The the only real “guarantee” you have is to actually lie on the combination you are considering either in a storre or at home after the purchase. There are so many variables between people in terms of body shape, weight distribution, sensitivities, and preferences (as you know from your own experience) not to mention specific medical or physiological issues between people that what works for one may not work for another. Sometimes if you are really unsure it can be a good idea to experiment a bit with various toppers that are purchased from a big box store or other retailer that has a great return policy.
The guidelines that I would use for a topper choice though are in post #8 here.
A 2" topper would be a good “standard” choice that is a compromise between improving pressure relief and having less risk of alignment issues.
Got the 2" memory foam topper. My parents who used the latex mattress seemed to soften it up a bit. The polyfoam underneath is still an issue for me (too much upward force). I put the memory foam on top today, I sink a bit but I’m not getting muscle spasms, I just get left leg sciatica which Isn’t as bad as the pudendal nerve symptoms. There’s a central bar in the frame and I can literally feel it on the latex mattress, but I can even feel more support from the center even with the memory foam on top (to counteract the memory foam sink). Though honestly, I think the bed now feels almost the same as the pure 40 ILD latex =/.
The memory foam doesn’t smell as bad as I would have expected but I am feeling slightly nauseous (I was feeling sick yesterday though). The memory foam was produced/made in Canada, does that increase the probability of its safety? I’ll use it as long as I have this musculo-pudendal-sciatic problem, if the nausea is caused by this then I’ll have to buy latex lol. Wouldn’t be a bad idea to stuff this thing between the polyfoam and the latex upper layer though =/. Trial and error I guess. I’m going to drop some weight soon so that may change the whole setup.
Memory foam topper - back and glute muscles tightened, got left sciatica. Sleeping on sides pressure pointed shoulders even with the additional 2".
I took the topper off, and muscles started to hurt sleeping on the 40 latex on polyfoam - too firm I’d guess, pressure points while on sides
I’m thinking it’s that polyfoam at the bottom. I’m thinking of extracting it. I had the same pain as sleeping on the cement foam. My question is, I feel less pain when I’m on the floor…
I’ve been sleeping well on my parents spring mattress - firm though I’m sleeping along the width because the foam in the middle has probably caved in. I’m thinking of replacing the polyfoam core with springs…I don’t think my back responds well to foam. Though I do love the latex pillow (I put it under my butt for a bit), it’s very resilient, soft, and springy.
So I learned 2 things, I don’t respond well to memory foam, and I can’t sleep on a polyfoam core because there’s no ‘give’. I need something springy to push back against me, but with more force than the pure 40 ILD latex can give me.
What do you think of a spring core underneath latex? Since I have 4" I can put 2" on either side of a pocket coil mattress. I think once I get this right I’d be set for life since i can make the same ‘perfect’ bed again…
I guess when I’m well enough to travel again I should be well acquainted in sleeping on the floor cuz I can’t tell what the hostels/hotels would use.
40 ILD Dunlop would be firmer than most innersprings. Polyfoam also comes in many firmness levels and some of them have much more give than others. Different types of polyfoam (HR vs conventional for example) can also make a big difference.
Latex innerspring hybrids can be a very good design for many people but like any other combination of materials the key is always in the design and layering that provides the best PPP (Pressure relief, posture and alignment, and Personal preferences) for each individual person. Which innerspring and which thickness, ILD, and combination of latex is just as important as the components and materials themselves.
Your design theories are far outside of any “typical” construction I know of and your changes are also rather “random” (and in some cases making assumptions that may not be accurate) so I’m not really following the “theory” or logic behind what you’re doing. Trial and error may be necessary with this approach.
While most springs may not be as firm as the Dunlop … they do have a different compression curve and some people do better with them. Post #16 here and post #2 here talk more about this.
The polyfoam at the bottom would have the least effect of all the layers because it’s the furthest away from you and ultra firm polyfoam on the bottom wouldn’t be much different from having the latex directly on a foundation or on the floor.
That’s the truth … but the trick will be getting it right in the first place
Well the 40 ILD latex on its own was not firm enough at 6", I thought about it before - putting it on the cement foam is no different than putting it on a solid base or a floor. The 4" on the polyfoam is significantly harder…I get good support but I’m getting pressure points and pain. The 6" pure my lumbar was sinking, especially if I was on my side.
What if I threw in 2 inches of 40 in this current construction? Then the latex would feel like the 6" I slept on that I felt too soft? At this point I wouldn’t venture in putting in such heavy latex, I’ll probably see if I can get 20s.
This cement foam has no give at all…I can sleep on the floor (with a PVC yoga mat) without too many problems. My lumbar hurts but no muscle cramping or spasms. I should theoretically be better off…I wouldn’t say the floor is too firm for me like this bed is lol…which makes no sense. Maybe because there are contact points in the wrong places with a bed because of the give but the floor just hits the bones rather than muscle groups.
At least I know memory foam is no good, my mother said I was sinking too much (and I felt it too). I loved the texture/feel of this latex pillow though. Perhaps I’ll get a 2" topper and if its good then throw it inside the bed? I can even put the latex topper on top of the memory foam to test that out but the bed would be ridiculously tall…
I just see this as one massive setup cost…Just have to get it right just this once. I’m still within budget even after all these re-jiggings. This is probably my most important purchase given my ill health…
If the cement foam is under the latex then most of the support would be coming from the latex not the cement foam. I personally think it is probably too firm which is why you are getting pressure points, especially on your side. Your hips/pelvis are supposed to sink in on your side so that the foam can fill in the gap in your lumbar curve and the “cradle” that is formed in the top of the mattress can distribute your weight and relieve pressure. The goal is not to prevent sinking in at all … especially on your side … but to have the right amount of it so you are in good alignment. How evenly you sink in is more important than whether you sink in at all and it’s always the balance between pressure relief and alignment that is the challenge. Pressure points “point to” the latex being too firm and that you are not sinking in enough ,… not the other way around.
I have no idea how it would work for you … “throwing in some stuff” is too vague for me to have any ideas about what it may do. If you add more thickness then you are also adding softness … not firmness.
The bed needs to make contact with other parts of your body besides your pressure points or there would be nothing to re-distribute weight and no pressure relief. This requires more sinking in. Design theory is all about how much so that you find the balance that is best for you between comfort/pressure relief and support/alignment which are inherently opposed to each other. Everything is about where in the range you fall both in terms of pressure relief and alignment.
I really don’t follow a lot of the logic behind your thinking or your choices or even what you believe is best or you but trial and error will get there eventually and at least when it does then you will know.
It is too firm at this point so my logic was throwing some more latex in would give it more room to sink and cradle…4" is probably not enough for this, but 6" is probably too much based on my testing (I sunk out of alignment on sides, I looked in alignment on back but I felt there was too much sink). I somehow thought the cement foam underneath would change the behaviour of the latex on top. I was thinking of using 20 ILD latex on the top 2 inches to counteract any influence of the cement foam at the bottom. For me, during testing 40 ILD latex didn’t prove the support I needed.
As for the muscle spasms perhaps its just due to the firmness cutting off circulation, and because it has enough give to actually firmly contact all points rather than avascular bony ridges as on the floor?
Unfortunately I don’t know of any online do-it-yourself zip quilters in Canada of reasonable prices. That probably would have been my best option because of all the back and forths.
Thanks for your help. I guess I’ll go through the trial and error process again. 2" latex topper.
Hi Hobotrader, Been following your winding journey toward constructing a bed… Going back through the 6 pages I couldn’t figure out exactly which bed or which layers you were now working with. Was wondering if maybe you could list what you have now. I also have a question for you. Have you tried the “classic” latex bed setup? IOW, 3" each, top to bottom: soft Talalay, med Dunlop, firm Dunlop? The reason I ask is I also have a host of back probs, herniated discs, arthritis, sciatica, and so on plus very wide shoulders, and was so sure I’d need some kind of unusual setup for comfort, but it turned out that the “normal” layering mentioned above (with one minor tweak) worked fine! Just an idea.
IOW? Hmm the thing is, i found the 40 didn’t offer great support when I tested it pure though it was comfortable =/, when placed on the polyfoam core it became too hard. Maybe the ILD the store had received was incorrect? I’ll check Soma again to validate the 40.
Sorry to hear about the health problems, sound similar to mine minus the arthritis. Did you know the ILD of the layers? So you had a 9" latex bed? I’ll see if I can do a progressive construction, basically take a week off and modify the bed while it’s in store, when it works then take it back. Thanks for the help!
Yes, a 9" all-latex bed with the cotton/wool quilted cover. The layers are, top to bottom, 3" each: Talalay Soft 22-24 ILD, Dunlop Medium 30-32 ILD, Dunlop Firm 38-40 ILD. No “blends”; just the natural latex.
My impression is that you can’t get too carried away with ILDs…they’re so subjective and can vary a bit depending on type of latex (a medium Talalay might feel different from a medium Dunlop), the source or manufacturer, plus the natural variations in the material itself. We were lucky that even though the sources were different between what we tried in the store and what we bought online, the bed we ended up with was just as comfortable, or more so.
The minor tweak was, we had the top layer of soft Talalay encased in it’s own separate zippered cotton/wool quilted cover. The reason we did this was during our in-store testing, we both found it more comfortable that way. The top comfort layer felt softer, yet paradoxically, the bottom two layers seemed more supportive. We talked about this in detail in my review thread. So actually I guess you could say we have a 6" bed with a 3" topper.
Thanks for the info. Heh looks like you hate memory foam as well. I think I might just have a solution for my strange case.
So I checked out Soma sleep again with their 40 ILD sienna model. It’s 2 3" latex pieces…one being support layer, one being comfort, and they place it on a solid base. The beds are beautiful. Those 2 latex pieces are encased in a pouch, and there is an overlying quilting layer on top. The bed was perfect but unfortunately it retails for 2200 for the mattress alone and 2700 for the set…I could buy it but I already have a 1000 sunk cost. I think what made the difference was their velour cotton and wool quilting…I’ll see what modifications I can do with the one I have now, I can’t then I might just pull the trigger there =/. Price tag is a little daunting though but it is perfect. Service was excellent as well but John was not there (he’s knowledgeable). I think what spikes up the prices at Greensleep is that they have to import from Belgium, and make it to the exact specification to keep up with their brand…also the ‘greeneyness’. I’m willing to pay 2.2 x 1.3 grand for good sleep though but I’ll see what I can do with mine. I’ll take it back to the shop and throw in more latex in there. Without the polyfoam that latex is quite soft (40). Anyway I guess my subjective experience is way out of whack so it’ll be hard for anyone to evaluate on here. I’ll keep ti at the factory and bring it back once I feel it’s ‘perfect’ as to minimize the back and forth.
Thanks…
I will but I’m not too optimistic. I’m surprised as how much variability there is in 40 ILD latex…
This has been brutal, I’m almost tempted to fork over the 2.5k…I think it’ll be my only major purchase this year and its probably one of my most important, I probably won’t have to deal with this problem again for 20 years or so. I’ll speculate around with the modifications for now…Will cost 200.
I wish I lived in the States lol…everything is much cheaper/more accessible.
So I’ve tried out the bed for about 2 weeks now. I notice that I’m rolling into the center and that my laptops sort of sinks/declines in towards the midline of the bed if the laptop isn’t perfectly centered. I’m not sure if this is normal with latex, the suppliers was said to be Dom/Valle foam. After removing the polyurethane, I can actually fall asleep in the bed, but when I wake up, I find that my back is stiff and sore, it’s as if I had slept on a mattress that had sunken (this is why I had to get my Stearns and Fosters replaced). Right now it’s a 6" slab of 40 ILD latex =/…Hmm I think I might have to buy another bed but I’m just very tempted to throw 2" of memory foam and maybe 2" of 26 latex straight onto the floor to prevent further frustration…I was yelled at / chastised by the place that had sold me the bed for wanting to make the modifications so I don’t think I’ll go back to them.The Stearns and Fosters I had last year was perfect for about 4 months (comfort and support - I even did work on the bed and just stayed on there to read)…The Greensleep mattress I tested at Soma felt perfect when I had tried it…this is what’s leading to the question about the latex I have…Though without having fallen asleep on it for 8 hours its hard to tell if I would have gotten the support I wanted, it did feel like it but since I have a 40 I’m skeptical. When I swapped rooms with my parents, their bed had sunken in and had given me similar problems as the current bed, though if I slept along the width of the bed along the edges I was feeling great…It was a spring/foam combo, cheap (material-wise) and from Sears. It is a firm bed. My parents can’t detect the sink that causes me pain, nor could they detect it on my Stearns and Fosters until they’ve slept on it for 3 days and noticed the craters/valleys. Ugh $1250 gone ($850 + $200 memory foam topper + $200 modification (poly out, 2" latex in)). Guess I can consider this a derivative loss…2500 on mattresses I couldn’t use in 2 years lol…Hence the floor suggestion. You don’t have any objections to a comfort layer just placed on the floor do you?
I think that your “issues” of sagging into the middle of the bed when you are using your laptop and your “symptoms” are more to do with the design of your mattress and it’s balance of pressure relief and alignment in combination with your body type and the position you are in than with the materials you are using.
Having said that … and as I’ve mentioned before … you are so far outside of any “averages” I know in terms of materials and approach that I don’t think that anything you experience would surprise me
I personally would never “object” to anything that works for someone!
True, this is almost impossible.
I’d sleep on my solid box with 2 toppers on it but I’m afraid I’d break it =/. I could buy a new bed but it doesn’t seem like a wise investment anymore lol…
Yeah, I didn’t expect latex to either, especially not this quick…Took my stearns and fosters 4 months to valley in.
Oh yeah, I put my laptop on the bed with that green dyed water level’er thing, the bubble acts like a reverse compass if it isn’t on the midline of the bed, should technically stay flat. There is sinking without me being on it - the bubble doesn’t stay in the center of the vial…
I’ve also been working on one end of the bed since I can no longer sit down (I kneel by the bed), the latex in the center where I put all my weight is pretty unstable now. I guess latex does soften a bit with use but still…Maybe I can take a crate of metal and just put it on the bed for hours on the entire surface area of the bed so it softens up evenly…And to lose some weight so I don’t indent the bed so much.
Dom foam and Valle foam are basically the same company that produce foams and latex…maybe this isn’t all natural latex? One of the factory owners mentioned this, the other (more knowledgeable one) said it was natural latex). They don’t order the latex direct though, it comes from a supplier. Hmm I’m curious to go to Soma again and try it out but too many family arguments with money (even though its my money and my disposable =/). The soma latex would be 2500, if that doesn’t work…wow…It seems like it would from minutes of testing though. I find sometimes, the longer you have to spend testing a bed, the more you rationalize. I think somehow I can feel whether it’ll be good or not within seconds - thats how I chose the SF bed…but it did cave months afterwards but I was very happy with the purchase (not knowing it would sink later of course). This one not so much with factories its stabs in the dark.
Well, what does the tag/label say on your mattress/layers? It’s pretty important to know what the heck your layers are made of if the mattress isn’t working for you, so you can figure out the problem.
No labels really, its factory made. All I know it’s 40 ILD latex by what they tell me coming from a supplier who gets it from dom foam or valle foam, 6" of it. Only place that carried 40 ILD latex. Soma just started carrying it (but you know whats in there because Greensleep is very strict about where they get the latex, where they make it, and the design specs of the bed) but its 2199 (2500 with tax) for the bed, and 2800 for a set with a solid base lol…Toronto sucks…Most other places just carry 26 ILD, they use it for comfort layers only. I’d have to even out the sink, might not get lots of support but the unevenness bugs me.
