Sometimes smaller sleep shops/manufacturers can get overwhelmed with just a few people and it’s normal for many to have only one person on hand. If I was making a special trip I would call ahead and either schedule an appointment or make sure any person with whom you wished to visit was working during your expected arrival to maximize your time. And I would expect they’d eventually want the toppers back, which you could probably arrange if you end up selecting a different mattress.
Your analysis is probably correct – you personally desire a little more surface support and a little less deep down firmness. The plushness of the toppers provided might be too soft for your liking, and even if they were a bit firmer they may not work to your satisfaction with the firmer comfort of the mattress beneath them. The extra comfort from using the thicker latex topper points toward this.
The Katherine comes in different ILDS of latex, so you would be able to choose something with a bit more “surface firmness” than what you have right now using your toppers, and you’d be a bit less “in” the mattress than “on” it. There isn’t a listing for the Natural Escape on their web site, so I can’t comment upon that. At least you have the option to make a change, so that’s a good thing.
“Your analysis is probably correct – you personally desire a little more surface support and a little less deep down firmness. The plushness of the toppers provided might be too soft for your liking, and even if they were a bit firmer they may not work to your satisfaction with the firmer comfort of the mattress beneath them.”
Thank you for putting it concisely - that’s exactly what I was trying to convey. Do you think that a 3" latex hybrid (the Katherine bed) might provide that or would a gel-or memory-foam type bed or latex-combo be a better choice. The Natural Escape mattress is from their sister site’s “My Green Mattress” organic line that is available online and on Amazon Natural Escape
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Do you think that a 3" latex hybrid (the Katherine bed) might provide that or would a gel-or memory-foam type bed or latex-combo be a better choice. The Natural Escape mattress is from their sister site’s “My Green Mattress” organic line that is available online and on Amazon Natural Escape
The number one rule is that only you can feel what you feel and I can’t recommend a product for someone online – I can only assist in “how” to choose.
Going back to your original post, you don’t like to “sink in” to a product, so a typical memory foam style of mattress would typically be in that category, so you may wish to put those styles of mattresses lower on your list.
Also going back to your original post, you chose a “firm” mattress in the Emily, and the one you received was even firmer than the showroom model, so even with a topper you’re on something that you describe as a bit too hard right now.
Between the Katherine and the Natural Escape, the Natural Escape uses 3" of plush (18-22 ILD) Dunlop latex, which would tend to feel a bit firmer than the same ILD of Talalay. The innerspring unit is a pocketed coil unit and zoned in the middle third. The Katherine also uses 3" of latex, but it is Talalay, and you can choose from 24, 32 or 40 ILD. I would find out the ILD of the toppers you’ve been provided and consider going with something just a bit higher in ILD. I’m thinking that your topper might be in the upper teens. The pocketed coil innerspring unit is also zoned in the middle third, but it is a slightly lower spring count (assuming they are quoting for the same size).
Based upon your comments it is reasonable to assume that both of the mattresses will do a better job at providing a bit of a more “surface support” and will not feel quite as “firm” deep down. Which one may or may not be best for you would be again up to you and your own personal testing. At least you have a good idea of what doesn’t work for you, which sometimes is just as valuable as knowing what does work.
A very frustrating update. Visited QSS earlier last week to try the Katherine latex mattress AGAIN. It felt very comfort for the 15-20 minutes I tried it - much better than the Emily one we had (which we had added their topper to). AND I could use a lower pillow instead of the super-high one I’d been using to relief the pressure on my torso - yay!
Deciding between the Katherine soft or medium, Tim said if I was still having hip/thigh discomfort on their Emily mattress with the topper, the Katherine Medium would likely not be any better and strongly advised me to go with the soft. The Katherine is advertised as Talalay latex online and in the store but when I asked about specifics , he said it’s actually a “very nice” Dunlop latex. Now I’m confused but needs some relief so paid the extra $750. Tim gave us free delivery since they were going to be in the area in lieu of the Mattress Underground discount on the higher-priced bed.
The Katherine was delivered yesterday much to my jubilation - couldn’t wait for a good night’s sleep! The mattress felt great and I fell asleep right away. Several hours later, felt like I was sleeping in a trench, with so much pressure on my torso that I went back to the high pillow. When that didn’t relieve the mattress pressing against my side, I finished out the night on the couch (cushions are a thick, firm foam - very comfortable - no sinking, no push-back torso pain). I really am at a loss - Do we just find a cheap foam mattress? I thank you so much for this forum. Hopefully, my experience may help someone else.
I’m sorry you’re still not finding a product that is comfortable.
It seems that you describe issues in two areas – hip and torso.
The initial softness of the products you’re trying seems to agree with you, but as the night goes on it “seems” as if you’re describing that you’re sensitive to the feel on your torso. As these foams are not temperature sensitive, they’ll feel the same in the middle of the night as they do when you first lie down. So it still may be an issue, as I mentioned previously, that you need a bit of a firmer feel on the surface but then a bit of plushness below, and maybe a bit more padding material overall (to minimize a bit what you might be describing of the “push back” of the innerspring unit). Or perhaps you don’t like the resilience of latex, and would be happier with polyfoam for a comfort material. Or maybe you would prefer a mattress that doesn’t use innersprings but instead a support core of latex or polyfoam. You may wish to go back to trying a mattress more along the lines of the traditional product you had previously and try to recreate something like that using quality materials.
Unfortunately, as I stated previously, I really can’t diagnose with “theory at a distance”. I wish I had better suggestions for you than these general “averages”.
If it can be any comfort, I’ve been having a very similar saga. I too have a Katherine soft, which I’ve been sleeping on for the past four months. I am 5’3, 120 lbs, and I think it is just too much bed! I tried the Katherine medium for over a year and it was too firm, causing aching shoulders so bad I couldn’t sleep much past 4 am because of discomfort… A variety of topper or pillows couldn’t fix the problem. I switched to the Katherine soft and though I can now sleep through the night, I still have super tight shoulders that I have to spend all day stretching.
I just spent a week at a hotel sleeping on a super cheap-looking, 6", spring coil sofa-bed mattress. It is the kind that is super bouncy and squeaks like crazy when you move and you can feel the coils. I thought I’d be miserable the whole week. Instead the very next day I woke up utterly relieved from the shoulder tightness and felt 10 years younger! I noticed my hips sunk better on this tiny mattress, taking the pressure off my shoulders when side-sleeping. I also noticed the springs firmly pushed back on my bones. It’s this elusive sinking and yet solid pushback combo I’m desperate for.
I wonder if the 3" of a comfort layer on the Katherine is just too much for petite people? Or could it be that the Katherine’s powerstack foundation is too stiff and doesn’t let petite hip’s sink enough when we barely reach it through the thick comfort layer? Either way I don’t see how to make the mattress work.
I feel like most mattresses options are geared for large men. I’d like to find a simple spring mattress with just a 1.5" latex comfort layer, 19 ild or less, but haven’t seen one. I’d love to hear if you have a breakthrough!
Thanks for your sharing your experiences and input. Unfortunately, there really is no one style that fits specific sized people, such as those who are petite, due to the individual preferences, levels of fitness, flexibility, body shapes and pre-existing health conditions, just to name a few things.
Major mattress brands tend to be geared more toward “averages”, as are many of the “simplified choice” mattresses, trying to hit more of the middle of the bell curve of comfort. But when you mentioned the 1.5" on top of a spring unit, I remembered Luma Sleep off of the top of my head the lumasleep.com ~ Base Luma Mattress. You may wish to look into that.
I so appreciate you taking the time to share with me your experience with the Katherine soft mattress! I’m sorry to hear of your difficulty finding a comfortable mattress and appreciate your empathy and helpfulness. It really is comforting.
I’m curious if Quality Sleep Shop exchanged your mattress without much difficulty. I’m so afraid of being stuck with this mattress! I thought I’d give it two weeks to “get used to it” before I called them back. I think I’m just finding the latex very uncomfortable - the resilience, perhaps, as Phoenex put it. Tim thought that I needed the extra cushioning as I was still having some side hip and thigh pain with the 3" combination of the Emily bed and topper. But the pushback from the sinking on this bed is so strong it hurts. I can’t seem to find a pillow that makes this bed work for me either.
You make a good point mentioning the “posturized” coils which are tighter through the center third to support that part of your body - Phoenix mentioned that too. Maybe it’s too much for us petite people.
I’ve never had problems sleeping on hotel beds either! The main drawback for me is the motion transfer from my husband moving around a lot. So . . .I will be giving Tim a call this week and hope I can exchange this for a model that will be more comfortable. I’ll certainly let you know!! Thanks, again!
I think I got my latex mattress choice SO wrong for so long by being thrown off by the terms “medium” and “soft.” When I visit mainstream mattress stores, my experience is soft is VERY soft. I’m thinking of the polyfoam pillowtops that are nice at first but wear down and have led me to wanting something more medium and durable.
When I decided to experiment with latex, a material new to me, I ended up WAY overshooting by trying beds that were described as “medium” with top layers that were between 28-32 ild. I liked how firm they felt (I still do, despite by body screaming otherwise in the morning), plus I thought I could fix my side with a topper while my husband, who is 5’9, 160 lbs, would be just fine. I never figured out why all the toppers of various heights and densities couldn’t work–pressure points were fixed but then my spine ached. My theory is that when your petite, 3" is already quite far away from the base layer, and adding an extra inch or two just adds new problems.
What was humbling to learn when I finally switched to the Katherine soft, and I should have known better, is just because a bed is called soft, it can still be SUPER firm if you are low weight. Again, when I lie down I like the quiet, solid, firmness of this bed, but the fact is my body is so stiff in the morning. 24 Ild of talalay latex (or dunlop which I too have a suspicion is in my Katherine). is still WAY WAY too firm. I’m STILL NOT in the ball park. Interestingly, the Natural Escape has a top layer of dunlop with an 18-22 ILD. Its product description makes clear it is medium firm, and so I steered away from it, but it must be similar to the “soft,” or what it know listed as the “plush,” Katherine (24 ILD talalay). Silly me for letting the product description make me hope it would be be soft for me and allow the right sinkage. Now I’m adamant about first paying attention to the actual ILD.
I think petite people–say 130 lbs or less starting at 5’0–interested in experimenting with latex should start with top layers that are in the 13 to 19 ILD range, preferably 13 and preferably talalay which seems to have more give than dunlop for lighter bodes. I think the thickness of that layer and the firmness of what’s underneath would all have to be tweaked, but something in that range is at least a good starting point for the right sinkage, and would help avoid all the time and expense of trying things WAY out in left field. Soft latex is such a different animal compared to soft polyfoam or soft cotton or wool batting for petite people. (I think hotel beds do not hurt us because they have all that fluffy polyfoam in the pillowtops–as petites it’s no problem to deal with that. Latex is exotic for us, I swear! Even the utterly thin and flimsy innerspring of my most recent hotel stay was fine and welcome my by body compared to my super high quality latex hybrid/so-wrong-for-me bed ).
Another reason I think petites new to latex get it quite wrong is that ILDs of 13 to 19 in the comfort layer don’t seem that common. When I ran across them in my search for a latex bed, those low ILDs seemed extreme.
I would ask Tim if he has mattresses with latex top layers that are between 13 and 19 ild and if there are floor models to try out. When I read their mattress specs, it seems that very low ILDs are not available, just taller and taller toppers.
I too get seriously stressed out by having to return things–it’s such a headache and takes so much time and energy for everybody. I think I used up all my good graces by returning my medium ONE YEAR later. Tim was EXTREMELY kind to put in a soft layer after all that time, but when I received it and called him distraught knowing it was still much too firm, he was clear I would have to bring in the mattress myself–even though I said I didn’t mind how much it would cost–if I wanted a customized layer of 19 ILD or less. My husband and I can barely rotate the thing, let alone get it into a rental truck and drive the 50 miles.
For now I’m sleeping on our guest bed–a Brooklyn Bedding 3" inch blended talalay latex topper (19 ild) on top of a super stiff Tuft and Needle bed from 2013. This feels fine. Just looking for something less cut-and-paste.
Meanwhile, I wold love to hear what you end up with!
Thank you for taking the time to relate your experiences with the different comforts of different materials.
You bring up an excellent point that there are no “standard” definitions or consensus of opinions for firmness ratings (even within people of the same mass/BMI) and different manufacturers (and foam companies) can rate their mattresses very differently than others so a mattress that one manufacturer rates as being a specific firmness could be rated very differently by another manufacturer.
Different people can also have very different perceptions of firmness and softness compared to others as well and a mattress that feels firm for one person can feel like “medium” for someone else or even “soft” for someone else (or vice versa) depending on their body type, sleeping style, physiology, their frame of reference based on what they are used to, and their individual sensitivity and perceptions.
There are also different types of firmness and softness that different people may be sensitive to that can affect how they “rate” a mattress as well (see post #15 here ) so different people can also have very different opinions on how two mattresses compare in terms of firmness and some people may rate one mattress as being firmer than another and someone else may rate them the other way around. And as you stated, a polyfoam piece rated as “medium” can feel quite different from a latex piece rated as “medium”. And Dunlop latex will tend to feel “firmer” than Talalay latex of the same ILD.
This is all relative and very subjective and is as much an art as a science, and in the end the only reliable way to know whether a mattress will be “firm enough” or “soft enough” for you will be based on your own careful testing or your own personal experience. Thank you for sharing yours!
Here’s a little update that I thought you might be interested in: I received an email from Quality Sleep Shop asking me to post feedback on the Katherine mattress on their new site. I hate leaving negative reviews so I emailed them back regarding the suitability of this mattress for petite people, the latex “pushback” against my torso, etc. Tim called to tell me that they are making some new “prototypes” this week with a different, softer spring system. This may be helpful for you as well. I tend to think that it’s more the Dunlop latex than the springs that’s the culprit in my case but worth a try.
Thank you for the update. I have been aware of some of the changes at QSS. I’ll be interested in any of your comments/feedback should you visit there again.
Update - Went back to QSS yesterday to try new prototype beds - actually there was just one. I thought it was going to be a “new” Katherine similar to the one Maybe54 and I had selected only softer but it was their new “Katherine Gel” which we were considering anyway. The old Katherine Gel, revisited, was firm.
This one uses a lighter-weight coil system base with 1" of 14 ILD Dunlop latex and 1" of 4 lb. memory foam and then wool over it. First impression was that there is only a couple inches of comfort layers here. It was comfortable but “sinking” and after lying there awhile, still was feeling the push against my torso. With our current Katherine mattress you feel the softness and then it stops when you hit the bottom of it. With this new Katherine Gel model, you don’t hit that bottom.
When going back and forth in the showroom comparing this prototype Katherine Gel to our current Katherine mattress there was no comparison regarding the luxurious feel of our Katherine quilted top to the flat foam of the prototype. I queried Tim about the possibility of a “Katherine-style quilted top” over this prototype and he thought that would defeat the purpose of sinking into the mattress and make it feel harder - but it sounded good to me.
The lighter-weight coil system seems to be a good idea for us lighter-weight people but we weren’t really impressed with this new model overall. Maybe with some added inches of comfort layers or a quilted top. I just doesn’t seem very substantial. As an aside, bought some new wool-filled pillows while we were there - husband love his, mine - because it wasn’t high and hurting my neck (I love a “low” pillow), didn’t take the pressure off my body enough, I guess, and made our mattress much more uncomfortable. Back to the drawing board. Never thought that finding a mattress would be this much of an ordeal. I so appreciate your “listening” and any input, Phoenix.
Thanks for your update. I’m glad you were able to try out one of the new prototypes, but I’m sorry it wasn’t for you.
It seems from your descriptions that a less robust support system agrees with your particular needs. I don’t know what options you still have with QSS, but your thought of having more substantial comfort layers combined with their newer spring unit would be an interesting combination for you. They have to design their mattresses to apply to a larger set of people, so your needs may not be something that they think would be viable or appropriate for their main lineup, but I don’t know if there are options for what they could create for you.
This may not help but my husband and I after researching here went to Quality Sleep Shop and purchased right before Christmas the Emily pillow top which is now the plush. I could not sleep on it as it hurt my sides. My husband loved it. In fact I thought they delivered the wrong bed.
We called the owner who told us he would exchange it but it would soften in several weeks and feel like the display. I could not sleep on it so I purchased a 1 inch talalay topper from foamorder.com? It was okay but I took the topper off after 6 weeks and now love the bed. I found Quality to be totally honest and had such a wonderful
experience with Quality Sleep Shop.
The bed now feels like the one in the store, but it did take a while. The topper was never as comfortable as it is now without it as it got hot and the stitching in the wool and bamboo cover on the mattress really adds comfort. The owner for a small price offered us this cover as we wanted a more natural cover.
I can’t believe how the bed was literally too painful for me to sleep on and now I love it.
I appreciated the owners honesty and assistance afterward.
What has happened to me that I find every word of this fascinating?! I too am sorry that you’re back to the drawing board. I wish the prototype went softer just by using 3" of a softer latex, then I could test my theory about needing softer latex, or if it really is the the springs that are the culprit.
The prototype reminds me of the Casper’s comfort layers: 1.5 inches of 13 ILD Dunlop, over 1 inch of memory foam (polyfoam as the base layer). We tried the Casper for a few months and we really loved the feel of it. But alas, we had the memory foam problem of feeling stuck in the bed and having a hard time turning around, and I had stiff shoulders all day, which for means TOO firm. (BTW we found Brooklyn Bedding’s medium too firm as well).
I have decided to try the Luma mattress, knowing my shoulders start agreeing with latex when it is 19 ILD talalay or softer, but I"m nervous the springs will be too stiff for me. I know from that last hotel visit that I"m fine with almost no comfort layer if the springs are super squishy to sink into, and I’m close enough to feel them push back. If the Luma is too firm, I think the 1.5" top layer is short enough that I can add a 1" topper without causing other problems. I"d really like to find a springs + latex combination that works.
I wonder if you feel the pressure on your torso because you’re pretty even in the hips and shoulders? I am very small framed up top and have large hips proportionally. I think when my hips can’t sink into the material I"m slanted downward and all the pressure goes to my shoulders.
Meanwhile! I hope you find a good lead and get some good rest soon!
Thank you for your comments about your experience with the breaking-in of your Quality Sleep Shop Emily mattress. Your experience is a very good example of the time it takes for materials, especially higher quality ones, to adjust in a mattress (as well as you adjusting to the new mattress). And your example of “buying yourself some time” with the thin topper is a common practice by many who need help adjusting to a mattress that is more supportive/firmer than what they were used to sleeping upon.
Thanks again for taking the time to share your experiences, and I’m glad you’re now sleeping well.
As a note for anyone reading this in the future, Casper’s current layers are 1.5" 3.5 lb ventilated polyfoam, 1.5" 4 lb 10 ILD Memory foam, 1.5" 2.5 lb polyfoam and a 5" 1.5 lb 36 ILD Polyfoam support core.
I wouldn’t hesitate to give Luma (a new site member, by the way) a call before placing your order to learn more about their spring unit. It is supposed to be quite contouring, but as you’re already well aware, your own careful personal testing will be the final judge. It sounds like your description of the last hotel bed you tried is on where the springs have less resilience (what people often refer to as the “push back”.
If your hips are not allowed to sink in deeply enough, it can negatively impact your alignment, and will also not allow as much of your body at rest to be in supportive contact with your mattress, which can have the sensation of your hips and shoulder “bearing” too much of your weight. What you’re experiencing and describing does make sense.
I’ll be interested in learning about any conversation you may have with Luma, and any reactions you have with any new combinations you try. I appreciate you taking the time to provide the detailed feedback of your experiences.
It’s been a while but just wanted to update you and The Mattress Underground. We spent the summer abroad and slept wonderfully with family and on Airbnb beds! So now back home to our Quality Sleep Shop’s Katherine “Plush” mattress and it STILL hurts. I am more convinced than ever that the mattress we received was not the same one as we spent an hour or so trying. I remember that the sign posted in front of the mattress at their showroom listed “Talalay Latex” but we asked about details, Tim said it was actually a “nice Dunlop” with different specs. (I really don’t know what we actually received - it was very confusing).
I finally got up the nerve to call Tim and explain our dilemma - that this bed, similar to the first Emily mattress that we got from them, felt nothing like the showroom model. Even with the topper, it was extremely hard. I haven’t slept well since we’ve been back home. We needed some direction and help.
Tim said that there was nothing - NOTHING - that they could do for us because we had the mattress too long and he could no longer re-sell it (!) Re-sell a USED mattress!? I know that Maybe54 had mentioned that Tim was receptive to her situation after returning their mattress one year later (in her 2/28/17 post) so I’m wondering why we are being treated differently.
So, we are out more than $1500, as well as all of the time and energy and the going back-and-forth 50 miles each time. That’s tough on us seniors, especially. The lack of sleep since we’ve had this mattress has negatively impacted our health. We had trusted Quality Sleep Shop.
So, we are shopping again for a new mattress, possibly just a regular innerspring. The mattress chains we’ve visited have provided wonderful, personalized service and recommendations. Pure Sleep actually has a mattress that you lie down on which takes computerized measurements of your body! They also have many more models to choose from. I don’t know if their mattress will feel like the showroom models or not so we may try one of the many online mattress companies. Their return policies are fantastic and they seem to stand by their products.
Best to you, Maybe54! I’m curious to know if you’ve found “the one”
I had to go back to previous posts and contact QSS to make sure I was accurate with my timeline, so I apologize for my delay in commenting upon your post.
I hope you had a fun time in Europe this summer. I’m sorry you still don’t like the comfort of the Katherine Latex Soft mattress that you chose, but hopefully you were able to gather some information about the many beds you sampled in Europe, or at least have a grasp on the comfort that you preferred.
QSS changed over from Talalay to Dunlop at the beginning of 2017, so your mattress most likely contains Dunlop latex. Regardless of Dunlop or Talalay, the floor models were representative of what they were shipping, and a Plush latex mattress, whether Talalay or Dunlop, will still be a quite soft product.
There is always a break-in period for any new mattress where it loses its “false firmness” and this can be anywhere from a few weeks to a few months, depending upon configuration and materials being used, as well as the top of bed products being used at home.
It’s curious that it would take you about 9 months to “get up the nerve” to contact QSS, when you did so after only a few weeks of having your original mattress. Even with your summer travels, you had plenty of time in the winter and spring to contact them with any concerns regarding your product.
QSS does not resell mattresses. They donate them to charity if they fall within the original comfort exchange plan. I asked Tim about this, and when asked about you returning a second mattress, his statement of, “It’s not like we can sell it or anything,” was meant to convey that there is no value in a mattress 300 days old and it’s even beyond the timeframe where they can donate it to their local charity. So this is a misinterpretation of his statement.
You’re being treated exactly according to the return/exchange policy that QSS maintains.
Around December 2016 you purchased the standard Emily mattress from QSS. You felt that it was not a proper fit and wanted something softer, so you came back and chose the Katherine Latex Soft as a replacement product. The Katherine is offered in a Soft, Medium and Firm (all three are featured on QSS showroom floor), and in choosing the Soft you selected something that is significantly more plush than your original Emily mattress. Your replacement mattress was delivered January 10, 2017.
You next contacted QSS in November of 2017 (approximately 300 days after your original purchase) complaining that you were having issues and wanted a full refund for your mattress, which QSS denied per their 100 night trial policy, which is clearly posted on their web site, and you had already taken advantage of the one mattress exchange allowed per this policy. Which brings this to the present day.
I don’t know why you would expect QSS to extend their policy by 200 days and add an extra exchange (or a full refund). A business is under no obligation to modify their stated policies, and doing so for one (or multiple) customers would be no guarantee or entitlement that they would do so for anyone else. The reasoning for such policy exceptions are of course at the discretion of the business and the specific situation in question, including even the disposition of the consumer, but in the end it is a subjective determination the business alone is entitled to make, not the consumer (but requests of course can politely be made and it never hurts to inquire). Having clearly defined return/exchange policies serve as both protection for the consumer as well as the retailer.
I’m sorry that the mattresses you chose didn’t work out for you, but despite your efforts to pick out something that you thought you might like, and QSS providing you two different products, there of course is no guarantee of comfort and appropriateness, and even with an exchange option, it’s part of the risk when purchasing any product that is subjective in nature.
As you’re starting your search process again, be sure to refer back to the mattress shopping tutorial and the steps listed there to assist you along the way.
Most of the pressure mapping systems are specific to a certain line of mattress and aren’t really relevant to mattresses as a whole which have different constructions. They also only measure surface pressure (which you can often feel in your own personal testing) but don’t provide input into alignment or how the pressure is distributed in the deeper body tissues or include the differences in physiology between people (pressure affects different people differently). There are a few more comments in post #2 here and post #4 here about pressure mapping systems.
