Our research continues. Some thoughts and questions for next steps

Mattress Talk General Mattresses Questions
1

Hello again,

Today we went to visit two local stores in NYC in order to try Latex mattresses.
Dixifoam on 25th street and the Clean Bedroom on 27th. Two very different experiences…

Both stores were empty when we arrived which was great. In Dixie, we tried their Cloud Resthttp://www.dixiefoam.com/mattresses.htm#cloudrest

This was our first encounter with a top latex layer to say the least it wasn’t good : very bouncy that felt like a water bed.
To add to that according to their website site the mattress is: “3” cloud of bouncy latex atop a 5.5" base". After asking about that the saleperson said that he doesn’t know, I but promised to check out and call me back. On his voice mail he said that the mattress base is 5" of 2.8 lb/sqft, second layer is 2" of 1.8lb/sqft and 3" of natural talalay…

We will not buy there . The mattress wasn’t good and we don’t feel they know what they are talking about

Our experience at clean Bedroom was much better. I went tried several mattresses

This is a 2" soft latex on 6" medium, or firm.
Wife liked the “softer” one. I preferred the firmer but wasn’t a fun of both.

http://www.thecleanbedroom.com/Organic_Mattresses/Natural_Latex/Green-Sleep-Ergo-Hevea-Dolcezza-Natural-Latex-Mattress.htm

This one has a soft “pillow top” on top of
Bottom: 1.5 in layer of firm
Middle: 3 in custom
Middle: 3 in custom
Top: 2 in. layer inside the cover (soft)
We liked it this way: top to bottom: soft, firm, medium, firm.
And then there is this one, which is the exact same thing according to the seller without the additional soft pillowtop.
http://www.thecleanbedroom.com/Luxury_Organic_Bedding/Green_Sleep_Vimala_Sleep_System.htm

Here again we tried to versions:
top to bottom: soft, medium, medium, firm.
top to bottom: soft, firm, medium, firm.
Somehow, we both liked the “firmer” one (second option) and thought this was the best mattress with the best support to both of us. BUT- it is EXPENSIVE…

We thought Dixie did a poor job and actually after trying latex there for the first time as a top layer we thought this is not for us. We were pleasantly surprised at Clean Bedroom.
We are still looking to try a good mattress that will be latex over foam (like Dixie’s, or the one online made by the recommended seller here Brooklyn Bedding). We are not sure if Dixie’s wasn’t good, or this will be the feel of any similar mattress.
Actually according to the salesman at Clean Bedroom- he said it shouldn’t be much of a different “feeling” from theirs.
Is this true, or a latex layers on top of foam relay is not for us and we should look at all latex layered one?
If so- where else should we look at?
What are the alternative online, or in NYC for a similar mattress to the Green Sleep Vimala?

Thanks for your thoughts!!

2

Any special reason you’re looking at a 4-layer latex bed? Three 3" layers is enough for most people and would reduce the cost considerably. The Clean Bedroom is on the pricey end of the scale for sure; there are lower-cost options for the same type of bed.

After we first tried all-latex beds at a local store, we went home and talked about what we liked and didn’t like, which gave us some more ideas on how to layer the bed. BTW, you need to know the type of latex in each layer (Dunlop, Talalay, or one of the blends) as well as the firmness. They do feel different, and a little experimenting will determine what works best for you.

We went back to the store and tried our ideas, found the exact layering that worked best for us, and really checked it out thoroughly: made sure we spent enough time on the bed, checked our alignment, and all the other steps recommended by Phoenix. We then ordered a bed with the same specs online (and saved thousands). Very glad we made that second trip to the store, as we ended up very happy with our new bed. Probably spent around 3 weeks researching and shopping but the result was worth it. :slight_smile:

Hope this helps.

3

Hi PhilP,

[quote]Both stores were empty when we arrived which was great. In Dixie, we tried their Cloud Resthttp://www.dixiefoam.com/mattresses.htm#cloudrest

This was our first encounter with a top latex layer to say the least it wasn’t good : very bouncy that felt like a water bed.
To add to that according to their website site the mattress is: “3” cloud of bouncy latex atop a 5.5" base". After asking about that the saleperson said that he doesn’t know, I but promised to check out and call me back. On his voice mail he said that the mattress base is 5" of 2.8 lb/sqft, second layer is 2" of 1.8lb/sqft and 3" of natural talalay…

We will not buy there . The mattress wasn’t good and we don’t feel they know what they are talking about[/quote]

It’s unfortunate that you didn’t meet with Mark there. I think highly of him and the mattresses he makes and he is also very knowledgeable about foams and the materials in his mattresses. His mattresses are also very good quality and value but of course quality and value has little to do with whether a mattress meets the comfort and support needs of any particular person. They are a very small company so perhaps he had a day off or was working on other things. In any case … your experience there was unfortunate.

I would echo Sleepy1’s comments about the rest of your experience as well … testing testing testing and then looking at the common patterns in your testing and using them as pointers even if they don’t “match” a mattress.

[quote]This is a 2" soft latex on 6" medium, or firm.
Wife liked the “softer” one. I preferred the firmer but wasn’t a fun of both.

www.thecleanbedroom.com/Organic_Mattress...l-Latex-Mattress.htm[/quote]

This points to the possibility of a split layering with a common top layer and a firm and medium core on each side. This is made by SleepTek in Canada which uses the same latex supplier as many of the members here (Latex Green). A 6" + 2" latex mattress is a fairly common configuration.

[quote]www.thecleanbedroom.com/Organic_Mattress...l-Latex-Mattress.htm

This one has a soft “pillow top” on top of
Bottom: 1.5 in layer of firm
Middle: 3 in custom
Middle: 3 in custom
Top: 2 in. layer inside the cover (soft)
We liked it this way: top to bottom: soft, firm, medium, firm.
And then there is this one, which is the exact same thing according to the seller without the additional soft pillowtop.
www.thecleanbedroom.com/Luxury_Organic_B...ala_Sleep_System.htm

Here again we tried to versions:
top to bottom: soft, medium, medium, firm.
top to bottom: soft, firm, medium, firm.
Somehow, we both liked the “firmer” one (second option) and thought this was the best mattress with the best support to both of us. BUT- it is EXPENSIVE…[/quote]

GreenSleep is one of the more expensive latex mattresses in the market. They are nice and have a very high quality and costly ticking/quilting but there is nothing particularly special about the latex inside (except the layerering is a little different from most and their soft may be different from other 'soft" Dunlop). In most cases they also suggest the dowel foundation which adds significantly to the expense over just the mattress alone. While the layering inside these is different from anything you would likely find online or even locally … it can till provide a useful general guideline. You also seem to have received some misinformation as well because the layer thickness for the Dolcezza is (from bottom to top) 1.5" / 3" / 3" / 2" for a total of 9.5" and for the Vimala it is (again from bottom to top) 1.5" / 3" / 1.5" / 1.5" for a total of 7.5" (in other words it’s not “the same with the exception of the pillowtop” because both of them have 4 layers but 2 of the layers are a different thickness). Both have soft top layers and firm bottom layers and the middle two layers can be customized.

I would keep in mind that depending on your body weights and sleeping positions that the upper layers will have more to do with the "feel’ of the mattress than the deepest layers. While you would need to do some intuitive “translating” with this one because the layering is different to approximate it using another layering, I would also bear in mind that in almost all cases you are generally only choosing between 2 or 3 basic firmness options with most online purchases (besides the type of latex or the thickness) so if this is the direction you are leaning then all you would really need to do is translate your testing into one of 2 or 3 basic choices in the total thickness you are working with and using the materials you prefer. This makes things simpler because all you really have to do is choose between a few options. I would also make sure you tested some Talalay latex as well so you have a sense of the differences between them.

Both Dunlop and Talalay comes in a range of firmness choices and both this and the type and firmness of the polyfoam underneath it would change the feel of a mattress significantly.

I’m not sure I would agree with this both because the latex may be different in terms of firmness and also because there is a difference between a firm polyfoam support layer and a latex support layer although here too there is a range of firmness possibilities in both materials. It is true though that the closer to the surface a layer is the more it will contribute to the overall “feel” of a mattress for most people.

In terms of layering there probably isn’t one that is exactly the same because it uses layering that is a little different from “the norm”. In terms of “feel” and performance though or what I call PPP (Pressure relief, posture and alignment, and personal preferences) then your own testing will tell you which mattresses feel similar to you. Sometimes different layering can feel very similar but your own body would need to tell you this. I would also keep in mind that if you were to “match” the top 3 - 6" of a mattress (the more the better) in terms of type of latex, firmness level and layer thickness (assuming you tested the Green Sleep on a firm foundation and not their doweled foundations) then for most people this would account for most of the “feel” of the mattress because the bottom layer would have the least overall noticeable effect.

If you are looking at all latex matresses (which is what you seem more focused on) then I would make a point of visiting http://scottjordan.com/ at the very least and testing their latex mattresses and I would also consider testing their innerspring/latex mattresses (NOTE ADDED: They are now a member of this site as well). I would also visit http://www.roomandboard.com/ who also have a 10" latex mattress.

If you are sill working with your original plan (which is a latex/polyfoam hybrid) then I would call and talk with the retailers on the lists and describe the type of mattress you are looking form (3" of latex over polyfoam) and ask them if they have anything like that for you to test that is also in a reasonable budget range.

Phoenix

4

Hi PhilP,

I thought I should add as well that since you have been testing mostly Dunlop Latex that the Ultimate Dreams Natural Latex would probably be the closest “fit” since it uses Dunlop as well in the 3" latex layer and has a wool quilting as well.

If you are uncertain about your choice and need some security about being able to exchange it and are comfortable with using Talalay and not having wool then the Cotton Camilla is their lowest cost mattress with an exchangeable layer.

Phoenix

5

Thanks everyone. We are sure still researching…
I want to try and understand this point better:

[quote]
This is a 2" soft latex on 6" medium, or firm.
Wife liked the “softer” one. I preferred the firmer but wasn’t a fun of both.

www.thecleanbedroom.com/Organic_Mattress...l-Latex-Mattress.htm

This points to the possibility of a split layering with a common top layer and a firm and medium core on each side. This is made by SleepTek in Canada which uses the same latex supplier as many of the members here (Latex Green). A 6" + 2" latex mattress is a fairly common configuration.[/quote]

If I understand you, the differnet “feel” we had between the Dixie Cloud Rest and the Oyasumi is mainly due to Dunlop Vs Talalay?
Or is it due to the core layer: polyfoam vs latex?
I think this is important to understand because it will help us look for other mattresses to try.

There are not many, if any, latex over foam in NYC like Dixie’s or the one from Dreamfoam you mentioned.

Well… that what we have been told: same layers except the additional pillow-top.

No. We did not try it on a firm foundation, and yes, I know it adds to the feel/comfort of the mattress. We asked to try it on a different foundation- but they told us this cannot be done.

To try and summarize, and understand where we should try mattresses, I’d like to say the the following:

  1. even my wife preferred the softer" Oyasumi, she still liked the firmer Vimala better.
  2. The more "complex"layers in it led us to try “simpler” mattresses. We really want to love the Oyasumi or better the latex on polyfoam so we can go and buy online from Dreamfoam. However, as I mentioned our experience at Dixie wasn’t good. We just didn’t like the mattress…! I’m trying to find other in the city that we can try, either with Dunlop top layer or Talalay so we can tell if we really don’t like it, or if it was only Dixie’s “fault”.
  3. We have no specific favour for either organic, natural , talalay, Dunlop, foam etc. We are just looking for the right bed for us at the right price!
  4. I will try to call Brooklyn Bedding and see if they can recommend a similar mattress to the Ultimate Dreams Natural Latex here in NYC, for us to try.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

6

Hi PhilP,

My apologies for missing your post. That’s what comes sometimes from long hours on the forum. I was up for 36 hours without sleep catching up with the forum, research, and other things so I think my blurry eyes went right past your post.

It would be all of the above and more. Dunlop has a different 'feel" from Talalay but layer thickness, layer firmness, the type of support core, the firmness of the support core, and the difference in response between polyfoam and latex in a support core, the wool in the quilting of the Oyasumi, and any difference between the cover fabrics will all play a greater or lesser role in making each of these very different mattresses.

Mattress design and theory is a combination of intuitive processes and technical knowledge and sometimes some seemingly small differences between mattresses (much less many differences) can lead to bigger changes in the feel and performance in how a mattress feels and performs than many people would suspect. If you try several mattresses of a particular design, layering, and ILD and they are all similar to you then you would have a reasonably accurate guideline for what works well for you but the more differences there are in terms of all the fine details of a mattress’ layering or components the more they can feel and perform very differently. In terms of material quality or durability they may be similar but in terms of how they feel they can be very different.

Some of the larger brands make mattresses like this (several inches of latex over polyfoam) such as Restonic, Therapedic, Englander, Southerland, Spring Air, symbol and others. There are also many smaller manufacturers that make this as well (Gold Bond, Ecosleep, Jamison, Pure Latex Bliss, Golden are a few that come to mind) . Even the Dreamfoam may feel different though from what you tried because of potential differences in the firmness of the support core and because they use a different quilting layer. What you are looking for is a general guideline rather than an “exact match” which will only happen if all the materials and components are the same. While different people will be more sensitive to some differences than other … In general the top half of a mattress contributes more to the “feel” than the bottom half but different weights and sleeping positions and styles also makes a difference in how far you sink into a mattress and how much you “feel” the materials beyond the upper layers. If you “bounce” on a mattress for example you will feel the difference in the deeper layers more than if you lie still or just change position. Part of the challenge of an online order is trying to find something similar locally that you can test and in many cases the choice is made based on averages or with the “security” in some cases (when its available) of knowing that you can change a layer if your first choice isn’t quite right. It can take some effort to find a mattress that is similar enough in terms of materials, layering, and firmness levels to provide a good guideline. I would tend to do most of this on the phone as much as possible. My favorite google search when I am looking for possibilities in an area is “mattress, city, state” which will usually bring up most of the choices in an area and then it may be a matter of calling one by one to see who carries mattresses that have the construction you are looking for.

You can see the layering of the Dolcezza here and the layering of the Vimala here.

That is absolutely untrue … except of course they may not do it even though others would. The foundation changes the feel (and the cost) of the mattress significantly compared to a firm rigid foundation.

The Oyasumi would be more of a “standard” layering that would be easier to approximate with a similar 6+2" dunlop latex mattress although this would still be very different from a matress that used a 3" latex top with polyfoam quilting over a polyfoam base layer. the Vimala would take a lot of intuition and knowledge to “translate"into a mattress with completely different layering although as I mentioned if you were able to approximate the top half then it would be closer. If you had soft in both the top layer and the next layer down (the top 3” were soft) … depending on the ILD that they were calling soft, and then used a known ILD in the next layer down then you would know the top 6" of this mattress and this would be a little closer approximation … but only on a firm base not on the doweled base. You would still have to “translate” the difference in feel between Dunlop and Talalay and take into account the difference in feel between a 1.5" polyfoam quilting layer and a thick wool quilting layer but it would at least be an approximation. If you are looking to try to approximate another mattress it’s usually simpler to restrict your testing to similar mattresses so you don’t introduce so many variables and end up being more confused than helped.

Hopefully the suggestions and manufacturers I mentioned will help you to find some mattresses with a similar construction … and if you are looking to “approximate” the ultimate Dreams I would tend to avoid all latex mattresses and as much as possible stick with similar constructions. At least you know there are versions of latex where you like the feel and performance. It may be helpful if you could find out the ILD of the layers in the Vimala you tried, esspecially the top two 1.5" layers.

As much as possible then I would try too stick with testing blended Talalay in the comfort layer since that is what the ultimate Dreams uses. The next closest in terms of “feel” would be 100% natural Talalay.

I doubt that they would know but if they do know of one it would be great if you could share it with us as well as it may help others in a similar position.

Phoenix