New topper needed above 3 layers of Talalay latex (28/36/44 ILD)

Our 3" of Sensus memory foam is about eight years old and it appears its comfort life has pretty much ended. It really doesn’t appear to be doing much of anything positive and we’re both experiencing new pains. We were fortunate to purchase it from Mark Riegle (Batman) back in the day when his site was by far the most informative and fairest in price. Our succeeding layers are 3" 28 ILD Talalay, 3" 36 ILD Talalay, and 3" 44 ILD Talalay. My wife and I are on the heavier side. She is mostly a side sleeper. I am a back/side sleeper. She has fibromyalgia. We’ve liked the feel of memory foam for the most part, but it does sleep hot at times.

I’ve taken the Sensus off the bed and we’ll see tonight how the 28 ILD Talalay would feel as a top layer. We’ve never had latex as the top layer. I suspect it would be too firm, but would it give us some idea that it would be worthwhile to try 19 ILD Talalay as the top layer? Could we get away with 2" of soft latex rather than 3" of memory foam? Is there any point to just getting one inch of memory foam, but getting 2 additional inches of latex?

So here are some options, all in king size:

  1. Simply replace the Sensus; don’t mess with success. Downside is finding authentic Sensus at a good price plus maybe a different solution would be better anyway.

  2. Try a different memory foam like Isoform from Bergard, for example.

  3. 2-3" of 19 ILD Talalay latex. Downside there would be finding it a reasonable price plus we may not like it as well as memory foam.

  4. Some combination of additional latex, and perhaps just one inch of memory foam.

Any thoughts or opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Hi Benjammin,

I “switched” your other post to this thread because I usually keep the other thread for new member introductions (and there are two posts that will be added there in the next 24 hours) … I hope that’s OK.

And welcome to the forum.

If you have been happy with the Sensus it would make some sense to replace it with the same thing as a “safe” and known option. One of our members sells the real thing here at good prices. They are also available here at a little less but it says they are sold by Cymax and the Cymax site doesn’t list them so I don’t know if they are still current listings. It’s also strange that all the sizes are the same price so I’m not sure if the prices are correct either. It would be nice if they were.

Softer latex would also be a good option but as you know it is very different from memory foam so it would be important to know that you liked it before buying. Your sleep testing on the 28 ILD should give you some good feedback about the “feel” (although not the firmness) of sleeping directly on latex. I would also think that 2" by itself may not be quite enough thickness because of what you’re used to (the thinner layer would allow you to feel more of the firmer layers underneath) but fine tuning this with an inch of sensus would allow the mattress to sleep cooler than a thicker memory foam layer and would also give the surface “memory foam feel” with more of the response of latex “blended in” and this could be a good option. The memory foam would only be “surface feel” though but the overall pressure relief would be similar (although the latex would be a little firmer at 19 ILD while the Sensus is “rated” at 14 ILD). Memory foam ILD ratings are misleading because they are so variable with temperature.

Latex International has also just introduced a new slow response latex with phase change gel in it (like the Celsion talalay) called talalay GL which is different from their old NuForm slow response latex. It will have a fast response and a slow response version. From the feedback I’ve had so far (from several people) … it is much superior to the NuForm in feel and more “memory foam” like. One of our members, Arizona Premium Mattress, already has it listed with a video on one of their websites here and this may also be a good (and interesting) option and would certainly be an improvement in sleeping temperature. It is listed as 24 ILD however which would make it soft but firmer than most memory foams.

Bergad also makes some good memory foam and they use MDI instead of TDI which IMO can be a superior formula. It is very breathable and has a good texture. I have some mixed feelings about them though because they have never submitted their foam to CertiPur or Oeko-Tex and while they have had them tested … the results I have seen are fairly vague and only measure “total offgassing” and are far less extensive than even the CertiPur testing standards. They also seemed at least at one time to have some sporadic quality control issues. The current feedback I have heard about though seems to indicate that their current foam is high quality.

While of course much of this is a preference issue and involves how comfortable you are with using a different materials from what you are used to (which is why I haven’t give a “best” option) … at least you have my thoughts about your choices.


Phoenix, thanks for your thoughts and feedback. We had our first night sleeping directly on the 28 Talalay. My wife (primarily side sleeper) reported no pains and a good night’s sleep, although she didn’t say it was the most comfortable. I (back and side) also slept well but have some tightness in my lower back. It was definitely cooler and I didn’t mind sleeping “on” the mattress, rather than “in” the mattress. We both thought it was too firm.

I am intrigued by your idea of 2" of softer Talalay with an inch of Sensus on top of that. Buying through Amazon the Comfort Magic/Cymax Sensus is even cheaper, but who knows if it is the real thing. Would just one inch of memory foam on top of 2" of softer latex really do much or would we just sink right through the memory foam like it wasn’t there on to the latex?

What are your opinions of the various latex topper offerings at (Arizona Premium Mattress) in regards to our needs?

  1. 2" Talalay $239 22 ILD (simple choice, and just add an inch of memory foam above it)
  2. 3" Talalay GL $397 24 ILD? (sort of a slow latex foam, supposedly cooler, supposedly the best of memory foam and latex together, would that ILD be too firm?) Phoenix, what has the feedback been from the several people you’ve heard from regarding it?
  3. 3" Natural Dunlop $349 25 ILD (too firm, probably)
  4. 3" Rejuvenite $427 19 ILD (plush) pricey, don’t need cover, almost $200 more for just an inch more of latex. Is Rejuvenite just a marketing name for their soft Talalay?



Hi benjammin,

I talked with Cymax today to see if they could explain a few of the discrepancies in their various listings. Both the Sears site and amazon has the same price for every size (which appears to be correct) and they also list every size as being the same weight of 50 lbs (which can’t be correct). they also have different prices for the same product. They tried to call Comfort Dreams which didn’t answer their phone so they will find out why the different prices (are they both new product and not used or exchanged products) and the correct weight of at least one size so a calculation can confirm if the memory foam is truly 5 lb. (which I believe it is)

I also left a message with Foamex/FXI to see if they can confirm if the “comfort magic” is really Sensus or is just an “alternative” that has been licensed to use the name.

I’ll post here if and when I get any answers.

One of the reasons I like dealing with a real person/company that I know and trust is that this kind of followup research isn’t necessary but the issue of the different prices and the accuracy of some descriptions comes up enough that I thought I would see if I could find out some reliable information.

You will “sink through” to some degree with any upper layer no matter what the firmness and thickness but it’s a matter of degree. What I mean is that all the layers of a mattress will compress (which means that the top layers don’t take up all the weight by themselves and do all the compressing). If you were to put the top layers of a mattress on the floor you should always feel the floor below it … but “how much” you feel the floor is the question.

The thinner the topper (or top layer) the more you will feel the qualities of the foam below it. A thin memory foam layer will allow you to feel more of the firmness and/or resiliency of the layers below than a thicker memory foam layer. Any topper will modify the feeling of the foam below and the combination (thickness of memory foam topper in combination with the thickness of the rest of the comfort layer and the deeper layers as well) would really depend on the combination of qualities of the two layers you would find most desirable. An inch of memory foam for example would allow more of the resilience and firmness of the layers below it to become apparent while still maintaining “some” memory foam feel in the overall comfort layer. All the layers work simultaneously and in combination with each other so it can be misleading to think in terms of how each one reacts by itself. A more “accurate” question would be how much will the upper layers affect each other in terms of pressure relief and feel. In other words you always want to “go through” a comfort layer (or part of a comfort layer) … it’s just a matter of degree and how much you want it to influence the layers below.

As you know … is a member here which means I think highly of them and the value they offer. The choice between the different toppers though would depend on preferences and any results of your own personal testing and the mattress you are used to.

What I try to do is help you roughly predict the difference between what you have been sleeping on and are used to and the layers you are considering so you can get a sense of which choice may be best for you becuse only you can most accurately “intuit” the feel you are looking for. This is made more difficult because of the many variables involved with how each person interacts with a mattress and which of the layers they will feel the most. For example … just one of these variables is that a heavier person will feel more of the lower layers while a lighter person will feel more of the upper layers and the nature of “feel” itself is very subjective. Slight variances in sleeping position, body shape, and the areas of sensitivity (jhips shoulders) can all creat different descriptions of feel with different people. This is why you see such a wide variety of different feedback about the same mattresses. This is compounded by the differences in the materials themselves because memory foam takes “time” (in varying degrees) to become as soft as it will be while latex is more instant reacting. Some people describe the feeling or softness of memory foam based on initial impression before it has softened or it’s resistance to movement (which can feel much firmer) while others describe it based on what they feel 10 minutes later or without any movement at all.

So having said all that …

1. 2" Talalay $239 22 ILD (simple choice, and just add an inch of memory foam above it)

This may be enough by itself on top of the mattress you have and a thinner soft layer would allow for better alignment in all sleeping positions. If it needed tweaking … then of course an additional thin layer of memory foam (the thickness depending on your impressions of how close it was by itself) would be an “adjustment” option.

2. 3" Talalay GL $397 24 ILD? (sort of a slow latex foam, supposedly cooler, supposedly the best of memory foam and latex together, would that ILD be too firm?) Phoenix, what has the feedback been from the several people you’ve heard from regarding it?

Based on the ILD alone this would appear to be slightly firmer but I suspect that it would feel softer than the ILD indicates. It would have a combination feel with a faster response than memory foam but more conformity and slower than talalay. I haven’t tried this so I would talk to Ken or Greg to see if they can give you a sense of it’s relative softness based on their personal feedback or that of others they know who have tried it. I would personally be very intrigued with this choice.

The little bit of feedback I have heard (and one of these was Ken) was more initial impressions that were open to evolving but it appears that this is a much better and more “attractive” material than the previous slow recovery latex (NuForm) which was not that popular and that it is more of a “memory foam” feeling than the previous version. People who like memory foam seem to like it and like the idea that it also has many of the benefits of latex. They seemed to prefer it over softer latex.

3. 3" Natural Dunlop $349 25 ILD (too firm, probably)

My guess … based on how you feel with a similar 28 ILD talalay … is also that this would be too firm.

4. 3" Rejuvenite $427 19 ILD (plush) pricey, don’t need cover, almost $200 more for just an inch more of latex. Is Rejuvenite just a marketing name for their soft Talalay?

This would be very similar to choice #1 but a little softer and closer to the ILD of memory foam (which is usually less than 16 or so and often much less but this can be misleading for the reasons I mentioned before). Sensus for example is about 14 ILD (at least the real stuff is). This also has the advantage of having a cover which is necessary for a topper (which either needs to go inside the main zip cover if there is room or have its own cover for best protection and to prevent wearing out prematurely. Rejuvenite is a brand for LI (toppers and pillows) and is purchased by sellers as a complete product rather than just purchasing the latex and adding a cover and calling it a latex topper without the Rejuvenite name. There is no difference in the 19 ILD LI latex in the Rejuvenite topper and the same ILD purchased from LI as a latex layer.

Hope this helps you to form an impression of how each option may perform and feel like to you using what you had as a reference point for comparison.


Thanks Phoenix. We have room in our cover for 3" so we wouldn’t need a separate topper cover. If you do find out anything more about the cymax/comfort magic/comfort dreams “Sensus” it would be interesting to know. Thanks for taking the time you’ve already done to investigate. I may talk with Ken or Greg to get more information about the Talalay GL. Doing Google searches, there seems to be very little out there about it. I sent Latex International an email asking for more information about it since information is sparse about it.

Hi benjammin,

They just introduced it at the ISPA show a few weeks ago so I think that there are a lot of people still forming their impressions and deciding whether to include it in their mattresses.

Here is a brochure that was passed on to me by another one of our members with a general description.

As you mention … there is very little information out there so far and what there is seems to be dominated by either various announcement articles or Ken’s various blog or video posts.


The second night sleeping on the 28 ILD Talalay was even better than the first. Of course, I don’t know if it’s because I like latex so much or the fact that our memory foam was so shot getting rid of it was a big improvement.

Hi Benjammin,

This could turn out to be an interesting experiment :).

I would probably continue for a little bit to get a clear sense of your current preferences and if the “improvement” (adjustment to a new sleeping surface) stops … then you will have a clearer sense of any fine tuning needed.

Sometimes preferences change and it can be surprising sometimes that even relatively firmer latex can provide the pressure relief that someone needs because of it’s elasticity and ability to conform. Did both of you feel an improvement?

I’m looking forward to any ongoing updates!


Yeah, I think she also has been happy with it. I still “think” and “feel” that it is too hard/firm, but I agree it might be interesting to experiment further.

I spoke with Greg at Arizona Mattress about the Talalay GL. He was nice. He said upfront that he strongly prefers latex to memory foam so it doesn’t interest him, but I keep coming back to it. One big problem is that they don’t allow returns of toppers so it would not be good in my household if my wife didn’t like it and we were stuck with it. If we could at least pay a re-stocking fee and have the rest credited to buying a different topper I would feel more comfortable about buying it without trying it. If you know of any mattresses from the big companies that use Talalay GL that we could at least try, that would be something better than nothing.

Hi benjammin,

When I talked with Ken … he told me that his initial reaction was the same when he talked with the LI rep. The rep told him that there was a very loyal memory foam market and that if this same overall feel was available in latex without all the negatives of memory foam … that it could be a very important product. After sleeping on it (thinking it over not actually sleeping on the talalay GL :)) … Ken said he came to agree because those who were looking for a memory foam feel but with the benefits of latex that this could be a great solution. As you can see from web searches … he decided to get busy and help them make it popular.

At this stage the only mattress that is using it that I know of is LI’s new line through Pure Latex Bliss. You can see them on the Bliss site here. They include both the fast and slow response versions (the slow response replaced NuForm and the fast response replaced Celsion). If you put in your zip code here you will get a list of PLB outlets near you and a call will confirm if they are carrying any of them yet.

I’m also looking forward to trying it out.


That’s so funny! I was just going to post that I found it with the PLB marketed as “Active Fusion”. There are two sleep shops that carry PLB in Richmond so I will call them tomorrow and see if they have any of mattress models that include “Active Fusion” aka Talalay GL. I have a feeling they probably won’t but it’s worth a shot.

I didn’t make any inquiries today about the availability of trying out Talalay GL around Richmond, but last night was our third night on the 28 ILD and it was again good sleep. I still think it’s somewhat hard and by no means plush without a softer top layer, but it’s not like it’s an absolute need at this point. Of course, this mattress thing can be somewhat of a point of diminishing returns, but it is fun and having a good night’s sleep is no small matter.

Unfortunately the two stores in Richmond that carry Pure Latex Bliss don’t have any models with Talalay GL. So it would have to be a blind purchase from Arizona Mattress with no return allowed apparently. We’re still sleeping reasonably well with the 28 ILD as the top layer but it’s not terribly soft.

Hi benjammin,

That’s unfortunate. I think it will be a while before it’s widely available but it would sure be nice to test it out.

I’m looking forward to testing it myself. There’s 4 outlets within an hour of me that carry PLB and I’m hoping that one of them carries them so I can check them for myself out in the next few weeks.


Last week, I contacted one of the local manufacturers in my area that specializes in latex mattresses regarding Talalay GL - here’s their opinion:

“We got samples of GL in last week. We felt it was lightweight, boardy, and dry feeling. We had planned to use it on a build, but probably won’t unless people really want it. If you want it, we can get it, but as of right now we likely will not be stocking it.”

Unfortunately, not very promising…

Hi LAsleeper,

You’re right … that doesn’t sound great. That’s the first real negative I’ve heard though (in these early stages) and I’m still hoping to test it out myself.

I think there’s a lot of latex “purists” whose initial reaction may not be so good along the lines of “why make latex like memory foam” but like all things there will be some who love it. I’m sure interested in hearing any and all feedback at this point though and I appreciate you passing on his comments.

I also plan to talk with a Latex International rep next week who is currently in China and I will be asking him about it as well.


LA Sleeper, thanks for the information. Phoenix, anything more you can find out about it would be great. Also, if you have any luck finding out whether the Cymax is real, genuine Sensus memory foam would be very helpful.

Arizona mattress did post this about possible exchanges:

I would allow the exchange for another 3″ topper however I would request that you keep the original zippered cover to use on the replacement topper. All shipping costs would be paid by you but we do have good UPS rates. Natural Organic Latex Mattresses in Phoenix, AZ

Hi benjammin,

I just saw your question on the Arizona Mattress website and I think that the exception he is making to his normal topper policy is very fair. It would certainly give anyone who is deciding between the Talalay GL and “regular” latex a chance to try it and then switch it out for another option at a reasonable cost. They also sell memory foam toppers as well so that would be another “switch” option although I don’t know the density.

In regards to the Sensus on the Cymax site …

I didn’t get a return call from either one so I will try to follow up in the coming week. It’s amazing to me sometimes how poor some companies are at returning calls with more “difficult” questions. It’s like they don’t want people to know.

As before … if I get any further information I’ll post it here.


Well, here’s an update three years later. Against my better judgment, we bought a 2.5" novaform gel topper from Costco because it was a “good deal”. The quality has not been good. I think it needs to be replaced. Actually, it probably should have been replaced at least a year ago.

  1. So, what’s the best price/quality combination for a 5lb.+ memory foam similar to Sensus? We’d likely need 3". If people re-read the thread, we had 3" of Sensus that worked well for eight years…
  2. If we go with latex would Puralux 3" 20ILD be a potentially good choice? We’ve been reasonably comfortable on 28 ILD Talalay in the past for a short time. At least there seems to be a good price available for it online.
  3. We have a 150+ pound dog and a 60+ pound dog that jump on the bed so we need something durable.
  4. We probably need a new cover as well with a zipper to hold the layers together. Anyone have anything they’ve liked that wasn’t too expensive? It would need to hold 12" of layers.
  5. Our three layers of Talalay (44, 36, and 28) seem to be in good shape after eleven years.

It’s good to be back. I’ve always enjoyed reading the posts here and in previous mattress forums.

Hi benjammin,

[quote]Well, here’s an update three years later.

It’s good to be back. I’ve always enjoyed reading the posts here and in previous mattress forums. [/quote]

Thanks for the update … and welcome back :slight_smile:

Different people would have very different definitions of the “best price/quality” depending on the properties of the memory foam they prefer (density, temperature sensitivity, response time, firmness/softness, ventilation/cooling, and others) and on all the other parts of the “:value” of a topper purchase that are important to them (including price, return/exchange policies and cost involved, delivery cost and time, and the knowledge and the guidance they provide) so there really isn’t one “best” answer to your question.

Having said that post #4 here includes a list of the better online sources for toppers I’m aware of. They would all be knowledgeable about how the memory foam they sell compares to others on the market and if they are familiar with Sensus then they would also be able to help you compare their memory foam to Sensus as well. Two of them (Rocky Mountain Mattress and Sleep Warehouse) also sell Sensus memory foam if you want to stay with something that you are familiar with.

Post #2 here and the topper guidelines it links to can also help you use your sleeping experience as a reference point and guideline for choosing the type, thickness, and firmness for a topper that has the least possible risk and the best chance for success.

[quote]2. If we go with latex would Puralux 3" 20ILD be a potentially good choice? We’ve been reasonably comfortable on 28 ILD Talalay in the past for a short time. At least there seems to be a good price available for it online.
3. We have a 150+ pound dog and a 60+ pound dog that jump on the bed so we need something durable.[/quote]

All latex would make a durable choice compared to other types of foam materials and Puralux is among the lower priced versions of latex available so if cost is the primary factor then it would make a good choice. Based on your previous comments 20 ILD would probably be “in the range” that could work for you although it will be less resilient than the talalay you are sleeping on and the only way to know for sure will be based on your actual sleeping experience. Your previous comments also indicated that sleeping directly on the 28 ILD latex in your mattress wasn’t “too bad” so you may not need an additional 3" and 2" (a “little to a fair bit” of additional softness and pressure relief) may work well. In very general terms thicker toppers are more pressure relieving but can also be more risky in terms of alignment.

The component post also includes the better sources for covers I’m aware of as well and some of the more stretchy knit covers are listed in post #4 here. There is more about the pros and cons of a quilted cover vs a thinner stretch knit cover in post #12 here.

There are also some comments about the SleepEZ cover here and here and the cover here.