Now that I think I know what I want, evaluating the options ...

[phoenix]

Hi a2dox,

Thanks for taking the time to share all your feedback … I appreciate it

You’re right that it was a long one but I have a few basic suggestions that should help you make a final choice although I don’t think the reply will be nearly as long :).

However, after trying lots and lots and lots of memory foam beds, I am amazed at how much they vary in how they feel, even between beds that reportedly use the same density of memory foam.

There is more about the many different properties of different types of memory foam in post #9 here and post #8 here and as you discovered the density of memory foam is not directly connected with the specific properties or “feel” of the memory foam.

All the layers and components of a mattress will have an effect on the feel and performance of all the other layers and the mattress as a whole so using specs isn’t an effective way to predict how a mattress will feel to you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) because even minor differences in the type, thickness or firmness of individual layers, the specific type of foam used (regardless of its density), or even the type of cover or quilting along with many other specifications that are part of individual layers or the complete mattress can make a surprising difference in the feel and performance of the mattress.

There are always too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved to use specs (either yours or a mattress) or “theory at a distance” to make a mattress choice and your own careful testing for PPP (using the testing guidelines in the tutorial post) will be the most reliable way to decide whether a mattress is a good “match” for you. If you can’t test a mattress in person then a more detailed conversation with a knowledgeable and experienced manufacturer or retailer that is more familiar with “matching” their own mattresses to different body types, sleeping positions, and preferences based on the “averages” of other customers that are similar to you and that can help “talk you through” the options they offer would be a much more reliable source of guidance about making the most suitable choice (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here). If you aren’t confident about whether a specific choice would be suitable for you in terms of PPP then the return or exchange options that are available would also become a more important part of the “value” of your purchase.

It was a very interesting visit! He demonstrated to me how the firmness of the layers underneath the memory foam change how firm the memory foam feels — I was really amazed at how much difference those supporting layers make! I then tried out some of their existing beds. The difference between their “plush” gel memory foam bed (which felt a bit too soft to me) and their firm gel memory foam bed (which felt a bit too firm) was not in the gel foam, but in the density of the core (2.3# polyfoam on the softer bed, and 2.7# on the firmer bed). If I were going with gel memory foam without the latex, I’d go for their “medium” (which would have a 2.4# core). I also got to try one of their latex hybrid beds (which used a 75kg latex — which would be medium) and — while I still like the memory foam — I did like that firmness of latex. (I think the Dunlop also has a bit less “bounce” than the Talalay, which makes me think I might actually prefer the Dunlop.)

Your experience here is another indicator why you can’t use the specs of specific layers to predict how a mattress will feel. The density of polyfoam is also not the biggest reason for the difference you felt because any density of polyfoam can be made in a wide range of firmness levels and it’s the firmness of the foam that you would feel most although higher density polyfoam can also have a higher compression modulus (the rate that a material gets firmer as you compress it more deeply) which can also have some effect on how firm a material feels. There is more about the different specs that can affect the perception of firmness in post #4 here.

There are also many people that prefer Dunlop over Talalay (and vice versa) and there is more about the differences between them in post #7 here.

(The Cool Bliss has 3" 4# gel memory foam instead of 2", and the gel appears to have beads rather than a swirl. Under that is 2" of medium firm Dunlop instead of 3" of soft Talalay. There is a 2" airflow layer of convoluted 2.5# poly foam, and then another 5" of 2.5 lb foam.) Advantages: Could charge or finance the purchase, and they do have a 100 Night Free Return policy after 30 days. Shipping and returns are free. Company has an A rating with the BBB. Has a 25 year warranty. Disadvantages: Can’t “try before I buy” though I have a relatively good sense of what I want.

There is more about the different ways that one mattress can “match” another one in post #9 here but I would once again keep in mind that you while this mattress may be in the same general “category” as another mattress you have tried … every mattress category has a wide range of designs and firmness and softness options with different “feels” so you won’t be able to use specs to predict whether a mattress would be a good match for you. With any online purchase you would be more reliant on a more detailed conversation on the phone along with the return/exchange policy so you can use your actual sleeping experience to decide whether the mattress is a good match for you and “feels” the way you hope it does.

Option 4 - DIY: I could pick up a 2" 4 pound swirl memory gel topper for around $220. I already have three 1 inch 19 ILD Talalay latex toppers that I purchased from Arizona Mattress (I spent around $318 total for those after shipping costs were added in) — I could use those to replicate the 3" 19 ILD talalay in the Dutch Craft mattress. (They feel a bit soft to me, but they might feel different over a firm enough core.) I could get a really good quality HD or HR foam core or a Dunlop latex core online for $300 to $600, depending on which I get and whether I wanted 3" or 6". I could get a bamboo/wool cover for around $200. Advantages: If I got the layers right and am able to use the Talalay toppers that I already have, the cost could be a bit lower than even Rainbow Bedding. I can buy components one at a time to spread out the cost. Disadvantages: If I get it wrong (and that’s a possibility, as I suspect the Talalay I have will be too soft), most places won’t take returns on toppers or components, and it could end up costing me more money, along with the time and stress of figuring out the right combination. I tend to be a bit obsessive when I start a project, so it can either be an incredibly rewarding challenge, or a never-ending quest that eats up far more of my time than is appropriate.

If you are considering designing and building a DIY mattress I would make sure that you’ve read option 3 in post #15 here to make sure you have realistic expectations of success and the trial and error that may be involved. The “best” approach with a DIY mattress is a “spirit of adventure” where the process itself, your experiences, and what you learn along the way are more important than any cost savings which may or may not happen depending on whether you purchase any layers or components that end up needing to be replaced.

The mattress shopping tutorial also includes several links to some of the better online options and possibilities I’m aware of (in the optional online step) that may also be well worth talking to if you are including online manufacturers and retailers in your research.

There is more about the most important parts of the value of a mattress purchase in post #13 here that can help you make more meaningful comparisons between mattresses but none of the options you are considering use any lower quality materials or have any obvious weak links in their design.

When you have reached the point you have reached and you are down to finalists that are between “good and good” and there are no weak links in any of them and there are no clear winners between them then your final choice (see post #2 here) will come down to “best judgement” based on your local testing, your conversations with online manufacturers/retailers, and all the objective, subjective, and intangible parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.

• Does my search for progressive layers with latex supporting the memory foam make sense based on my body type and sleep patterns?

The choice of materials is always a personal preference but if you prefer this type of combination (and there are certainly many people that prefer relatively thinner layers of memory foam over a more resilient type of foam underneath it) then it would be the specifics of the design that was most important in terms of whether it was a good match for you in terms of PPP and the only way to know this with any certainty would be based on your local testing or your actual sleeping experience. Even the most knowledgeable mattress designers with years of experience with many different types and variations of all the different types of foam and other components will often be surprised at how a mattress actually “feels” in real life compared to how it was “supposed to feel” based on specs.

• Is there anything I’m missing in my thinking about these options?

Other than the comments I’ve made and your over reliance on specs to try and predict how a mattress may feel … not that I can see no.

• Is my concern that the Dutchcraft mattress might get softer over time a valid concern? (When I talked with Paul Miller at Rainbow Bedding, he said the main comfort issue he’s seen is that people tend to order mattresses on the firm side, expecting them to soften up, and they don’t — but he uses some pretty dense foam in his cores — 2.3# to 2.7# — so perhaps there isn’t that much softening with the denser materials?)

All mattresses will break in and soften slightly to some degree over the first few weeks (see post #3 here) but if a mattress uses good quality materials then this will be much less and I would always choose a mattress that was a good match for you in terms of PPP when you buy it and I wouldn’t try and factor foam softening in to your choice other than making sure that a mattress wasn’t “on the edge” of being too soft for you.

• Would the fact that Plushbeds uses gel foam with “beads” make it feel different or be less durable than the “swirl” gel in the other mattresses? I think I’ve seen in other discussions here that they use good materials, but may not be the best value compared to others, but that may have been more in reference to all latex.

If the memory foam is different then it can feel different yes. There is also more about the different types of gel materials (including gel memory foams) in post #2 here.

• Would there be a major difference in feel between a 9" mattress and a 12" mattress (if the core were the same density — the only difference being that one has 3" core and the other is 6")?

It would depend entirely on the design of the mattress and the specifics of the all the materials and components in each mattress and on how they interact together with a specific person because the thickness of an individual layer or a mattress is only one of many factors that can affect the feel and performance of a mattress. If two mattresses use the exact same layers and materials (not just the same general type or density) in the same firmness level and have the same type of cover and the only difference between them is in the thickness of the support core then whether someone would feel a “significant” difference or “some” difference or no difference at all would depend on their body type, their sleeping positions, and on where they were inside the range between “princess and the pea” or “I can sleep on anything” in terms of their sensitivity to any differences between two mattresses. There is more about the effect of thickness in post #14 here.

• Do any of these options look better than the others?

This is something that only you can decide based on all the criteria that are most important to you. None of them have any obvious weak links in their design.

• I have the Smartbase Metal Platform Frame/Foundation from Zinus (marketed as Night Therapy here: www.sears.com/night-therapy-deluxe-platf...queen/p-00835628000P) — will that work with the mattress options that I’m considering? I saw a post on the forum that suggested it should be okay, but it wasn’t for sure.

It “should” be OK for a mattress that has a polyfoam support core but it also has wider spaces between the wires than other similar platform bedframes which may affect how much your mattress sinks into the gaps over time (see post #10 here). In other words … the risk of this would be higher than other foundations that have closer spacing between the wires.

And for other members — I’ve seen a number of threads that mention the companies I’m considering, but haven’t found many who have actually purchased from them.

• Has anyone tried the PlushBeds 12" Cool Bliss? If so, what is your experience?
• I know there was another member (and possibly more) that had Rainbow Bedding make a custom mattress, but I haven’t seen a report on how that worked out once they got the mattress— anyone have any experience with them to share?
• Has anyone tried the Dr. J beds made by Dutch Craft? (Or had any experience with their beds?)

Hopefully some of the members here that own any of the mattresses you are considering will see your post and share their feedback but I would be very cautious about using anyone else’s experience as a reliable indication of what you may feel on the same mattress because a mattress that feels too firm to one person can feel too soft to someone else (and vice versa) and a mattress that is a good match for one person or even a group of people in terms of PPP may be completely unsuitable for someone else to sleep on … even if they have a similar body type or sleeping style (see post #13 here about mattress reviews). In the end the only reliable way to know with any certainty whether a mattress is a good match for you would be based on your own personal testing or actual sleeping experience and the only reliable way to assess the quality and durability of a mattress is by knowing the specifics of its construction and design and the materials inside it.

They offer a couple different two-sided memory foam mattresses that use 5# memory foam and have a 2.7# polyfoam core. And they offer a gel memory foam mattress (the one I’m trying to customize by inserting latex in the middle) that can be made with a soft, medium or firm core. I have a brochure with specs for each mattress if anyone is interested.

It would be great if you can attach the brochure to one of your posts (or email it to me and I can attach it for you).

This turned out to be a little longer reply than I anticipated when I first began it and hopefully it will be helpful

Phoenix