Pure Latex Bliss Pamper and back pain

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
59

Well, I’m still somewhat in shock at what happened, as it was the furthest thing from my mind on entering the store.

But I was a bit worried after spending some more time on the PLB Nature. Without a topper, I could feel pressure on my hips and thought that over the course of the night it wouldn’t end up being any better than where I’m at now with the Pamper and a topper. With the topper, I could feel some tension in my lower back. It seemed like, just as with the 3" memory foam topper on the Pamper, my hips were sinking in too far.

So we wandered around the store trying some of the other mattresses, and ran into an Anatomic Global Eco 2, a 10" memory foam mattress that just felt right. It seemed firm but supportive, and (naturally) very conforming. We decided to go for it. My one concern is that I’m well aware that memory foam changes its feel as the night progresses, so who knows what it might be like after sleeping an entire night on it? But on the plus side, it’s a more-or-less even exchange with the Pamper (just have to pay for shipping, so probably $100 or $150 or so). I don’t think it will be worse for me than the Pamper has been, so I’m not risking much, except the mattress will likely last half as long or less. (I am risking that we could’ve done better with the Nature, our original plan, but since it didn’t seem to be working out, we’d have to fool around again looking for just the right topper.)

We should get it in about 2 weeks. After sleeping it on for 3-4 nights, I’ll report the final result. Gulp.

60

Hi KinFol,

I’m cheering for you and hopefully your testing in the showroom will reflect your longer term experience as well. It sounds promising :slight_smile:

Just for reference sake … it seems this is the layering although based on other specs I’ve also read which are slightly different the densities may be “rounded up” by .5 lbs

  • 1″ Low-Slow Response 5 lb. Density EcoMemoryFoam
  • 2″ Mid-Fast Response 4 lb. Density Enhanced Anatomic Support Memory Foam
  • 2″ Low-Slow Response 5lb. Density EcoMemoryFoam
  • 4″ High-Fast Response BioFoam Core Support Layer
  • 1″ High-Fast Response Base Layer

Phoenix

61

We got the Anatomic Global Eco 2 a week ago Sunday. It was a huge struggle to get it out of its cloth bag (took about 30 minutes), but unlike the toppers we’d tried once we opened the inner plastic bag it visibly started expanding (“it’s alive!”). After a few hours it had already reached its specified size (width, length, and thickness).

We’ve slept on it now for 9 nights. I can say it has definitely been better for me while sleeping on my back, even though I still have some back pain in the morning if I’ve slept for what I estimate to be at least 2-3 hours on my back. But this was true for me on our old mattress, and was one of the things that had prompted me to look for a new one. (Perhaps it was my body changing and not the mattress.) As for my hip pain when side-sleeping, it seems to be a toss-up. Sometimes it seems better than it had on the Pamper (with the latex topper), sometimes considerably worse. Perhaps the reason for the variance is the amount of time I spend on my back (with the Pamper I pretty much was confined to side-sleeping only). Lastly, my shoulder seems better than on the Pamper + latex topper (it sinks down more), but I’m still pillow fighting, so depending on what I do with my pillow sometimes my neck & shoulders are fine, sometimes terrible.

However, it is definitely worse for my wife, who had no complaints with the Pamper. She was ok the first several nights, but the longer we sleep on it, the more she complains about sinking in too far and waking up with … a sore hip. I thought she could sleep well on anything, but apparently we’ve managed to find something that bothers her. Perhaps we would have been better sticking with our original decision and upgrading to Nature, but we’ll never know now.

The local store we purchased it from has not been able to pick up our Pamper due to illness. We spoke with them today, and naturally they were not really happy with the idea (I cannot blame them at all), but said that if we want we can return the Anatomic Global and keep the Pamper. I think (if I can recall back that far) that the Pamper with the 2" memory foam topper was roughly equivalent to the Anatomic Global for me, and better for my wife. So we think that’s what we’re going to do.

However, Costco.com no longer offers the 2" Comfort Revolution that we tried and returned. Perhaps they were getting too many returns on it (if you recall, it was severely deformed and after 10 days still hadn’t really come close in several spots to its intended shape / size).

Since (I hope) this will be a final purchase, I want to get only a Certipur-certified topper. I’d also like to get a 5-pound density one, as based on what you and others have written, density seems mostly related to longevity. I’ve narrowed down my choices to two:

BrooklynBedding
FoamByMail

They are both 2", 5-pound density Certipur-certified memory foam toppers with 10-year warranties. They are priced within $20 of each other. And they are both from (I believe) reputable firms (though only BrooklynBedding is a member here, so that gives them a bit of an edge in my book). I do know the FBM mattress has an approx. ILD of 14, but I don’t know about the BB mattress. But there seems to be so many variables anyway, it doesn’t seem possible to compare them by specs.

Sorry (really!) to not have better news. Everyone was hoping the Anatomic Global was going to do it for us, but apparently it was a mistake to try it. :frowning: I feel worst for our local store, as they are the ones who pay the biggest price. If Phoenix (or anyone) has any comments on either of these toppers, I’d love to hear them.

Edited to add: I just noticed that the BB 4-pound topper is almost the same price as the 5-pound, and also has a 10-year warranty. I suppose I should just call tomorrow and ask them, but it seems like there might not be much real difference between the two.

62

KinFol, This has been quite an ordeal for you and spouse. As a “mature” newbie on this site (old enough to have an arthritic back, new enough to not know much) I hesitate to give any advice. However, there is one topper that is owned and liked by several people here, but I don’t think came up in the conversation: Seven comforts sells a topper made of latex rods: http://www.sevencomforts.com/latex-foam-mattress-pad.html

Phoenix has one and might be able to comment on whether or not it might be something for you to try. It is very reasonably priced. Also, I softened up my new latex mattress by walking on it (barefoot of course). It softened up mucho, despite being 30ILD latex in the comfort area. You might try walking on the shoulder area of your mattress for a few minutes to see if softens. At your weight you might not be deflecting the latex enough to break it in.

Good luck. Lew

63

Thank you, Lew. I appreciate all suggestions, advice, and information. I’d not come across this topper before, but here’s the thread where Phoenix learned about it and ended up buying one.

It sounds intriguing, and indeed is very reasonably priced. But this quote from Phoenix makes me think it might not be what I’m looking for (my bold):

We haven’t yet changed back to the PLB Pamper mattress, but when we do I think I will definitely try walking on the shoulder area as you suggest. That sounds quite promising. I didn’t know these mattresses need to be broken in, and I can well imagine my weight may not be sufficient to do so just by lying on it.

Thanks, Lew!

64

Hi KinFol,

You certainly are having somewhat of an “ordeal” and hopefully you will soon find a good solution for both of you.

Before considering doing any business with Foam By Mail (FBM) I would read post #2 here and post #2 here.

The pamper has 2" of soft latex (21 ILD) over firmer latex so the thinness of the layer is what creates its firmness. Because there is 2" on top though … the Seven Comforts may be OK. It’s somewhat “in between” a shredded latex topper or even a memory foam topper and a solid latex layer and it would “allow” your shoulders to sink in a little more than a solid topper (that’s what I meant by point specific pressure relief because it would allow the “bony prominences” to sink in a little more than a solid topper). My daughter used it to “camp” on the floor for a couple of nights and said it was surprisingly comfortable for a 2" topper.

Edit: see post #52 here if you are considering ordering this topper.

As you mentioned … ILD has only minor relevance with memory foam because it responds to pressure, temperature, humidity, and time and all of these can change its ILD. in most cases ILD with memory foam in in the range of around 10 to about 15 which would all be considered soft by the standards of other foam but this can be very misleading because like other viscous materials if you impress them or 'slap" them quickly they are firm but if you press in slowly or if they are warned up they are much softer.

Phoenix

65

Thanks, Phoenix. I thought I’d read a lot of positive posts about FBM before so I hadn’t even looked this time, but I didn’t like what I read in the links you provided so we wouldn’t even consider them.

The Seven Comforts topper sounds intriguing, but my wife is worried about the materials inside since it isn’t Certipur-certified and is made in China. So for now at least, we are going with the 2" memory foam and hope it works out.

I wanted to get the 5-pound density one, but my wife called BB and whomever she spoke with either didn’t really know or couldn’t convey the differences to her satisfaction, so we’re getting the 4-pound one instead. (It was what she felt most comfortable getting.) Unless it’s awful, we will make do with it and finally be done with this.

66

Hi KinFol,

The 4 lb will be a little softer but also has gel particles which will increase its compression modulus (it gets firmer when it is compressed more deeply) which may also be a benefit.

I’m looking forward to your feedback when you receive it. I know it will be a relief in more ways than one when it’s over and done with.

Everyone prefers to actually sleep comfortably instead of trying to figure out how to create the sleeping system that makes it possible :slight_smile:

Phoenix

67

They also have a 4-lb without gel, which is what we bought. Like I wrote, I’d have preferred the 5-lb, but with no definitive difference between the two available from BB, my wife wanted the 4-lb.

We hadn’t considered the gel, as I assumed most are the particles or beads type, which we don’t want. The website (which lacks details, but I understand it’s new) states only “gel-infused”, which I assumed meant particles or beads (maybe we should’ve asked). If it was really the “good” kind (the gel and foam poured together, I think you wrote), then I’d have preferred that one.

Yeah, I definitely look forward to just sleeping and not worrying about it! :slight_smile: Thanks again.

68

Hi Kin Fol,

There are several newer generations of gel memory foam material and once I’ve had a chance to have some longer conversations with some foam chemists (one long conversation I’ve had already) I’ll be updating the gel memory foam information as well. Some of the newer gel memory foam with microencapsulated phase change gel (generation 3) are apparently stronger than their larger particulate counterparts because the beads are small enough to be embedded in the foam struts instead of being inside the cells themselves.

In the meantime … with the exception of gel memory foam with larger particles that can be removed easily from the foam by rubbing … i would treat the better microparticulate versions of gel memory foam as being roughly equal to regular memory foam in terms of durability as new information comes to light.

All the gel memory foams are still relatively new and new versions are coming out as well and it’s difficult to get any technical information about it but slowly more information is coming to light.

Phoenix

69

We have spent a great deal of time of testing out latex mattresses and going to various stores on the California Central Coast. We settled upon Pure Latex Bliss - because of its construction and warranty - and obviously its comfort. We narrowed our choices down to the Nature and the Nutrition - with and without various toppers. Again, after much testing we felt the Nature was our best choice. My wife couldn’t decide if it felt better with the 2" topper - so it was suggested to us to sleep on it for a week and if my wife felt she needed a topper then we could always get it. We then went to a few stores in the area and heard various prices - there was actually a $750 difference between the low price and the high price. Last weekend we went down to Santa Barbara Mattress and dealt with the owner: Spencer Simcik. He invited us to go down to his factory in Ventura and see if one of their own mattresses felt better than the PLB Nature - none did. However, Spencer was a pleasure to deal with - and has ordered a PLB Nature for us at a great price. We have not received it yet but I can tell you if anyone in this area is looking for a mattress then Spencer is the man to see. We feel with the great price that we received and choosing the mattress that felt best for us – plus the advice received from Phoenix on this site made buying a new mattress almost a pleasure!

70

Hi palermo22,

I switched your posts to your own topic so we could see your search from beginning to end.

It’s great to see you did some good research and worked with good people.

I hope you have the chance to give us your feedback once you’ve slept on it but in the meantime … Congratulations on your new mattress :slight_smile:

Phoenix

71

Thanks, Phoenix, that’s very good to hear.

I ordered the memory foam topper a week ago today, and it just arrived at my doorstep (I hadn’t realized their normal shipping time is 2-3 days, but I see that now on their site). But extremely disappointingly, they shipped the wrong topper (the gel one). I guess mistakes happen, but I wish this one hadn’t, as I was sure anxious to switch from the PLB topper.

The gel appears to be the large particle type (depending on the definition of ‘large’). At least I’m able to see and feel the particles on the surface, and could surely pull some out by rubbing if I tried. They appear to be about 1/16" in diameter.

So we aren’t even going to remove it from its wrapping; just ship it back and get the right one.

72

Hi Kinfol,

That’s unfortunate that you received the wrong topper. I think Murphy’s law says that these kind of mistakes happen when they are the least welcome.

I think the problem with gel memory foams is that there really is no clear “definition” of large or small or good or bad … just indications or pointers to what may be better or worse (and conflicting opinions as well).

1/16 sounds small to me but at this point I really don’t know and it will take more experience and hopefully more conversations with people who make the various types to start to get a clear picture on ways that consumers can differentiate between them.

Phoenix

73

Happily Murphy didn’t affect the replacement. To Brooklyn Bedding’s credit, the replacement topper arrived today as promised. They shipped it on Wed using 2-day shipping as we requested, so that was nice. The topper seems to be in pretty good shape (unlike that Costco one). It inflated to 2" thick and proper width in an hour or two. It’s still short by about 1.5", but I don’t think it will grow. I think it was probably cut short, as some toppers seem to be. We’re going to give it at least another day to expand, in case it does.

On the downside, oddly the topper was dirty in a few spots, though it doesn’t really matter. More serious is that there was a warranty sheet included which states it comes with a THREE year warranty against manufacturing defects. That’s very disappointing. Their website states on the topper page that it comes with a 10-year warranty. On the warranty page it says ALL their products have a 10-year warranty. (That page also states the warranty covers indentations of > 1.5", which on a 2" topper is obviously meaningless. I expected something like I’ve seen on other warranties: 1/2" or greater shrinkage from the original thickness.)

I do have to wonder. If I can’t trust what the site states about the warranty, can I trust that is really is Certipur-certified or even made in the US? I’m hoping because of their being a member of this site I can, but I have to say I’m a bit disappointed with some of what’s happened. But it was a good price and if it works (and lasts and is Certipur-certified) then that’s all that really matters.

74

Hi KinFol,

The site clearly says that their toppers have a 3 year warranty which is fairly standard. If you click on “learn more” on every topper you will see they all clearly say 3 years. Topper warranties are against defects (foam cracking and other defects or loss of ability to recover) and usually don’t have an “exclusion” like mattresses.

They are listed on the CertiPur site itself*.

ADMIN NOTE: *Removed 404 link|Archived Footprint: certipur.us/pages/for-consumers/find-products/

The warranty information page you are referring to with the 1.5" exclusion is for mattresses.

It’s possible I guess to find reasons not to trust anyone or anything no matter what their site says.

Phoenix

75

The page that I get when I click on that link does not say anything about a 3-year warranty that I can find. But I do see, very clearly, a “TEN YEAR WARRANTY” banner at the bottom. I tried IE and Firefox in case the browser makes a difference, but they both bring up the same page.

You’re absolutely correct. NOW. However, I took a snapshot of the page yesterday, before I posted this, and it just as clearly stated what I wrote above: “10 year warranty”. So the page has been changed.

This is re-assuring; thank you.

ADMIN NOTE: *Removed 404 link|Archived Footprint: certipur.us/pages/for-consumers/find-products/

Hmmm.

76

Hi KinFol,

Of course it doesn’t … it’s the page that is the main topper page and doesn’t have the links to each product. I think most people would understand that the banner at the bottom refers to their mattresses which is the main product on their site.
The icons are on every page. I linked this page because it is the page that has the links to each individual topper which clearly states that the toppers have a 3 year warranty if you click on each product. Their pillows and other accessories are the same and I think most people realize that these kinds of banners or icons are a generic part of the site. I don’t think that any site whose main focus is mattresses would have a generic banner on the bottom that included itemized descriptions of every detail of every product on the site.

My goodness you are grasping at straws to support your argument. The page is still the same and I think it’s a stretch to imply that your comments suddenly made someone say “oh my goodness we better change the page because we’ve been caught out at a deception”. Real life doesn’t work that way. For what it’s worth … here’s a cached version of the page here from march 25th which is the same as what is showing today … with the 10 year warranty banner … and I think any reasonable person would realize that this applied to their mattresses and would either look at the specific page for an accessory or ask them in person if they were in doubt.

Over the last few days especially there have been quite a few of these types of posts that have somehow lost all perspective and I have been making a point to make sure that consumers realize that what they say and imply needs the same care and scrutiny as what they are “pointing to” in some of the websites they visit. Consumers are usually their own worst enemies when they don’t bring common sense to bear on their purchase decisions or think that it’s somehow OK to say anything at all regardless of its accuracy just because they are consumers and because “consumers are always right”. It doesn’t work that way here and there are already more than enough of these types of sites in existence where anyone can say anything for any reason whether it is legitimate or not.

Again I will repeat … there probably isn’t a site in existence (including this one by the way) that it wouldn’t be possible to find some kind of fault and exaggerate it out of context in an effort to find reasons to insinuate something negative or justify a critical point of view that is mostly about looking to blame others for decisions that were made and needs to have it’s very premise examined a little more closely. You and everyone are free to post here of course … and your thoughts are always welcome … but when you post in this forum the words you write will be under the same scrutiny as the words you are pointing to. The world of business just doesn’t exist in a state of perfection where reasonable interpretations of what you are reading or personal confirmation of things that you are unsure of are somehow not required.

Phoenix

77

You’ve been very helpful to me, and I appreciate it. I see no reason to argue. I can only tell you the truth as I know it. When I ordered the topper, there was NOTHING on the site that I could find that mentioned a 3-year warranty.

Here is the capture of the page I got yesterday

I’m sorry that you chose not to believe me, but there is nothing I can do about that.

78

Hi KinFol,

I looked at your screen capture and also at the cached page here which shows that you are correct. I am the first to acknowledge when I have made a mistake and owe you an apology.

I think you have been caught up in a number of recent posts which touches on one of the things that I feel very strongly about which is the lack of personal responsibility, accountability, and common sense thinking that consumers (and people in general in our society) tend to use and their tendency to “blame” and “look for fault” or “look for agenda” rather than “solve”.

Part of this is when mistakes are identified then there are many people who begin to see agendas or reasons to distrust some of the better manufacturers and retailers in the industry who hold themselves to higher standards … which unfortunately can come to bite them when consumers who are so reactive that they see agendas everywhere when all they have really identified is a mistake that is soon corrected. In many cases even the act or attempt to solve the mistake is criticized.

This is particularly true when there is good recourse (a refund) when a mistake that is corrected means a purchase was made that isn’t what someone reasonably expected and makes a substantive difference in what they would have purchased otherwise.

I certainly understand that someone who makes a purchase that they believed … with good cause … specified a warranty that as you showed was clearly listed incorrectly … even if it is a mistake.

I think that the real issue I have is not so much one of belief but the nature of so much of our society today that holds others accountable to standards that are impossible in practical terms, seeks blame or agenda, or uses mistakes or attempts to correct them as a reason to criticize when it’s just that … a mistake that is being corrected. How mistakes are dealt with usually says more to me than the mistake itself. Identifying mistakes or even registering disappointment with a purchase for good cause is legitimate IMO … when these are used as a basis of questioning the integrity or honesty of a manufacturer or retailer that is clearly above and beyond or becomes the basis of innuendo or allegations that are only speculation or self justification is when I step in to create a more balanced picture and challenge the “facts” behind the complaints or criticisms. I feel strongly that the unreasonable expectations of consumers based on “marketing” and “programming” is as big an issue in the industry (and our society as a whole) as all the other parts that need to change and improve that involve retailers and manufacturers. None of these groups … consumers, retailers, or manufacturers … will change overnight unfortunately. Educated and self responsible consumers are just as rare a commodity these days as better manufacturers or retailers.

When I started this site I was determined that it would never become just another “review site” because of these very issues and the nature of people in general to buy on the approval of others rather than doing their own research and making choices that are based on their own research and discernment and on looking for the “why” behind the “what”. I have seem countless examples of consumers who make a poor comfort choice based on reviews for example and then criticizing the retailer or manufacturer because their mattress didn’t feel or perform the way they expected and talking about the “poor quality” of their mattress instead of the “poor quality” of their purchase decision. This is especially true of online purchases where people often seem to think there is no risk involved (or minimize or ignore the risk) and then hold others responsible for their own mistakes or the “risks” they were willing to take when they make a purchase. One of the goals of the site is to replace foresight with hindsight.

In any case … you are clearly correct in what the page said when you made your purchase and I apologize to you again because in your case you have a valid point which was “overridden” painted with the same brush as many other instances of people who made similar criticisms that weren’t justified or were simply emotional reactions to poor decisions and were more about finding blame or “excuses” for their own decisions.

You purchased a good quality topper with a 3 year warranty with the legitimate belief that it had a 10 year warranty. I understand that this could be disappointing when you are made aware that it had a 3 year warranty. I think your decision now that you know the correct information would be to decide how important the warranty is to you. Warranties are not an indicator of how long a product will last … only how long you can expect them to be free from defects … but if this was a critical part of why you purchased the topper that you did then it would also be reasonable IMO to ask for a refund and start all over again.

Thanks for taking the time to pursue this … and once again making clear that nobody is immune from making mistakes … least of all me :slight_smile:

Phoenix