New Bed Needed - Thinking Latex

[wacomme]

My wife and I have had our queen-sized Tempurpedic mattress for 15-16 years. The mattress is getting lumpy (high down the center) and soft where we sleep. And while not ideal, we often eat dinner in bed and watch tv, as well as sleep - the bed is multi-functional. I’m mostly a back and occasional side sleeper. I’m 6’ and 155 lbs. I have spinal degeneration and stenosis - a sore lower back; however, I race road bikes and try to keep my back in shape with yoga and core work. My wife is 5’8" and about 200 lbs (not exactly sure; she won’t tell me her weight). She’s a side sleeper. I’m 53 years old and my wife is 65 years old.

My wife likes a soft mattress and wants the Tempurpedic Cloud Luxe Breeze. I feel the mattress is way too soft and doesn’t support my back. The Rhapsody and Contour lines are more to my liking, but evening those models seem to lack adequate lower back support. All-in-all, in really don’t want to buy another Tempurpedic mattress. I don’t fell they provide the lower back support I need.

And so, through online research I’ve learned about latex mattresses, and latex toppers. I’m heading to Denver tomorrow to try them. My biggest concern is trying to convince to wife to consider latex (mattress and/or topper). She’s pretty much sold on Tempurpedic. She’s against mail order (she wants to try what she buys, and even with an exchange policy, she’s unlikely to exchange a mattress unless the mattress is absolutely horrible). I’m also concerned that she wants soft and I want a much more firm mattress.

The Mattress Expert suggested I buy a 3" soft latex topper, flip our current Tempurpedic over and try it that way. Worse case scenario is the we could use the topper on top of an old “firm” spring mattress in the spare bedroom. But that’s a $500 expense if I buy the topper from him with no return or exchange policy. Is this a good suggestion? And the suggestion was 3", not 2" (soft - though not sure if that’s N1 or N2.

And, I am going on the assumption that latex will provide the lower back support I need, that latex is not like Tempurpedic foam and will actually support my back.

So, if I like the feel of latex when I try out beds and toppers tomorrow, where I go from there? Should I go for the topper suggestion by The Mattress Expert (and if so, which topper - and should the topper be covered?), or consider buying a latex mattress? The Mattress Expert didn’t see any added benefit of a latex mattress over using a latex topper over an inverted Tempurpedic and/or on a firm spring mattress.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be most appreciated.

Michael

[phoenix]

Hi wacomme,

Some of the answers to your questions are a little more complex than you may realize and while a topper (latex or otherwise) on an upside down Tempurpedic may work for you … it also may not depending on many variables.

The Mattress Expert suggested I buy a 3" soft latex topper, flip our current Tempurpedic over and try it that way. Worse case scenario is the we could use the topper on top of an old “firm” spring mattress in the spare bedroom. But that’s a $500 expense if I buy the topper from him with no return or exchange policy. Is this a good suggestion? And the suggestion was 3", not 2" (soft - though not sure if that’s N1 or N2.

The first rule of mattresses and sleeping systems (including mattress/topper combinations) is that only your own personal testing or sleeping experience will tell you for certain whether it is a good match for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) and there are too many unknowns and variables involved for anyone to be able to predict for certain whether a mattress or mattress/topper combination will be a good match for you based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or "theory at a distance (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here).

If you can’t test a mattress/topper in person then it’s always a good idea to make sure that you have good options available after a purchase so you can make any firmness changes that may be necessary for either you or your wife if your choice doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for because choosing a topper that is a good match for both of you on a specific mattress (the mattress under a topper will affect which topper thickness and firmness would be best) can sometimes be as uncertain as choosing a suitable mattress in the first place (see post #2 here). Of course you would already have the “base mattress” to go under the topper so the tradeoff for the additional risk would be the lower cost compared to buying a completely new mattress.

It also possible that your needs and preferences are different enough that a topper (or a mattress) that works well for one of you may not work nearly as well for the other. There is some information in the first part of post #2 here that may be helpful for couples that have very different body types or sleeping positions and have very different needs or preferences but of course your own testing (with both of you on the mattress) will always be the most reliable way to know whether any specific mattress is a good match for both of you in terms of PPP.

If your tempurpedic turned upside down has a firm and even sleeping surface and there are no soft spots or sagging (either visible or virtual) that are “coming through” from the top layers that are now on the bottom (particularly under the heavier areas of your body) then it could be a suitable choice for a topper and this could be a good way to extend the life of your mattress for a few years … again assuming that the mattress/topper combination is a good match for both of you in terms of PPP. Adding a topper to an upside down mattress is one of the suggestions in post #4 here that can sometimes help a mattress that is too soft or is sagging when there are no better options available or inside the budget.

And, I am going on the assumption that latex will provide the lower back support I need, that latex is not like Tempurpedic foam and will actually support my back.

This could be a risky assumption because whether a mattress is a good match for you depends on all the layers in a mattress or sleeping system and how they all interact together with your body type and sleeping positions … not just on the top layer. The type of material is not nearly as important in terms of PPP as the specific design of the mattress or sleeping system. The type of material is more of a preference choice than a “better/worse” choice and the design of a mattress or sleeping system and the firmness of all the layers is a much more important part of whether a mattress is a good “match” for you than the type of material that you may prefer. Post #2 here and post #4 here has more information about primary or “deep” support and secondary or “surface” support and their relationship to each other and to firmness and pressure relief and the “roles” of different layers in a mattress that may be helpful in clarifying how different layering combinations work better for some people and body types than for others.

So, if I like the feel of latex when I try out beds and toppers tomorrow, where I go from there? Should I go for the topper suggestion by The Mattress Expert (and if so, which topper - and should the topper be covered?), or consider buying a latex mattress? The Mattress Expert didn’t see any added benefit of a latex mattress over using a latex topper over an inverted Tempurpedic and/or on a firm spring mattress.

A latex topper on a firm mattress certainly wouldn’t be the same as an all latex mattress and would be closer to a latex/polyfoam hybrid. While the upper layers of a sleeping system will generally have the biggest effect on how a mattress feels when you first lie on it (depending on weight and sleeping position) … all the layers of a mattress will affect all the other layers and components to different degrees. There is more about how a latex/polyfoam hybrid compares to an all latex mattress in post #2 here. I would also keep in mind that there are hundreds of different latex/polyfoam hybrid combinations (or mattress/topper combinations) that will each be different from each other as well and that some may be a suitable choice and others may not be.

If you do decide to go in the direction of buying a topper to use on your upside down Tempurpedic then post #2 here and the topper guidelines it links to has more information that can help you choose the type, thickness, and firmness for a topper that has the best chance of success and also links to some of the better online topper sources I’m aware of that would be well worth considering both in terms of price and because some of them also have good return or exchange options that would lower the risks involved in choosing the most suitable topper.

A topper cover is also a good idea for any latex topper to protect the latex from handling (latex can tear easily) and from oxidation or from breaking down prematurely from exposure to substances that can harm it over the longer term (see post #12 here and the posts it links to).

Phoenix

[wacomme]

Phoenix,

Thank you for your thorough reply.

Yesterday I went to Sleep Nation and Urban Mattress in Denver. I spent most of my time at Sleep Nation. I briefly looked at Prana latex beds at Urban Mattress - seemed nice by pricey.

After trying most every bed and topper combo at Sleep Nation, I’m most interested in the Wazee St. bed. My wife would probably prefer the Wynkoop St. mattress (softer), but she wasn’t with me. However, she may think the Wazee is soft enough - that is if she likes the latex feel. I like it. It’s more bouncy that I expected, but it seems more supportive (for my lower back) than the Tempurpedic’s I’ve been trying. The salesman (I forgot his name) seemed knowledgeable and very helpful. He said the Wazee is made by LatexCo, and is a two layer (6", and 5" on top) progressive natural Talalay. He said the process is new, that the ILD progressively moves from more dense to less dense as one moves up through the layer (same process for both layers). He said that this process makes the bed less bouncy. The 1" polyfoam on the bottom of the mattress also aids in less bounce (though one can buy this mattress without the poly foam layer).

The new process sound interesting, but I haven’t heard of it. Is this the same as a continuous pour? And if so, isn’t this method more akin to Dunlop than Talalay? This “new process” confounds me and makes me a little leary - should I be? I didn’t a search for “wazee” on this forum and learned that one couple went through two Wazee mattresses before finding one that didn’t quickly sag. Other than that I can’t find much on the Wazee mattress.

I did try toppers on various mattresses, including an inverted memory foam mattress (the sales guy was very helpful). And while the topper was a pleasant experience, the “feel” wasn’t up to par with a new mattress itself. It felt that the topper was a temporary patch. And so, I think I’m more interested in finding a new mattress rather than adding a topper to our existing Tempurpedic mattress (inverted) or on top of a firm spring mattress. Though, at a later date, I may add a latex topper to the bed in our spare bedroom.

Being new to latex beds, I don’t think I want to order one online, though doing so would be a cheaper option. I think I want to try the bed I want to buy, and hopefully with an option to exchange it if the bed doesn’t work out. So, the next step is to try several beds. I’m mostly interested in all latex mattresses, and probably all natural Talalay. Perhaps this criteria is limiting, but I think I want to stay away from memory form and spring mattresses altogether (this all assumes that my wife likes the feel of latex). And I need to keep my wife out of the picture (her choosing) until I’ve selected a handful of mattresses for her to try.

I believe I’ve looked at what Sleep Nation has to offer and I like the Wazee mattress the best. Does the PPP with the Wazee fit me? I’m not sure. Will it fit my wife? I don’t know that either. Is it a good mattress? Will it not sag prematurely? Is is really 100% natural Talalay?

I’ll skip the Prana mattress (though comfortable). So where do I go next? I this Boulder, CO is my best option for the greatest number of stores with latex mattresses. I may need to play hooky from work one day and head to Boulder. I’m thinking about visiting the Foam Source in Boulder. There’s also Verlo, but I think their all latex mattress selection is limited. There’s also Haiku Designs and of course other Sleep Nation and Urban Mattress branch stores. And though expensive, The Natural Sleep Store in Denver may be worth a look.

Most likely, with all this looking and trying mattresses I’ll probably just get confused. But hopefully I’ll spot trends and narrow my selection. I don’t want to become too obsessed with this mattress search, and at some point I just need to choose and hope my wife likes at least one of my suggestions.

[phoenix]

Hi wacomme,

I briefly looked at Prana latex beds at Urban Mattress - seemed nice by pricey.

You can read more about the Pranasleep mattresses in post #3 here and in post #2 here and in post #3 here and in posts #1 and #2 here and a forum search on Prana (you can just click this) will also bring up more information and feedback about them as well. As you can see I would be very cautious here because of the thicker layers of lower quality/density materials they tend to use in the top layers of their mattress which could be a weak link in the mattress.

He said the Wazee is made by LatexCo, and is a two layer (6", and 5" on top) progressive natural Talalay. He said the process is new, that the ILD progressively moves from more dense to less dense as one moves up through the layer (same process for both layers). He said that this process makes the bed less bouncy. The 1" polyfoam on the bottom of the mattress also aids in less bounce (though one can buy this mattress without the poly foam layer).

The latex in the Wazee is 100% natural Talalay latex and I think your salesman may be a little confused (or perhaps you misunderstood). The Wazee uses multiple layers that that are different firmness levels so the mattress has a “progressive construction” which means that the softest layer is on the top and the deeper layers are progressively firmer

The Talalay that they use is made by Radium which is one of two manufacturers that make Talalay latex in the world (the other is Latex International) and is supplied by Latexco but they don’t make it. Neither one makes Talalay latex that uses a “new process” that becomes less dense as you go from the bottom to the top (although many Dunlop latex cores are denser on the bottom than on the top).

Does the PPP with the Wazee fit me? I’m not sure. Will it fit my wife? I don’t know that either. Is it a good mattress? Will it not sag prematurely? Is is really 100% natural Talalay?

The only reliable way to know whether any mattress is a good “match” for you in terms of PPP is based on your own testing and personal experience. There is more about the different ways to choose a suitable mattress that can help you identify and minimize the risks involved in each of them in post #2 here.

In terms of durability and the useful life of the mattress … latex is among the most durable materials in the industry and 100% natural Talalay made by Radium is a very high quality and durable material and there would be no weak links in the mattress. If it’s a good match for you in terms of PPP and it also compares well to your other “finalists” based on all the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you then it would certainly be well worth considering.

I should also mention that one of the previous comments on the forum about the Wazee indicated that it used 100% natural Dunlop latex but this was incorrect and it uses 100% natural Talalay.

I’ll skip the Prana mattress (though comfortable). So where do I go next? I this Boulder, CO is my best option for the greatest number of stores with latex mattresses. I may need to play hooky from work one day and head to Boulder. I’m thinking about visiting the Foam Source in Boulder. There’s also Verlo, but I think their all latex mattress selection is limited. There’s also Haiku Designs and of course other Sleep Nation and Urban Mattress branch stores. And though expensive, The Natural Sleep Store in Denver may be worth a look.

Most likely, with all this looking and trying mattresses I’ll probably just get confused. But hopefully I’ll spot trends and narrow my selection. I don’t want to become too obsessed with this mattress search, and at some point I just need to choose and hope my wife likes at least one of my suggestions.

I would tend to choose a few of the retailers/manufacturers that are most interesting to you or that have mattresses you are most interested in testing. I would then make a few phone calls just to get a few more details about what they have available, to get a sense of their knowledge and transparency, and to make sure that they have mattresses on their floor that fit your criteria. If your conversation confirms that they would be worth a visit then I would choose two or three of them to visit and choose a “finalist” at each of the stores you visit (the mattress you would purchase there if you had no other options available). Once you have your list of “finalists” then I would make a final choice between them.

Phoenix

[wacomme]

He said the Wazee is made by LatexCo, and is a two layer (6", and 5" on top) progressive natural Talalay. He said the process is new, that the ILD progressively moves from more dense to less dense as one moves up through the layer (same process for both layers). He said that this process makes the bed less bouncy. The 1" polyfoam on the bottom of the mattress also aids in less bounce (though one can buy this mattress without the poly foam layer).

The latex in the Wazee is 100% natural Talalay latex and I think your salesman may be a little confused (or perhaps you misunderstood). The Wazee uses multiple layers that that are different firmness levels so the mattress has a “progressive construction” which means that the softest layer is on the top and the deeper layers are progressively firmer

The Talalay that they use is made by Radium which is one of two manufacturers that make Talalay latex in the world (the other is Latex International) and is supplied by Latexco but they don’t make it. Neither one makes Talalay latex that uses a “new process” that becomes less dense as you go from the bottom to the top (although many Dunlop latex cores are denser on the bottom than on the top).

Thanks for the information about the manufacturer. However, the salesman showed the the three layers in the Wazee. The bottom 1" layer is soy foam (for less bounce the salesman said). Then there are two latex layers - a 6" layer with a 5" layer on top. Each of these layers look like one piece of latex, not multiple (progressive) layers. So, this “progressive” layering is now very confusing.

[phoenix]

Hi wacomme,

While there is no specific definition of a “progressive” construction (vs what I call a a differential construction) … it normally refers to a mattress where there are several layers and softest layers are on top of the mattress and each layer below that is firmer than the one above it.

It’s not important at all and it has no bearing on the quality or durability of a mattress as long as the mattress is a good match for you in terms of PPP.

Phoenix

[wacomme]

Thanks.

Is there any feedback available on the mattresses from Foam Source in Boulder, CO? (I’m having a devil of a time finding anything with the search function - ???)

[phoenix]

Hi wacomme,

Is there any feedback available on the mattresses from Foam Source in Boulder, CO? (I’m having a devil of a time finding anything with the search function - ???)

The help tab here has more information about searching the site that should be helpful.

There is more information about Foamsource in this topic and a forum search on foamsource (you can just click the link) will bring up more comments and feedback about them as well.

They specialize in latex mattresses (although they have a memory foam mattress as well) that use a range of different types and blends of latex that have different designs and custom firmness options and they have a 60 day comfort exchange policy as well so you can change the comfort or support of your mattress after a purchase.

All of their mattresses use high quality materials and there are no lower quality materials or weak links in any of them.

Phoenix

[Pengel]

While I am certainly not an expert I am going through the same process in your area. I did not got to Sleep Nation but shopped Urban Mattress in Denver. Urban Mattress only had one all natural latex bed.

I ventured up to Boulder and went to Foam Source or Boulder Comforts and Verlo. It was very convenient as they are within 5 min of each other.

I was pleased with the staff at both stores. I simply liked the latex feel. Matt at Boulder Comforts was very patient and knowledgeable. He showed me the various beds and explained how they are made. He also explained who they get their foam from and the differences between Dunlap and Talalay. I thought I might like a layer of Dunlop and Talalay on top but I was wrong. Glad I didn’t buy a bed online.

Matt also took me in the back room and showed me the process for selecting layers. Based on my impressions of his floor models, Matt came up with a layering system for me. I like that the layers are not glued together so I can make changes if necessary.

Matt also described how the platforms may or may not impact my comfort. He actually suggested cheap platform solutions as well as the platforms he sells and gave me the pros and cons.

I ended up pulling the trigger on a Foam Source bed that will arrive tomorrow. I had an option at Verlo too but I liked the simplicity and feel of the latex bed.

Delivery to the Denver area is is reasonable and also saves a bit on taxes.

I will know more tomorrow when it arrives. I feel good so far.

It is worth a trip to Boulder in my opinion. The only drawback to the smaller companies is there is no refund it’s an exchange. I like the latex feel and if I need to make changes in the layering that is easy to do. Matt said I could even get my layers in the car as they are not as thick which will save a potential delivery fee.

Hope that helps.

[phoenix]

Hi Pengel,

Thanks for taking the time to share your comments and feedback and for letting us know what you ended up deciding.

You certainly made a great quality choice … and congratulations on your new mattress

I’m hope you have a chance to share your comments when you receive it and have had the chance to sleep on it for a bit as well.

Phoenix

[wacomme]

@Phoenix

Hi wacomme,

While there is no specific definition of a “progressive” construction (vs what I call a a differential construction) … it normally refers to a mattress where there are several layers and softest layers are on top of the mattress and each layer below that is firmer than the one above it.

It’s not important at all and it has no bearing on the quality or durability of a mattress as long as the mattress is a good match for you in terms of PPP.

Phoenix

I revisited Sleep Nation on County Line Rd. Thursday evening. And while my intent is not to create an argument, I want to clarify what the salesman (I need to get his name) is saying about the Wazee mattress. He insists that it’s 100% natural Talalay made by LatexCo. He says that both the 6" bottom and 5" top layers are “progessive” pours. Meaning - that both both “firm” bottom and “medium” top layers get progressively less dense from bottom to top; a new technology he states. Is this “false” information? I know this is a technical point and does not necessarily affect how the mattress fits me (PPP), but in regards to factual information, the information the salesman is saying and what I’m reading here is highly confusing.

[wacomme]

[quote=“Pengel” post=48887]While I am certainly not an expert I am going through the same process in your area. I did not got to Sleep Nation but shopped Urban Mattress in Denver. Urban Mattress only had one all natural latex bed.

I ventured up to Boulder and went to Foam Source or Boulder Comforts and Verlo. It was very convenient as they are within 5 min of each other.

I was pleased with the staff at both stores. I simply liked the latex feel. Matt at Boulder Comforts was very patient and knowledgeable. He showed me the various beds and explained how they are made. He also explained who they get their foam from and the differences between Dunlap and Talalay. I thought I might like a layer of Dunlop and Talalay on top but I was wrong. Glad I didn’t buy a bed online.

Matt also took me in the back room and showed me the process for selecting layers. Based on my impressions of his floor models, Matt came up with a layering system for me. I like that the layers are not glued together so I can make changes if necessary.

Matt also described how the platforms may or may not impact my comfort. He actually suggested cheap platform solutions as well as the platforms he sells and gave me the pros and cons.

I ended up pulling the trigger on a Foam Source bed that will arrive tomorrow. I had an option at Verlo too but I liked the simplicity and feel of the latex bed.

Delivery to the Denver area is is reasonable and also saves a bit on taxes.

I will know more tomorrow when it arrives. I feel good so far.

It is worth a trip to Boulder in my opinion. The only drawback to the smaller companies is there is no refund it’s an exchange. I like the latex feel and if I need to make changes in the layering that is easy to do. Matt said I could even get my layers in the car as they are not as thick which will save a potential delivery fee.

Hope that helps.[/quote]

I also made a trip to Boulder and visited Boulder Comfort (foam source). I also visited Haiku in Boulder, but not Verlo. In my opinion, Matt was knowledgeable, but not very helpful. Though they offer a lot of layer customization, Matt wasn’t willing to have me try different layer combinations that weren’t on the showroom floor, though he said he would when I brought my wife along (my wife, though, isn’t interested in spending he time to try different layer combinations - unlike me).

Nevertheless, here is what I found:

Foamsource - 10" latex. 1"
Wool cover. Flexible choices and sides. Molly may like 2" firm, 6" medium, 2"
soft. I like 2" firm, 6" firm, 2" medium (perhaps slight too firm). 100% Talalay all layers. 60 day exchange. Good layer exchange.

We have the option for side-by–side customization. The price is reasonable ($2400), and the only real downside is a no return policy, only layer exchange. So, what if Molly (my wife) and me don’t like latex? The other options in the store are limited.

So this got me thinking about ordering online from a place like mattress.net. While I’d incur shipping charges for layer exchanges or returns, at least I could return the mattress if necessary.

I think my next step is to take my wife to Sleep Nation and Foamsource (Boulder Comfort) to see if she’s even consider the notion of a latex bed. And if we decide to buy locally (Boulder is a distance away, and layer exchanges would be an all-day affair) despite the no return policy I’m leaning towards Foamsouce; I might like the Wazee bed at Sleep Nation slightly better, but it’s also $1000 more expensive. Then again, mattress.net seems quite enticing too.

[phoenix]

Hi wacomme,

I revisited Sleep Nation on County Line Rd. Thursday evening. And while my intent is not to create an argument, I want to clarify what the salesman (I need to get his name) is saying about the Wazee mattress. He insists that it’s 100% natural Talalay made by LatexCo. He says that both the 6" bottom and 5" top layers are “progessive” pours. Meaning - that both both “firm” bottom and “medium” top layers get progressively less dense from bottom to top; a new technology he states. Is this “false” information? I know this is a technical point and does not necessarily affect how the mattress fits me (PPP), but in regards to factual information, the information the salesman is saying and what I’m reading here is highly confusing.

I believe that your salesperson may be misinformed. Latexco doesn’t make Talalay latex (they supply Vita Talalay made by Radium in Holland) and as far as I’m aware they don’t make Talalay latex that is “progressively” poured. You can see the ILD ranges for Radium Talalay in thispicturewhichcamedirectlyfrommycontacthttps://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/0https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/1https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/2https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/3

I also made a trip to Boulder and visited Boulder Comfort (foam source). I also visited Haiku in Boulder, but not Verlo. In my opinion, Matt was knowledgeable, but not very helpful. Though they offer a lot of layer customization, Matt wasn’t willing to have me try different layer combinations that weren’t on the showroom floor, though he said he would when I brought my wife along (my wife, though, isn’t interested in spending he time to try different layer combinations - unlike me).

This is probably a good suggestion because someone else sleeping on a mattress can affect how it feels and performs for you and a couple should always test a mattress together.

We have the option for side-by–side customization. The price is reasonable ($2400), and the only real downside is a no return policy, only layer exchange. So, what if Molly (my wife) and me don’t like latex? The other options in the store are limited.

I would make sure that both of you have confirmed that you like latex based on actual testing before you buy a latex mattress so that the only potential issue is layer firmness (which can be exchanged) rather than the feel and response of latex itself.

So this got me thinking about ordering online from a place like mattress.net. While I’d incur shipping charges for layer exchanges or returns, at least I could return the mattress if necessary.

Yes they do have a return policy and for some people this may be an important part of their personal value equation and for others that have confirmed that they like latex or have tested a specific mattress in person and are confident that it’s a good match in terms of PPP it may not be as important. There is more about the different ways to choose a suitable mattress (either locally or online) that can help you assess and minimize the risks involved with each of them in post #2 here.

All of the mattresses you are considering are certainly high quality and durable mattresses and there are no lower quality materials or weak links in any of them. Once you have narrowed down your choices to to a list of finalists that are all choices between “good and good” and if at that point there are no clear winners between them then you are in the fortunate position that any of them would likely be a suitable choice and post #2 here can help you make a final choice based on your local testing and experiences or online conversations with each of them, your confidence about the suitability of each one, the options you have before and after a purchase, and on “informed best judgement” based on all the other objective, subjective, and intangible parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.

Phoenix

[wacomme]

OK. I need help, and soon.

After the snow storms ended I finally was able to get my wife to Boulder, CO to check out latex mattresses. We went to Boulder Comforts (foamsource.com). Her initial reaction after walking in the store was the odor of rubber balloons. The smell was visceral and overwhelming to her. And the closer she got to the foam the worse it became. She’s a trooper and stayed the course, yet felt ill from the smell. She still preferred her current 15 year old Tempurpedic, yet was “OK” with a soft Talalay latex - 2" firm, 6" medium, and 2" soft. She’s an impulse buyer, yet due to the odor we walked out without buying. While it didn’t really bother me, I smelled the balloon aroma as well in the store. “Maybe it was the number of beds in the store,” we thought. So we went to Verlo. Upon entering the store, no odor. While lying on their latex beds, no odor. Nose to the foam she could smell the rubber, but it was different and not bothersome like that at foamsource.

We explained this to the salesman at Verlo, David. He said “real” latex foam shouldn’t smell, but the “fake” latex foam does - perfumes are added to the fake stuff. The inference was that Foamsource is using “fake” latex, even though they say it’s 100% natural Talalay from Latex International. David said Verlo uses the “real” blended latex, Talalay, from Radium.

My wife found a bed she liked - or at least was acceptable, an 8" blended Talalay Radium mattress - 4" firm, 2" medium, 2" soft. I found it a little more supportive (for back) than the mattress at foamsource. We bought it for $2200, delivered next Thursday. However, I have some concerns:

1. Is the “fake” claim untrue? Foamsource is highly rated on Mattress Underground. Could they be selling fake latex? Odor has a strong visceral response, and my wife could hardly stand being in the foamsource store. Upon leaving the store she was fine. And gain, she didn’t have an odor response at Verlo. Could this just be manufacturing differences between Latex International (foamsource) and Radium (Verlo)?
2. I’m also highly concerned that Verlo doesn’t offer a return or exchange policy. There is also no warranty on their latex mattresses.
3. Does Radium make 4" blended Talalay layers?
4. Is an 8" latex mattress to thin? I’m 6’ and 155 lbs. My wife is 5’8" and 200 or so pounds. I’m mostly a back sleeper; she’s a side sleeper.

My wife hates mail order and wants to order locally. But we’re somewhat limited in Colorado. Mattressses.net offers a similar mattress for about half the price as Verlo, and they offer exchanges and returns. BTW - is the latex at Mattrresses.net from Latex International or Radium. I’m thinking of canceling the Verlo order and order from mattresses.net instead. I don’t want to anger my wife, but we’ve never had a latex mattress before. I’d hate to spend $2400 on a mattress and hate it with no recourse.

Thoughts?

Michael

[wacomme]

Also, if we decide to stay with queen Virtue 8" blended talalay Radium mattress from Verlo, is there any disadvantage to not having the layers glue together with latex glue? My wife wants them glued together as suggested by the salesman - so they don’t move around. I’d rather not have them glued together. Without a return or exchange policy, I’d like the option to move the layers around if necessary, or even replace a layer if the situation becomes dire.

Michael

[phoenix]

Hi wacomme,’

[quote]We explained this to the salesman at Verlo, David. He said “real” latex foam shouldn’t smell, but the “fake” latex foam does - perfumes are added to the fake stuff. The inference was that Foamsource is using “fake” latex, even though they say it’s 100% natural Talalay from Latex International. David said Verlo uses the “real” blended latex, Talalay, from Radium.

1. Is the “fake” claim untrue? Foamsource is highly rated on Mattress Underground. Could they be selling fake latex? Odor has a strong visceral response, and my wife could hardly stand being in the foamsource store. Upon leaving the store she was fine. And gain, she didn’t have an odor response at Verlo. Could this just be manufacturing differences between Latex International (foamsource) and Radium (Verlo)?[/quote]

There could be many reasons for the difference in smell such as the number of mattresses in the store, the fact that Foam Source uses more 100% natural Talalay which tends to have a stronger “rubber” odor, the particular batches of latex that are currently in thestore (some batches have a stronger initial odor than others) the greater amount of handling or bare layers at Foam Source from rearranging individual layers, along with many other factors including the layout and design of the store itself but any inference that the latex at Foam Source is somehow “fake” is complete and utter nonsense and someone that would imply this seems to know very little about latex and is obviously trying to make the sale by telling you anything they think you are likely to believe. Foam Source offers both 100% natural Talalay and Blended Talalay (which is 30% natural rubber and 70% synthetic rubber).

There is more about the different types and blends of latex in post #6 here and there is more about the smell of latex in post #2 here.

2) I’m also highly concerned that Verlo doesn’t offer a return or exchange policy. There is also no warranty on their latex mattresses.

An exchange or return policy or the ability to fine tune the comfort or support of a mattress by rearranging or exchanging layers or making adjustments to a mattress can certainly be an important part of the “value” of a mattress purchase if you aren’t certain that a mattress is a good “match” for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences). Verlo has a lifetime comfort guarantee where they will make changes to your mattress if you need it and Foam Source has layer exchanges that allow you to fine tune your mattress by rearranging layers or exchanging a layer.

Mattress warranties cover defects in a mattress and not the gradual loss of comfort and support that is the main reason that people will need to buy a new mattress so they have little to do with the durability or useful life of a mattress (see post #174 here). Having said that … defects are always possible (and tend to show up early in the life of a mattress) so having no warranty at all would be very risky if they won’t replace a mattress that has defective materials. I believe that all Verlo mattresses have a warranty so if a particular mattress they are selling doesn’t have one then it could be a floor model or a comfort exchange that is being sold “as is” which would be a much more risky purchase. I would make sure you clarify this.

3) Does Radium make 4" blended Talalay layers?

Radium makes 6" cores that can be slit to any thickness less than that.

4) Is an 8" latex mattress to thin? I’m 6’ and 155 lbs. My wife is 5’8" and 200 or so pounds. I’m mostly a back sleeper; she’s a side sleeper.

The thickness of a mattress or individual layers is only one of many factors that is part of the design of a mattress so by itself it means very little but there is more about the effect of thickness in post #14 here.

Unfortunately there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved for anyone to be able to predict whether any mattress will be a good match for you based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or “theory at a distance” (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here) and the only reliable way to know whether any mattress is a good match for you in terms of PPP is based on your own careful testing or actual sleeping experience.

BTW - is the latex at Mattrresses.net from Latex International or Radium.

They can supply both but their most popular mattresses use Radium.

is there any disadvantage to not having the layers glue together with latex glue? My wife wants them glued together as suggested by the salesman - so they don’t move around. I’d rather not have them glued together. Without a return or exchange policy, I’d like the option to move the layers around if necessary, or even replace a layer if the situation becomes dire.

There is more about the pros and cons of glued vs unglued layers in post #2 here and the posts it links to.

Once you are down to your list of “finalists”, if they are all choices between “good and good” and none of them have any weak links or lower quality materials in their design and if there are no clear winners between them then you are in the fortunate position that any of them would likely be a suitable choice and post #2 here can help you make a final choice based on your local testing, your conversations with each of them, your confidence about the suitability of each one, the prices, the exchange or return options you have after a purchase, any additional extras that are part of each purchase, and on “informed best judgement” based on all the other objective, subjective, and intangible parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.

Phoenix

[wacomme]

It’s so easy to be led astray. Since David at Verlo was talking about “Faketex” in reaction to my wife’s visceral response to the smell of 100% Talalay latex at Boulder Comforts, she’s now paranoid about buying a latex mattress that is not “Faketex”. Now, my wife did react quite strongly to the smell of the latex mattresses at Boulder Comforts, and smell can elicit a strong emotional response. But the false information of “Faketex” is worrisome. The mattress we were looking at Verlo was blended latex. I just wish David at Verlo didn’t imply (knowingly or not) that the latex at Boulder Comforts might be “Faketex”. Argh.

Having bought the 8" latex mattress at Verlo (delivery scheduled for Thursday), I started to wonder about the no return, no exchange policy, so I call David on Sunday. He confirmed that while their non-latex mattresses have a comfort guarantee, this guarantee doesn’t apply to their latex mattresses - thus buy the mattress with no recourse.

The “short” story is that last night I was reluctantly able to convince my wife that we should buy the 10000 bed from SleepEZ - firm (38-40 ILD), medium (30-32 ILD), soft (19-22 ILD) blended Talalay from Radium. So today I called David at Verlo to cancel my order. He immediately got in touch with the owner and offered a 30-day return policy (sans cover - cost $175 and pickup, $150).

This complicates matters. When I tell my wife about this offer she’ll surely take it over the mail-order (SleepEZ) alternative. But I’m not so sure:

1. Verlo’s mattress is still $600 more expensive than the SleepEZ 10000 mattress.
2. Return with Verlo is $325 vs. $99 with SleepEZ
3. Layer exchange is possible with SleepEZ ($30), not with Verlo.
4. I have tried the Verlo mattress in the showroom floor - not so with SleepEZ; though the mattress we’ll receive will be new in both cases. Plus, how much can one tell by laying on the mattress in the showroom for 10 minutes?
5. The layers in the Verlo are glued together; separate and split in the SleepEZ.
6. 30-day return at Verlo; 90-day return and exchange at SleepEZ.
7. The salesman at Verlo created undue concern about “Faketex” latex (“If it’s white, has small holes, and smells, it’s going back,” my wife now tells me - believing David at Verlo). This bothers me.

Also, I’ve read that a split mattress (and non-glued layers) are NOT a problem, that you don’t feel the split, and the layers don’t move around. Now, my wife often moves over to my side of the bed during the night, laying in the middle of the mattress and pushing me to the edge. Would a split mattress be of concern in this case?

Anyhow, I’m very weary and confused. My gut tells me that despite Verlo’s return offer, I should go with SleepEZ and buy a mattress from them, “sight unseen” as my wife would say. But to convince my wife of this . . .

Michael

[wacomme]

Any thoughts/comments would be most appreciated.

[phoenix]

Hi wacomme,

Most of the choices you are making are “best judgement” choices that will be need to be based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you and on whether you and your wife can agree. Hopefully your choices will be based on “factual” information.

Having said that … other than the previous link about making final choices I can make a few comments that may help.

It’s so easy to be led astray. Since David at Verlo was talking about “Faketex” in reaction to my wife’s visceral response to the smell of 100% Talalay latex at Boulder Comforts, she’s now paranoid about buying a latex mattress that is not “Faketex”. Now, my wife did react quite strongly to the smell of the latex mattresses at Boulder Comforts, and smell can elicit a strong emotional response. But the false information of “Faketex” is worrisome. The mattress we were looking at Verlo was blended latex. I just wish David at Verlo didn’t imply (knowingly or not) that the latex at Boulder Comforts might be “Faketex”. Argh.

Considering that the blended Talalay at Foamsource would be the same type and blend of latex as the blended Talalay at Verlo … if they consider the blended Talalay at Boulder to be “Faketex” then their own latex would be the same thing.

Having bought the 8" latex mattress at Verlo (delivery scheduled for Thursday), I started to wonder about the no return, no exchange policy, so I call David on Sunday. He confirmed that while their non-latex mattresses have a comfort guarantee, this guarantee doesn’t apply to their latex mattresses - thus buy the mattress with no recourse.

The “short” story is that last night I was reluctantly able to convince my wife that we should buy the 10000 bed from SleepEZ - firm (38-40 ILD), medium (30-32 ILD), soft (19-22 ILD) blended Talalay from Radium. So today I called David at Verlo to cancel my order. He immediately got in touch with the owner and offered a 30-day return policy (sans cover - cost $175 and pickup, $150).

It’s sometimes amazing what a “lost sale” can do for store policies. I was curious about the lack of a comfort guarantee on your mattress so I talked with another store and they told me that the most likely reason there was no comfort guarantee for your specific mattress was probably because the layers are glued so they wouldn’t be able to remove a layer and add a different layer and that they also wouldn’t have other firmness choices available for latex. Interestingly enough they also told me that they were gradually introducing component mattress options to their lineup with zip covers that allow for individual layers to be exchanged (like Foamsource, SleepEZ, and Arizona Premium) and that the latex version of their component mattress would probably be available in 3-4 months. There is also more about the construction of the Verlo Harmony Virtue in post #1 here (unless they’ve changed it) that may be a useful reference point.

4. I have tried the Verlo mattress in the showroom floor - not so with SleepEZ; though the mattress we’ll receive will be new in both cases. Plus, how much can one tell by laying on the mattress in the showroom for 10 minutes?

In most cases careful testing using the testing guidelines and spending 15 - 20 minutes on a mattress can come close enough to predicting your actual sleeping experience that only minor fine tuning would be necessary if any is necessary at all (see post #4 here). Of course this would be true for “most people” but not for “all people”. There is always some additional risk with an online choice where you haven’t tested the mattress in person or the mattress is different from a specific design that you have tested locally but return and exchange options can lower the risk of online choices. There is more about the different ways to choose a mattress (either locally or online) that is the most suitable “match” for your specific needs and preferences and how to identify and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for that are involved in each of them in post #2 here.

Also, I’ve read that a split mattress (and non-glued layers) are NOT a problem, that you don’t feel the split, and the layers don’t move around. Now, my wife often moves over to my side of the bed during the night, laying in the middle of the mattress and pushing me to the edge. Would a split mattress be of concern in this case?

You can read more about the pros and cons of split layers in post #2 here. She would probably be able to feel the difference in firmness on each side if she was lying across the middle of the bed but not the actual “split” itself. For most people the pros of a split layer would outweigh the cons and the different firmness levels on each side isn’t an issue but this is another one of those issues that your own personal experience will be the only way to know how she feels about it and if for some reason it was an issue then you would would have the “backup” of being able to exchange a layer so the firmness of the top layer at least was the same on each side.

I hope that you and your wife can find a consensus … but that’s not something that I can help with

Phoenix

[wacomme]

Thanks Phoenix!

It’s sometimes amazing what a “lost sale” can do for store policies. I was curious about the lack of a comfort guarantee on your mattress so I talked with another store and they told me that the most likely reason there was no comfort guarantee for your specific mattress was probably because the layers are glued so they wouldn’t be able to remove a layer and add a different layer and that they also wouldn’t have other firmness choices available for latex. Interestingly enough they also told me that they were gradually introducing component mattress options to their lineup with zip covers that allow for individual layers to be exchanged (like Foamsource, SleepEZ, and Arizona Premium) and that the latex version of their component mattress would probably be available in 3-4 months. There is also more about the construction of the Verlo Harmony Virtue in post #1 here (unless they’ve changed it) that may be a useful reference point.

This is very interesting. David at Verlo said that he could get the Virtue mattress unglued, but it would take 3-4 weeks. However, and unfortunately, he convinced my wife that glued was better than unglued.

Also, I’ve read that a split mattress (and non-glued layers) are NOT a problem, that you don’t feel the split, and the layers don’t move around. Now, my wife often moves over to my side of the bed during the night, laying in the middle of the mattress and pushing me to the edge. Would a split mattress be of concern in this case?

[quote]
You can read more about the pros and cons of split layers in post #2 here. She would probably be able to feel the difference in firmness on each side if she was lying across the middle of the bed but not the actual “split” itself. For most people the pros of a split layer would outweigh the cons and the different firmness levels on each side isn’t an issue but this is another one of those issues that your own personal experience will be the only way to know how she feels about it and if for some reason it was an issue then you would would have the “backup” of being able to exchange a layer so the firmness of the top layer at least was the same on each side.[/quote]

Jody at SleepEZ suggested similar configurations for my wife and me with the 10000 mattress: firm (38-40 ILD), medium (30-32 ILD), soft (19-22 ILD), for each of the three layers, bottom to top, all blended Talalay from Radium (Radium, specifically, and blended, since that was the latex at Verlo to which my wife did NOT have an odor reaction). I’m mostly a back sleeper and my wife is a side sleeper, yet despite our different body shapes (me, 6’ and 155 lbs., wife 5’8" and 200ish lbs.), my wife favors a soft mattress and I want one to support my lower back, so I guess the same mattress will work for both of us. A split would add the versatility of adjusting layer order and layer exchange, and possible adjustments over time.

I hope that you and your wife can find a consensus … but that’s not something that I can help with

Phoenix[/quote]