I have read through these forums extensively and understand the beef with Charles P. Rogers. The main concern seems to be that they don’t tell you the specs of the foam used in the mattresses. However, I can’t find any stories about their mattresses actually failing quickly, or anything negative except for scattered stories about delivery and customer service issues. I find the latter for any company with a substantial footprint.
My partner and I just moved to New York and left our six year old mid-range department store mattress behind with plans to upgrade. We are not willing to buy a mattress online, even if it has a good reputation and return policy. I live in a walk up in Manhattan and I don’t have room for more than one bed. That leaves us with local sellers. We hate memory foam, so I narrowed it to CPR, Nest (showroom downtown), and Berkeley Ergonomics (at Scott Jordan).
We loved the mattresses at CPR, hated them at Nest (almost all too soft, and overall just not as comfortable. I would say they felt cheap.). We liked one Berkeley mattress–the Oslo–but no more than the CPR Estate 5000. We didn’t like any of the other Berkeley models, mostly due to softness. The service at Scott Jordan was also terrible: the salesperson didn’t even come downstairs, and half-heartedly answered my questions while walking away once I came back up. It would be very hard to justify spending $900 more for the Berkeley setup compared to the CPR, given that we liked them equally and received great service at the CPR showroom.
Am I missing something here? I am annoyed by the lack of transparency as well, but it doesn’t seem like there are any actual problems of substance that arise from it.
I don’t have a “beef” with Charles P. Rogers as a brand. In fact, if you perform a forum search on Charles P. Rogers (just click on the link), you’ll see that I have some comments that some of their mattresses do use good quality materials. The thing that I always recommend is that you find out about the information listed here about any mattress and compart that information to the durability guidelines here to make sure there are no lower quality materials within a mattress before making a purchase, and if you’re not able to find out all of that information, I’ll advise caution against purchasing such an item. Charles P. Rogers isn’t complete with their specifications on their web site, but some site members have been able to acquire more complete information about certain mattresses they were considering, but much of the information here on the site is dated and specifications are changed by manufacturers quite frequently, so I would advise you to inquire personally at any store you were visiting for these specifications.
Reviews or comments such as you’re referencing are the least reliable indicator of the quality of a mattress or the appropriateness of any item for your specific needs. Every “negative” review isn’t reported, just as every “positive” experience is also not shared. Even if there was some sort of complete clearinghouse of data regarding the performance of every item purchased from any brand, this data would be mostly meaningless, as it would generally be provided in the short term by those unqualified to render an educated analysis of the product.
While other people’s comments about the knowledge and service of a particular business can certainly be very helpful, I would always keep in mind that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and I would be cautious about using anyone else’s suggestions, experiences or reviews on a specific mattress (either positive or negative) or review sites in general as a reliable source of information or guidance about how you will feel on the same mattress or how suitable or how durable a mattress may be for you. In many if not most cases they can be more misleading than helpful because a mattress that would be a perfect choice for one person or even a larger group of people in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your own Personal preferences) may be completely unsuitable for someone else to sleep on (even if they are in a similar weight range). In other words … reviews or other people’s experiences in general won’t tell you much if anything about the suitability, quality, durability, or “value” of a mattress for any particular person (see post #13 here).
I’m glad you were able to try out some items in person. Since you seem to have ruled out the Nest Bedding, you’re left with the CPR Estate 5000 and the Berkeley Ergonomics Oslo.
The Oslo uses a nested pocketed coil unit made in Germany, and on top of that is 2" of 100% NR Talalay latex from Radium. The cover is organic cotton and the wool quilted to the covering is pure Plein Air wool. I’m not sure if you looked at the item with their tension adjustable slat system or a simple foundation, but this can also influence the overall comfort.
You’d want to find out more details about the CPR Estate 5000, as the web site only lists the Active Powercore 2 spring unit, an Extra Firm layer of Talalay Latex described as “Pure” (you’d want to find out if it is blended or natural for help with drawing comparisons), and 25 mm (1") of quilt padding.
I’m sorry the service you received while looking at the Oslo mattress wasn’t what you had desired. As far as comparing both mattresses, without knowing the complete specifications, it makes that a difficult proposition as part of your personal value equation to be able to objectively compare two products, although in-store service can also be part of your value equation. The issue with “liking both items equally” is that you can’t feel quality or durability, which is why I encourage everyone to become educated about product specifications before making a final purchase.
I would again advise to become familiar with the complete specifications of any mattress you are considering before making a purchase.
Knowing the entirety of what problems do and don’t arise from any particular brand is something you wouldn’t be able to know with certainty, for the reasons I pointed out earlier, so acquiring product specifications gives you your best chance for success regarding durability.
You’re of course welcome to purchase anything based on feel and what you consider to be a “preponderance of evidence”, but it’s just not the process that I advise for people here on the forum.
Thanks for the response, and for the website. I didn’t mean to imply that the beef is unfair, just that I understand the criticisms.
I did follow up with a CPR online sales rep today. He told me that the Talalay latex is all natural and that the foam encasement is 5 lb density foam made in New Jersey.
I do think that the Oslo was on the slat system, but I didn’t learn about it until after we had left the store and I was online.
It seems like the main differences are the coils–I assume that the more complex-looking coils on the Oslo are also more expensive–and the foam encasement. Since the foam seems relatively high density and I don’t hear a lot about CPR mattresses falling apart (point taken about that being a lousy metric, but I’d still worry if I DID hear that a lot), I’m feeling ok about the durability.
Without knowing the information listed here about all of the layers in the mattress, one can’t make an accurate deduction about durability.
I’m thinking that the sales rep may have provided some inaccurate information about the foam edge encasement, as that would most likely be a polyfoam, and the density would more than likely be in the 1.5 - 1.8 lb range. 5 lb density would generally be reserved for better memory foam or latex, both of which are not used for edge reinforcement. The Talalay latex is the 100% NR version, and tht would be a good quality material.
If you are able to find out the complete information about the layers within this mattress, please feel free to list them here and I can provide commentary on them, and the information can be shared here with others on the forum.
You’ll want to know every layer that is in the mattress, from the bottom to the top. Right now you know about the innerspring unit (rarely the weak link within a mattress), and on top of that seems to be a layer of natural Talalay latex (how thick?). Then there seems to be the quilt panel, but you haven’t mentioned what foam is quilted to the underside of the ticking on the quilt panel. I believe this is 1" (25 mm) of some sort of polyfoam, and you’d want to know the density. Also, you’d want clarification on the foam edge reinforcement, because 5 lb density wouldn’t be a normal polyfoam density. As they are incomplete on their web site about layerings, I’m not sure if I’m missing anything else.
Feel free to post back anything you’re able to find.
Based on the cutouts in the showroom and my conversation with the rep, there is “5 lb” density (I assume meaning 5 lbs/cubic ft) 1 inch thick foam encasement around the 8 inch spring core and a 2 inch “34 ILD” natural Talalay latex (“okeo-tex certified,” which I’m not sure is meaningful) on top of the foam. The 7000 has an extra layer of softer latex (another inch of 24 ILD, I think), and the 9000 yet another layer of latex gel. I wasn’t interested in them, so didn’t take notes.
The fabric above the latex seemed so thin in person that I ignored it, but the website says: “340 gram circular knit with 25 mm hypo-allergenic quilt padding.” Again I’m having trouble separating marketing jargon from important points. I didn’t notice foam between the latex and the fabric on top in the store cutout, and the rep didn’t mention it when I asked about layers.
As I mentioned previously, I think you are receiving incorrect information on the density of the foam edge reinforcement. Even high-resiliency polyfoam is commonly at 2.5 lb density, and it is rare for a manufacturer to use even that high of a density polyfoam for an edge reinforcement. The normal density range for conventional flexible polyfoams is .8 to 2.5, and 5 lb is not a normal density for flexible polyfoam used in a mattress. I know you’re not sleeping upon the edge of the mattress, but you still would desire accurate information. And the edge reinforcement is usually thicker than 1" (see attached photo).
The ILD (a comfort spec) speaks to the plushness of the Talalay latex, and a 34 ILD would be considered a firmer level of comfort (forum members have mentioned 32 ILD previously). Oeko-Tex refers to one of the safety certifications available in the marketplace, and it tests for VOCs and harmful substances. Most latex you encounter will have some sort of safety certification, and this is a nice thing to have.
Yes, the “quilt panel” refers to the top layer of the mattress, specifically the ticking (covering) and what is stitched beneath that to form a single layer. It is usually backed with some sort of a non-woven material, so it can make it difficult to determine what is directly underneath the ticking. In this case, as I mentioned previously, there is 25 mm (approximately 1") of some sort of material under the ticking, but at only1" probably isn’t thick enough to be a specific weak link in the mattress.
Overall, I think there may be a layer of foam missing in what you’ve been provided for this mattress. It is rated at 13.5" overall. The spring unit is 8". The latex is 2". The quilt would be a maximum of 1" (probably a bit thinner). The foam encasement under the springs is probably 1". This brings us to approximately 12". I mention this whenever these is a discrepancy in adding the components up and the completed mattress height, as you want to make sure you know about everything that is within a mattress.
I’ve attached a photo from a CPR showroom of an Estate 5000 Firm cutout, and it seems to show another layer of polyfoam above the innerspring unit. It’s possible that this is the missing layer to reach the finished height, but I can’t be sure, as CPR doesn’t list complete specifications on their site. If the mattress does contain only what you’ve listed (disregarding the density of the foam edge reinforcement), these would all be good quality and durable materials.
First of all, that was a typo from me–32 ILD is also what I was told about the latex.
Ok now, after a week of both of us trying to get the information by email, chat, and phone, my partner was able to get someone to call her back after talking to the factory with the correct (or at least, correct-sounding) specs. As you suspected, there is another inch of foam attached to the quilted layer above the latex. The foam used for the edge supports, the top and bottom encasement layers, and the quilted layer is all 1.5 lb/cu ft polyurethane.
So the mattress is, from the bottom:
1 inch of 1.5 lb/cu ft polyurethane
8 inch springs
1 inch of 1.5 lb/cu ft polyurethane
2 inch of natural Talalay latex
1 inch of 1.5 lb/cu ft polyurethane
The remaining ~1/2 inch in the spec is just the fabric outer layer, which is sewn into the top layer of foam.
Based on what I’ve read here, that foam is going to be the weak link in the mattress construction. I am still leaning toward this mattress because it was my partner’s second favorite and basically tied with the Berkeley Oslo for me (she didn’t like that one nearly as much), and I am not sure where else to look in New York for a higher quality, transparent mattress. And I know it shouldn’t be the deciding factor, but we had a much better visit at CPR than at Scott Jordan. It also seems like the latter marks up their mattresses quite a bit compared to other Berkeley resellers. For example, isn’t this the same mattress ADMIN NOTE:Removed 404 page link | Archived Footprint: flybynight.com/Alpine-Natural-Mattress_p_1286.html and this ADMIN NOTE:Removed 404 page link | Archived Footprint: urbannatural.com/collections/all-natural-mattresses/products/madison-interactive-coil-mattress?variant=16556466883)?
But I am definitely going to stress about it a bit more, so I’d love to hear your opinion.
Edit: I know there are several other mattress showrooms in New York, but they seem to be heavy on memory foam, and we much prefer these inner spring/latex mattresses.
I just can’t make myself happy about any of our inner spring mattress options, so I’m considering whether we might as well give something else a try while we have the chance. We do not like memory foam, but we love the feel of latex, and a lot of the discussion on this site has influenced me toward trying something new.
We just tried out a Brooklyn Bedding pillow and actually love the way it feels. I keep coming back to Brooklyn Bedding and KISS because it sounds like they actually make it possible to return, and I’m intrigued by a full latex (or similar) mattress. We did not love the Nest Q3, which is the closest thing we’ve been able to try in person, because we did not find it firm enough. Any thoughts on the firmness of the Brooklyn Bedding firm or the KISS firm compared to the Q3?
[quote]So the mattress [Charles P Rogers Estate Firm 5000] is, from the bottom:
1 inch of 1.5 lb/cu ft polyurethane
8 inch springs
1 inch of 1.5 lb/cu ft polyurethane
2 inch of natural Talalay latex
1 inch of 1.5 lb/cu ft polyurethane[/quote]
Thank you for providing those specifications. The base foam at 1.5 lb density, wouldn’t be as worrisome, but the total of 2" of 1.5 lb density would put this model “on the cusp” of what I’d advise considering. The 1" in the quilt will have some pre-compression with the quilt stitching, and the other 1" is beneath the latex layer, but overall it would be nicer to see some 1.8 lb polyfoam.
As I mentioned in one of my previous replies, there ae many things that go into your personal value equation, and your dealings with any particular retailer certainly can be part of that.
[quote]It also seems like the latter marks up their mattresses quite a bit compared to other Berkeley resellers. For example, isn’t this the same mattress ADMIN NOTE:Removed 404 page link | Archived Footprint: flybynight.com/Alpine-Natural-Mattress_p_1286.html
And this ADMIN NOTE:Removed 404 page link | Archived Footprint: urbannatural.com/collections/all-nat…?variant=16556466883 )?
[/quote]
They look to be the same products, but I’m not sure if BE does anything particular for the models to differentiate between these three retailers. Regarding pricing, I would expect in NYC you’d tend to pay a premium, as the cost of doing business there is quite expensive. You’d also want to compare anything else that may or not be included, such as delivery and any potential return/exchange policies that a business may have. Of course, if you are considering purchasing from one retailer, you can always ask about the pricing you’ve seen elsewhere and ask how their compares.
While you may have already read through this list, and subject to first confirming that any retailer or manufacturer on the list that you wish to visit is completely transparent (see this article ) and to making sure that any mattress you are considering meets the quality/value guidelines here … some options or possibilities I’m aware of in and around the the New York City area are listed in post #2 here.
The pillow in the Brooklyn Bedding Best Pillow Ever is a Talalay core, but their mattresses use a polyfoam core with 4" total of a “latex-like” very high density polyfoam on top of that core that has some of the resilience of latex, but it is not a latex foam. The KISS mattress uses 1.5" of blended Talalay latex in the uppermost layer, but the other layers are polyfoam. The specifications of each model can be found in post #2 here.
Most online mattress manufacturers will offer some sort of a return/exchange policy, and you’d always want to confirm what that might be before placing an order with any online company.
The Q3 is available in three different firmnesses. Was the mattress set up in the “firm” configuration for you when you tested it?
You can’t really cross-compare “firmness” across models using such different componentry. The Brooklyn Bedding is available in a “Firm” version, as is the KISS mattress. There really are also no “standard” definitions or consensus of opinions for firmness ratings and different manufacturers can rate their mattresses very differently than others so a mattress that one manufacturer rates as being a specific firmness could be rated very differently by another manufacturer. Different people can also have very different perceptions of firmness and softness compared to others as well and a mattress that feels firm for one person can feel like “medium” for someone else or even “soft” for someone else (or vice versa) depending on their body type, sleeping style, physiology, their frame of reference based on what they are used to, and their individual sensitivity and perceptions. There are also different types of firmness and softness that different people may be sensitive to that can affect how they “rate” a mattress as well (see post #15 here) so different people can also have very different opinions on how two mattresses compare in terms of firmness and some people may rate one mattress as being firmer than another and someone else may rate them the other way around, so even if one person stated that mattress X felt to be similar in firmness to mattress Y, that would only apply to that person and not necessarily be a reliable indicator of how the product might feel to you, which can only be determined through your own careful personal testing.
One place to start online shopping would be to use the experience and expertise of the members listed in post #21 here who are all very experienced and knowledgeable and specialize in providing the type of help and guidance on the phone that can help you make good choices. There are a wide range of latex options included in the choices there (many with generous return policies) and I believe that all of them compete well with the best in the industry in terms of their quality, value, service, and transparency.
I did read that post early on in my search, but I had forgotten the details. At that point I was still set on something I could try in store. I will also reconsider those options, especially the spring+latex options that might be superior alternatives to the CPR.
Sorry to keep rehashing things that have been discussed elsewhere, but at this point my head is spinning.
No worries. Just go back to the steps outlined in the mattress shopping tutorial whenever you feel yourself getting off-track and use that as a guideline. No need to memorize things. I find keeping notes on a legal pad works well for listing pros/cons of what you’re searching for.
We were ready to leave the sublet and start sleeping in our permanent apartment, and not excited to do it on an air mattress because of my indecision, so we pulled the trigger on the Brooklyn Bedding BME (firm). I know this is subjective and all, but in my opinion it is noticeably firmer than the CPR Estate 5000 and significantly firmer than the Nest Q3. I know it will lose some firmness in the next few weeks, but I can’t imagine it losing enough to even be comparable to the Estate 5000. Since that is what we were hoping to find, I’m quite happy with the comfort level.
After thinking about edge supports so much, I also notice that the edges of this mattress feel much stiffer and better supported than on most inner spring mattresses. I know that is probably not a surprise, given the construction. The whole thing even looks more rectangular to me, and I don’t feel like I roll off when I sit or lay close to the edge. The firmness might also be a factor here.
Because our bed has horizontal slats, I ordered the high rise platform from Brooklyn to go with the mattress. I figured it was reasonable for warranty purposes to stick with their foundations, and I also didn’t want to bother buying just a foundation locally. It’s a bit silly because now the bed is only decorative, but the foundation is working well. It doesn’t have any detectable play or squeak to it.
So far I like the mattress, but it’s only one day in. I will try to remember to come back in a month and give more details about the transition from inner spring to foam for me. The mattress is definitely not sticky and does not feel sluggish like a memory foam mattress does to me. It is obviously not as springy as an inner spring mattress, but my preference was always based more on a hatred for memory foam than any particular desire for bounciness. Having never slept on a latex mattress, I unfortunately can’t weigh in on that comparison.
Congratulations on your new mattress! You did make a choice using some good quality and durable material. I’m glad that your initial impression is favorable, and I do hope you will remember to post back with your impressions after you’re slept on it a while longer, as you indicated.
The edge on this mattress should feel substantial using, a 36 ILD polyfoam in the base layer (as you surmised), which is similar to some of the edge reinforcement systems in ILD placed around some innerspring units.
Sometimes it’s just as much knowing what we don’t like as much as what we do. :lol:
Ok, update now a year and a half later. We continue to be happy with the Brooklyn Bedding BME, and now need a second mattress. Unfortunately Brooklyn does not appear to make this mattress anymore–the “Signature” model is a totally different design. They also seem to have really ramped up the marketing nonsense on some of their many new offerings (“Nanobionic fabric?”), which I assume must be part of the reason they are no longer listed as a trusted member.
Has anyone had occasion to compare the old Brooklyn BME with the new pocket coil design? Does it compare favorably? I am not enthusiastic about this change and am considering just going with a real latex mattress, possibly from Latex Mattress Factory or Sleep on Latex, this time.
Thanks for your update… I am glad to hear that you are happy with your "year and a half " Brooklyn Bedding Signature model BME and I agree that it is too bad that the design/materials you liked have changed … it is quite frustrating and confusing when companies modify designs/constructions but use the same model name … quite frankly its not good for branding purposes. either.
The only place I have found that compares the two mattresses are on these affiliate marketing review sites, where they have reviewed the old and new versions. As many are aware we caution using these sites for reliable information. You can see my comments about the Sleepopolis Site (and many other similar so-called “review sites” which are really just revenue sites that know little about mattresses or mattress materials) in post #11 here and in posts #4 and #6 here but the good news is that you ended up buying a great quality/value mattress in spite of the somewhat questionable information there.
Whether one is a trusted member or not, is not really related to specific marketing claims. Thanks for the note on “Nanobionic” cover, which one can see information on the Nanobionic website, which is a little light on the “science” of how this technology works.
An all latex mattresses is a great choice provided that you like the feel of latex and it matches the comfort/support for your particular PPP needs and preferences (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences). Both Latex Mattress Factory and Sleep on Latex are trusted members of our sites which means that I think highly of them, their products and their service. I’d make sure to place a phone call and discuss with each of them your specifics and sleeping history, needs and preferences to help them guide you to the best fit. (Also ckeck the TMU coupon/dixcount codes for some savings)
Thanks for the additional reply. I have reached out to Sleep on Latex for advice. I’m now also considering the Sleeping Organic 10" option, which seems like it might be even closer to what I have now in terms of feel and firmness. I could potentially do the following:
I considered a medium Talalay top layer as well since it seems likely that the 8" of firm Dunlop will feel somewhat firmer than my existing mattress, but I’m also aware that the ILD ratings can vary and also don’t necessarily reflect how the foam actually feels. I will try reaching out to them tomorrow for advice as well.
FWIW, I heard back almost immediately from Sleeping Organic, who recommended I go for the following to have more options for playing with the layers:
Talalay Medium
Dunlop Firm
Dunlop XFirm
So I am not sure what I’ll do, but I’ll probably decide by the end of the day. I am also eyeing their discounted closeout mattresses, since I don’t really know exactly what I want anyway . . .
