Odd request

Hi Hobotrader,

I’m glad to see that you’re sleeping on your new mattress :slight_smile:

I’d probably need to see a picture to know for sure but they would be able to tell you much more whether it’s “normal” or something “unusual” and t could just be that they left the Eurotop looser so that it would have less effect on the softer surface. Creasing or wrinkles in smooth top mattresses vs quilted mattresses is not that unusual.

I didn’t realize your mattress was an odd size. What size did you get?

I’ve never seen cardboard in the side panels but I guess anything is possible. You would need to ask them though. The side panels of a mattress will often use a thicker woven fabric.

If you mean individual layers one on top of each other … then loose multiple layers will generally be a little softer than the same thickness in a single layer in the same ILD. This difference would disappear if the layers were glued.

If you mean pieces that are glued together to form a single layer … then generally you won’t feel the glue seam with the type of flexible water based latex glue that is usually used but you may feel some inconsistency between the pieces if they have a different density or ILD depending on the degree of difference.

I don’t kow what this is.

Once you’ve slept on it then it would be easier to make suggestions based on actual symptoms if its necessary. Pressure has no “direction” when you are sleeping on the mattress without movement (it provides increasingly resistant compression until all forces are balanced in all areas of the contact surfaces of the body and mattress) and then its just a matter of pressure in specific areas of the body. If a mattress doesn’t provide enough pressure relief … then either softer or thicker comfort layers of some type to either equalize the pressure or to provide pressure point specific relief is the most common solution. A more flexible base or a tension adjustable base can also provide some extra “give” under certain areas if the mattress isn’t too thick.

As to the rest … you are far away from any kind of “averages” so any “theoretical” comments probably wouldn’t be very helpful unless you had specific “symptoms” from sleeping on the mattress that I may be able to help with :slight_smile:

Phoenix

Hmm I think I may have found a solution. So the problem is that the cement foam basically exerts a stronger normal force (force that pushes back against your gravitational weight) than my other mattresses - I feel a strong kickback from it and my spine muscles tense causing my arms to go numb. My groin also feels numb’ish but I have something called pudendal neuralgia. With that you want to keep pressure off the butt, but if a mattress is too soft it might upset that L5S1-sciatic site causing the left leg to go numb…It’s a hard trade off. Looking at the pudendal neuralgia forums - it seems like people are buying Tempurpedic toppers (at least 3") to be able to sleep on their back without urologic nerve issues (though they probably don’t have complicating L5S1 sciatic issues). I think for the past while I have been side sleeping - but it’s not possible on this new mattress. I think I’m just learning more about my condition (I had no idea what pudendal neuralgia was awhile ago) - I thought my problems were just about spinal flexion causing the disc to touch the transversing S1 nerve root.

So all in all, I should have taken the memory foam lol…it’s bad for my left leg but the pudendal nerve symptoms scare me more than the sciatic (it’s more up close and personal). And I have the option of side sleeping.

My family laid down on the bed and found no defects, they’ll try tonight. I’m not going to sleep on my mattress after all because I’m getting symptoms I had in December which basically makes me want to run for the ER. Learn something new everyday.

I’ll call Monday to ask for a topper, though 3" memory foam topper on 4" of latex on top of a crazy hard polyfoam core? I should have just went with the memory foam mattress - I could side sleep on it =). Sorry about the mess, I’m still learning more about my body since it’s recently injured and deteriorating - looks like I have to balance firmness for sciatica but enough give or comfort for the pudendal neuralgia. Joe said a 1" 5.3 lbs memory foam mattress topper should be $100-120?

As for the creases or bends of the Eurotop, I can take pictures once the bed is flipped. Parents are losing patience with me - and being injured I can’t move the mattress (I used to be able to lift in the 300 pound area lol - so quite a step down). I will call about the creases and whether it was 1 4" piece or multiple pieces - multiple pieces would explain the protrusions but it could very well be some hard material to prevent damage to frail latex. Better to call than to speculate I suppose.

Thanks for all your help, it is becoming an odd request but I have very odd conditions…probably better not to have worked out at all lol…

As a random note, this bed is awesome for stomach sleeping though.

Hi Hobotrader,

There are different types or what I call different “species” of softness and each has a different meaning and serves a different function in a mattress design. Both are necessary.

The comfort layers need to be soft enough to relieve pressure. This evens out the weight distribution along the body surface and is necessary to maintain good circulation and maintain blood flow and nerve function. The thickness and softness of the comfort layers also have a secondary function which is to fill in the “gaps” in the sleeping profile and maintain “lighter” support under the recessed curves of the spine to maintain their natural curvature. This softer layer provides one of the two main functions of a mattress. It provides the “softness” that is connected to pressure relief. It “allows” sinking in to the degree that is necessary.

The support layers need to be firm enough to “stop” the heavier parts of the body (primarily the pelvis) from sinking down too far and maintaining neutral alignment of the spine. If the pelvis is allowed to sink down too far or not enough then it will tilt anteriorly or posteriorly which changes the natural shape of the lumbar curve which can lead to discomfort and pain … and aggravate injuries.

I’m not a doctor of course but it seems to me that this could certainly be true of the L5S1 site which would be particularly prone to pelvic tilt and of course direct pressure if the disc was pressing directly on the nerve roots.

It also appears that this would be the more important issue of the two when you are sleeping because Pudendal Neuralgia doesn’t appear to be an issue when you are lying down.

Of course you’ve probably done more research than I have into the conditions you are facing and potential remedies or ways to alleviate them but it just seems to me that you are looking at the overall firmness of the mattress without differentiating the different functions of the comfort layer and the support layer. A memory foam layer could certainly provide the comfort layer that I believe you will likely need but so could other materials. This would be a matter of preference.

Supporting pillows in various areas (under the knees on the back and in between the knee on the side) may also be helpful to relieve pressure.

Just some food for thought that may or may not apply to your circumstances :slight_smile:

Phoenix

Thanks for looking these things up to better help me.

So I think with my polyfoam core that’s way more than enough support hahah, that thing can probably used to bludgeon people to death. As for comfort layer…well the latex was great as 40 standalone but atop that cement polyfoam it’s pretty merciless - my parents like it though. I think it being too firm might have shut off blood or neuronal action potentials causing changes in muscle tension which can affect peripheral nerves? That’s why I find it weird that I can lie on the floor or anything else but when I lie on that bed my pudendal symptoms flare up - my Stearns and Fosters was also very firm. Got the idea from this thread: Sleeping positions and lying down - Health Organization for Pudendal Education
Memory Foam for sitting or lying? - Health Organization for Pudendal Education

You’re right though, i was looking at overall firmness rather than functional layering. I noticed that with the Simmons beauty rest, felt plush on top but solid support - but that upset the sciatica. I figure I can wholesale firm the entire thing and not have to worry but I think the uncomfort layers are doing more harm than good. This is a tough call, my alignment looked fine from the side while testing. Memory foam though, I don’t seem to mind. It worked ok other than light sciatica, but I’d take sciatica over groin issues anyday - I used to think it was all disc and all caused by mattress sag but nope…muscles can also have an effect on lower body neuropathy. I’ll have to think more along the lines that you’re suggesting, having a comfortable comfort layer. That might mean memory foam. I remember testing a Tempurpedic last year and that stopped the symptoms. This year it was light sciatica but at least on memory foam I can sleep on my sides =/…Now its a matter of replacing latex with memory foam or using a topper…

The bed I tried before had 4" of memory foam, perhaps I could use 3" so the polyfoam can kick in sooner before that pelvis sinks too far. With reinforced 40 ILD latex I’m probably not sinking enough.

I just read your progressive layering, looks like I’ll be in that ‘adjustment problem’ since I’m so outside of average. Thanks for the paradigm check though. I think I veered off thinking that a single ILD latex can be both comfort and support and basically stuck to the idea there should be latex in the mattress and that firmer is better. Now that I’ve done a little thinking today, I don’t mind sleeping hot. I used to want a heatpad to sleep on but memory foam would let me use my own bodyheat. It’s also cold in the winter. Summer I can probably put a latex layer on top. I’ll figure it out from here. Thanks for your help!

Looks like a 2" latex topper goes for 220-240 - Springmade vs. Dreamtime
Memory foam 2" topper goes for 180-190 - Springmade vs. Dreamtime

My only concern is if it buy it, can I be guaranteed that it’ll work…The price doesn’t bother me too much.

This will be my de facto comfort layer since I screwed up the bed construction lol. It might be better to use a topper to dampen the effect of the normal force of the polyurethane. I’m leaning more towards the latex after seeing this - while I probably won’t react to memory foam I don’t like the idea of VOCs - took some toxicology classes back in the day to realize that you don’t have to have symptoms for bad stuff to happen to your body:

http://www.chem-tox.com/guest/guestbook.html

Hi Hobotrader,

The the only real “guarantee” you have is to actually lie on the combination you are considering either in a storre or at home after the purchase. There are so many variables between people in terms of body shape, weight distribution, sensitivities, and preferences (as you know from your own experience) not to mention specific medical or physiological issues between people that what works for one may not work for another. Sometimes if you are really unsure it can be a good idea to experiment a bit with various toppers that are purchased from a big box store or other retailer that has a great return policy.

The guidelines that I would use for a topper choice though are in post #8 here.

A 2" topper would be a good “standard” choice that is a compromise between improving pressure relief and having less risk of alignment issues.

Phoenix

Got the 2" memory foam topper. My parents who used the latex mattress seemed to soften it up a bit. The polyfoam underneath is still an issue for me (too much upward force). I put the memory foam on top today, I sink a bit but I’m not getting muscle spasms, I just get left leg sciatica which Isn’t as bad as the pudendal nerve symptoms. There’s a central bar in the frame and I can literally feel it on the latex mattress, but I can even feel more support from the center even with the memory foam on top (to counteract the memory foam sink). Though honestly, I think the bed now feels almost the same as the pure 40 ILD latex =/.

The memory foam doesn’t smell as bad as I would have expected but I am feeling slightly nauseous (I was feeling sick yesterday though). The memory foam was produced/made in Canada, does that increase the probability of its safety? I’ll use it as long as I have this musculo-pudendal-sciatic problem, if the nausea is caused by this then I’ll have to buy latex lol. Wouldn’t be a bad idea to stuff this thing between the polyfoam and the latex upper layer though =/. Trial and error I guess. I’m going to drop some weight soon so that may change the whole setup.

Hi Hobotrader,

Yes … especially if it was made by a CertiPur certified* foam manufacturer.

ADMIN NOTE: *Removed 404 link|Archived Footprint: certipur.us/pages/for-industry/find-a-foam-supplier/

At this stage I would agree that some trial and error will be necessary.

Phoenix

Tested the bed out finally:

Memory foam topper - back and glute muscles tightened, got left sciatica. Sleeping on sides pressure pointed shoulders even with the additional 2".

I took the topper off, and muscles started to hurt sleeping on the 40 latex on polyfoam - too firm I’d guess, pressure points while on sides

I’m thinking it’s that polyfoam at the bottom. I’m thinking of extracting it. I had the same pain as sleeping on the cement foam. My question is, I feel less pain when I’m on the floor…

I’ve been sleeping well on my parents spring mattress - firm though I’m sleeping along the width because the foam in the middle has probably caved in. I’m thinking of replacing the polyfoam core with springs…I don’t think my back responds well to foam. Though I do love the latex pillow (I put it under my butt for a bit), it’s very resilient, soft, and springy.

So I learned 2 things, I don’t respond well to memory foam, and I can’t sleep on a polyfoam core because there’s no ‘give’. I need something springy to push back against me, but with more force than the pure 40 ILD latex can give me.

What do you think of a spring core underneath latex? Since I have 4" I can put 2" on either side of a pocket coil mattress. I think once I get this right I’d be set for life since i can make the same ‘perfect’ bed again…

I guess when I’m well enough to travel again I should be well acquainted in sleeping on the floor cuz I can’t tell what the hostels/hotels would use.

Hi Hobotrader,

40 ILD Dunlop would be firmer than most innersprings. Polyfoam also comes in many firmness levels and some of them have much more give than others. Different types of polyfoam (HR vs conventional for example) can also make a big difference.

Latex innerspring hybrids can be a very good design for many people but like any other combination of materials the key is always in the design and layering that provides the best PPP (Pressure relief, posture and alignment, and Personal preferences) for each individual person. Which innerspring and which thickness, ILD, and combination of latex is just as important as the components and materials themselves.

Your design theories are far outside of any “typical” construction I know of and your changes are also rather “random” (and in some cases making assumptions that may not be accurate) so I’m not really following the “theory” or logic behind what you’re doing. Trial and error may be necessary with this approach.

While most springs may not be as firm as the Dunlop … they do have a different compression curve and some people do better with them. Post #16 here and post #2 here talk more about this.

The polyfoam at the bottom would have the least effect of all the layers because it’s the furthest away from you and ultra firm polyfoam on the bottom wouldn’t be much different from having the latex directly on a foundation or on the floor.

That’s the truth … but the trick will be getting it right in the first place :slight_smile:

Phoenix

Well the 40 ILD latex on its own was not firm enough at 6", I thought about it before - putting it on the cement foam is no different than putting it on a solid base or a floor. The 4" on the polyfoam is significantly harder…I get good support but I’m getting pressure points and pain. The 6" pure my lumbar was sinking, especially if I was on my side.

What if I threw in 2 inches of 40 in this current construction? Then the latex would feel like the 6" I slept on that I felt too soft? At this point I wouldn’t venture in putting in such heavy latex, I’ll probably see if I can get 20s.

This cement foam has no give at all…I can sleep on the floor (with a PVC yoga mat) without too many problems. My lumbar hurts but no muscle cramping or spasms. I should theoretically be better off…I wouldn’t say the floor is too firm for me like this bed is lol…which makes no sense. Maybe because there are contact points in the wrong places with a bed because of the give but the floor just hits the bones rather than muscle groups.

At least I know memory foam is no good, my mother said I was sinking too much (and I felt it too). I loved the texture/feel of this latex pillow though. Perhaps I’ll get a 2" topper and if its good then throw it inside the bed? I can even put the latex topper on top of the memory foam to test that out but the bed would be ridiculously tall…

I just see this as one massive setup cost…Just have to get it right just this once. I’m still within budget even after all these re-jiggings. This is probably my most important purchase given my ill health…

Hi Hobotrader,

If the cement foam is under the latex then most of the support would be coming from the latex not the cement foam. I personally think it is probably too firm which is why you are getting pressure points, especially on your side. Your hips/pelvis are supposed to sink in on your side so that the foam can fill in the gap in your lumbar curve and the “cradle” that is formed in the top of the mattress can distribute your weight and relieve pressure. The goal is not to prevent sinking in at all … especially on your side … but to have the right amount of it so you are in good alignment. How evenly you sink in is more important than whether you sink in at all and it’s always the balance between pressure relief and alignment that is the challenge. Pressure points “point to” the latex being too firm and that you are not sinking in enough ,… not the other way around.

I have no idea how it would work for you … “throwing in some stuff” is too vague for me to have any ideas about what it may do. If you add more thickness then you are also adding softness … not firmness.

The bed needs to make contact with other parts of your body besides your pressure points or there would be nothing to re-distribute weight and no pressure relief. This requires more sinking in. Design theory is all about how much so that you find the balance that is best for you between comfort/pressure relief and support/alignment which are inherently opposed to each other. Everything is about where in the range you fall both in terms of pressure relief and alignment.

I really don’t follow a lot of the logic behind your thinking or your choices or even what you believe is best or you but trial and error will get there eventually and at least when it does then you will know.

Phoenix

It is too firm at this point so my logic was throwing some more latex in would give it more room to sink and cradle…4" is probably not enough for this, but 6" is probably too much based on my testing (I sunk out of alignment on sides, I looked in alignment on back but I felt there was too much sink). I somehow thought the cement foam underneath would change the behaviour of the latex on top. I was thinking of using 20 ILD latex on the top 2 inches to counteract any influence of the cement foam at the bottom. For me, during testing 40 ILD latex didn’t prove the support I needed.

As for the muscle spasms perhaps its just due to the firmness cutting off circulation, and because it has enough give to actually firmly contact all points rather than avascular bony ridges as on the floor?

Unfortunately I don’t know of any online do-it-yourself zip quilters in Canada of reasonable prices. That probably would have been my best option because of all the back and forths.

Thanks for your help. I guess I’ll go through the trial and error process again. 2" latex topper.

Hi Hobotrader, Been following your winding journey toward constructing a bed… Going back through the 6 pages I couldn’t figure out exactly which bed or which layers you were now working with. Was wondering if maybe you could list what you have now. I also have a question for you. Have you tried the “classic” latex bed setup? IOW, 3" each, top to bottom: soft Talalay, med Dunlop, firm Dunlop? The reason I ask is I also have a host of back probs, herniated discs, arthritis, sciatica, and so on plus very wide shoulders, and was so sure I’d need some kind of unusual setup for comfort, but it turned out that the “normal” layering mentioned above (with one minor tweak) worked fine! Just an idea. :slight_smile:

IOW? Hmm the thing is, i found the 40 didn’t offer great support when I tested it pure though it was comfortable =/, when placed on the polyfoam core it became too hard. Maybe the ILD the store had received was incorrect? I’ll check Soma again to validate the 40.

Sorry to hear about the health problems, sound similar to mine minus the arthritis. Did you know the ILD of the layers? So you had a 9" latex bed? I’ll see if I can do a progressive construction, basically take a week off and modify the bed while it’s in store, when it works then take it back. Thanks for the help!

What was that minor tweak by the way?

IOW means “in other words” :slight_smile:

Yes, a 9" all-latex bed with the cotton/wool quilted cover. The layers are, top to bottom, 3" each: Talalay Soft 22-24 ILD, Dunlop Medium 30-32 ILD, Dunlop Firm 38-40 ILD. No “blends”; just the natural latex.

My impression is that you can’t get too carried away with ILDs…they’re so subjective and can vary a bit depending on type of latex (a medium Talalay might feel different from a medium Dunlop), the source or manufacturer, plus the natural variations in the material itself. We were lucky that even though the sources were different between what we tried in the store and what we bought online, the bed we ended up with was just as comfortable, or more so.

The minor tweak was, we had the top layer of soft Talalay encased in it’s own separate zippered cotton/wool quilted cover. The reason we did this was during our in-store testing, we both found it more comfortable that way. The top comfort layer felt softer, yet paradoxically, the bottom two layers seemed more supportive. We talked about this in detail in my review thread. So actually I guess you could say we have a 6" bed with a 3" topper. :slight_smile:

Thanks for the info. Heh looks like you hate memory foam as well. I think I might just have a solution for my strange case.

So I checked out Soma sleep again with their 40 ILD sienna model. It’s 2 3" latex pieces…one being support layer, one being comfort, and they place it on a solid base. The beds are beautiful. Those 2 latex pieces are encased in a pouch, and there is an overlying quilting layer on top. The bed was perfect but unfortunately it retails for 2200 for the mattress alone and 2700 for the set…I could buy it but I already have a 1000 sunk cost. I think what made the difference was their velour cotton and wool quilting…I’ll see what modifications I can do with the one I have now, I can’t then I might just pull the trigger there =/. Price tag is a little daunting though but it is perfect. Service was excellent as well but John was not there (he’s knowledgeable). I think what spikes up the prices at Greensleep is that they have to import from Belgium, and make it to the exact specification to keep up with their brand…also the ‘greeneyness’. I’m willing to pay 2.2 x 1.3 grand for good sleep though but I’ll see what I can do with mine. I’ll take it back to the shop and throw in more latex in there. Without the polyfoam that latex is quite soft (40). Anyway I guess my subjective experience is way out of whack so it’ll be hard for anyone to evaluate on here. I’ll keep ti at the factory and bring it back once I feel it’s ‘perfect’ as to minimize the back and forth.

IMO, the quilting layer definitely makes a big difference in how the bed feels. :slight_smile:

Keep us posted!

Thanks…
I will but I’m not too optimistic. I’m surprised as how much variability there is in 40 ILD latex…
This has been brutal, I’m almost tempted to fork over the 2.5k…I think it’ll be my only major purchase this year and its probably one of my most important, I probably won’t have to deal with this problem again for 20 years or so. I’ll speculate around with the modifications for now…Will cost 200.
I wish I lived in the States lol…everything is much cheaper/more accessible.

Hi again,

So I’ve tried out the bed for about 2 weeks now. I notice that I’m rolling into the center and that my laptops sort of sinks/declines in towards the midline of the bed if the laptop isn’t perfectly centered. I’m not sure if this is normal with latex, the suppliers was said to be Dom/Valle foam. After removing the polyurethane, I can actually fall asleep in the bed, but when I wake up, I find that my back is stiff and sore, it’s as if I had slept on a mattress that had sunken (this is why I had to get my Stearns and Fosters replaced). Right now it’s a 6" slab of 40 ILD latex =/…Hmm I think I might have to buy another bed but I’m just very tempted to throw 2" of memory foam and maybe 2" of 26 latex straight onto the floor to prevent further frustration…I was yelled at / chastised by the place that had sold me the bed for wanting to make the modifications so I don’t think I’ll go back to them.The Stearns and Fosters I had last year was perfect for about 4 months (comfort and support - I even did work on the bed and just stayed on there to read)…The Greensleep mattress I tested at Soma felt perfect when I had tried it…this is what’s leading to the question about the latex I have…Though without having fallen asleep on it for 8 hours its hard to tell if I would have gotten the support I wanted, it did feel like it but since I have a 40 I’m skeptical. When I swapped rooms with my parents, their bed had sunken in and had given me similar problems as the current bed, though if I slept along the width of the bed along the edges I was feeling great…It was a spring/foam combo, cheap (material-wise) and from Sears. It is a firm bed. My parents can’t detect the sink that causes me pain, nor could they detect it on my Stearns and Fosters until they’ve slept on it for 3 days and noticed the craters/valleys. Ugh $1250 gone ($850 + $200 memory foam topper + $200 modification (poly out, 2" latex in)). Guess I can consider this a derivative loss…2500 on mattresses I couldn’t use in 2 years lol…Hence the floor suggestion. You don’t have any objections to a comfort layer just placed on the floor do you?