Pure Latex Bliss Pamper and back pain

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
47

I think that’s an excellent and accurate summary, with just one exception: We were told that we could make one free layer exchange with the OMI (actually, IIRC, it might have been one free layer and we even keep the old layer we don’t want). But given the large price difference, I think your conclusion is still accurate: It’s the least attractive of the 3 options.

Thinking back to where we began, I’m surprised at what’s happened. Having slept on a very firm, custom-made mattress for 20 years, and then adding a 2" memory foam topper (after we “broke” the mattress while moving it) for another 10, I’d have thought that the Pamper with the soft topper would have been fine. But hopefully the Nature will do it for us, if this last topper we try (whichever we decide on) with the Pamper does not.

Thanks for the summary; it definitely helps to organize our thinking and make our decision easier.

48

Regarding the pillow Ihave alway slept on a firm mattress and firm pillow… I bought the tempur pedic pillow like 5 years ago for $200 its like a rock and I’m wondering if the fact that now I’m sleeping on a bit softer mattress the firm pillow acts more like a step and less like a pillow and wreaks havoc on my neck area…

I really like the pillow and when I found it it was awesome because finding a good pillow is more difficult then finding a good mattress…

Regarding the mattress it does not feel ultra sof at all… more like plush firm compared to what I’m coming from but I decided to go with this because on my firm mattress it was painful sleeping on my side and this one aligns quite well as far as I can tell.

What are your thoughts on my pillow analysis?

49

Hi KinFol,

Thanks for the correction about the OMI exchange policy. I thought it was strange but when I looked at their site there was no information about any layer exchange. Many of their retailers mention it though.

Phoenix

50

Hi aron82e,

I switched some of your posts to this thread to help me keep track of the flow of the thread topics … in case you were wondering how your posts ended up in this thread :slight_smile:

I agree that pillows can be even more difficult than mattresses. Our face head and neck is very sensitive and while neutral alignment in all your sleeping positions is a basic “need” with pillows (just like mattresses) … personal preferences play an even bigger role. Some people even have several pillows because their preferences can change depending on how they feel and on circumstances.

It makes perfect sense to me. When you buy a new mattress and your shoulders are sinking in more than the old one … then if you have a firm pillow that is high and firm enough for the old mattress where the gap between your head and neck and the mattress is more, then it’s quite common that you would need a thinner pillow (or perhaps a softer one) for the new mattress to maintain the same alignment.

Phoenix

51

Ok… So what are the best pillows to look at? I don’t mind spending money for quality…

52

Hi aron82e,

I think it’s impossible to define “best” for someone else because preferences play such a big role. There are some good resources in the pillow thread though that may be useful both to help you make sure that a pillow is suitable for you but also to give you some ideas about what you may prefer.

Phoenix

53

Before we bought our PLB Pamper I had gone to customsleepdesign.com and filled in our info. About a week ago we received the detailed specs via email. I thought it might be interesting to compare against the Pamper and Nature specs:

Top layer: 2" 14 ILD / 19 ILD (top / bottom)
Middle layer: 3" 19 ILD / 28 ILD
Bottom layer: 6" 36 ILD

Comparing the bottom portion of the CSD specs, they are very similar to the Nature:
2" 21 ILD
2" 28 ILD
6" 36 ILD

Compared to what we are using now, with the topper:
2" 14 ILD
2" 21 ILD
6" 40 ILD

I’d guess the CSD specs might be pretty close to what would work for me, sadly the price (if I recall correctly) was too high for us to consider. I like the zone idea, because it does seem as if my shoulder area especially needs more room to sink in. That’s what I’m hoping I’ll get from the 3" memory foam coming next week, but I do fear it might cause my hips to sink too far, ruining alignment.

Anyway, nothing really to say here, just thought I’d post these specs because I thought it was interesting how the bottom portion they came up with is so close to the PLB Nature.

54

Hi KinFol,

One of the unique parts to the CSD design is that it can “work” under both the shoulder area and the pelvis area which have very different weight and shape profiles. The shoulder area is typically wider but lighter than the hip pelvis area (more in men than women) but it also has less surface area until you “reach” the torso when the surface area in contact with the mattress increases rapidly which increases the resistance or “support” of the foam in that area. The foam layers also overlap where they are cut so that there is generally a few inch section where there is some firmer foam over some softer foam under the recessed part of the lumbar which can help to support the lumbar arch.

The challenge with trying to compare their design with a mattress that has single ILD layers is that it’s only comparable under the area you are comparing because you can choose the firmness under one area with much less regard to how it will affect the others. If you use the pelvis zone firmness under the shoulders they may be too firm and if you use the shoulder zone firmness under the pelvis they may be (and almost certainly would be) too soft. ILD alone is only part of how a mattress responds and layer thickness can play just as big a role in softness/firmness as ILD. An extra inch of thickness in a layer (whether top or middle) can make a significant difference in some cases. If I had to make a comparison though … as inaccurate as it may be … I would compare the ILD’s and layer thicknesses under the hips/pelvis.

In other words … the goal is always alignment and how each part of the body sinks in relative to the others and without the zoning both the bottom and the top zones or the layer thickness may need to change in one direction or another to create the best alignment with single ILD layers.

In spite of the layer thickness difference them though … the similarity of ILD’s in the hip/pelvis area does at least somewhat point to the Nature being relatively close at least based on the algorithm that CSD uses (which also needs adjusting sometimes after someone sleeps on it).

With 4" of soft latex already in the top layers of your mattress … I would also be a little concerned with adding an extra 3" of soft foam. the good news though is that you may get away with this extra thickness a little more than you may with more resilient materials. I’m looking forward though to comparing your actual experience with the “theories” we are discussing.

Phoenix

55

Thanks for your thoughts on this, Phoenix. In a perfect world (i.e., one in which I had won the lottery :lol: ) I would so like to have tried the CSD mattress. But we all have to make compromises.

I should have made it clear, we are not planning on using the 2" 14 ILD topper with the 3" memory foam topper. We had already tried the 2" memory foam topper on top of the 2" 14 ILD and found it too unsupportive. Even my wife, who seems to be able to sleep on most anything, ended up waking with a sore back.

56

Hi KinFol,

Whew … that’s good news. I was a little worried about the topper on top of what you already had :slight_smile:

Phoenix

57

So, it’s been a while.

We got the 3" memory foam topper from Costco last week, then (of course) had to wait for it to puff out / re-form itself. It was in much better shape than the 2" one we had tried earlier (from the same manufacturer), and after only 2 days we decided it was ready.

After the first 2 nights, I was willing to call it a success. My shoulders in particular were happy, as they sank down much further than they had been, to what seemed to me to be just the right amount. Surprisingly to me my back and hip didn’t seem to be noticeably better, but as they weren’t too bad I was quite ok to say ‘done’. My wife is convinced that no bed will be completely pain-free for me, and that I need to work on stretching exercises to help improve it.

Then after the 3rd night, a problem. Not since we used the Pamper without a topper do I recall waking up with a sore back, but I did after the 3rd night, despite not having spent much (if any) time sleeping on my back. For the 4th night I made sure to sleep only on my side, and sure enough, even during the night I could feel a lower back pain developing. My guess is that my hips are sinking too far now and are causing my spine to be a bit out of alignment. (See how much you’ve taught me, Phoenix?!) We were both very disappointed, as we were really hoping we were at the end of this process.

Last night we went back to the 2" PLB latex topper. No back pain, but the hip pain was even worse than I remembered. (Perhaps it’s about the same and I just forgot how bad it was? I don’t know.)

So it looks like we’re resigned to returning the Pamper and getting the Nature. Since that’s our one and only shot, I’m of course worried “What if …”, but I hope it won’t come to that. I’m hoping the Nature with the 2" PLB topper will be perfect, and it will be a happy ending. We’ll go tomorrow and see what they say (they won’t be happy, but it’s the cost of doing business).

58

Hi KinFol,

That’s unfortunate but at least it “points to” the nature being a better choice that would be less risky (although of course nothing is certain).

I know that trying toppers can be just as frustrating as choosing the right mattress in the first place but I think your testing and experimentation has helped steer you in a direction that has better odds of success.

As you say … it’s part of shopping for mattresses and the retailers that offer exchanges know that as you say it’s part of doing business and exchanges are already built into their pricing.

I’m looking forward to your feedback when you’ve done the exchange and thanks as well for sharing your feedback so far along the way. While it hasn’t been successful … yet … it will be helpful for others who are working their way through a similar challenge.

Phoenix

59

Well, I’m still somewhat in shock at what happened, as it was the furthest thing from my mind on entering the store.

But I was a bit worried after spending some more time on the PLB Nature. Without a topper, I could feel pressure on my hips and thought that over the course of the night it wouldn’t end up being any better than where I’m at now with the Pamper and a topper. With the topper, I could feel some tension in my lower back. It seemed like, just as with the 3" memory foam topper on the Pamper, my hips were sinking in too far.

So we wandered around the store trying some of the other mattresses, and ran into an Anatomic Global Eco 2, a 10" memory foam mattress that just felt right. It seemed firm but supportive, and (naturally) very conforming. We decided to go for it. My one concern is that I’m well aware that memory foam changes its feel as the night progresses, so who knows what it might be like after sleeping an entire night on it? But on the plus side, it’s a more-or-less even exchange with the Pamper (just have to pay for shipping, so probably $100 or $150 or so). I don’t think it will be worse for me than the Pamper has been, so I’m not risking much, except the mattress will likely last half as long or less. (I am risking that we could’ve done better with the Nature, our original plan, but since it didn’t seem to be working out, we’d have to fool around again looking for just the right topper.)

We should get it in about 2 weeks. After sleeping it on for 3-4 nights, I’ll report the final result. Gulp.

60

Hi KinFol,

I’m cheering for you and hopefully your testing in the showroom will reflect your longer term experience as well. It sounds promising :slight_smile:

Just for reference sake … it seems this is the layering although based on other specs I’ve also read which are slightly different the densities may be “rounded up” by .5 lbs

  • 1″ Low-Slow Response 5 lb. Density EcoMemoryFoam
  • 2″ Mid-Fast Response 4 lb. Density Enhanced Anatomic Support Memory Foam
  • 2″ Low-Slow Response 5lb. Density EcoMemoryFoam
  • 4″ High-Fast Response BioFoam Core Support Layer
  • 1″ High-Fast Response Base Layer

Phoenix

61

We got the Anatomic Global Eco 2 a week ago Sunday. It was a huge struggle to get it out of its cloth bag (took about 30 minutes), but unlike the toppers we’d tried once we opened the inner plastic bag it visibly started expanding (“it’s alive!”). After a few hours it had already reached its specified size (width, length, and thickness).

We’ve slept on it now for 9 nights. I can say it has definitely been better for me while sleeping on my back, even though I still have some back pain in the morning if I’ve slept for what I estimate to be at least 2-3 hours on my back. But this was true for me on our old mattress, and was one of the things that had prompted me to look for a new one. (Perhaps it was my body changing and not the mattress.) As for my hip pain when side-sleeping, it seems to be a toss-up. Sometimes it seems better than it had on the Pamper (with the latex topper), sometimes considerably worse. Perhaps the reason for the variance is the amount of time I spend on my back (with the Pamper I pretty much was confined to side-sleeping only). Lastly, my shoulder seems better than on the Pamper + latex topper (it sinks down more), but I’m still pillow fighting, so depending on what I do with my pillow sometimes my neck & shoulders are fine, sometimes terrible.

However, it is definitely worse for my wife, who had no complaints with the Pamper. She was ok the first several nights, but the longer we sleep on it, the more she complains about sinking in too far and waking up with … a sore hip. I thought she could sleep well on anything, but apparently we’ve managed to find something that bothers her. Perhaps we would have been better sticking with our original decision and upgrading to Nature, but we’ll never know now.

The local store we purchased it from has not been able to pick up our Pamper due to illness. We spoke with them today, and naturally they were not really happy with the idea (I cannot blame them at all), but said that if we want we can return the Anatomic Global and keep the Pamper. I think (if I can recall back that far) that the Pamper with the 2" memory foam topper was roughly equivalent to the Anatomic Global for me, and better for my wife. So we think that’s what we’re going to do.

However, Costco.com no longer offers the 2" Comfort Revolution that we tried and returned. Perhaps they were getting too many returns on it (if you recall, it was severely deformed and after 10 days still hadn’t really come close in several spots to its intended shape / size).

Since (I hope) this will be a final purchase, I want to get only a Certipur-certified topper. I’d also like to get a 5-pound density one, as based on what you and others have written, density seems mostly related to longevity. I’ve narrowed down my choices to two:

BrooklynBedding
FoamByMail

They are both 2", 5-pound density Certipur-certified memory foam toppers with 10-year warranties. They are priced within $20 of each other. And they are both from (I believe) reputable firms (though only BrooklynBedding is a member here, so that gives them a bit of an edge in my book). I do know the FBM mattress has an approx. ILD of 14, but I don’t know about the BB mattress. But there seems to be so many variables anyway, it doesn’t seem possible to compare them by specs.

Sorry (really!) to not have better news. Everyone was hoping the Anatomic Global was going to do it for us, but apparently it was a mistake to try it. :frowning: I feel worst for our local store, as they are the ones who pay the biggest price. If Phoenix (or anyone) has any comments on either of these toppers, I’d love to hear them.

Edited to add: I just noticed that the BB 4-pound topper is almost the same price as the 5-pound, and also has a 10-year warranty. I suppose I should just call tomorrow and ask them, but it seems like there might not be much real difference between the two.

62

KinFol, This has been quite an ordeal for you and spouse. As a “mature” newbie on this site (old enough to have an arthritic back, new enough to not know much) I hesitate to give any advice. However, there is one topper that is owned and liked by several people here, but I don’t think came up in the conversation: Seven comforts sells a topper made of latex rods: http://www.sevencomforts.com/latex-foam-mattress-pad.html

Phoenix has one and might be able to comment on whether or not it might be something for you to try. It is very reasonably priced. Also, I softened up my new latex mattress by walking on it (barefoot of course). It softened up mucho, despite being 30ILD latex in the comfort area. You might try walking on the shoulder area of your mattress for a few minutes to see if softens. At your weight you might not be deflecting the latex enough to break it in.

Good luck. Lew

63

Thank you, Lew. I appreciate all suggestions, advice, and information. I’d not come across this topper before, but here’s the thread where Phoenix learned about it and ended up buying one.

It sounds intriguing, and indeed is very reasonably priced. But this quote from Phoenix makes me think it might not be what I’m looking for (my bold):

We haven’t yet changed back to the PLB Pamper mattress, but when we do I think I will definitely try walking on the shoulder area as you suggest. That sounds quite promising. I didn’t know these mattresses need to be broken in, and I can well imagine my weight may not be sufficient to do so just by lying on it.

Thanks, Lew!

64

Hi KinFol,

You certainly are having somewhat of an “ordeal” and hopefully you will soon find a good solution for both of you.

Before considering doing any business with Foam By Mail (FBM) I would read post #2 here and post #2 here.

The pamper has 2" of soft latex (21 ILD) over firmer latex so the thinness of the layer is what creates its firmness. Because there is 2" on top though … the Seven Comforts may be OK. It’s somewhat “in between” a shredded latex topper or even a memory foam topper and a solid latex layer and it would “allow” your shoulders to sink in a little more than a solid topper (that’s what I meant by point specific pressure relief because it would allow the “bony prominences” to sink in a little more than a solid topper). My daughter used it to “camp” on the floor for a couple of nights and said it was surprisingly comfortable for a 2" topper.

Edit: see post #52 here if you are considering ordering this topper.

As you mentioned … ILD has only minor relevance with memory foam because it responds to pressure, temperature, humidity, and time and all of these can change its ILD. in most cases ILD with memory foam in in the range of around 10 to about 15 which would all be considered soft by the standards of other foam but this can be very misleading because like other viscous materials if you impress them or 'slap" them quickly they are firm but if you press in slowly or if they are warned up they are much softer.

Phoenix

65

Thanks, Phoenix. I thought I’d read a lot of positive posts about FBM before so I hadn’t even looked this time, but I didn’t like what I read in the links you provided so we wouldn’t even consider them.

The Seven Comforts topper sounds intriguing, but my wife is worried about the materials inside since it isn’t Certipur-certified and is made in China. So for now at least, we are going with the 2" memory foam and hope it works out.

I wanted to get the 5-pound density one, but my wife called BB and whomever she spoke with either didn’t really know or couldn’t convey the differences to her satisfaction, so we’re getting the 4-pound one instead. (It was what she felt most comfortable getting.) Unless it’s awful, we will make do with it and finally be done with this.

66

Hi KinFol,

The 4 lb will be a little softer but also has gel particles which will increase its compression modulus (it gets firmer when it is compressed more deeply) which may also be a benefit.

I’m looking forward to your feedback when you receive it. I know it will be a relief in more ways than one when it’s over and done with.

Everyone prefers to actually sleep comfortably instead of trying to figure out how to create the sleeping system that makes it possible :slight_smile:

Phoenix