get this to the Tyler, TX area where I live. I am definitely going to go back and lay on this mattress again one more time to make sure it is as awesome as I thought yesterday, and when I do, I plan to go armed with the prices that some of the other dealers sell it for in an attempt to see if they will come down.
 So far, through the posts on this site, I have found sleepworks.com and sleepdesign.com carrying it with a different name for $2800. I need to find out what they charge for shipping. I also found designsleep.com for $2820 plus $395 shipping to any of the 48 states. What are some other dealer that I might check out that carry the Berkely Ergonomics mattresses?
Also, regarding the flexible slat base, do you have any opinion as to whether or not this is a good option? It felt good to me, but I guess I am old fashioned and used to an old school box spring. If my understanding is correct, you can make parts of it "harder" or "softer" by controlling the amount of 'give." Any thoughts?

Again, I thank you for your time and all of the work and knowledge you put into this site. I would like to make a donation. How does one go about doing that?

Lisa

Hi lmcgehee,

Thanks for sharing some great feedback about your journeys,

As you mentioned … the Mattress Factory is not designed as an “organic” or “natural” mattress from the ground up and while they offer great value … I can also see why they don’t fit your “value equation”.

The Berkeley Ergonomics at Sovn is also an excellent mattress but as you mentioned they charge more for the same mattress than the other manufacturers that sell them across the country.

SleeplessinDallas’s posts (you can just click this) may also be helpful to you and while she originally chose the flexible slatted base … she ended up exchanging it for a firm foundation which was better for her in the long term. Hopefully she’ll notice your post and provide you with some of her updated insights about Sovn and her mattress as well.

I wouldn’t automatically assume that the tension adjustable slats are better but if the benefits are clear for you in terms of either pressure relief or alignment (compared to a firm slatted base) then the flexible base would be a good choice but of course like so many other things connected to mattresses … it’s always a tradeoff between the benefits it provides for you and cost. You are right though that the tension is adjustable and that the lower back and knee section of the base can be adjusted for firmness. You can see a description of it here.

The other Berkeley Ergonomics dealers across the country that I’m aware of (not all of which may carry every model or use the same names) are …

http://scottjordan.com/ New York, NY. They are a member of this site.
http://www.urbannatural.com Paramus, NJ. They are also a member of this site.
Calgary, Edmonton & Sherwood Park Mattress Stores | Mattress & Sleep Co. The only dealer in Canada and will ship across the country. They are also a member of this site.
http://www.flybynight.com/ Northampton, MA
http://sc41.com/ Soquel, CA
http://designsleep.com/ Yellow springs, OH
http://www.sleepdesign.com/ Folsom, CA
http://www.sovn.com Dallas, TX
http://www.ergobedroom.com/ Las Vegas, NV and http://www.ergocomfort.com/ Laguna Niguel, Newport Beach, CA
http://goodnightbeds.com/ San Pedro, Redondo Beach, CA
http://www.scottsdalebedrooms.com/ Scottsdale, AZ
http://www.theorganicbedroom.com/ Raleigh, NC
http://www.naturalmattressmatters.com/ Johns Creek, GA
http://www.berkeleyergo.com/store-locator.html Will ship across the US for those that don’t have a store near them.

I think that outside of Sovn that most of these are in the same “ballpark” although there are some differences.

This post talks a bit about Sovn and my conversation about them with the BE main store.

From your experience with SavvyRest and others it seems that you may do better with an innerspring/latex hybrid rather than all latex (and you certainly wouldn’t be alone in this) unless of course one of the other all latex mattresses you tried compares well to the BE. How did some of the others compare in a “price no object” comparison with the BE or is it the clear leader out of what you’ve tested?

I put up a somewhat “hidden” paypal donation button here a little while ago as a result of several requests and while it’s in no way “necessary” … I’m very grateful for the thought … thank you!

Phoenix

How did some of the others compare in a “price no object” comparison with the BE or is it the clear leader out of what you’ve tested?

Dear Phoenix,

To answer your question, if I were going to rank my choices based on my field testing so far, with price being out of the equation, Here is my ranking: (I considered all of these to be “safe” for me)

3rd place: Savvy Rest–While pretty comfortable, I was not overly impressed with the cover’s texture and feel–it seems to be a woven fabric that was not extremely tight. It did not seem poorly constructed–that wasn’t the issue. It was more that made the woven fabric made it hard for me to turn over when I was testing it. While you would not feel the cover so much once you had sheets on the bed, I couldn’t quite get past this in my testing in Austin or Dallas. We even asked to try it with a sheet in Dallas, but none were available. In addition, never could feel like I got the perfect combination of layers. I worry that if I went this route I could go crazy trying to get it right. By the way, this was my one my husband liked the best with the topper over the soft, med, firm dunlop.

2nd Place tie: OMI Organicpedic Flora Nouveau and Suite Sleep Vesta: Both were very nice overall

Flora Nouveau was absolutely gorgeous in terms of craftsmanship and materials, but my initial impression was that it was a tad bit too hard for me in my recollection. If I were to purchase this mattress, I might need to use a topper. If I were to go back and try this again, I would be checking to see if my initial reaction about it being a bit too hard was duplicated in the second round. Beautiful though. I am an artist and these craftsmanship issues stand our for me.

Suite Sleep Vesta was very surprisingly very comfortable, even though my initial impression was based on first feel that it would be too soft. Once I laid on it I found it to be very supportive and soft at the same time. The questions that keep coming into my mind are about the cover “mushrooming” over the foundation, and the fact that the woman Angela who I believe is the owner of Suite Sleep, who happened to be in Austin representing the company that day, told me that the version I was trying was marked “firm” and that in her opinion is was really supposed to be “medium.” I was not entirely comfortable with this level of subjectivity–even thoug perhaps that really is the reality of it. If you try a mattress in the store and the mattress you get has a bigger chance of not being the same as what you tried, then you may not end up with what you thought you were getting. I was not comfortable with taking this chance. I was impressed with Suite Sleep’s quality overall and Angela’s dedication to providing a safe and pure product.

1st place winner: I Willlow C innerspring/latex at Sovn with soft talalay! I just couldn’t find anything that was “wrong” with it. There was nothing in the back of my mind that made me question this mattress except whether or not I really liked it better with the flexible slats or without. The fact that it was my husband’s first choice of the Sovn mattresses was an added bonus. It was very well crafted like the OMI and Suite Sleep. The materials seemed safe and very cozy. In my first testing on Sat. It seemed soft, yet supportive, and comfortably familiar–perhaps because of the innersprings which is what I have slept on for all of my 51 years. That is why I am leaning towards this choice so far. I just don’t have anything in the back of my mind that is bugging me about it.

I still am not perfectly sure about the choice of foundation, but my recollection is the slats really did feel better for me. I have read Sleepless in Dallas’ posts and hope that I hear back from her now that she got it right. I am also wanting to understand what made her move away from the flexible slats.

I am going to go back for a second extended test this week to see whether I still feel the same way the second time. I figure it is worth driving the 100 miles one more time to make sure. Of course, price is an issue and that is also what I am looking at now that I think I may have found “the one.” I really would like to buy it at Sovn as our customer service was excellent, but I am not in a position to turn over $600 or so more dollars more just to validate and support that. I am going to bring this issue up when I return to the store later this week.

Thanks for the info. regarding the other companies that have the Berkeley Ergonomics mattresses. I am going to explore the price issue. Thanks also for all of your feedback overall.

Regards,

Lisa

Hi lmcgehee,

I can certainly understand this. For most people with a wider range of tolerance or less sensitivity in terms of pressure relief or alignment then “average” layering usually works out very well but for those few that have a narrower range and are more sensitive to smaller changes then “playing with layers” can certainly be frustrating because the process can sometimes be quite counter-intuitive to get to the best possible balance of pressure relief and support along with the right “feel”. In these cases … it’s usually best to get as close as possible with local testing and if you are close enough … then fine tuning with mattress protectors or thin toppers can bring you to your ideal without having to exchange layers.

I also think that the OMI mattresses are beautifully constructed and use very thick and high quality ticking/quilting materials although as you mention they are also sold at a premium price.

As you mention this is the reality of it and when words like “soft/medium/firm” are used by a manufacturer they are very subjective and general. The “actual” firmness of a mattress is dependent on the person and what one person perceives as “too firm” another will perceive as “too soft”. Some of this has to do with different body types (firmer materials feel softer for heavier weights) and sleeping positions (side sleepers generally need softer/thicker top layers than back or stomach sleepers and may feel that a mattress that felt soft to a back sleeper was too firm for them) and with the types of materials used but some of it as well simply has to do with how different people have different perceptions of the same thing and it can also depend on what they use as a “reference point” (the softness/firmness of what they are used to). I think that she was probably talking about the model itself (rather than the specific mattress you were testing). You would find this kind of disagreement with almost any manufacturer who is using “averages” to describe their mattress and various different reps (or even owners) who may have their own opinions about how “accurate” the assigned rating really is. This would certainly not be unique to Suite Sleep. Subjective terms like soft/medium/firm are really open to each person’s individual interpretation.

I think that if you did order this mattress that the mattress you received would be the same as what was in the store and her “disagreement” was probably with the rating of the model itself rather than the specific one you tested (although I could be wrong here).

The mushrooming would be due to the nature of latex itself (it is very flexible, elastic, and flexes more “3 dimensionally” than polyfoam or innersprings) along with a combination of the layering softness of the mattress and the type and “stretchiness” of the cover they used. A more stretchy cover that doesn’t “hold” the shape of the latex as well can be softer and this would probably be more evident when you were either sitting on the edge or sleeping closer to the edge. It wouldn’t concern me though unless it was for aesthetic reasons.

Well it seems clear to me that this is the one that your body (and mind) has told you is the most suitable (and as you say “familiar” for you). It also helps that you and your husband like the same version even though they do offer a side to side split.

You can see some of the discussion we had about this in post #50 here and several of the posts that followed.

I hope you have success with this because they have been quite resistant to price matching in the past. Perhaps because you are not the first to bring the issue up your efforts towards a “matching” price reduction will be more successful.

I hope you let us know how it goes :slight_smile:

Phoenix

This is Angela Owen the owner of Suite Sleep and I am a veteran in the organic mattress industry which is a relatively young industry. It was a great pleasure to meet Lisa in Austin and I appreciate having the privilege of showing off our Suite Vesta Organic Mattress. I wanted to clarify a couple of things on our mattress to make sure no one is confused about the design and firmness issues being discussed.

First, the “mushrooming” is due to the fact that we use a European design zippered cover that is quite different from a tape-edged construction. All manufacturers that feature a zipper will have more stretching than when using a tight taped construction. This is because when a tape-edge machine is used to actually assemble the mattress and no zipper is used, the operator pulls the sides and top panels very tightly together creating a solid boxed tight seal around the mattress. In fact first the top panel is typically glued to the foam to hold it down firmly and the top will have a flange inside that is stapled tightly to the side of the foam before stitching it closed. When using a zipper, a seamstress will sew the cover based on dimensions and the cover is put on around the foam and is NOT glued or stapled to hold it together. All zippered covers will have some bulge for this reason. The European “waterfall” edge is more prone to this because it doesn’t have the visual line of a taped edge border on the top or bottom. We chose this type of cover because if offers a clean line Euro look that we find at Suite Sleep more pleasing and differentiates our brand. The second thing to take into consideration is that we use a stretch knit both on the top fabric and on the under-quilt to let the sleeper take advantage of maximum pressure point relief from the latex.

The question of latex firmness is a valid one. Dunlop latex is not made in the same way as Talalay and some settling of solids can occur while it is baking. All latex is made in a 6" thickness. For this reason when we use 2" and 4" slices of a 6" core the bottom 2" of a medium density latex or (75D) may have a firmer ILD than the top 2" - less solids more air = softer cores. Typically we will go through our latex when we receive it and make sure that the densities that are labeled truly match the feel we are identifying as Firm, Medium, or Soft. It is a difficult task when using sliced dunlop latex. Occasionally when we visit our retailers, we find that what the manufacturer of the latex labeled it doesn’t truly represent what we are selling as firm medium and soft and we will replace it with a new core that is more representative of what the customer will receive. In the case of Wildflower, I felt that the 2 cores in the bed were so similar, that the firm core was not a good representation of our current “firm” latex here at our factory. Therefore, I suggested that we go ahead and call it a Medium and if she ordered it that way it would feel the same as what she tried in the store. It is important to note that ILD and Density (D) are 2 very different measurements. The ILD is determined at the manufacturing facility of the latex (Sri Lanka for ours) for the 6" core. For dunlop it varies slightly throughout the core and therefore a range is given. Once the latex is sliced to smaller thicknesses it is impossible to get a truly accurate “new” reading for the thinner piece. This makes our work tricky and we do our best to make sure that what we are calling FIRM, MEDIUM, or SOFT is as consistent as possible.

I hope this helps and best of luck in your quest.

Angela Owen
The Sleep Diva
Suite Sleep, Inc.

After going back to the Sovn store in Dallas for a second visit in early November, I confirmed, after laying in it for over an hour, that the combination innerspring/latex Willow C mattress was definitely feeling very good for me. I want to mention that the fact that I could go into that store and feel comfortable to lay there for so long without feeling any sales pressure was really nice!

When I brought up the issue of the fact that Sovn’s pricing is higher than other Berkeley Ergonomics retailers in the country, I did receive acknowledgement of this fact and a reminder of the benefits of working with a local retailer. (Of course, I was keenly aware of these benefits since the first Simmons “luxury” mattress that I purchased in Sept.–the one that I am chemically sensitive to-- could not be returned because I purchased it online from out of state. I am still trying to sell that mattress set!) I was also reminded that having the mattress shipped from another Berkeley Ergonomics retailer reduced the price differences, which is true as well. In the end, the gentlelman told me that he could not reduce the price of the mattress set, but did add in some extras like a mattress protector and latex pillow.

After returning back to my doctor and getting a prescription, I purchased the mattress with the flexible slats at Sovn right before Thanksgiving. Having the prescription because of my chemical sensitivity, did save me paying the tax on the mattress so that was some consolation. I received word this week that, as of yesterday, my new mattress set is on it’s way and will be here sometime in the next week or two. I am very excited as I have been sleeping on an improvised pallet on the floor for over 10 weeks!

Phoenix, thank you for all of your help and all of the information that you have provided on this site. It has been very helpful. I tried to go an make a donation to your website using the link you had provided and I cannot get it to change from Canadian dollars to American dollars. Please advise as to how to overcome this. I will update when I receive the mattress and have had an opportunity to sleep on it.

Hi lmcgehee,

Congratulations on our new mattress :slight_smile:

Like you I find it somewhat unfortunate that they are charging more than other Berkeley Ergonomic dealers across the country (which would have similar shipping costs for example in Ohio or New York) but also like you I believe there is “value” in buying a mattress locally where you have actually tested it in person. The other BE dealers however have similar levels of service and are also a local purchase with the same “local” benefits so in an apples to apples comparison they would have the same benefits except they would be less costly. His point would be more valid in a comparison between an online merchant and a local merchant but not so much when comparing different local merchants … especially when the mattress is the same.

On the other side of the coin … it’s a very nice mattress and over time the value of how well you sleep will become much more important than how much you initially paid :slight_smile:

Waiting is sometimes the hardest part of all and it will be great when it finally arrives and you can sleep on it!

Thanks for bring this to my attention. I don’t know how I managed to do this and it just goes to show that the webmaster part of my job is not my forte. I’ve added a second button so there is one with both currencies.

I’m looking forward to hearing your feedback when you’ve had the chance to sleep on it for a while.

Phoenix

Dear Phoenix,

 We received our Berkeley Ergonomics mattress about a month ago. As mentioned previously, we purchased the I Willow C which is the firmer dual-level honeycombed pocket coils with a 2" layer of soft latex on top. The mattress is beautifully constructed and we are using it with the flexible slat foundation. It is definitely very "clean" and chemical free which was the biggest consideration for me, given my previous chemical sensitivity. The delivery process was excellent. I also received a latex 1.5 medium "oxygen" pillow at the same time as the mattress.
 What my husband and I both noticed about this mattress right away, are still noticing now, is that our mattress seems substantially firmer that the showroom mattress. Sovn said that this is common and that there is a break in period of a few weeks during which you body and the mattress become acclimated to one another. They also recommend looser sheets and their stretch mattress cover, both of which we are using. We have not noticed any "softening" of the mattress in the past month. In fact, it seems even harder. I opened up the mattress and verified with Sovn that I received the correct configuration of coils and latex, so I know that is not the problem. I also checked the slat settings to make sure they were the same as the showroom and they are, so there is no issue there.

 My questions regarding the difference in firmness are these:

What could account for the mattress feeling firmer?
Could it be that the latex on our mattress is softer than what is in the store and is allowing us to feel the firm coils more?[/li]
Could the latex actually have softened from sleeping on it and is allowing us to feel more of the firm coils?[/li]
Does latex “soften” over time and use?[/li]
Could it be that the firm coils actually will loosen up and feel softer over time? Do coils do this?[/li]

 While our mattress while firmer, is not totally uncomfortable. Actually the first few weeks it felt pretty good, even though it seems a little hard (and maybe even getting harder as the weeks go on?) Of course, we had been sleeping on the floor for 10 weeks so anything would feel better than that! What has happened, though, is that I have been having increasing problems with my neck. 
At first I thought is was because the new latex pillow was too high and perhaps too firm, so I went back to Sovn and tried a 1.0 soft latex pillow (softer and not as high) on the I Willow C in the store. When I was back in the store, I did confirm my impression that the showroom model of the bed is really significantly less firm than what we have at home. The softer pillow felt absolutely great on the showroom bed, so I went home thinking that this was the answer to my neck problems. Unfortunately, this new pillow was even worse--I could hardly move my neck without terrible pain the next day! I think since our mattress at home is harder, my head sunk down too low and bent my neck even further. I was so frustrated about it that, in desperation, I just got the original (firmer and higher) latex pillow back, enen though that one is not right either. 
 For the past week, I have been trying a different pillow every night without success or relief from pain. My husband took a picture of me lying on the bed with the pillow and we both noticed in the photo that my spine is angling up from the waist so that my shoulders are not sinking in. Isn't proper alignment going to be with one's spine completely horizontal?
 I am starting to think that my shoulders are getting pushed against the hardness of the mattress and scrunching up and that is causing the pain in the neck. I have not had any numbness in my shoulders, but am thinking is that if my shoulders sunk down into the mattress more, then that might relieve the neckpain which is on the sides of my neck behind my ears and between my shoulder blades.
 When I mentioned this to Sovn, they told me two things: First, that pain in the neck is usually a pillow issue, and second, I could try adjusting the slats for my legs to allow them to drop down more, and that in turn would lift my shoulders. I tried adjusting that slats last night and I think it did help a little with the shoulders, but it also changed my hips and created more pressure on them which I found uncomfortable. I did not need this since my hips were not having any issues. At this point, I think am going to put the slats back where they were at the preset settings and move on to trying other things.

 The first thing I am going to try is adding another latex layer. We have a 2" soft latex topper in storage and we are going to get that out and put it on top of the bed to try it. Do you think that the effect of adding an additional 2" of soft latex on top will lessen the pressure on my shoulders without changing the support on my hips?
 Since Sovn thinks the neck issue is from the wrong pillow, I am also going to order all 4 options of the latex Z pillow by Malouf. I am going to try these because they are $50. (instead of $140. for the oxygen pillow) and the Z pillows can be returned for a full refund. If I purchased another Oxygen pillow, and if it was not right, I would have to a pay a 20% restocking fee. You are only allowed one comfort exchange try with the Oxygen pillow or I would have done that already.
 The third thing we could try, if it comes to that, is changing out the mattress componenets. We are allowed to change the mattress components within 60 days of the delivery of the mattress. There are three options associated with that:
  1. Change the latex to firmer–My thinking is that changing the latex to firmer would only make the bed feel harder. Is that correct or would it work the opposite way and not allow you to feel as much of the hard coils?

  2. Change the coils to softer–My thinking is that the less firm coils offered in the Willow model would be too soft. We did not favor this in the showroom so I am really hesitant about this.

  3. Change the coils to softer and change the latex to firmer–I have no idea what this would feel like. Again this seems like a radical departure from what we liked in the showroom. What change could be anticipated here?

    The end of the story is this: I spent a lot of time both trips visiting and trying the beds. On my second visit, I spent at least an hour on the I Willow C bed in the store and it was so perfect! I am feelling a bit frustrated that after spending so much money our bed is firmer than we tried in the showroom.

Any insight that you can offer about the best way to solve the problem would be greatly appreciated!

Lisa

Hi lmcgehee,

There seems to be several interacting issues or at least possibilities happening here and this can be made more frustrating (or even aggravating) for those who are more sensitive to smaller variations in a mattress. Some people are fortunate and seem to be able to sleep on anything … while some people have more “exacting” needs and preferences. This is just the nature of the many differences between people and different bodies.

The odds are very low that any possible difference between your mattress and the one in the showroom has anything to do with the innerspring and the odds are much higher that if there is a difference between the two mattresses that it would be in the 2" latex layer. It’s quite possible that the ILD of your latex layer may be softer than the ILD of the latex in the store. If this is the case then you would be “going through” it more and this could mean that you would be feeling more of the firmness of the innerspring below the latex. This is one of those cases where a softer comfort layer can lead to a firmer feeling mattress.

All foam will soften with use but latex does this much less than other foams both initially and over the longer term. The showroom model is probably not brand new and would probably have softened to the degree it will initially so once you have slept on your mattress for a few weeks they should “match” in theory. The fact that they don’t seem to could be either because of an actual difference between the ILD of the latex or from some difference between your experience in the showroom and your experience over the course of the night. You have spent a great deal of time in the showroom and your mattress has probably gone through it’s initial softening so this may point to a different ILD in the comfort layer.

While it would be unusual that there was a significant difference in the ILD of the latex … natural Talalay latex is subject to a greater ILD variation than a blend (it’s more difficult to manufacture to exact tolerances) so this is a real possibility as well as the possibility that a layer that was incorrectly rated was somehow used. This is true with Dunlop as you experienced with Angela but it is also true to perhaps a slightly lesser degree with 100% natural Talalay.

I would also suggest that before spending a lot of money on pillows is that you solve the mattress issue first. While it’s true that neck issues are often connected to a pillow … the softness (or thickness) of the mattress comfort layer will change how much you sink in with your shoulders and can affect which pillow would be most appropriate. If you find the best pillow with your current configuration then it may no longer work as well with a different configuration. it’s also true that the combination of layers and components in the upper layers of your mattress may also be responsible for neck issues and I would try to solve this first. Neck issues can also be caused by sleeping positions which cause twisting of the head and neck in an effort to avoid pressure or from “half and half” sleeping positions (such as partly on your side and partly towards your stomach)

If the comfort layer really is softer than the store … then either a firmer layer (closer to the ILD of the mattress in the store) of a thicker comfort layer may solve the issue (both would isolate you a little more from the innerspring although in different ways). I would certainly try the topper you already have as a first step to see if it “points to” a potential solution.

Although the initial softening of latex is less than other types of foam … it is still there to a degree and the fact that your mattress appears to be getting slighty or subtly firmer as a result of this would also make sense.

So overall … the first thing I would do because it’s easily available is to try your topper to see what differences this may make.

The next thing I would do is to see if you can solve the issue of why your mattress appears to be different from the store model because your experience seems to indicate that this may not just be subjective impressions and differences between your showroom experience and your experience over the course of the night.

This deepens the mystery somewhat. If your shoulders were in alignment in the showroom model and this is only a phenomenon that is happening with your mattress at home … then it would seem to indicate that the comfort layers or at least your “critical zone” (the amount you sink into a mattress) is firmer than your ideal (rather than the other pointers that indicate it may be softer). It can be difficult to see “straight spinal alignment” on your side but this can often be evaluated by the profile of the upper part of your body and noticing if it matches the profile when you are standing straight with good alignment. In other words your shoulders and hips should be close to the same position relative to each other.

Overall though … and if I had to guess … I would guess that your comfort layer is a little on the soft side and that either some extra firmness (which would probably be closer to the store) or some extra thickness may be the direction I would try and since you have the latex topper anyway … that’s the first thing I would try.

I would also test any changes you make for at least a couple or a few nights because if you make changes faster than your body can “catch up” to then you may not be able to identify the result of a change nearly as accurately.

I have tried to mention most of the possibilities that may be involved so that you have a few things to focus on in your “detective work” to solve the mystery.

I certainly understand the frustration that can come from dealing with complex issues and perhaps most of all I would make sure that you work closely with Sovn. They will generally make more “standard” suggestions at first and this is valid because for most people these will solve most issues but if it becomes more clear that there may be other issues involved beyond just a break in or adjustment period they should also be able to help you through a process of elimination where less likely possibilities and things that are not connected to a normal break in period … including the possibility that there is a difference between the store model and your mattress or differences between your experience or sleep positions in the store and in your home … are also explored.

Phoenix

Dear Phoenix,

 Thank you so much for your well thought-out reply. I am very grateful for your feedback. I wanted to thank you for pointing out individual differences. My husband has been sleeping just fine. He is one of those lucky people who is less sensitive.
 As mentioned in my previous post, I have been having pain in my neck and especially between my shoulders since getting my new mattress and pillow. At first, I attributed this to the pillow, but as of now, I am quite sure that it has to do with the fact that my spine is out of alignment--that is: my hips are lower than my shoulders. My shoulders are higher than my hips and are also getting scrunched against the hardess of the mattress. 
 When I tried the soft 2" talalay latex topper on top of the mattress and slats in their preset settings, I noticed something interesting: it seems to accentuate the feeling that my hips were too low. It did lessen the pressure on my shoulders, but I still felt out of alignment--perhaps even more so. I am beginning to think that the problem might be that my hips are sinking in too much, and as mentioned before, and my shoulders not enough. 
 With this in mind, my next idea was that if my hips needed  to sink less to create better alignment, then maybe I would need to do one of these things to bring the hips up:
  1. Try the mattress on the floor without the slats (which I am assuming would be the similar feeling for a non-flexible base foundation like Sleepless in Dallas ended up getting) in the hopes of better alignment and reducing the scrunching of the shoulders

  2. Adjust the slats to raise the hips in the hopes of better alignment and reducing the scrunching of the shoulders

  3. Try a firmer layer of latex to support my hips more to create better alignment and reduce the scrunching of the shoulders.

    So I tried the mattress on the floor without the flexible slat base. I woke up feeling much less pain in my neck and shoulders and I attribute this to the better alignment that was created from my hips not sinking down so much. My hips and shoulders were much more even. The only problem was that it was so hard that it created pressure points on both my hips and my shoulders–especially the hips. So I thought I might be making progress here.
    Then I decided to put the 2" topper on top of the mattress on the floor to see whether this alieviated the pressure points. After sleeping on that, I noticed another interesting thing: I felt like the soft topper made me less aligned and actually made me feel more pain than just the mattress on the floor. It seems like that softness makes my hips sink down even more and throws my spine back out of alignment causing my shoulders and neck to be out as well.
    Now my question is this: Since the mattress on the floor is too hard by itself, but is good in terms of evening out my spine, would you think that a firmer latex layer might relieve the pressure points? It sounds kind of crazy to add firmness to something already hard, but I have a hunch it could work. What is your opinion about this in theory?
    The gentleman at Sovn who is working very cooperatively with me on this problem said that I can also try the slats set so that the hips don’t sink so much and try a pillow that is not so thick. He suggested I do this before trying it on the floor but at the time I had not heard back from him so I tried the floor option first.
    I intend to try adjusting the slats again, maybe after I give the floor another night or two, but I am taking your advice to try to address the mattress first before moving onto the pillow. The gentleman at Sovn also said that I could change the inner spring base to the softer version which I believe uses coils made from a lesser gauge of wire. He said “The I-Willow A possesses a slightly less supportive base coil which tends to make the mattress feel less firm.” What effect do you think that would have? I am thinking that it would exaccerabate the problem by allowing my hips to sink down even further. Would that in theory be correct?

Thanks in advance for any feedback you might be able to provide.

Sincerely,

Lisa

The flexible slat base of the I Willow (aka Alpine) mattress comes with the slats preset to what works best for most people.

Hi lmcgehee,

The odds of this are quite high and the typical “fix” for an issue like this would be to add some extra thickness and softness to your comfort layers so that your lighter wider shoulders could sink in a little deeper. Of course this would apply to side sleeping and not to other positions. The best odds are always to work underneath the general area that has the problem and the symptoms and the goal is to allow for more even sinking in without one area sinking too far and another not enough.

Generally the best odds of fine tuning are to work in the area of the symptoms. In most cases the odds are much lower of “fixing” an issue with the shoulders by correcting something under the hips or pelvis. Of course as any doctor who deals with back issues can tell you … the causes behind them can be very complex and there are many cases of “referred pain” where changing something in an area that is different from the area of the symptoms can make significant improvements … but these have lower odds of success … unless you are in the group where the actual cause is in the lower probability adjustments. In these cases … “theory at a distance” is not so helpful (just like a doctor or health professional may give you some general suggestions but then if they don’t work will need to examine you in person) and your own experimentation and intuition where your body tells you that what you are doing is making a positive difference will be the most accurate way to know what will help. I should also mention that the specific “symptoms” you are having are the most important thing to pay attention to and things like “the feeling that my hips are too low” is not an actual symptom and may actually cause more confusion than they may help. Sometimes the things that need to be adjusted are counterintuitive to sombody that doesn’t have lots of experience in mattess layering and design and a change that can actually help may “feel like” it’s going in the wrong direction sometimes even though there are no actual symptoms of pain or discomfort to indicate this.

Another good option you have would be to take a few “naps” on various mattresses at Sovn (first choice) or even some local stores that you think may give you a good indication of what may help (say 1/2 hour or an hour) and listen to the more subtle cues of your body that come from spending a little longer on a mattress than you typically would spend in testing. In many cases a local store may even be willing to help you with their “eyeballs” and feedback either because they want to provide good after sale service (if you purchased the mattress there) or if you didn’t buy the mattress there just to generate some goodwill and a possible future referral even though they know they won’t be making a sale for now.

If you find a mattress that seems to correct the issues you are having … then comparing it to the mattress you have can provide some valuable clues to what may be happening and what can be done to “fix” it.

[quote]1. Try the mattress on the floor without the slats (which I am assuming would be the similar feeling for a non-flexible base foundation like Sleepless in Dallas ended up getting) in the hopes of better alignment and reducing the scrunching of the shoulders
2. Adjust the slats to raise the hips in the hopes of better alignment and reducing the scrunching of the shoulders
3. Try a firmer layer of latex to support my hips more to create better alignment and reduce the scrunching of the shoulders.[/quote]

Option 1 may help if your slats are too soft under your lumbar area. Option 2 may have the best odds because if you could make the slats under the pelvis/lumbar firmer (if they weren’t already) than the other areas of the foundation then you may be able to add some extra thickness and softness under the shoulder area to solve the issues there. This would 'bring up" the lumbar area and “allow” the shoulders to sink in more deeply at the same time. Option 3 would likely be the least effective because you would be making the comfort layer under the shoulder firmer when it may already be too firm and this could create an even worse issue if the shoulders need to sink in more. Of course your own personal experience will say more than any theory.

It would be important to know the setting of your slats before you put the mattress on the floor and the relative firmness of each area because if they were firmer under your lumbar/pelvis before and then you put the mattress on the floor it would actually allow your pelvis/lumbar to sink in more … relative to your shoulders … not less. It’s always important to know exactly what is changing in each different combination both in terms of the firmer and softer areas of the sleeping system and the specific symptoms that are produced or lessened with each change. What testing on the floor may be “pointing to” will depend on the relative firmness levels of the slats before you put the mattress on the floor.

It’s also important to be very specific about the type and location of any symptoms with each change (giving each change at least a few days to produce a pattern). Your body doesn’t think about the cause of a change in other words … it just feels what it feels. Describing what it feels with each combination (not “feels like”) is the first step. Looking at any changes you have made to see if they can explain any changes in what your body feels (again not what it “feels like”) and why is the second step.

As I mentioned this would likely be my first suggestion as well and this would also allow some “room” for adding some softness under the shoulders if it was necessary. I would put a lot of weight in the suggestions they make (much more than anything I could offer on a forum) … especially if they have seen you lying on the mattress but also because they have much more and more specific experience with their own mattresses than I do.

Using this as a pointer and gaining any information about what it may be telling you would depend on what was different between the settings of the slatted foundation before and and the floor (which would have the same firmness in every area under the mattress). Describing a mattress as “too hard” doesn’t provide enough specific information because it depends on which layer or component is too hard or soft and which specific area is too hard or soft. In other words … identifying which component or layer is too firm or too soft and in which area it is too firm or soft (and the specific symptoms that appear to validate this) is what you are looking for.

Before doing any more speculating … I would try to establish a baseline and try to identify the cause of what is happening so far. Until there is more clarity about the “why behind the what” and more information about the settings that you started with and the specific direction of the direction of the changes you made when you put the mattress on the floor, more speculation would probably cause more confusion than it would help.

I should clarify as well … have you been working with Sovn in the store at all so they can give you real time feedback based on what they can see as you try different possibilities or just over the phone?

Some “nap” time with their help and guidance may be the most effective direction of all.

Phoenix

Dear Phoenix,

Thank you for your reply. As it works out, I will be going to the Dallas area today for one of my son’s sporting events and I am going to go to the Sovn store to get help. Since I live about 2 hours away, I had not been able to go there in person. I really appreciate all of your insights and assistance in sorting through this. I am definitely so confused about how to help myself right now and I am losing any sense of perspective–probably due to poor sleep! Your comments are very helpful. I will let you know how it works out.

Sincerely,

Lisa

Hi lmcgehee,

I know that traveling for 2 hours just to test various options can be a challenge but I think your time there would be well worth it because now that you have a sense of the “feel” that leads to some of your issues you will be able to test some of the combinations there that may help you move things in the right direction. You will also have some good “in person” guidance that can use their experience to help you in person.

In general I would tend to focus on specific symptoms that you are experiencing (things like pain, tension, discomfort in specific areas of the body and the sleeping positions that they tend to happen) rather than ideas about the reasons that may be behind them (which is where confusion can start to creep in because sometimes this can be counter-intuitive). This way you can do the “reporting” and “describing” and then they can do the “speculating” or “theorizing” about what may help correct things.

It can take a bit of trial and error when your situation is more complex or difficult but it will be worth it in the end and the good news is that you have many options available to fine tune your “sleeping system”.

Of course I’m also interested (and there are likely other forum members who will be as well) in hearing about any of the specific changes you make and the results of each and of course I’ll be happy to make comments along the way until you reach as close as is possible to your “ideal”.

Phoenix

Dear Phoenix,

I returned to Sovn last weekend and I was very pleased with the customer service. First, we addressed the pillow issue and I was sent home with another pillow option to try. This pillow is still medium firmness, but a bit lower than the previous one that I had tried. The idea was that the correct pillow would alleviate some of the pain in the neck and between the shoulders that I have been feellng. While I was there, I verified that our mattress is indeed quite a bit firmer than the showroom one. This is apparently attributed to the fact that the cover has stretched over the few years that the showroom mattress has been on display, making it have a softer feel. My alignment was good on the showroom model, but as I said, it is not the same at home.

While I was there I took a nap on the I Willow A (aka Alpine) and was pleasantly surprised that “softer” coils did not mean a saggy mattress. I was told that my alignment was good on the Willow A version as well, using the pillow that was recommended. I have the option to switch to the innersprings that are “softer,” as part of the comfort exchange. How I understand it is that the the taller level of coils in the softer mattress are of a wire gauge that is less thick than those of the firmer Willow/Alpine. This makes the mattress feel softer. The coil count and dimensions of both configurations are the same. The 2" layer of soft latex I have right now also would not change. I have been assured that there is no difference in durability between the firmer and softer versions of the I Willow innerspring.

After spending the past 5 nights sleeping on our I Willow C mattress with the medium pillow,(on the slats back to the preset configuration), I can say that it is definitely better in terms of less neck/shoulder pain, but things are still not perfect. I am still feeling like my shoulders do not "sink "in enough. We are on day 50 of having this mattress (with a 60 day comfort exchange policy) and I am strongly leaning toward trading the firm innerspring for the “softer” innerspring in hopes that the softer springs will “give” more under my shoulder. It was hard to tell if it was that much better in the showroom because I don’t think that I relax the same way as I do when I am in a deep sleep. That being said, the I Willow A softer mattress definitely seemed very comfortable.

My question now is : Would you think having the innersprings with the less thick gauge wire would logically result in having more “give” under the shoulder?
Would you also guess that the softer innerspring is appropriate for someone who is 5’10" 148 lbs & side sleeper and 5"11" 160 lbs for my husband the stomach and side sleeper?
Looking toward the future, as I will be living through the rest of my 50’s and into my 60’s (God willing) with this mattress, would you think that as one ages a “softer” mattress might be a better choice in the long run, or is there no correlation with middle age and mattress firmness?

As always, your response and opinion are greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,

Lisa

Hi lmcgehee,

Yes … definitely. The good news is also that once the softer part of the innerspring reaches the firmer coils that support is maintained. It’s like having a little extra thickness for the comfort layer which it sounds like you may do well with.

Based on your feedback from the showroom and on your relatively lighter weights (even though i don’t know the specifics of the gauge and even then would really need to see you on the mattress anyway because weight distribution and body shape plays a big role here) … I would say “in theory” yes. The only potential “risk” I see would be for your husbands stomach sleeping but again this would need to be seen to know (and they seem to know what to look for).

This depends a lot on “how” someone ages and on the 'type" of softness you mean. Softness can refer to the surface or “hand” feel of a mattress, to the comfort layers and their ability to provide good pressure relief, or to the support of a mattress which “stops” the heavier parts of the body from traveling down too far into the mattress.

It would be reasonable to expect that for many people their pressure relief needs (the upper layers of the mattress) would move towards softer to compensate for the lower pressure that it may take to compress the capillaries in the body surface with the loss of muscle tone and other changes in the body. On the other hand if the body shape also changes (weight goes up or down and weight distribution changes) this may also lead to other changes in support needs as well to maintain good neutral alignment with a different body shape and weight distribution pressing down on the deeper layers (the innerspring) of the mattress. If the body weight and shape are maintained to a reasonable degree … support needs probably won’t change as much.

Phoenix

Need to find chemical free mattress in Maryland
You can’t imagine (actually, with your experience you probably can)what a relief it is to discover I’m not nuts, and that I felt a lot more than nausea with that pillow. But I can see it’s going to take a lot of work to sort this all out. But the information is here.

Our queen bed is probably 25 years old and not feeling comfortable anymore. Once I wake up I get stiff and uncomfortable so I end up having to get up. My husband weighs about 180 and I weigh 230. My husband is a great sleeper, but I often wake up when he gets up during the night. All that is minor compared to the chemical sensitivity part. It didn’t occur to me that I might be sensitive to
something in beds other than memory foam. But more and more chemicals are affecting me so I want to avoid all that I can including that flame retardant. Working with 4 different doctors so no problem with prescription.

We live near Annapolis and about 20 miles from Baltimore. I’m hoping you know of some places we can go to look and test once I get more of solid understanding of the possible combinations.
This is a fantastic service and thank you so much.
Wheezer

Hi wheezer,

The first goal is of course some education (to offset the general misinformation that you will encounter) and then the next goal is to connect with better retailers or manufacturers in your area. In some areas the choices for mattresses that are “safe” by more critical standards are more limited or not great value and then an online purchase from a manufacturer where you have the ability to make changes after the purchase can make sense as well. Post #21 here has some of the best options I’m aware of if this is the direction you end up choosing.

Some of the better options and possibilities I know of in the Baltimore area are in post #2 here.

And no … you’re not “nuts” … but you do have a difficult challenge that others don’t have to face (just like some people have to avoid bee or wasp stings because they can be life threatening and others just take reasonable precautions and others yet don’t seem to think about it at all).

So at least you have some good sources of information and if you have questions along the way feel free to post them here. With complex and more “difficult” subjects … then one step at a time until the pieces start falling into place is usually the “best” way to go.

Phoenix

PS: I switched this reply from the other thread with the same post (and removed the links which I realized I had already given you).

Hi wheezer,

I switched my original reply here to your other thread here that had the same post.

Phoenix

Just wanted to give you an update on how things worked out with my quest for mattress comfort: I ended up doing a comfort exchange for the I Willow A (Aka Alpine A)“softer innersprings.” By the time that they were delivered, however, I had begun to feel that the mattress that I already had really did feel softer and more broken in. The literature and website said that this would only take a month or two, but it took a little longer for me. Anyway, after trying the softer innersprings and sleeping on them for a week, I found that the firmer Willow C was definitely the better option for me, so we simply put the Willow C coils back in and packed up the softer coil unit and took it back to Dallas. I am very glad I had to option to know for sure what the best choice is since we are hoping to use this mattress for many years to come. Now I know for sure that I have the best choice for me.

 I wanted to complement Gerardo and April at Sovn for their excellent customer service and grace in helping me in so many ways. First to switch out my oxygen pillow until we got it right. I am no longer having any neck or shoulder pain. Second, to allow me to get the softer innersprings and then graciously taking them back when they did not work out. Incidently, Gerardo had told me more than once that my mattress would feel softer over time. He definitely knew what he was talking about! I just did not have the same confidence that he had.

  Overall, this journey has been a really big learning experience for me. I am very happy with my purchase and grateful that I have a nice non toxic mattress that is a pleasure to get into each night. I would definitely go back to Sovn again, despite the fact that they are more expensive than some of the other Berkeley Ergonomic dealers. The customer service does make all the difference. 

Thanks again for all of your help in answering my questions and sorting through the issues. I really appreciate it.

Hi lmcgehee,

Thanks for bringing us up to date … and that’s great news :slight_smile:

Sometimes the breaking and adjustment period can take a little longer … and this is particularly try with higher quality materials. Fine tuning can also be challenging sometimes because it can involve several separate issues affecting you simultaneously (such as the mattress layers and components and a pillow).

As you mentioned though … all of this really does to go to show the “value” of good service and good guidance.

Thanks again for the feedback.

Phoenix