OK … that makes a bit more sense to me although as you mentioned there is still lots of information missing (or at least not quite clear to me) about your testing experience.
This seems very odd to me. I’m not sure of the size you are looking at but in either queen or king the upgrade from the Pamper to the nature should be significantly less than this. In queen it should be closer to half of this.
Of course this is still a fairly significant cost and much more than adding a topper to the Pamper but if the Nature worked well for you without a topper (which one part of your post seemed to indicate) then it may be worth considering.
As you can see from post #2 here … the PLB Pamper has 2" of 21 ILD over 6" of 40 ILD.
The nature has 2" of 21 ILD over 2" of 28 ILD over a 6" 36 ILD core.
While this is an approximation at best … if you were to add a 2" 24 ILD Talalay topper to the Pamper … the top 4" of your mattress would have an “average” ILD of 22.5 before you reached the much firmer 40 ILD core.
The top 4" of the Nature without a topper has an “average” ILD of 24.5
While using “averages” and an arbitrary thickness for your “comfort zone” (in this case the top 4") is not exact and the order of the layers will also make a difference … the Pamper and a 2" topper would likely feel close to the Nature and would be significantly less than the upgrade. Using a 2" 19 ILD topper would make it a little softer yet if you thought you needed it.
It would also be interesting to get your feedback on either the replacement 4 lb memory foam topper (assuming you replaced the defective one and which you mentioned was “almost perfect”) or one of the other ones you were considering (if you decided to order it)
I just received my PLB Nature 2 day back and would like to weigh in.
I to am used to a firm mattress but decided to go with this one as I liked the way in conformed to my body and figured I could side sleep easier and more comfortable.
Although I tried in the store there is still the opinion that one has that is formed when actually receiving it and trying it at home… here it goes:
I find it very comfortable… I’m not used to such a soft mattress and I worry if it will get softer ( I weight 280 pounds 5’10)
The support is good although again I’n not used to my body conforming so I dont know if my Butt is supposed to sink down into the mattress or not.
After two night on it I have minor upper back and neck pain but I believe any new mattress will have that as its new to the body…
I also find that it sleep quite hot… even with the top layer of PLB I wake up in a bit of a sweat…
My thoughts are that any new mattress especially going from a Spring to Latex will have a “learning curb” the question is are the above mentioned issues learning curbs or mattress selection issues?..
Hmmmm. You’re absolutely right. We have a queen size, and I just looked up the MAPs on the store’s site that we bought from. Ok, I see what happened – she quoted the price for the King size instead. We’d have never realized that without you – thank you! So, the actual upgrade price to Nutrition would be about $600 plus (half indeed - you really know your stuff!). That’s an entirely different story from $1250 plus and changes things considerably.
I first tried Nature without a topper, and it was clearly better for me than the Pamper without a topper. But it wasn’t until I added the topper that I felt it could work as “The One”. (We already bought the topper and have been using it on the Pamper, so there is no additional cost to us to use the topper for the Nature. Whichever would work out best is what we would do.) Of course, a nightmare scenario would be that the Nature plus topper works great for me, but turns out to be terrible for my wife – there’s no exchanges possible after that. Which is the big reason the OMI was more attractive (especially when it was cheaper, ha!).
Since we’ve been using the 2" 14 ILD Talalay topper on the Pamper and it doesn’t provide quite enough support for my back or let my shoulder sink in enough, I think I need something else. We had tried for a few minutes the 3" 14 ILD Talalay topper a while back, but neither of us liked that one. It was just too mushy feeling (which is a worry we have that a 3" memory foam might feel similar to us).
My wife wants to just order a replacement for the 2" , 4lb, but I feel that even though it was somewhat deformed, it didn’t perform significantly differently from how it would’ve performed if it had been “normal”. That’s why I wanted to try something different (either thicker, or higher density). We’ve figured out we have almost exactly 3 weeks before time runs out, so that should be enough time to try something.
I just received my PLB Nature 2 day back and would like to weigh in.
I to am used to a firm mattress but decided to go with this one as I liked the way in conformed to my body and figured I could side sleep easier and more comfortable.
I find it very comfortable… I’m not used to such a soft mattress and I worry if it will get softer ( I weight 280 pounds 5’10)
The support is good although again I’n not used to my body conforming so I dont know if my Butt is supposed to sink down into the mattress or not.
After two night on it I have minor upper back and neck pain but I believe any new mattress will have that as its new to the body…
I also find that it sleep quite hot… even with the top layer of PLB I wake up in a bit of a sweat…
My thoughts are that any new mattress especially going from a Spring to Latex will have a “learning curb” the question is are the above mentioned issues learning curbs or mattress selection issues?..[/quote]
I hope Phoenix will be able to add something, but I can tell you that two nights is likely not long enough to give when switching mattresses. I can also tell you from personal experience that changing mattresses can affect the pillow that you need, and that will be most noticeable in the neck area (obviously). So there’s a chance that some of your neck pain is due to your pillow now not working well for you with your mattress.
As for sleeping hot, I’ve been used to using a memory foam topper for many years, which definitely sleeps hot. I’ve found that latex foam is quite a bit better than memory foam for that, but still does seem to sleep hotter than a “regular” spring mattress.
I do hope the Nature ends up working well for you; good luck! I never knew changing mattresses could be so difficult.
The first thing I would suggest is to echo Kinfol’s comment that a couple of nights is not nearly enough yet to evaluate how the mattress may work for you … especially considering that it is quite a change from what you had before.
The support of a 36 ILD latex support layer is probably fine although for your weight it may be a little on the soft side. The goal is always to have neutral spinal alignment in all your sleeping positions so your pelvis and shoulders both need to sink in “enough” but not too much. At your higher weight you would likely be “going through” the 2" of 21 ILD on top and into the firmer middle and lower layers below it. Latex will soften much less that other foam materials but with your weight and the low ILD of the top layer it may soften a little more than normal. Heavier weights will sink in more to higher ILD foam which will feel softer to them. Because latex is very point elastic (it takes on the shape of the body lying on it very well) it distributes pressure very effectively and this is often why even firmer latex can feel softer than people expect. I would doubt that with the middle layer of 28 ILD and the 36 ILD core that your pelvis is sinking in too far although it’s possible depending on your body type.
If this were to continue … it could be pointing to the likelihood of either a pillow issue (as KinFol suggested the gap between your head and neck and the mattress has changed compared to your old mattress) or to the possibility that the comfort layers aren’t quite thick or soft enough to “allow” your wider and lighter shoulders (compared to your pelvis) to sink in far enough which could be causing alignment issues in the upper spine.
This could be affected by several things. Heavier weights will sink further into foam layers which will be more insulating for them (all foam is insulating although latex is more open and ventiating than other foams). The lower layers are also not as breathable as the innerspring you had and you are probably sinking down into this as well.
More likely though is that your mattress protector or sheets (or anything else you have over the mattress) are not as breathable as they could be which can contribute to ventilation and heat issues. What type of mattress protector and sheets are you using?
I would check on the pillow issue and on the mattress protector and sheets but I would wait a while to see how your body responds over a little longer time to the rest of what you are experiencing before thinking about any possible adjustments.
Given your preference for firmer and your lighter weight and back/side sleeping … I would have guessed that the Nature without a topper would have good odds of being successful for you.
The topper would turn this into a “soft mattress” with 4" of softer latex on top and then 2" of medium over the support core. This would not seem to be the layering that your other preferences seemed to indicate. I would think the topper on top of this was a little riskier but the good news is that it’s so soft that all the different parts of your body … including the lighter ones … may sink in more evenly.
As I see things you have several options …
For around $600 or so. Go with the Nature (and use it with or without the topper you have) which would appear to be quite close for you either in “theory” (without the topper) or in practice (with the topper). You may even start with the topper and then remove it if that was indicated and you could sleep on it without one (which would be less risky for alignment). Your wife may also prefer the version without the topper (it’s closer to the Pamper she seems to like). This would seem like a good option because you could use it with or without a topper or even start with the topper and then remove it after a while or if your wife didn’t like it. This seemed to be close to what you liked in testing.
For around $1150 or so. Go with the OMI 3 layer option. This could be customized on each side and for each sleeper but unlike most 3x3 mattresses there are no layer exchanges possible after your initial choice and from a “raw value” perspective this has the worst value of your 3 options. This means that your first choice would be your last one so this is a fairly risky proposition considering the high cost in spite of its ability to customize. The cost of this option as well as the cost of making a mistake in your firmness choices would be quite high. CORRECTION ADDED: You would have one layer exchange which would reduce the risk of making an unsuitable choice.
Keep the Pamper and the PLB topper and work with toppers until you get it right. This could involve the most trial and error but would also be the least costly option.
Since you still have some time … another step with option 3 would seem worthwhile and may help you decide which of your 3 options may be best for you when the final deadline comes.
I think that’s an excellent and accurate summary, with just one exception: We were told that we could make one free layer exchange with the OMI (actually, IIRC, it might have been one free layer and we even keep the old layer we don’t want). But given the large price difference, I think your conclusion is still accurate: It’s the least attractive of the 3 options.
Thinking back to where we began, I’m surprised at what’s happened. Having slept on a very firm, custom-made mattress for 20 years, and then adding a 2" memory foam topper (after we “broke” the mattress while moving it) for another 10, I’d have thought that the Pamper with the soft topper would have been fine. But hopefully the Nature will do it for us, if this last topper we try (whichever we decide on) with the Pamper does not.
Thanks for the summary; it definitely helps to organize our thinking and make our decision easier.
Regarding the pillow Ihave alway slept on a firm mattress and firm pillow… I bought the tempur pedic pillow like 5 years ago for $200 its like a rock and I’m wondering if the fact that now I’m sleeping on a bit softer mattress the firm pillow acts more like a step and less like a pillow and wreaks havoc on my neck area…
I really like the pillow and when I found it it was awesome because finding a good pillow is more difficult then finding a good mattress…
Regarding the mattress it does not feel ultra sof at all… more like plush firm compared to what I’m coming from but I decided to go with this because on my firm mattress it was painful sleeping on my side and this one aligns quite well as far as I can tell.
Thanks for the correction about the OMI exchange policy. I thought it was strange but when I looked at their site there was no information about any layer exchange. Many of their retailers mention it though.
I switched some of your posts to this thread to help me keep track of the flow of the thread topics … in case you were wondering how your posts ended up in this thread
I agree that pillows can be even more difficult than mattresses. Our face head and neck is very sensitive and while neutral alignment in all your sleeping positions is a basic “need” with pillows (just like mattresses) … personal preferences play an even bigger role. Some people even have several pillows because their preferences can change depending on how they feel and on circumstances.
It makes perfect sense to me. When you buy a new mattress and your shoulders are sinking in more than the old one … then if you have a firm pillow that is high and firm enough for the old mattress where the gap between your head and neck and the mattress is more, then it’s quite common that you would need a thinner pillow (or perhaps a softer one) for the new mattress to maintain the same alignment.
I think it’s impossible to define “best” for someone else because preferences play such a big role. There are some good resources in the pillow thread though that may be useful both to help you make sure that a pillow is suitable for you but also to give you some ideas about what you may prefer.
Before we bought our PLB Pamper I had gone to customsleepdesign.com and filled in our info. About a week ago we received the detailed specs via email. I thought it might be interesting to compare against the Pamper and Nature specs:
Comparing the bottom portion of the CSD specs, they are very similar to the Nature:
2" 21 ILD
2" 28 ILD
6" 36 ILD
Compared to what we are using now, with the topper:
2" 14 ILD
2" 21 ILD
6" 40 ILD
I’d guess the CSD specs might be pretty close to what would work for me, sadly the price (if I recall correctly) was too high for us to consider. I like the zone idea, because it does seem as if my shoulder area especially needs more room to sink in. That’s what I’m hoping I’ll get from the 3" memory foam coming next week, but I do fear it might cause my hips to sink too far, ruining alignment.
Anyway, nothing really to say here, just thought I’d post these specs because I thought it was interesting how the bottom portion they came up with is so close to the PLB Nature.
One of the unique parts to the CSD design is that it can “work” under both the shoulder area and the pelvis area which have very different weight and shape profiles. The shoulder area is typically wider but lighter than the hip pelvis area (more in men than women) but it also has less surface area until you “reach” the torso when the surface area in contact with the mattress increases rapidly which increases the resistance or “support” of the foam in that area. The foam layers also overlap where they are cut so that there is generally a few inch section where there is some firmer foam over some softer foam under the recessed part of the lumbar which can help to support the lumbar arch.
The challenge with trying to compare their design with a mattress that has single ILD layers is that it’s only comparable under the area you are comparing because you can choose the firmness under one area with much less regard to how it will affect the others. If you use the pelvis zone firmness under the shoulders they may be too firm and if you use the shoulder zone firmness under the pelvis they may be (and almost certainly would be) too soft. ILD alone is only part of how a mattress responds and layer thickness can play just as big a role in softness/firmness as ILD. An extra inch of thickness in a layer (whether top or middle) can make a significant difference in some cases. If I had to make a comparison though … as inaccurate as it may be … I would compare the ILD’s and layer thicknesses under the hips/pelvis.
In other words … the goal is always alignment and how each part of the body sinks in relative to the others and without the zoning both the bottom and the top zones or the layer thickness may need to change in one direction or another to create the best alignment with single ILD layers.
In spite of the layer thickness difference them though … the similarity of ILD’s in the hip/pelvis area does at least somewhat point to the Nature being relatively close at least based on the algorithm that CSD uses (which also needs adjusting sometimes after someone sleeps on it).
With 4" of soft latex already in the top layers of your mattress … I would also be a little concerned with adding an extra 3" of soft foam. the good news though is that you may get away with this extra thickness a little more than you may with more resilient materials. I’m looking forward though to comparing your actual experience with the “theories” we are discussing.
Thanks for your thoughts on this, Phoenix. In a perfect world (i.e., one in which I had won the lottery :lol: ) I would so like to have tried the CSD mattress. But we all have to make compromises.
I should have made it clear, we are not planning on using the 2" 14 ILD topper with the 3" memory foam topper. We had already tried the 2" memory foam topper on top of the 2" 14 ILD and found it too unsupportive. Even my wife, who seems to be able to sleep on most anything, ended up waking with a sore back.
We got the 3" memory foam topper from Costco last week, then (of course) had to wait for it to puff out / re-form itself. It was in much better shape than the 2" one we had tried earlier (from the same manufacturer), and after only 2 days we decided it was ready.
After the first 2 nights, I was willing to call it a success. My shoulders in particular were happy, as they sank down much further than they had been, to what seemed to me to be just the right amount. Surprisingly to me my back and hip didn’t seem to be noticeably better, but as they weren’t too bad I was quite ok to say ‘done’. My wife is convinced that no bed will be completely pain-free for me, and that I need to work on stretching exercises to help improve it.
Then after the 3rd night, a problem. Not since we used the Pamper without a topper do I recall waking up with a sore back, but I did after the 3rd night, despite not having spent much (if any) time sleeping on my back. For the 4th night I made sure to sleep only on my side, and sure enough, even during the night I could feel a lower back pain developing. My guess is that my hips are sinking too far now and are causing my spine to be a bit out of alignment. (See how much you’ve taught me, Phoenix?!) We were both very disappointed, as we were really hoping we were at the end of this process.
Last night we went back to the 2" PLB latex topper. No back pain, but the hip pain was even worse than I remembered. (Perhaps it’s about the same and I just forgot how bad it was? I don’t know.)
So it looks like we’re resigned to returning the Pamper and getting the Nature. Since that’s our one and only shot, I’m of course worried “What if …”, but I hope it won’t come to that. I’m hoping the Nature with the 2" PLB topper will be perfect, and it will be a happy ending. We’ll go tomorrow and see what they say (they won’t be happy, but it’s the cost of doing business).
That’s unfortunate but at least it “points to” the nature being a better choice that would be less risky (although of course nothing is certain).
I know that trying toppers can be just as frustrating as choosing the right mattress in the first place but I think your testing and experimentation has helped steer you in a direction that has better odds of success.
As you say … it’s part of shopping for mattresses and the retailers that offer exchanges know that as you say it’s part of doing business and exchanges are already built into their pricing.
I’m looking forward to your feedback when you’ve done the exchange and thanks as well for sharing your feedback so far along the way. While it hasn’t been successful … yet … it will be helpful for others who are working their way through a similar challenge.
Well, I’m still somewhat in shock at what happened, as it was the furthest thing from my mind on entering the store.
But I was a bit worried after spending some more time on the PLB Nature. Without a topper, I could feel pressure on my hips and thought that over the course of the night it wouldn’t end up being any better than where I’m at now with the Pamper and a topper. With the topper, I could feel some tension in my lower back. It seemed like, just as with the 3" memory foam topper on the Pamper, my hips were sinking in too far.
So we wandered around the store trying some of the other mattresses, and ran into an Anatomic Global Eco 2, a 10" memory foam mattress that just felt right. It seemed firm but supportive, and (naturally) very conforming. We decided to go for it. My one concern is that I’m well aware that memory foam changes its feel as the night progresses, so who knows what it might be like after sleeping an entire night on it? But on the plus side, it’s a more-or-less even exchange with the Pamper (just have to pay for shipping, so probably $100 or $150 or so). I don’t think it will be worse for me than the Pamper has been, so I’m not risking much, except the mattress will likely last half as long or less. (I am risking that we could’ve done better with the Nature, our original plan, but since it didn’t seem to be working out, we’d have to fool around again looking for just the right topper.)
We should get it in about 2 weeks. After sleeping it on for 3-4 nights, I’ll report the final result. Gulp.
I’m cheering for you and hopefully your testing in the showroom will reflect your longer term experience as well. It sounds promising
Just for reference sake … it seems this is the layering although based on other specs I’ve also read which are slightly different the densities may be “rounded up” by .5 lbs
1″ Low-Slow Response 5 lb. Density EcoMemoryFoam
2″ Mid-Fast Response 4 lb. Density Enhanced Anatomic Support Memory Foam
