Pure Latex Bliss Pamper and back pain

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
21

Hi KinFol,

I did know it was Walmart … but sometimes my fingers type faster than my brain works and I was busy looking at Walmart, Costdco, and Sams club to see what they had while I was working on the response. I edited it just for the sake of accuracy :slight_smile:

There are a few that may be worth considering … at least with memory foam. None of them have much in the way of latex at least at reasonable prices except one from Wayfair that would cost shipping both ways to return (they deduct the original shipping on returns). I’ll see if i can link a few “possibilities” a little later.

Phoenix

22

In memory foam I think I’d prefer to try one with gel (but not with beads or particles, as you’ve helpfully pointed out elsewhere), hoping that that might alleviate some of what I didn’t like with memory foam. I don’t think I found one, though, at any of the 3 sites that was 2" with 4 pounds density or greater (I had omitted Wayfair when searching Walmart’s site so I don’t know if there’s one available there or not).

I did find that sleepwarehouse.com offers one, as well as a 16-18 ILD 2" 100% natural latex topper, and they do seem to allow returns. But I suspect just as with Wayfair (and most other places that allow returns), we’d have to pay for shipping both ways. That’s only reasonable, really.

23

Hi KinFol,

I thought I’d list a few options for you. Most of these are “regular” memory foam becuse the big box stores don’t carry any gel memory foam outside of particles that I saw.

With memory foam you may be OK going a little bit thicker than with latex because your lighter parts will sink into it a bit more.

The Sleep Warehouse return policy is here. It looks like they charge a 15% restocking fee plus you pay the shipping back and it has to be received back within 30 days from your order (which means that you would have about 2 weeks or so to try it). I would have a hard time believing that a 4.75 lb Dunlop topper (about 76 kg/m3) is 16 - 18 ILD. It’s more likely much higher.

My Luxury Mattress also has a 120 day return policy with no restocking fee that covers toppers. It’s unclear who pays return shipping but it would be a safe assumption that this is paid by the customer. they only carry “regular” memory foam in 4.5 and 5.3 lbs.

At WalMart:

Aerus Natural 3" Memory Foam Topper w/ 300TC Cotton Cover - Walmart.com This may be well worth trying. With memory foam you could probably get away with a little thicker and Aerus is one of the most open and ventilating (cooler) memory foams available.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Beautyrest-2.5-GeoMax-Memory-Foam-Topper-Twin/15541821 It doesn’t provide the density but it’s in the range in thickness terms and with the refund policy it may be worth a try. I would tend towards the Aerus though.

At Costco:

http://www.costco.com/Natures-Sleep-2.5-inch-Biopolymer-Visco-Mattress-Topper.product.100005516.html this is poured in china but it is CertiPur certified and is a good quality foam. It’s 5 lbs and 2.5" thick so it would be a very good candidate.

http://www.costco.com/Nature’s-Sleep-Visco-Memory-Foam-Topper-with-300TC-Cover.product.100012555.html This is a 4 lb version from Nature’s Sleep and would be a bit softer and more breathable. A little thicker but that’s probably OK (like the 4 lb Aerus).

At Sams Club:

This is a very interesting option. 5 lb Aerus on one side (higher density than you usually find Aerus) and Talalay latex on the other. 2.75". Made by Innomax. this would bive you the option of both types of sleeping surface. It’s more but if it does the job it would be great and again Sams Club has a money back guarantee.

Hope this helps.

Phoenix

24

OF COURSE that helps! Thank you so much, Phoenix, for your tireless efforts. (Seemingly tireless, but being up past midnight, ironically, you must not get much sleep yourself. :frowning: )

I’d missed the 15% restocking fee, so Sleep Warehouse probably isn’t a good option (particularly if they don’t post the correct ILDs of their products).

The Walmart Aerus and Sam’s combo sound the most interesting. I’d seen both of them, but didn’t know if I could/should go as thick as 3" for the Walmart, and didn’t know what to make of the combo design of the Sam’s.

We’re still waiting to hear back about the 2" PLB topper that we might be able to test drive, but if that doesn’t pan out I think we’ll give the Aerus a shot first.

I hope you do get some good sleep!

25

Hi KinFol,

That sometimes is a rare commodity these days … but I sure do enjoy what little of it I have!

I’m looking forward to your feedback on the next step of your journey. If you take one step at a time and all of them are in the same direction … you will certainly get there :slight_smile:

Phoenix

26

At the risk of sounding like a broken record here on the PLB Pamper threads, I seriously think this soft ILD topper concept is the wrong way to go especially when based with a very firm core.

We (she) tried the PLB topper and she crushed right through it. Figure 5’10" ish and 135# guesstimate.

27

[quote=“TD-Max” post=12452][quote=“KinFol”]
We’re still waiting to hear back about the 2" PLB topper that we might be able to test drive, but if that doesn’t pan out I think we’ll give the Aerus a shot first.

[/quote]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record here on the PLB Pamper threads, I seriously think this soft ILD topper concept is the wrong way to go especially when based with a very firm core.

We (she) tried the PLB topper and she crushed right through it. Figure 5’10" ish and 135# guesstimate.
[/quote]

That’s terribly discouraging (particularly as I am 5’ 10", 135 pounds), but actually what I was thinking as well. We just got it about an hour ago, so I’ll find out tonight … :ohmy:

28

I’m not sure what to say, other than it did not completely solve my issues. I have to admit, as much as I like a firm feeling, it did feel more comfortable. However, I still was not able to sleep pain-free. My wife and I actually don’t agree on what happened last night. We both agree after less than 2 hours I complained about hip pain, but she says I was lying on my back when I said it, which seems impossible to me. Anyway, I’ll try again tonight, but I know this won’t do it.

So this morning I ordered this 2", 4-pound memory foam from Costco. I was tempted to also order the 3" Aerus from Walmart and try each of them on alternating nights, but my wife would prefer to try one at a time. She also thinks I won’t like a 3", due to my dislike of the 3" PLB topper when we tried it in-store (she had found it comfortable).

So the saga continues … :slight_smile:

29

When I was shopping I found something that I liked (PLB Nutrition) and then set out to duplicate the feel as closely as possible. I really think you would be better off finding something that works then analyze how it compares to what you have now rather than continually guessing on what might work to patch up what you have now.

If there is a Savvy Rest dealer near you it may be worth trying one as they are configurable layered units.

My thoughts on the matter having handled the various layers is that no matter how many inches of “soft” you stack you’ll still sink in. I’ve become a true believer in the medium density foams up top.

30

Hi KinFol,

I would suggest that if you are testing a topper that you always give it a few nights so that you can see more of a “pattern” with that particular topper. While the 14 ILD latex topper will be more durable than other types of toppers that are in a similar ILD range … they are also very soft and I would tend to use a minimum of 19 ILD if I was choosing latex. Having said that … there are many very firm mattress designs which use several inches of very soft foam on top and they are designed that you will “go through” the softer layers and feel more of the firmer layers underneath. If there was a rough equivalent between memory foam and latex (in spite of their many differences) … it would probably be latex in a very low ILD range. Everything has a use or can be part of an effective design that can be a preference for some people but some designs are more “risky” either in durability terms or in pressure relief and alignment terms than others. In general … 14 ILD latex will be better for people that are quite light and like to sink in a little more or for those that just want a bit of extra surface softness or a little less resiliency on the mattress surface in combination with other firmer layers.

TD-Max’s suggestion to find and test a mattress that has the layering that works for you and then analyze it so you can come as close as you can with a mattress / topper combination is a good one IMO. It can sometimes be difficult because there are so many mattresses that don’t disclose what is in them in enough detail to know what you are testing and also because the designs can be different enough that approximating it can involve “translating” the combined effect of different layers and be more of an intuitive process than a technical process. Adding a topper can be a little tricky for some people because some people need more specific or “accurate” combinations than others while some people can seemingly sleep on anything or at least have a wider range of tolerance in terms of what works well for them and because it’s difficult to test specific combinations in person once you have purchased a mattress.

A combination of a mattress and topper does have advantages over a mattress by itself but getting there can be difficult. This is why it’s usually a good idea if you aren’t sure to try and find sources that offer an exchange at a reasonable cost so that your own experience can replace theory. As TD-Max mentioned he has a Nutrition which has 3" of 27 ILD latex on top and then 2" of 19 ILD underneath it. If you were to test the Nutrition and it worked well for example, then the Pamper with a 28 ILD Talalay topper (or even 3" of Talalay GL with the same ILD) would be very close to this and the “same” mattress would be effectively possible at a lower cost. This would certainly have advantages over the Nutrition because the difference in cost between the Pamper and the Nutrition (in queen) is almost $1000 and you could easily find a 3" latex topper in the right ILD to go on the Pamper for much less than this.

In cases where a mattress you test is quite different from the base you have with any topper at all … then some “intuitive” translations may be involved.

I have also found with mattresses that it’s always best to work with probabilities rather than absolutes because the more you work with people the more it becomes apparent that there are always exceptions to every “rule” and that the differences between each person’s experience can be very different.

Mattress theory and design can be fascinating because it is a combination of some very technical knowledge which can “identify” the specs of various materials and layers and how they perform individually and intuitive understanding which can visualize and imaginatively predict or “feel” how all these layers may interact together with each other and with different body types, sleeping positions, and preferences. Personal testing is the bridge between both of these so that the two types of knowledge can be translated with meaningful reference points and combined together.

I would also use the same topper for several nights before changing so that your body has a chance to keep up and also to identify patterns rather than “instances” which may not be typical of your longer term experience.

One other comment that may be worth making that may very well apply to you is that people who are quite tall and slim often are at both ends of the range. Many prefer a firmer surface so that they can “sprawl” and move “on” the mattress more easily while others may prefer softer than average layering so that their lighter body types can sink “in” the mattress more. While progressive layering is more “conventional” wisdom and even most of the foam manufacturers tend to suggest it when they are working with their mattress manufacturing customers … there are also many instances where “breaking the rules” or at least defying conventional wisdom can be very effective.

As frustrating as it may be … getting to the best possible combination or mattress is worth it in the end. It can take some effort and some testing of various combinations but it can also lead to the “ideal” sleeping system for those who have the patience to persevere.

Phoenix

31

[quote=“TD-Max” post=12543]I really think you would be better off finding something that works then analyze how it compares to what you have now rather than continually guessing on what might work to patch up what you have now.

If there is a Savvy Rest dealer near you it may be worth trying one as they are configurable layered units.
[/quote]
Unfortunately, the mattress was not returnable, except for a one-time ‘comfort exchange’ for any other mattress that particular store carries.

However, as it turns out, this dealer is a Savvy Rest dealer. I recall them mentioning them, but they were much more than I could get elsewhere online for similar, non-“organic” mattresses equally configurable. I didn’t like paying so much more just because they were “organic”. So as a last resort, we could consider doing the comfort exchange, but IIRC the difference in price from the PLB was around $600 or $800. Still something to consider, though – thanks!

32

Hi, Phoenix,

My computer has been down all day, and I’m now late for another night with the topper. So I’ll have to read and digest what you wrote tomorrow. I just didn’t want you to think I missed your post, but my mind just can’t absorb new information at the moment. :slight_smile:

33

Hi, Phoenix,

[quote=“Phoenix” post=12560]
I would suggest that if you are testing a topper that you always give it a few nights so that you can see more of a “pattern” with that particular topper. [/quote]
Excellent suggestion (as usual!). I found the PLB latex topper to be better during nights #2 & 3 than that first night. I awoke a few times on my back, and did not feel any pain. (I could feel some tension, telling me that I would not be happy if I slept the entire night on my back, but I wouldn’t normally sleep on my back for more than a few hours total.) The pain while sleeping on my side was still there, though, undoubtedly awakening me and causing me to change positions. My wife tells me that I’m asking for the impossible, and should be happy enough with this.

Ah, thanks for that. I’ve been wondering where memory foam fit in. It was my understanding that there’s no such thing as an ILD for memory foam, but I assumed there could be a rough ‘ballpark’ figure. Now I know! But I assume density changes that a bit? Memory foam at 3 pounds density would be softer than 5 pounds, wouldn’t it?

I think with this combo I’m now getting closer to what I need, to the degree that I’m not sure I could tell in-store whether a mattress was going to be any better. It really would require sleeping for a night (or two) to determine that. I have to say, if I live long enough to have to buy another mattress (which would be nice), I sure hope by then technology has created a better way of determining what might work for someone.

The store we bought our mattress from doesn’t have a Nutrition in their showroom. There’s only one more store in our area that carries PLB mattresses, but I haven’t checked them out so they might have one. But my problem is as I mentioned at the top; I’d be afraid that even if it felt fine in the store, actually sleeping on it might give a different result. But it’s one more thing to consider trying if I find a place that allows returns of latex toppers.

Well, that pretty much squashes any hope I have of technology ever making this easier. :lol:

At the same time? Because sometimes I do feel I am that way!

Thanks once more, Phoenix, for the help and encouragement.

34

Hi KinFol,

This is where things can get very complicated when you are comparing two completely different materials with very different properties. Memory foam has a typical ILD (IFD is usually used with memory foam and polyfoam) in the range of under 10 to 18 or so but with memory foam ILD can be very misleading because it changes with temperature, humidity, and over time. How firm memory foam feel will also depend on how quickly it is compressed. If you imagine honey for instance if you press into it slowly it will be very soft but if you press into it quickly or slap it, it would feel much firmer. IFD is also measured after a foam is compressed and the force of keeping a foam compressed is what is actually measured so because memory foam absorbs much of the energy that is used to compress it (it has a high hysteresis or absorbs much more energy) the rebound of memory foam is much weaker than latex which is more resilient (absorbs much less energy) and the amount of energy it returns is much greater. latex is very similar on the way down when it is compressed and on the way back up while memory foam is much firmer on the way down than it is on the way back up. Because of all the factors involved … a memory foam that is 14 ILD will generally feel much firmer than a latex layer of the same ILD even though once the foam has softened with heat and you have sunk in they may be more comparable … until you move when once again the “unsoftened” memory foam you are moving into would be much firmer.

Memory foam at 3 lbs would typically have a faster response, be less temperature sensitive, and be more breathable than memory foam with a higher density and would also be less conforming. Most people would consider it to be softer but this is only because of how it responds more quickly and any density of memory foam can have different characteristics depending on the combination of chemicals that are used to make it. Once high density memory foam has softened it can be softer, more conforming, and more pressure relieving than lower density memory foam … until you move.

For most people … testing a mattress in a store can be very accurate if you are fully relaxed, listen for the subtle cues of your body, and test specifically for pressure relief and alignment (instead of a more generalized and subjective overall “feel”). If you have experienced symptoms on a mattress from sleeping overnight you will find that a certain “feel” often equates to certain symptoms over a longer period of time and you can usually get a good idea of which combinations in a store will be close to what you need. This article has some guidelines for testing for pressure relief and this article along with post #11 here has some guidelines for testing for alignment and support. The key is to spend enough time on the mattress fully relaxed, wear loose and thinner clothing (so it doesn’t interfere with what you feel) and listen very carefully to the subtle cues and messages from your body. Some good help that can “eyeball” you for alignment can also help as well.

Again … this would be a matter of spending enough time on each mattress and listening very carefully to the cues from your body and which one reminded you more of the feeling that leads to “symptoms” and which one allows you to fully relax all your muscles without a hint of tension or discomfort or a sense that any part of your body needs to hold itself up instead of letting the mattress do the work.

It would be more typical to be one or the other (preferring firmer than average or softer than average) but if you were both then it would be even more difficult because they are somewhat contradictory. The key would probably be to have just enough surface softness that the “feel” was soft but became firmer more quickly so that you also had free movement and didn’t sink in more than was comfortable.

Hopefully you will have the chance to test the PLB’s but you mentioned there was also a Savvy Rest dealer nearby so you could test both the soft and the medium Talalay top layer to see which you preferred. There may also be some other options closer to you I may be aware of if you let me know the city you are in.

Nothing is ever “impossible” although it may be difficult :slight_smile:

My sense is that you are getting closer and if you find a way to test a soft and a medium latex layer that this along with the Aerus topper that is still to come may be all you need to decide what would be best for you. I have a sense that your best choice will be somewhere in this mix.

Phoenix

35

Unfortunately, the mattress was not returnable, except for a one-time ‘comfort exchange’ for any other mattress that particular store carries.

However, as it turns out, this dealer is a Savvy Rest dealer. I recall them mentioning them, but they were much more than I could get elsewhere online for similar, non-“organic” mattresses equally configurable. I didn’t like paying so much more just because they were “organic”. So as a last resort, we could consider doing the comfort exchange, but IIRC the difference in price from the PLB was around $600 or $800. Still something to consider, though – thanks!
[/quote]

If you have a comfort exchange then that is what I would pursue rather than spending more money on random toppers trying to make what’s not working become acceptable.

See if you can find a store with either the PLB Nature or Nutrition.

The Savvy suggestion was not that you buy one, it’s simple: The mattress is configurable so you can work with the different configurations to find something that works and then apply the “recipe” to the PLB line to find what matches most closely.

soft-med-firm would be more like the Nature

med-soft-firm would be more like the Nutrition

36

I get it now, and I agree with your idea. But despite the excellent advice you and Phoenix have written (and Phoenix has been particularly detailed on how to test in-store), I honestly no longer believe I can lay on a mattress for a bit and determine whether or not it’s right for me. Even when testing these toppers, I’ve found that the first night’s experience doesn’t necessarily tell the whole story. So if I need multiple nights to be sure, how could I know by simply spending 15 minutes?

Besides that, my wife is past the point of doing a comfort exchange. She wants to keep the Pamper, so a topper is my only choice. :frowning:

It’s about time for an update. The Costco topper (2", 4lb memory foam) came almost 2 weeks ago, but we didn’t try it until 2 nights ago. When unpacked it was severely deformed, and we’d been waiting for it to regain its shape. It never did fully do so (at least, not yet), so we will be returning it today. But I tried it for 2 nights and found it considerably better than the PLB 2" 14 ILD latex topper. It’s almost perfect, but not quite. I still do get some side pain after quite a few hours, but that’s a huge improvement from the Pamper alone, and a noticeable improvement from the Pamper and latex topper. I can also sleep on my back for longer, though still do get some pain there, too, after awhile.

I could settle on this as good enough, but since we want to return it anyway due to its still odd shape, I’m going to try one of the other choices first. It’s between a 2.5", 5lb or a 3" 4lb. Unfortunately my wife doesn’t want either (she was willing to go up to a 2.5" 4lb, but that was it), so I’m not sure what we’ll get.

Even if I don’t post for a while, I do promise to return for the conclusion of this saga.

37

Hi KinFol,

This is a great comment and widely held belief but it’s really a matter of shifting the odds in your favor as much as possible.

It’s easy to test for pressure relief in a store because this is what you feel when you first lie on a mattress.

It’s more difficult to test for alignment but if you follow the more objective process I suggest then this can also be done with reasonable accuracy in the store as well. If you lie on a mattress that gives you good alignment (and a good salesperson can help with this as well) then you may still find that you may have some discomfort when you sleep on the mattress at home because your body may be used to sleeping on the old mattress and have a “sleeping memory” based on that and needs to adjust to a more aligned position. This way though, the odds are much more in your favor that this initial discomfort will go away and that you will adjust to a new sleeping position that is more neutral and aligned once the adjustment period is over because of your specific testing in the store.

Nothing is perfect or “guaranteed” of course but if you test objectively then the odds are much better that you will end up with a mattress that works very well for you in the longer term and is close enough to your “ideal” that you will only need to do some relatively minor fine tuning instead of more major adjustments that come from choosing the wrong mattress design completely.

Your experience with the topper is very encouraging and clearly shows you are heading in the right direction … even if it’s not perfect. It’s unfortunate that it didn’t come back completely (and this isn’t that unusual when a topper has been compressed for a long period of time in a warehouse) so you could test it for a little longer. I can also understand how it could be better than a 14 ILD latex topper though which can allow you to “go through” it much more easily.

In terms of a mattress/topper choice I think you are heading in the right direction in your thinking but I also think that some careful local testing could be very beneficial (especially if you spend at least 15 minutes together on the mattress AFTER you are fully relaxed and with light clothing and a suitable pillow).

Of course I’ll leave the choice of which direction to go next up to the “negotiations” between you but I should also mention that finding a mattress or combination that is as close as possible can have a more significant effect on your overall wellbeing for the next decade or more than almost anything else you will buy and IMO at least is well worth the shorter term effort and even frustration of getting as close as possible to your “ideal”.

I’m looking forward to hearing about what your next or hopefully even “final” step may be :slight_smile:

Phoenix

38

We spent a few hours in the store today, trying a couple of other PLBs (mainly Nature), a few Savvy Rests, and an Organicpedic (OMI). The PLB Nature was clearly more conforming and (if I ignored my bias towards liking a firm feeling) more comfortable than our Pamper. Also compared the Nature and Bliss with a 2" 14 ILD PLB topper; again, the Nature felt better. So even switching to the Nature would require a topper. And it’s a $1250 upgrade to go from the Nature to the Bliss (plus tax and perhaps incidental charges). For $100 less, we could switch to a 3-layer, 3" latex from OMI. Granted the warranty is only half as good as PLB’s, and I don’t know if they use Latex Int’l or not. But the ability to customize to the best of my abilities would make me probably chose that over the Nature. I tried a few combos, and would probably go for a firm Dunlop base, medium Talalay middle, and extra soft Talalay top layer. (The configuration I tried was similar but with a soft Talalay layer.)

But for that kind of money, I’m quite motivated to keep on trying toppers (though I’ll probably have only one more chance before the exchange window closes). I think I’m going to try a 3", 4lb density memory foam next, though the more I learn about memory foam the less likely it seems that I can have a clue what the topper is going to feel like until I actually get it. There doesn’t seem to be any reliable way to compare one topper to another via specifications available online.

39

Hi Kinfol,

I’m not sure which mattress you mean by the “Bliss”. They don’t have a model by that name. In one part of your comments you mentioned that the Nature (which is the next step up from the pamper) seemed to be “more comfortable” by itself and yet you also mentioned it would require a topper. Was it still too firm without a topper even though it was more comfortable? In any case if the Nature did require a topper it would need a thinner one than the Pamper because it already has a thicker and softer comfort layer than the Pamper (although not as thick and soft as the higher models)

Again … I’m not clear which mattress you mean by the “Bliss”. Could you clarify?

OMI does use latex international but they use the 'all natural"Talalay which may not be as durable … at least in lower ILD’s than the blended Talalay used in the PLB. Their prices are also very high (much higher than anything equivalent in the PLB line).

I’m a little confused at what your options are, the prices for each, and the specifics of how each one felt to you so it would probably help me to describe them in more absolute terms by describing the specific layering of each option you are considering (one at a time) and the price for each of them along with comments and a more specific description of how each option felt to you in terms of pressure relief and alignment. I think this would make things clearer for me.

I certainly agree that for the price of an OMI you could buy a lot of toppers but more specific details of exactly what you tested and how they compared (again in a little more specific and detailed terms) would be helpful.

Maybe it’s just too late at night for my brain to “unravel” the information :slight_smile:

Phoenix

40

[quote=“Phoenix” post=13725]
I’m not sure which mattress you mean by the “Bliss”.

Maybe it’s just too late at night for my brain to “unravel” the information :)[/quote]

No, it was too late at night for my brain to type the information. :slight_smile:

I meant to type “Pamper”, not “Bliss”. And I did it that least twice. I guess once I had “Bliss” in my mind, it wasn’t going to leave.

Pressure relief is easier for me to describe than alignment, as I had only my wife to tell me about the latter, and though she tries, she’s not an expert. She seemed to concentrate on my neck area, suggesting that when I’m on my side I’m not positioning my neck properly, seemingly regardless of the mattress.

As for pressure relief, the one that felt the best was the Nature with a 2" 14 ILD PLB topper. My shoulder seemed to sink in enough, yet my back still seemed to be supported enough – though I felt I could’ve used a bit more conforming around my lower back (I thought I still detected a small amount of tension there). (Try as I might, I really can’t seem to judge pressure around my hips, though. The day before I tried to spend 15 minutes on our Pamper without a topper, to feel the pressure on my hips. Instead I fell asleep for 30 minutes, and still didn’t feel anything after waking up. So maybe my wife is right that the hip pain is just from being in one position for several hours, and no mattress will cure that. Though I’d swear it seemed better when using that memory foam topper …)

I did not get the ILDs for the OMI layers I tried; they have them labeled simply as “firm”, “medium”, and “soft”. Though by squeezing the individual layers, it was easy to tell the difference between Dunlop with the same firmness label as a Talalay one (first time I’d tried that). The one I liked best had a Dunlop firm bottom layer, a Dunlop medium middle layer, and a Talalay soft top layer (the other choices they had set up were more firm, so I barely spent any time on those). The store was a bit crowded at this time, so I didn’t get to spend a lot of time on it to form much more of an opinion, other than it was the best of the OMI choices. But my shoulder didn’t seem to sink in far enough to be ideal as is. I didn’t get to find out if they had other layers I could try, but I hope so. As I wrote last night, I’d guess that my best choice would be a firm Dunlop base, a medium Talalay middle, and an extra soft Talalay top layer. But unless and until I can actually try that combination, it’s just a guess.

As for pricing, as I said (well, as I meant to say!), to upgrade from Pamper to Nature (not “Nature to Bliss”, good grief), would cost us $1250 plus, whereas an OMI with 2 Talalay and 1 Dunlop layer would cost almost exactly the same (about $100 less). (A Talalay layer costs $250 more than a Dunlop layer, so with 1 Talalay and 2 Dunlop layers it would be $350 less than the Nature. But I’m guessing a medium Dunlop would be too firm for me, and a soft Dunlop middle layer might not offer enough support – all conjecture, though.) The OMI of course has the advantage of being able to make changes like that, even a few years down the road. But the disadvantage is the warranty at just 10 years, and based on what you wrote, that’s because it just shouldn’t be expected to last as long as the PLB’s blended Talalay.

I hope this reply makes a bit more sense, though I realize it’s somewhat short on specifics.