RE: Berkeley versus Charles P Rogers and Pocket Coil versus Latex?

I’ve been reading several of your posts because I’m trying to make an informed decision before purchasing a new mattress and bed frame. I’m considering ordering a Charles P Rogers Nano2 mattress and Medina platform bed frame and having them shipped to me in Canada. This would be a very expensive purchase, especially given the costly shipping, Canadian exchange rate and border duties and taxes. If it’s my best interest in the long run, though,then I wouldn’t regret doing so. I also looked at two Berkeley mattresses at a local independent shop here in Calgary, Alberta, and they too would set me back a comparable amount, so any advice you can offer regarding the following questions would be much appreciated:

  1. The Berkeley mattresses use wool (and some have camel hair as well for temperature regulation) as a fire retardant, and it’s been difficult to find out exactly what the Nano2 uses. I’m vegan and would prefer not to have animal products in my mattress, yet I also am not keen to have a synthetic chemical fire retardant in my mattress. Can you offer any advice about this issue … what are the pros and cons of wool versus synthetic fire retardants?

  2. I looked at both a Berkeley latex (Copenhagen) and hybrid pocket coil/latex (Cairo - seems comparable to the CPR Nano2) mattress. I’m still on the fence regarding the pros and cons of each type of mattress with respect to high quality sleep support, longevity and minimal off-gassing of materials. The salesperson said the top latex layer inside the latex mattress can be replaced down the road but not in the pocket coil mattress - I’m not sure, though, that this is a deal breaker. I know the OBG recommends a hybrid pocket coil/latex mattress for best overall support and durability. Do you think one type of mattress is generally better than the other?

  3. I’m also considering an adjustable bed base but have read mixed reviews. I like the idea of raising my head to relieve sinus congestion and reflux, but is a platform bed like the Medina a better long term investment? Am I looking for trouble with an electric bed base? If so, I would forego an adjustable bed base and use a wedge. The local mattress store I shopped at carries the Ergomotion E4 and Reverie 3E adjustable bed bases. The salesperson said if I buy an adjustable bed base then the latex mattress would work better. He also said a platform bed base should be slatted to allow for air circulation, yet the CPR salesperson told me the opposite - that a platform bed frame should be solid for optimal support. So confusing! Any thoughts on bed bases, electric versus platform and slatted versus solid platform??!

I’m looking forward to your advice; I presently feel quite confused as to which direction I should be headed in with respect to investing in a high quality mattress and bed frame. Thank you very much!

Hi JLJ:

Welcome to the Mattress Forum! :slight_smile:

Very good – you’re taking the proper steps in making an informed mattress decision!

It is required is that a mattress pass the 16 CFR 1632 and 1633 fire regulations with or without the use of fire retardant chemicals (the method of passing the regulations isn’t specified in the regulations). The most common method used to pass the regulations is the use of inherent fire barrier fabrics that are either quilted into the cover or are wrapped around the inner materials of the mattress like a sock. There is more information about fire retardant methods that are commonly used in the industry in post #2 here and in post #4 here (which also has some information about potentially obtaining a mattress without any FR barrier with a prescription from a health care individual). I would consider the more common viscose/silica fire barrier to be a very safe material, and of course would have the same opinion about wool. If your personal preference is to use something other than an animal product, then you most likely FR barrier would be a viscose/silica blend.

They use the inherent rayon/silica barrier.

I don’t have the particular specifications of each mattress you listed, but the latex Berkeley Ergonomics uses is very high quality Vita Talalay from Radium Foam and it is Cradle To Cradle Gold certified – the only Talalay in the world to have this certification. They also use GOTS certified and Oeko-Tex certified organic cotton and GOTS certified and Oeko-Tex certified organic wool. These items would have passed strict testing for VOCs and harmful substances, so I personally wouldn’t have any concerns for off-gassing of these specific materials.

I’m guessing you’ve read this already but for the sake of others that may read your post you can see my comments about the Old Bed Guy and his website (and some of the very strange comments he makes) in this topic. There is “some” good information on his site and some information that is questionable at best and misleading, inaccurate, or deceptive at worst. While many people may be happy with one of his Charles P Rogers suggestions (and you can get a backstory in the previous link as to one of the reasons he recommends them so much) … there will always be some that won’t be as well (see this topic as an example).

While other people’s comments about the knowledge and service of a particular business can certainly be very helpful … I would always keep in mind that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and I would be cautious about about using anyone else’s suggestions, experiences or reviews on a specific mattress (either positive or negative) or review sites in general as a reliable source of information or guidance about how you will feel on the same mattress or how suitable or how durable a mattress may be for you. In many if not most cases they can be more misleading than helpful because a mattress that would be a perfect choice for one person or even a larger group of people in terms of “comfort”, firmness, and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your own Personal preferences) may be completely unsuitable for someone else to sleep on (even if they are in a similar weight range). In other words … reviews or other people’s experiences in general won’t tell you much if anything about the suitability, quality, durability, or “value” of a mattress for any particular person (see post #13 here).

There really is no one “best” type of mattress, but more importantly, finding the components that “best” do what you’re desiring them to do and are most appropriate for your specific application. You’d want to make sure that the materials in any mattress you’re considering would meet the durability guidelines here relative to your weight range … the choice between different types and combinations of materials and components or different types of mattresses are more of a preference and a budget choice than a “better/worse” choice (see this article). The best way to know which types of materials or mattresses you tend to prefer in general terms will be based on your own local testing or your own personal experience (which is possible for you with the Berkeley Ergonomics, but not with the Charles P. Rogers mattresses).

These are questions that only you can answer for yourself as to the appropriateness of any particular product. The platform bed you mentioned seems to be made of quality materials, although I can’t ascertain what is used for the deck pieces. Most of the major adjustable bed manufacturers put out a good quality product, so I wouldn’t necessarily have a concern about any of them being “trouble.” It really comes down to if you think that the advantage of being able to adjust the head and foot section of your mattress is desirable and if you’d use it enough to make the extra price worthwhile to you.

If you’re simply concerned with slight elevation, a wedge can work well, provided the wedge uses foam of a high enough density and ILD, and the angle is appropriate for you.

An all-latex mattress will generally conform better and last longer than a typical innerspring mattress when used in an adjustable bed configuration.

If you have a solid surface support system under their mattress (like when being placed upon solid decks) then something like a this coir bed rug could be placed underneath the mattress and it would increase ventilation under the mattress as well as reduce the chance of moisture being trapped under the mattress. A solid surface support system that doesn’t provide any ventilation underneath the mattress can add to the risks of moisture retention and developing mold or mildew or dust mites in a mattress but if there aren’t any additional risk factors involved then it should be fine. A bedroom in a basement would be more likely to have issues than one on the third floor. Increased air circulation can also assist with temperature regulation.

Just in case you haven’t already read it, the first place to start your research is the mattress shopping tutorial here which includes all the basic information, steps, and guidelines that can help you make the best possible choice … and perhaps more importantly know how and why to avoid the worst ones.

Two of the most important links in the tutorial that I would especially make sure you’ve read are post #2 here which has more about the different ways to choose a suitable mattress (either locally or online) that is the best “match” for you in terms of “comfort”, firmness, and PPP that can help you assess and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for and post #13 here which has more about the most important parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well he will sleep), durability (how long he will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you (including the price of course and the options you have available after a purchase if your choice doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for).

I hope that’s helpful!

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

Thank you very much for your reply. I checked and the Berkeley latex mattress at the local shop can only be made with wool, which I’m not entirely comfortable with because I have no way of knowing how the animals are raised or treated. Also, there is no trial/return period to ensure satisfaction with the Berkeley mattress and therefore no advantage to buying locally unless I go back to a big-chain store like Sleep Country. Also, as tempting as it is, I don’t think I’m in the market just yet for an adjustable bed base - they’re very heavy and I’m not sure they’re necessary in order to get a good night’s sleep (if you think they improve quality of sleep I’d reconsider). This leads me to believe the Nano2 and wood bed frame might still be the best alternative: no animal products and seemingly high quality construction. As you mentioned, it would be better if I could see the bed first-hand, but this is unfortunately not possible. I’m still trying to make the most informed decision I can and am hoping you can help me with these final questions:

  1. Am I understanding you correctly that the fire retardant in the Charles P Rogers’ Nano2 mattress (rayon/silica) is not a health hazard? Do you know if they spray the mattress with any additional synthetic chemicals, or is the rayon/silica a non-issue in terms of health and off-gassing?
  2. In your opinion, is the Nano2 a high quality mattress with respect to materials and construction? Are you aware of any negative feedback or unhealthy components in this mattress that I may have overlooked?
  3. CPR also has a Nano mattress but it looks like the firmer version - do you have any general advice regarding the Nano versus the Nano2 for side sleepers? Is more latex on top generally better for pressure points?
  4. Sleep Country carries a Kingsdown hybrid mattress but I’m not convinced that the foam is as high quality as the Nano’s latex layers - any thoughts on this brand?
  5. Finally, are there any other mattresses (preferably available in Canada) that you would recommend before I take a leap of faith and order a CPR mattress? I know mattress comfort is a subjective experience, but there is still a lot to be said about quality materials and construction.

Thank you again for any advice you can offer - it makes it easier to navigate the world of mattresses with unbiased advice.

Hi LJL,

Articles that claim silica used in mattresses to be a health hazard (your definition of what constitutes a health hazard is completely individual) don’t take into account that there are different types of Silica besides “silica glass” (crystalline) and they don’t pose a respiratory hazard at all in the form they are used in an inherent viscose/silica fire barrier. As the link shows, Crystalline Silica is the form that can cause Silicosis and is both toxic and fibrogenic. Amorphous silica is toxic but not fibrogenic, and silica gel or silicic acid (the form in inherent fire barrier fabrics) is neither toxic or fibrogenic. You can read more about this in post #2 here but I would consider a viscose/silica fire barrier to be a very safe material.

Your question is very broad. I’m guessing you are asking about spraying the product with extra chemicals to meet FR guidelines. That would be a question best addressed to CPR directly, but I don’t believe that they use any chemical treatments to help pass FR.

You can read more about microcoils (or nanocoils) that are used in comfort layers in this article and in post #8 here and post #2 here. They would be a durable choice that can work well for those that prefer the more springy feel of microcoils in the comfort layers of their mattress. The mattress also uses latex, which is a durable material. They don’t provide the complete specifications about the thickness of these layers, or exactly what is used in their quilt, so you’d want to find out that information and make sure it all meets with the mattress durability guidelines I linked to in my earlier reply.

In my previous reply I also commented on not using other people’s reviews (positive or negative) as a manner in determining the value or appropriateness of any mattress and how it might work for you.

The only reliable way to assess the “safety” of different materials in more general terms is based on lab tests and the certifications they have for harmful substances and VOCs (regardless of whether they are organic or natural or synthetic) so that you have some assurance than the VOCs are below the testing limits for the certification. If the materials in a mattress or the mattress itself has a reliable “safety” certification, then for most people they would certainly be “safe enough” … regardless of the type of material or the name of the manufacturer on the label.

There is more information in post #2 here and more about some of the differences between organic and safety certifications in post #2 here and there are also some comments in post #42 here that can help you decide whether an organic certification is important to you for environmental, social, or personal reasons or whether a “safety” certification is enough, if you’re concerned about having certifications for the materials in any mattress.

This seems like that is what they are trying to achieve but they are not completely detailed with their specifications so you’d want to place a phone call with them and discuss this. When you can’t test a mattress in person then the most reliable source of guidance is always a more detailed phone conversation with a knowledgeable and experienced retailer or manufacturer that has your best interests at heart and who can help “talk you through” the specifics of their mattresses and the properties and “feel” of the materials they are using (fast or slow response, resilience, firmness etc.) and the options they have available that may be the best “match” for you based on the information you provide them, any local testing you have done or mattresses you have slept on and liked or other mattresses you are considering that they are familiar with, and the “averages” of other customers that are similar to you. They will know more about “matching” their specific mattress designs, options, and firmness levels to different body types, sleeping positions, and preferences (or to other mattresses that they are familiar with) than anyone else.

You haven’t listed the exact specifications of the model you mentioned, so there’s no way for me to make any objective comments upon that particular mattress in terms of quality of componentry.

While I can certainly help with “how” to choose … It’s not possible to make specific suggestions or recommendations for either a mattress, manufacturers/retailers, or combinations of materials or components because the first “rule” of mattress shopping is to always remember that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components or which type of mattress would be the best “match” for you in terms of “comfort”, firmness, or PPP or how a mattress will “feel” to you or compare to another mattress based on specs (either yours or a mattress), sleeping positions, health conditions, or “theory at a distance” that can possibly be more reliable than your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or your own personal sleeping experience (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here).

If you want to look online you can use the experience and expertise of the members listed in post #21 here who are all very experienced and knowledgeable and specialize in providing the type of help and guidance on the phone that can help you make good choices, and there are some who have brick and mortar stores in Canada and ship in Canada. I believe that all of them compete well with the best in the industry in terms of their quality, value, service, and transparency. There is also a list of online mattress sources for Canadians in post #21 here.

Phoenix

Thank you again for your detailed reply! Here are my final questions:

  1. In your opinion, do you think a latex mattress can be high quality without the wool quilting in the cover?
  2. Is it a myth that metal innersprings can conduct radio waves and be a health hazard?
  3. Do you know if adjustable bed bases (like the Reverie 3E) expose people to unhealthy levels of EMF’s?
  4. I’m wondering if a mattress shop that is not a member of the Mattress Underground (Eg. CPR) indicates a particular concern with their products?
    Thank you again for all of your advice!

Hi JLJ,

I’ll do my best to answer your questions.

Certainly. The ultimate jobs of the mattress cover in a component system is to assist in keeping the contents contained, to help provide protection (UV rays, abrasion, liquids, etc.), potentially help pass federal flammability regulations, potentially assist in temperature regulation and also contribute to the final comfort of the product, amongst other things. The type of cover used comes down to your own personal preference as part of your PPP and the quality of components used to make the cover.

You can see some comments about innersprings and electromagnetic (EMF) fields in these post here. It’s certainly not something that would concern me in any way.

I’ve seen no compelling, objective and reproducible data supporting this and would personally have no concern (you can again reference my post above). Most motors on the power foundations operate only when a button is pressed to have them move the position of the base unit, then they are off. Most bases are also UL or ETL certified, although I’m not aware of the specific protocols used for each manufacturer and whether or not testing for EMFs is included for these items. If you have a personal concern, you can always hire a company to perform a test for EMFs in your home.

It would not necessarily be correct to infer that I “have a concern” with a manufacturer/store by the omission of that manufacturer/store from this site. I will state that an invitation to be a member of this site is only done after a very extensive vetting process (which would exclude about 90% of the stores in this industry), confirming that the business is completely transparent about the materials in their mattresses and that they share the goals and ideals of this site.

The goal of the site has always been to provide information about “how” to choose a mattress that provides the tools and information that will make the quality and value of a purchase self evident so that each person has the knowledge and information to be able to assess the suitability, quality/durability, and value of a mattress purchase for themselves based on their own unique needs and preferences and criteria regardless of what anyone else may prefer or recommend and without having to “believe” anyone. One of the most important goals of the site has always been to be fact based and to promote full disclosure so that anyone can validate the information for themselves and not have to “just believe” anyone (including me), and I’m always happy to point to good specifications or value whenever I find it, regardless of membership here.

I hope that helps!

Phoenix

Again, thank you very much for all of your help! I am flip flopping now and am reconsidering the Reverie 3E adjustable bed. Do you think these frames are too heavy for an upper floor with a latex mattress? Also, if you have any recommendations for wooden platform bases in Calgary, AB, I’d love to know.

Also, I am now going to visit Halstead Mattresss Maker in Calgary (a member of your site). Because they custom make your mattress, in your opinion, is there any advantage to layering coil springs (and possibly nano springs) with latex versus an all latex mattress?

I am once again looking forward to your reply!

Hi JLJ,

You’re very welcome.

I wouldn’t have a concern with the weight concentration of an adjustable bed and mattress. You wouldn’t be close to approaching the load capacity per square foot of any modernly-constructed home.

Two of the members here, Halstead Mattress Makers (custom designs) and The Mattress & Sleep Company, offer platform beds, but otherwise I don’t maintain a listing of furniture options in Calgary.

This would be down to your personal preference of feel and pricing – parts of your personal PPP. I would use the results of your own personal testing combined with the advice of the people at Halstead and use that information to arrive at a decision. The support core of a mattress, whether innerspring or latex, isn’t usually the weak link within the mattress, and it would be more of a decision based upon your response to the support characteristics each item provides, as well as the influence upon comfort that each item has.

Phoenix

Thank you so much for all of your advice and information - what an incredible service you provide! I hope I haven’t inundated you with questions, but it seems that one question leads to another! I was asking about latex versus coil springs because I’ve had latex pillows that lose their shape over time, and I also thought maybe coil springs allow for more ventilation in a mattress as opposed to solid latex? Also, a salesperson told me that UV rays can harm latex mattresses, even when covered with a protector and sheets … ?

Lastly, would you happen to know if the Reverie 3E adjustable bed base is a quality frame and if Reverie is a reliable company? I checked with both of the local companies you mentioned, and to get a stained wood platform bed base built is nearly as expensive, and in some cases more expensive, than buying the 3E adjustable base, so cost is not the primary deciding factor.

Thank you again!

Hi JLJ,

Thank you! Questions are always welcome – that’s what this site is all about.

Latex is in general the most durable of all foam comfort materials, so I personally wouldn’t have a concern with durability. Not knowing the exact composition of your pillow, it is subject to different shear forces and stresses than the foam contained within a mattress, so I wouldn’t expect even a good latex pillow to last as long as foam layers used within a mattress. Spring units certainly will be more breathable than a layer of foam, but latex is a quite breathable product (Talalay more so than Dunlop).

Latex ages by oxidation through exposure to oxygen, ozone, ultraviolet light, and through exposure to various metal ions (especially copper) and various chemical compounds (see here for a list). The amount of aging from UV would be relatively minor in a finished latex mattress that is covered and wouldn’t be as high on the list as mechanical forces for impacting durability, and in my opinion wouldn’t be a concern.

The major power foundation companies in North America (Reverie, Leggett & Platt, Rize, Ergomotion) all make decent products, so I wouldn’t have a concern purchasing from any of them. Reverie is a member here of the site, which means that I do think highly of them.

Phoenix

Thank you so much for your invaluable advice and information! Once I find out what Halstead recommends for me, I’d like to run their ideas by you if you don’t mind before I finalize the order.

I was saddened to hear that your husband recently passed away. My deepest sympathy for your loss.

Hi JLJ,

I’ll look forward to your comments.

And thank you for your kind words.

Phoenix

Hi again Phoenix,

I hope you are having a good Christmas.

After doing a pressure point evaluation at Halstead, they recommended the following for me: A pocket coil core with latex per side (30), pocket coil insert segments (2 @ 20, 4 @ 28), and a bamboo plush eurobox top. I’ll also be getting a Leggett and Platt adjustable bed base. I would really appreciate your feedback on this order.

I’m a little concerned about the cool gel foam in the topper - I was hoping to get an all-natural mattress, but I did stipulate that it not have any animal products, so maybe the gel foam is the best compromise? (Halstead said that a cotton topper would trap more moisture and instead recommended this bamboo topper with the gel foam … apparently there is no VOC off-gassing.) Is there anything else you would recommend for the top layer; would talalay latex be a better choice?

Looking forward to your comments and feedback!

Hi JLJ,

Thank you! You as well.

Unfortunately, you’re not providing me much meaningful information about which I can make comments. I’d need a more complete description of each layer within the mattress. All I can discern is that the product is using latex somewhere in the construction (is 30 the ILD?), but I don’t know anything about the type of latex, where it is located or the thickness. While the product is using a pocketed coil core unit, I’m unclear what you mean about the inserts or how those are arranged. Additionally, you mention there is gel foam in the topper, but again you don’t mention anything about the thickness or the density of the foam. So you’d need to be more complete in your details for me to comment.

As you’re already aware from my previous comments, I can’t pick out a mattress for you – I can only comment on the quality of the componentry. The people at Halstead are very knowledgeable about their products (they’re members here which means that I think highly of them) and I certainly would trust their recommendations to you based upon the time you spent there. Plus, they have the ability to change out layers for you should your initial choice turn out to not work out as well as you had hoped.

Again, I’m not sure what your other options were and to what you are comparing, so it’s impossible for me to make any meaningful comments for you. Was the other option wool, and you didn’t want that because it was an animal product?

I think you may have misunderstood what they stated about the gel foam, as there certainly would be some off-gassing of any polyfoam, but perhaps it is Certi-PUR certified for low VOC?

I would have no idea what would be the best choice for you for the upper layer of your mattress. The choice between memory foam and latex is a personal preference in what feels best to you based upon your own testing – I can only comment upon the quality of the foams you would be considering and the different characteristic of each foam, I’m guessing that you tried out these different configurations when you visited Halstead and again I would trust the combinations you arrived at when you visited based upon their recommendations and your opinions of the products when you tested them out in person.

Testing out these configurations in person with a knowledgeable comfort consultant or manufacturer would be the most accurate predictor of the potential applicability of a product for your particular needs (which you did) and trying to go through that process again via “theory at a distance” doesn’t make much sense and really only serves to complicate the matter, which is of course not what I would want to do for you. The only commentary that I could provide that might be helpful to you would be an affirmation on the quality of componentry you’re considering, but I would need a bit more complete information as I mentioned earlier. Right now, I know that you’re considering using a pocketed spring unit and some latex. The innerspring unit is rarely the wink link in a mattress, and all latex is generally a very high quality material.

Other than that, I’m sorry that I really can’t provide much meaningful information at this time based upon what you’ve provided.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,
I think I’ve sorted it all out. Yes, the numbers I provided are the ILD’s. My mattress layers include a core layer of pocket coils, then 4 latex segments that sit side by side and can be flipped independently, and finally a latex topper with a polyester vapour barrier under the mattress cover. I’m feeling positive about this configuration and have a trial period to make sure the mattress is comfortable.

Thank you again for being such a helpful sounding board and wealth of information!

Wishing you all the best in the New Year.

Hi JLJ,

Congratulations on your new mattress purchase.:cheer:

You certainly made a very good quality choice, and I’ll be excited to learn about your comments once you’ve received it and the adjustable bed bases and have had the chance to try them out for a while.

Happy New Year to you as well!

Phoenix