Oh ok, so the other latex had holes in it too, I just wasn’t paying attention I guess. Thanks for the breakdown of layers for the pure latex bliss, that’s why I liked the 10" because it has the softer comfort layer.
Do you know anything else about Nature’s Rest? The manufacturer that I went to was biscayne bedding in miami, so I guess he sells their line but he also said they make the mattresses in the back and had the raw materials to show me. But, I did a search for that line and on sleep like the dead I found this:
Not sure if that review means anything, but you said their newer models are very nice, so could that be based on their older models? And what did you mean by some places having good value? I’m sure the fact that biscayne bedding is on your list of manufacturers means that they are ok, but I just wanted to double check first.
Is there anything else I can do to see if I’d like a layer of 24 better than a 19? I tried all the manufacturers on the list for my area. I mean the nature’s rest is the best one I found so far and would probably get it, but if I like how a 24 comfort layer feels, isn’t better to go with firmer rather than softer if it feels similar? If it’s not going to make much of a difference then I’ll just get the nature’s rest one and save myself the headache lol.
The 12" model has much softer comfort layers so I’m guessing you might have them mixed up.
Many of the old Natures Rest (before Spring Air went bankrupt) used to have polyfoam above the latex and of course this develops impressions much sooner than latex. Most people who do reviews have little idea about what is in their mattress and if the store calls it a “latex mattress” … then they usually assume that it’s the latex that is developing impressions. Since the bankruptcy … the Nature’s rest have just latex and are better IMO. It’s always important to remember when reading reviews that brand names don’t develop impressions … materials do. It’s always the construction and materials not the brand which are either the strength or weakness of a mattress. Of course having said that … some manufacturers consistently tend to use either better or worse materials. The Spring Air brand names are made by many manufacturers including some smaller independents.
I meant that not every place will sell them for the same price and some may have better value than others. Biscayne Bedding is also not on the membership list of The Mattress Underground. Because local manufacturing is almost always a higher quality and better value source for mattresses … I always list all the local manufacturers I know of that are near someone so they can include them in their research. Some are better than others though so listing them in a post is not to be taken as a recommendation … just a place where the quality and value is likely to be better. I will usually make comments in the post if I have talked with them or know more about them though and there are many manufacturers who are not yet members who I do regard highly.
The only thing I know to do would be to call the manufacturers or other outlets in the area and ask them if they offer a latex mattress with 24 ILD latex in the comfort layers. There is no “better or worse” though … only what works for you. If 19 in the layer combinations you have tried works for PPP … then I’m not sure I would be looking to try every possible option of ILD, material, and layering choices. This could take you months and would likely just create more confusion than it would help you. Once you have found something that works well … then I would consider the job done and then it’s just a matter of deciding if the quality and value justify a purchase.
Thanks for the clarification on everything. When I said I liked the way the 10" Pure Latex Bliss felt, I just meant it has similiar layers to the Nature’s Rest one that I liked. I didn’t even try the 12" the regular way because he had it set up with the 3" topper on it that he said he came up with himself lol. I guess he wanted to show an ultra plush type feel to customers.
Yeah, I had a feeling that review didn’t mean much because most people (unless they visit this site lol or are informed) don’t know what’s in the mattresses like you said, so they are basing the reviews off of other things. And it didn’t even have any written reviews so it seems sketchy anyway. Oh ok, I didn’t mean the membership list but I thought the list of local maufacturers that you give means that you’ve talked to them so thanks for clarifying.
I looked over the list one more time and left out one of the places, so I have an appointment with them on Thursday. It’s a little bit of a drive (west palm) but I figured this way I’d have exhausted all options and can finally make a decision. I didn’t particularly care for the way the woman spoke to me on the phone, as I told her about the Nature’s rest and she said, “why would anyone want that combination?” So then I asked her why she said that and she kind of took it back saying that it depends on preference. I’ve been debating whether to cancel the appointment (based on how the phone call went) and just go with the Nature’s Rest, but I figure one more place can’t hurt.
Thanks again for all your help, I’m looking forward to finally making a decision by the end of the week and getting a great mattress. I will post with what I went with after my appointment with this west palm place.
Thanks,
Beth
Oh one last question before I forget, if I do go with the Nature’s rest, is someone heavier than me(boyfriend,friends,etc) going to have enough support/comfort when sleeping on my bed? Most of the time it’s just me and at this point I only care about what my preferences are, but I’m just curious when I get engaged/married if I’m going to have to get a new mattress if it’s too soft. I hope that won’t be the case as I want the mattress for a long time and even though it certainly won’t affect my purchase now, it just never occured to me until now to at least just mention it.
I understand. The 12" model with the topper on it would be really really soft … way too soft for most people IMO.
My goal is to eventually talk to most of them but there are hundreds across the country so that will take some time to accomplish :). As a group though … I know that they are usually the best source of quality and value so I decided when I started the site to list all that I knew about so that people had better choices. This way too … feedback from people who visited them could also be part of the process of finding out more about them. While they are usually far better choices … there are also some exceptions and not every independent manufacturer is “great” for many reasons. Eventually I think there will be about 50 who are members here who represent what I believe are the best of this group.
I’d probably make the trip to West Palm Beach as well just in case her comment wasn’t representative of their “normal”. You’ve gone this far … you may as well take the last step before deciding :).
That depends of course on how heavy they are, sleeping positions etc but the advantage of latex is that it can accommodate a greater range of weight than other materials because even soft latex gets firmer faster than other foams that have a lower sag factor (don’t get firm as fast when you sink into them more). Since most of the support of a mattress comes from the support layers … then the ILD of these has a lot to do with it as well. If your support layer is “average” (say 32 or higher or better yet 36 or higher), then the odds are pretty good that it will be OK for someone who is heavier than you as well but that depends on the specifics of their needs and preferences as well and exactly how much heavier they are.
Great thanks. The Nature’s rest has a 7" 36 support core so that’s good…
Yeah, I understand that you couldn’t possibly talk to every local manufacturer haha. Feedback from us is definitely helpful. I can say that two of the manufacturers I went to, Custom Comfort Mattresses and Biscayne Bedding were very helpful and friendly. The first one went above and beyond and I’d send anyone to him, but he doesn’t have any softer latex than 32. I’ll report back with my 2 cents about the west palm one as well, just in case anyone in south florida is searching these forums for recommendations.
Thanks again for all your help, I’ll post tomorrow about my final decision
So I went to the west palm manufacturer and she was insistent that I would bottom out of a 19 and something that soft isn’t good for someone with a back problem. So she showed me a bed with a 3" topper of 28 with 6" of 32. That felt ok but I wasnt sure if the 3" was too much so I tried 2" of 24, but she only had a small piece of it so I wasn’t able to get a good feel.
Her prices are a lot more expensive than the other place, so she told me to go back to him and say I want 3" of 24 and 6" of 32. I told her that he said he can take the 1" of 19 off and give me 2" of 24 and 7" of 36, but she said the 36 is going to be too firm. She also said there’s no way that there can be 7" of a latex core, and there has to be polyfoam on the bottom because latex should be 6".
So now I’m even more confused lol. Do you think a 19 is too soft for my bulging disc? And is a 19,24,36 combo not good? I guess I could ask him if he could make 2" or 3" 24 and 6" 32 instead, but now I don’t know who to listen to lol. I was even thinking of just asking him to replace the 1" of 19 with 24, but is 3" of 24 the same thing as 1" and 2" of 24? And now I’m worried that a 36 core would be too firm based on her comments.
One of the most confusing things that I encountered along the journey of researching and learning the information that is on this site through online research, lengthy conversations with many mattress manufacturers and materials experts, and through my own personal testing of materials, was how many conflicting opinions there were … and yet all of them seemed to be “right” in some cases yet not in others. Worse yet … some people with seemingly similar body shapes, needs, and issues seemed to be happy with certain recommendations and others seemed to be happy with completely different recommendations.
The reason for this is that each person can be very different in their sensitivities, their body shape, how they are put together, how they move, how they sleep, and in the natural variations between the skeletal structure, curves, and flexibility of the spine and joints. There is also a wide variety of sensitivity to pressure between different people and what makes one person’s arms fall asleep or tingle will be perfectly fine for someone else with a similar body shape and weight. What this means is that in the end … once you understand the basic ideas of pressure relief (spreading out your weight over the mattress through it’s ability to conform or “cradle” to your shape) and alignment (sleeping in a position where the spine is in your natural alignment) … then you need to trust your own experience even over the conflicting advice of “experts”. Nobody else can feel what you feel when you are lying on a mattress.
People who are taller and slim generally fall into two categories. The first likes to sink in a little more into their mattress and will use softer layers of foam in the comfort layers because they are more sensitive to pressure and they need something that their lighter weight can sink into to a similar depth as a heavier person will sink into a firmer foam. These people would do best with the thinnest possible layer of this softer material that will relieve pressure and will fill in the “gaps” (which are smaller than a curvier person which is why the layer can be thinner) in their sleeping profile. The thicker this comfort layer is … the firmer the layer underneath can be (thicker layers will help isolate you more from the firmness of the support layers). The second group will use firmer material because they prefer sleeping more “on” the mattress and because their “gaps” are less, they sink enough into the firmer material to get adequate pressure relief in spite of their lower weight. This group can sometimes use a little thicker top layer and even a little softer lower layer because the firmness of the top layer will hold them up more. There is no right or wrong here … only what gives you the pressure relief and alignment that you are most comfortable with. Once you know what to test for … the voice of your “gut” and the messages from your own body needs to be the loudest one you hear.
On another forum I used to post at … there is someone who is about 100 lbs and 5 ft and uses an inch of softer latex over a support core with 3 layers of very firm latex (all of it 36 ILD or higher). She is a side sleeper and breaks every one of the rules I just outlined and she is seemingly in a category of her own. she is completely happy with her mattress even though it would be way to firm and not have enough softness on top for most people of her weight and height. If you use a thinner top layer (as in taking off the inch of 19 ILD) … then you may need a little softer support core so the transition between the two won’t be as sudden. With 3" it will probably be fine although only you can say if you can “feel” the firmness of the lower layers. If you have a thicker comfort layer … then you can easily use a firmer support core because the thicker top layer would cushion you from it.
There are some latex cores that are fabricated to be 7" but most are either 5.6" or 6". An inch of polyfoam on the bottom of a latex mattress is also not normally an issue (unless someone doesn’t want it for other reasons such as wanting all natural ingredients because that is important to them) and is often used as a stabilization and protective layer.
So in the end … you need to decide if a mattress gives you the pressure relief you need (especially on your shoulders) regardless of the ILD and also if it keeps you in alignment (lets your back completely relax in its natural alignment in all your sleeping positions). Sometimes when there are just too many competing ideas between different manufacturers or people and it doesn’t seem possible to really know which one is “best” for you … that’s the time I would listen to your own body and let it make the final decisions
Thanks for your input. I know it’s going to come down to what I feel is the best for me, but I just don’t want to be stuck with a mattress that is either not comfortable and/or will cause me pain. So when someone emphatically says, “a 19 is not good for you, you’re going to bottom out and it’s not good for your bulging disc,” it makes me think twice.
I originally thought the 19 was a little too soft, and even though I was concerned I also thought that it might be ok that it’s soft since there’s firmer layers underneath that are supporting my spine/alignment. I’m going to ask the guy at biscayne if he does a comfort exchange and if he does then maybe I’ll go with the 19, 24, 36 and if it’s too soft and I can ask to take the 19 off. But from what you are saying (and kind of what she said) it seems like the 36 is going to be too firm with just the 24 on top. So if I replace the 1" of 19 with an 1" of 24, would the 3" of 24 be enough of a transition to not feel the 36? Or, I can do a 19,24,32 to start with and then take the 19 off if it’s too soft and not be worried that it’s going to be too firm if I take the first layer off. But would the 32 support core support me enough/give me proper alignment?
When you said this:
If you use a thinner top layer (as in taking off the inch of 19 ILD) … then you may need a little softer support core so the transition between the two won’t be as sudden. With 3" it will probably be fine although only you can say if you can “feel” the firmness of the lower layers. If you have a thicker comfort layer … then you can easily use a firmer support core because the thicker top layer would cushion you from it.
I think you were referring to what she suggested which was 3" of 24 and 6’ of 32? Then when you said, “if I have a thicker comfort layer,” were you referring to the inch of 19 on top of the 24&36? The inch of 19 doesn’t “sound” like a thicker top layer, but you were just meaning that I would have more layers to cushion me from the support core or did you mean something even thicker than an inch top layer?
Sorry again, I promise I’m done with my questions now lol :oops: . I’m also just typing out my thoughts. Once I find out if there’s a comfort exchange I’ll just pick one and see how it is, but if there isn’t then I’m going to need to think about it a bit more.
Is there a way I can donate to this site? Not only for putting up with my nonsense, but more importantly for your wealth of information and expertise that I can’t possibly thank you enough for.
One of the things that many people don’t take into account is that layer thickness is just as important as layer firmness in how well a particular layering scheme works for someone. This is why an overly general statement that only talks about layer firmness can never be completely “correct”. For example … 2" or even 3" of 19 ILD latex that “allowed” your shoulders to sink in enough may work very well for someone if it was over a layer that was firm enough to “stop” their hips from sinking in too far and keep you in alignment. On the other hand … 4" or 5" of 19 ILD would also allow their shoulders to sink in far enough but it would probably also allow their hips to sink in too far before they “get to” the firmer layers underneath so the same ILD in this case probably wouldn’t work. So to say that a specific ILD wouldn’t work without also connecting it to layer thickness and the firmness of the layer underneath it is far too general a statement to really be accurate. If you for example were sleeping on 3" of 19 ILD alone on a floor then you would “bottom out” but the fact is that it’s not on the floor … it’s on more latex so there is no way that you would bottom out unless the entire mattress was too thin and soft for you.
It’s also true that if the top layer is very soft and thin … say 2" of 19 ILD over 6" of say 36 ILD … then the thin soft layer may let a typical side sleeper “go through it” so to speak (especially if you had more “bony” hips or shoulders or more of a recessed waist area) and you may feel the firmness of the support layer below it and this may be uncomfortable for some. The top layer in this case may not have enough thickness to “cushion” your pointy parts (hips and shoulders) from the firmness of the support layers. If you were to increase the thickness of the top layer to 3" … then even though the ILD was the same … the increase in thickness could allow enough cushioning to shield your pointy parts from the firmer layers below so you wouldn’t feel the “sudden” transition from soft top to firm below. In both cases you would be using the same ILD … it’s just the layer thickness that would change.
The key is that the top needs to be soft and thick/thin “enough for you” and the support layers need to be firm “enough for you”. The key words here are “enough for you”.
This is from an earlier post which I’m “bumping up” to use as a reference. Height and weight and the back issue would usually lead to an initial general guideline in terms of layering. Once you start testing mattresses though … then it’s important to make adjustments in the layering based on your own experiences and not the initial guideline. For example … if you are testing a mattress with 1" of 19 ILD over 2" of 24 ILD over a core of 36 ILD … this may be perfect for you in terms of pressure relief and alignment or it may not. It would certainly be “in the range”. Any changes from this (or any other possibility) needs to be based on your specific experience and feedback … not the initial guideline. For example, only you can say if the pressure relief on this is OK. You … along with the help of the person beside you would also be in the best position to tell if you were in good alignment in all your sleeping positions. If it worked for both and you liked the overall feel of this mattress … then your body has told you what is best and nobody else should tell you what is “right” or “wrong”. If it didn’t work … then you would need to give specific feedback about what was “wrong” with it in terms of pressure relief or alignment in order for someone else to know what needs to be adjusted and refine the initial guideline. Once you lay on your first mattress … then your specific feedback about pressure relief and alignment is the only way to know a good possibility for the next mattress you lay on. You are the one who gets to say if this layering works and if it doesn’t … the specifics of why not. Your feedback becomes the basis for the next suggestion … not the original guideline from this point onwards.
In the same way … if you lay on 3" of 28 over 6" of 32 … then only you can say if this works for pressure relief, posture and alignment, and feels the way you like. If it works on all counts, then it would become a possibility. If it doesn’t … then your specific feedback about pressure relief or alignment needs to be the guideline which points to the next possibility and helping to narrow down the range of what will work for you. Without your specific feedback on each mattress … that says “I feel too much pressure here” … or “it feels like this part is sinking in too far” … or “I feel tension or pain in this part of my back when I’m in “this” position” … then there is no way to really know what to adjust and where to go next. Don’t forget … the mattress needs to fit YOU … not somebody’s theory, guideline, or belief. Theory is great for a starting point … and it can also take your specific experience and feedback on a particular mattress and “suggest” the next possibility. It can’t ever decide what is “best”. In the end … you have to make the final decision based on your own personal experiences on the mattress. There is no such thing as too thick … too thin … too soft … or too firm … if your own personal experience says that you have the pressure relief and alignment that is ideal for you in all your sleeping positions and you are comfortable with the overall feel and microclimate of the mattress.
So what I need to know to make any suggestions is the specifics of what you felt on the 3" of 28 over 6" of 32. This needs to include comments about pressure relief and alignment. “It felt OK” is not specific enough to know what if anything may need to be adjusted. In the same way … your specific comments about what you feel in terms of pressure relief and alignment on the other mattress (1" of 19 over 2" of 24 over the 36 ILD base) is essential before any comments about what if anything to change would have any validity. This leads to knowing the “range” of what works for you … which is always a range rather than a very specific set of numbers. You want to end up with a mattress that is close to the “middle” of the range of what is “best” for you so that the day to day changes in what you feel each night are also inside the “range” of the mattress you choose.
In most cases … local manufacturers will have a certain time where they can make an adjustment in your mattress for a nominal charge if your longer term experience after purchase it tells you that something needs to be adjusted and asking about this is also important both to “fine tune” anything that may need it over the longer term and for your peace of mind.
I would focus on and think in terms of describing what you feel on each mattress in the specific terms of pressure relief and alignment and preferences for each mattress that you lay on (for at least 15 minutes) rather than terms like “too thick or thin” or “too firm or soft”.
Thanks for your comments. What you said makes a lot more sense. When lying on the mattresses I was describing how it felt in terms of pressure relief and stuff, but I know I already go into way too much detail here so I try to be as short and precise as possible so I don’t take up even more of your time lol. Anyway, with the mattresses I didn’t like I could tell right away or after a few minutes that it’s not good because the lower back pain is either worse or still there, so I eliminate it right away. But with the ones that I liked, I said that they were “ok” because I didn’t completely love it, but it wasn’t hurting my back, but then my back hurt later on so I wasn’t sure if it was trying a bunch of mattresses or what.
So with the 1"19, 2"24, 7"36- when I first layed on it before the guy got there, I layed on it for a minute and originally thought it was too hard or didn’t feel “cushy” enough to me. But then when he got there and told me the layering I tried it again and felt differently lol. He left me alone and I layed on it for longer, he said that I was completely straight and that my shoulders and hips sank in just a bit, which was a good sign. So it wasn’t hurting my back or causing discomfort, but I was worried that it wouldn’t be supportive enough because it felt “soft”, like I was sinking in a bit too much or that it wasn’t holding me up enough. But he told me that I was straight and wasn’t sinking in too far. I had also just gone from testing a 32/40 combo at the other manufacturer to a way different feel on 19. So of course I liked it better. But then I thought let me just try a 24 because maybe it would be a “cushy” feel too but feel a bit more supportive. But like I wrote earlier, he brought out 2" of 24 and put it on top of a bed with 19 top layer so I couldn’t tell how it felt.
With the 3" of 24 and 6" of 32, she said I completely relaxed on that one and was straight too with the same shoulders and hip sink just a bit. The thing with that was it was a 3" topper on top of the 32, so that was a different feeling than what I tried with the other mattress that was already put together. She said that she would leave it like that and not sow it into the mattress because I wouldn’t get the plush feel if it was all put together. But, I didn’t really like the way the topper felt because it felt almost too plush. It wasn’t hurting my back but I didn’t like the feeling of being that in the mattress. So maybe if it wasn’t a topper and everything was sown together I would’ve liked it better or at least got a different feel of it.
Were any of those descriptions better? I’m not sure if I said anything differently lol. Let me know and I’ll try to explain it in more detail. Overall, without really getting a good feel of the 24, I’d say there was nothing really wrong with the nature’s rest one. I liked that it “felt” soft, I just wasnt sure if I get it home that I’d wake up with back pain because it wasn’t supportive enough. I guess I’m equating soft with not being supportive even though it can be.
Also, I saw in a post here a link for the custom mattress design website and I gave my measurements and spoke to him on the phone and he gave me pdf of what my “body profile” is. It’s similar to the nature’s rest. I’m attaching it in case you’re interested in seeing it.
As you mention … testing different mattresses one after the other can affect how each feels but based on your comments … this layering seemed to work well. It appears that the upper layers provided good pressure relief for both your shoulders and hips and the firmer 36 underneath would be good for alignment. It’s unlikely that with 3" of softer latex on top (and 1" of 19 over 2" of 24 isn’t even as soft as many people of your height and weight would choose) it is easily enough to isolate you from the firmness of the support layer. The inch of 19 ILD would give you a little bit more “cush” on top but would not be significantly different from 3" of 24. Your initial impression of this was also good when you said …
This tells me that it felt a little better than “OK” and as I mentioned the 1" of 19 ILD is not significant in terms of alignment.
This comfort layer is almost identical with the first one (the single inch of 19 wouldn’t make a significant difference) but as you mentioned and felt … a loose comfort layer feels softer than one that is built into the mattress. This is because the edges “pull in” more than with a comfort layer that is part of the mattress. This is the same reason that pillowtops feel softer than a similar mattress would feel with the same components but didn’t have the separate pillowtop. the support layer on this one is slightly softer at 32 ILD vs 36 ILD and while the difference here is not that significant either … the first one would have a little better support. I have no idea why she believed that with a 3" comfort layer that 36 would be too firm and I think that your own experience confirmed that it wasn’t. The idea that you would somehow “bottom out” with a single inch of 19 ILD in place of an inch of 24 ILD in a 3" comfort layer is also really strange.
Since it seems that these are very similar mattresses and that your alignment and pressure relief was fine on both … plus the fact that this one seemed to be significantly more would make my choice between these two very clear.
If anything … the Natures Rest would be more supportive because most of the support comes from the deeper layers of the mattress and the difference in the comfort layers between these two is minimal at best. Softness and thickness in the upper layers is more about pressure relief and only has a secondary effect on support. It’s when the support layers are too soft (or the comfort layers are too thick and soft) that alignment can be much more affected.
While the CSD does use some “areas” of similar ILD as the other two … this would be a very different mattress than either of them. Layer thickness and zoning makes a significant difference in both pressure relief and alignment and since this is “customized” for your specific body shape and measurements and because it has a very different layering scheme from either of the other two (and can be adjusted after you’ve slept on it if necessary) … this would be a much different mattress. While the differences may not be so important if you are happy with one or both of the other two … it would be like the difference between custom fitted pair of shoes or an outfit that fit you perfectly down to the finest detail and an off the shelf pair of shoes or outfit that worked well but wasn’t “perfect” in every way. Whether the difference in price is worth it is of course part of what each person has to decide for themselves based on their own personal “value equation” and their budget.
So it seems to me that the Nature’s Rest has the best local value and based on your comments also seems to be good for pressure relief and alignment and also appears to be your preference in terms of how it feels.
Based on this … I would think that the only thing left to choose is whether the CSD should be in the running and/or is “worth” the greater price to you and of course part of this would be based on exactly how good you feel about your local choices.
Thanks for your input. The CSD is too expensive but using that as a comparison, the ILDs are somewhat similar to the Nature’s Rest one so at least I’m in the range like you said. The only thing is the pdf has 2" of 19, but if I add that extra inch I think it might be too plush for me. When you wrote that the 19 & 24 isn’t even as soft as other people like me would pick, just curious as to what others have picked? Not that I’m going to change my mind, was just curious.
I’m going back on Wed to test it out one more time and buy it, but the receptionist wasn’t able to tell me what the exchange policy was so I have to find that out. She said something about after a year I can get a refund of 90% and then two years 80%, but I have to talk to him.
My other question is, overtime are the comfort layers going to give/wear out to where I would only feel the firm support core or if it would feel firmer overtime? I’m assuming it won’t but just making sure.
I know how tempting it is to make comparisons based on ILD alone but layer thickness really does make just as big a difference as ILD. for example … your “softer” CSD version has 14 under the shoulders for the first 2" and then 3" of 24 ILD under that so the top 3" would “average” out (although this is somewhat misleading) to about 17. The “firmer” CSD version would average out to about 21. With an inch of 19 and 2" of 24 it’s about 22. With the 3" of 24 it’s 24.
Under the hips … the CSD soft" averages out to about 22 while the firmer version averages out to about 29.
So while the “shoulder” section of the CSD averages out (and again this is misleading) to a fair bit softer or a little softer than the “unilayers” in both versions … the hip section is either the same (with much softer under the shoulders) or significantly firmer (with about the same under the shoulders).
Generally a difference of less than 3-4 ILD is not that noticeable. In addition to this … the thickness of each layer and the thickness of the mattress itself (thicker is softer) makes a difference so the temptation to make comparisons with different different thicknesses or even between mattresses where the mattresses are different thicknesses can be misleading.
It’s not uncommon at all for people to choose 3" of 19 ILD when their weight is lighter and in some cases even lower. Some people find even 24 ILD is too firm. Having said that … people who are heavier may find 24 is too soft and prefer 28 or even higher in the top layers. It really depends on the person, their weight, and on how much they like to sink into their mattress. In general though … 19 - 24 is about the “average” that most people seem to typically prefer. In my own case (195 lbs and 6’5") and with my personal preferences … 24 is “right on the edge” of feeling too firm although I prefer a softer feeling mattress and my weight is well distributed.
This almost sounds more like the policy for a whole mattress rather than an adjustment so I would definitely ask about any costs involved in changing out a layer or making a comfort adjustment if you need it.
Latex is the most durable of all foams so you can safely purchase it based on how you want it to feel and it will stay that way with very gradual softening over a much longer period of time than polyfoam or memory foam which go through an initial softening period over the first few weeks. With latex … the feel will stay consistent over the long term with only very gradual softening. The ticking may stretch or loosen a bit initially though (depending on what it is made of and how it’s made) so this could make a bit of a difference in the first few weeks.
So if the CSD version is 22/29 in the hips, then what does the natures rest version equal out to be?
If the natures rest in the shoulders averages out to be a 22, maybe that’s why I don’t feel like its too soft since the 19 isn’t thick enough to be a true 19. At least I think that’s what you’re getting at.
3" of 19 is common for lighter people? Is that just the top layer? What about the rest of the layers? I think I prefer thinner layers but I also didn’t try 2" of 19 so maybe I would like that too. I can already tell that 3" of anything in the top layer would make me feel too much into the mattress and I don’t think my back likes that feeling.
I remember you wrote something about preferences of people who are “bony” but I can’t remember what you said. My Internet went out and I’m on my phone so I can’t check. Anyway, I am bony on my hips and shoulders, so I’m not sure how that would affect anything. I hope that with the natures rest there’s enough cushion to where I won’t feel the support core. Like I said before, my back didn’t hurt but obviously that wasn’t long enough to tell for sure.
My sense of things is that you are perhaps paying too much attention to the specs of the mattress and not quite enough to your own experiences in lying on a mattress.
In general there are two sets of specs that are important.
The first set of specs is the ones that tell you about the quality of the materials used in a mattress. This will tell you about how long the mattress will last and keep the ability to relieve pressure, provide good alignment, and provide the preferences you like over time. In your case … all the materials that are used in the mattresses you are testing are high quality and durable.
The second set of specs is the ones that are about ILD (softness firmness) and layering that are all about providing PPP. These are only helpful for two reasons.
The first reason they can be helpful is to give you a good starting point for testing mattresses so that you don’t spend a lot of time testing mattresses that aren’t suitable for you. You have already narrowed down your choices to the range of ILD and layering that is suitable. From this point on … if you are using quality materials … then the starting point needs to be replaced with your own testing experiences and the specs need to be forgotten. It doesn’t matter what the ILD’s or layer thickness is if the materials have high quality/durability if they provide good pressure relief, alignment, and fit your preferences.
The second reason they can be helpful is if the mattresses you are testing don’t “fit” your needs and preferences because they can be used to give an indication of what can be changed and the direction of the change that may lead to better pressure relief, posture and alignment, and preferences. For example … if a specific mattress uses a certain ILD or layering and it isn’t working for you in one or more areas … then knowing the “specs” of the ILD and layering can help to decide on the next mattress that is worth testing.
The quality specs are important to measure value and durability.
The specs that lead to PPP are only important to provide a starting point and to help with the direction of any changes that may be necessary to improve PPP. If your PPP is good … then these specs become meaningless. they have nothing to do with the quality of a mattress and your own experiences in testing are far more important than the PPP “specs” in determining how suitable any mattress may be for you.
So if the mattresses you have tried are providing good Pressure relief for your shoulders and hips, Posture and alignment in all your sleeping positions, and provide the preferences you like … then ILD and layer thickness is completely unimportant if the mattresses you are testing are using high quality materials (which they are).
My understanding is that the Nature’s rest provides all of these. Is this correct? If this is correct and there are no pressure issues, alignment issues, or preference issues … and if it is within your budget and the value is better than other available choices that also provide good PPP, then you have found your mattress. If there is an “issue” of some kind with the Nature’s rest (that isn’t based on the specs or theory but on your actual PPP experience) only then would the specs be useful to know to help decide on what the next possibility for testing might be to “correct” any pressure issues, alignment issues, or preference issues.
I am paying attention to my own experience laying on mattresses, rather than specs. Because I haven’t layed on anything where the PPP is perfect or pretty close, I’m taking what I thought was ok(soft,not hurting my back,etc) and trying to modify a bit so I can meet the needs of my PPP better. What I experienced at the first manufacturer was completely different to the nature’s rest, but I only tried one mattress that was already made up, not different combinations to possibly modify the feel of the comfort layers, etc. So while the one I tried out felt good enough, if there’s something that is better for me, I wanted to try it before making a large purchase and possibly not being able to exchange if there’s a problem.
The issue with the nature’s rest is that after I left my back still hurt. I know I can’t make a decision based on that, but it’s still a bit concerning when the only reason I am doing this in the first place is to help alleviate my back pain. The reason why I love my cousin’s mattress is because after laying on it for even 5-10 mins makes a significant difference in my back pain. So like you said I know the high quality materials are there, but I’m not 100% sure the pressure relief is there and that’s why I’m hesistant. I’m guessing I just have to bite the bullet and try it but it’s still a nerve wracking decision. I’m scared that when I buy it tomorrow and get it and sleep on it, I’m going to be in the worst pain or I’m going to hate it (after the adjustment period) and wish I had my old mattress back. I’m sure that’s not going to happen and I’ll probably love it, but I’m sure you understand the freaking out part lol.
OK … I understand … I thought your experience on the Nature’s rest was better than it appears to be.
Your back pain could have been from some of the wide variety of mattresses you have been trying and my sense was that you were trying to match a set of “perfect” specs rather than “perfect” PPP. When you mentioned it before … it was after your initial testing on a lot of different combinations before you had tested the nature’s rest and you hadn’t mentioned it since.
I went through this whole thread and I’ll outline some of my thinking in the hopes you may get a sense of some of the “patterns” I’m seeing that seem to point to your most logical layering. I’ll also ask a few questions along the way in the hopes that they may clarify why you think the Nature’s Rest may not be quite right for you.
When you lay on the Nature’s rest … did you experience any back pain while you were on it or was it only after a day of testing different mattresses? Was this the same type of back pain you mentioned before you tested the Nature’s rest and you had tried a bunch of different mattresses at the first place you went to? (you mentioned back pain in post # 9 and #15 before you found the nature’s rest). At this point you had been testing different mattresses with memory foam, latex, and polyfoam so I attributed the back pain to this. I didn’t realize it had also happened later on.
It appears from your feedback that you were in alignment on both of your 2 main candidates (Nature’s Rest and West Palm Beach) which isn’t surprising because both the 32 ILD and the 36 ILD would be firm enough to give you good support and the comfort layers are almost identical.
Your first comment about the nature’s rest was in post #19 here and it seemed to be exactly what you were looking for. The softness/pressure relief of memory foam with the support of the firmer latex underneath it.
Also in post #19 … you mentioned trying 2" of 19 over 32 Dunlop (which would be similar to the firmer Talalay) and it appeared you didn’t like this … probably because 2" is too thin and would create pressure issues. This leads me to think that 3" of 19 - 24 ILD would be better (and both of your main options are in the 24 range rather than the 19).
You also seemed to like the PLB romance which had 2" of 19 ILD but that was over a little firmer “medium” or 28 ILD middle layer. Your comments seemed to indicate that this was also OK but not as much as the Nature’s rest (although you could clarify if this is not the case). This would also be very similar to the other two (Nature’s Rest and West Palm Beach) in terms of the average of the top 3" of pressure relief and in the support core as well although the PLB would “start off” softer and get firmer a little faster than the Nature’s rest. That 3 different mattresses with similar comfort and support layers (including the PLB) seemed to be OK and give you good pressure relief and support seemed to point to that this was a pretty good construction for you.
When you went to West Palm beach to test the last mattress you tried (post #27) … you tried 3" of 28 over 6" of 32 and you mentioned that you thought this was too much (thickness or firmness?) and wanted to try 2" of 24 (which would be firmer than 3" of 28) but didn’t mention any symptoms of why it may be too much or whether you meant thickness or firmness. This was the same thickness as the two you liked except much firmer in the comfort layer so I was assuming it was probably too firm rather than too thick. You asked me then if I thought 19 was too soft for your bulging disc (I had already mentioned that 19 was closer to a more “typical” comfort layer for you and you have really only tried comfort layers in the range of 24 anyway) so this too seemed to indicate that you were starting to focus more on “theory” and on specs than on your testing experience. (I didn’t know that you are still experiencing back pain). I assumed you were asking about the Nature’s rest which has an inch of 19 in it but this is insignificant and it is more like a 24. In a comfort layer … 24 would be a little on the firm side for many people of your height and weight but because you are slimmer and straighter … it seemed to work well for you (on 3 different mattresses).
This was re-inforced in post # 29 when you mentioned …
because this seemed to also be based on theory and you didn’t mention though what symptoms you were feeling that made you think it may have been too soft. Again … don’t forget that the comfort layer is more like a 24 not 19.
In post #31 … you mention this …
This is different from your original description of the mattress which was more like a WOW … but even here it seems like the comfort layer was good (no pressure points) and that the firmness also seemed to be OK for your back. You did mention as I mentioned that you were “worried” that it was too soft but I didn’t see any “symptoms” to indicate why as it appeared that you were in alignment and that the softness you were feeling was coming from the top layers which is necessary for pressure relief. You also mentioned that this was after testing a mattress that was almost certainly way too firm (32 over 40) so it would likely be safe to assume that the subjective feeling of being too soft was just a result of that.
If you really do think that this may be too soft though (and this needs to be you telling me rather than the other way around) … could you let me know which sleeping position it felt this way. Can you describe why you feel that it may be too soft? This might help me understand what you are referring to. “Soft” by itself without knowing if you mean pressure relief or support or the area it may be too soft is not really specific enough for me to know what you mean.
Later in that same post … was when you mentioned you tried 3" of 24 over a 6" 32 core (which would be the same effective comfort layer but a softer support layer) and this too seemed to work well so it seems to re-inforce that 3" is the right thickness and 24 (which they both basically have) seems to be a good comfort ILD. Because both mattresses seemed to provide good alignment … I would choose the one with the firmer support layer (the Nature’s Rest) because it may provide slightly better support.
This was also where you mentioned the CSD design and when you later started comparing it to what you had tried … IMO this was doing more to confuse the issue and focus on the specs of a mattress you hadn’t tried than help.
As I mentioned … the CSD design is far more complex and I wouldn’t consider it as something comparable with the one’s you’ve tried or that helpful in telling how suitable the ones you have tried may be … partly because you haven’t laid on it, partly because the combination of layer thicknesses and ILD’s are more different than similar … and partly because it is zoned which is a different type of construction. It is based on a completely different design theory. It also has a firmer 5" overlap where the firmer part of the top layer overlaps the softer lower layer which would increase support in the small of your back. Overall … trying to compare this type of construction without actually lying on it will do much more to complicate things than clarify it.
You also mentioned in post #35 …
Which also seemed to re-inforce the idea that the feeling that it might be too soft was momentary and a result of other things.
All of this together seems to me to point to a comfort layer of 3" in the range of 24 (which both of them as well as the PLB you tried are very close to) as being good for you and that either a support core of 32 or 36 both seem to work well in which case I would choose the firmer one because the thicker 3" comfort layer sees to isolate you well enough from it’s firmness. This didn’t take into account any back issues you have had since trying these however since I thought that was from early on.
So to clarify anything I’ve missed … it may help to see how you would answer these questions.
Does the Nature’s rest provide good pressure relief in your shoulders when you are lying on your side completely relaxed.
Does it provide good pressure relief for your hips when you are lying on your side completely relaxed?
Does it provide good support on your back (no strain or pain when you are completely relaxed)?
Does it also seem to provide good support on your side (again no strain or pain when you are completely relaxed)?
If there are any “no’s” … can you tell me exactly which one is a no and where you are feeling any symptoms and what they are?
Can you connect any back pain you are feeling to a mattress or is it something that you feel when you are more active or your back is stressed overall?
If you have back pain and then you lay on your cousin’s mattress … does the pain go away every time? Does it come back when you are off it for a while?
Have you tried any of your current choices when you had back pain before you walked into the store. What happens to your back pain when you lay on the mattress? How long does it it take to come back?
Maybe all of this can help to clarify exactly what if anything may need adjusting.
I hope this hasn’t been too “pointed” but I’m having trouble understanding exactly what it is that is making you think that the Nature’s Rest isn’t quite right for you when everything I have read seems to point in that direction.
I would also ask them exactly what your options are if you try the mattress for 30 days or so and you feel it needs some type of change after the normal adjustment period. This way you may feel better about your choices and taking the “risk” that involves any new mattress purchase. This way you can at least have the peace of mind of knowing what your options are if you do sleep on it for a while and something shows up that you couldn’t have known beforehand.
Wow, thanks for going into detail like that. You didn’t have to do that for me. You couldve just told me that I’m crazy and to go buy the bed and I wouldve been fine with that too haha.
First, about my back pain- the reason I started this whole mattress journey was because I was waking up everyday with constant back pain when usually it’s not really everyday or if it is, exercises, heat, advil, etc will help. I mean there’s always some kind of pain there but it hasn’t been this bad since I first injured it a few years ago. So when I went to the first manufacturer my back was worse and then I went to biscayne(nature’s rest) 5 days later, and I had taken one of my two toppers off my bed and that helped too, so my back pain was already less when I tested the nature’s rest. But yes I agree with you that the back pain before was from trying out a bunch of different combinations, but it was also on top of the back pain I already had. So when laying on the nature’s rest, it didn’t add to the back pain but it didn’t take it away either.
Oh and I just wanted to mention that the west palm isn’t a candidate. It’s more expensive and she even told me to go back to biscayne because it’s cheaper. So my only option is the nature’s rest, unless I ask to see a different combination.
With the PLB, it’s not that I liked the nature’s rest better, I think it felt kind of the same. I didn’t spend enough time laying on it to really get a good feel and I felt uncomfortable staying there for a long time because the salesman knew I wasnt buying anything and was annoyed that I “knew” more than him lol. I think it did feel a little softer and then firmer than the nature’s rest but I didn’t lay on it long enough to say which I preferred. It actually felt kind of similar to the icomfort though I don’t know why.
At west palm, I meant too much thickness. I tried 3" of 24 over 6" of 32. Did I write 3" of 28? That was a mistake then. I didn’t like the thickness of it because I felt like I was sinking in too much but I don’t know if that was because it’s a topper or what. Laying on it after I while I felt discomfort. Not really pain necessarily but my back did hurt after and I didn’t feel like it was holding me up enough. That’s why I asked if maybe 2" might be better and then maybe I wouldnt be sinking in as much.
I orginally thought the nature’s rest might be too soft because when laying on my side I was sinking in a bit. I know that it’s normal, but I thought that it would eventually cause me pain or not be supportive enough if it was soft. I was equating that with how memory foam sinks in and how that caused me pain and thinking that softness=not supportive but now I know that’s not true.
Yeah I agree, I’m not considering the CSD. That just confused me even more.
To answer the other questions:
Does the nature’s rest provide good pressure relief in my shoulders? I didn’t even test for this. My neck is messed up anyway and this whole time I’ve just been focused on making sure my back feels good which is what is most important to me. I can test that out tomorrow.
Is there good pressure relief for my hips when laying on my hips/side? I don’t know. That’s the problem. I can say that it doesn’t add to the pain or cause extra pain.
Is there good support on my back? Same answer. When I eliminated other mattresses it was because when laying on my back it hurt right away. With this it didnt, but the pain didn’t completely go away either.
Yes, I can connect back pain to when I sleep on my mattress, other mattresses, etc. If it’s hard or uncomfortable I can tell right away and won’t be able to sleep and it’ll hurt even worse in the morning. I’ll also feel pain when I’m more active, poor shoe support, etc. I can tell the difference in my back pain and which thing causes it if that makes any sense.
Yes, when laying on my cousin’s mattress the pain goes away every time. It’s crazy. She lives in ny, so when I go to visit her my back pain is gone the whole time I’m there. If I’m walking a lot, which is different than what I’m used to living in florida, the pain will come back but nowhere near as bad, and if I lay down for a few minutes after that I’m fine.
I already answered this question at the top but I’ll just add to it. Yes, I had back pain before I walked into the stores. With the mattresses that I eliminated the back pain would get worse immediately.
I hope I answered all of your questions. Now that I’ve read your comments I’m starting to think maybe I was confused and what I thought was too soft maybe wasnt soft enough? But I don’t think that’s right because the PLB has 2" of 19 but also got firmer faster. So maybe not. I don’t know, I’m even more confused now lol.
Thanks again for your help. I really do appreciate it.
I think the picture is starting to get a little clearer … at least for me
Sometimes it’s difficult to connect all the dots with the limitations of words on a forum trying to express a much bigger picture. It’s a little like looking at a few parts of a painting and not knowing exactly what the missing parts are and what the whole painting looks like when everything is connected.
If you were a pure back sleeper … I would definitely be suggesting you consider only 2" of latex in the comfort layer to keep you closer to the support layers and better alignment but being a combination sleeper … that would carry the risk that it wouldn’t be thick enough to relieve pressure on your hips and especially your shoulders when you were on your side. It could also result in your hips sinking in far enough but your shoulders being “held up” too high which could also lead to twisting and misalignment of the spine. If a mattress is too firm on top … then it’s common to twist the body to compensate and twisting of the spine is also a form of misalignment which can lead to pain.
Having said all that … it’s clear to me that your alignment is a primary issue with your back and this would be especially important when sleeping on your back. If you were to go with a 2" comfort layer … then if it wasn’t thick/soft enough you would still have the option of adding a thin topper to add some pressure relief as needed.
My “gut” still says that the way it is has the best odds of working well with the 3" comfort layer (1’ 19 and 2" 24) over the extra firm support layer but if you are concerned and your testing gives you reason to suspect that this really is too thick and your pelvis is sinking down too far on your back, then the thinner layer is an option that could be adjusted after you have tried it for a while.
I’d sure like to know the construction of your cousin’s mattress … it would make a good model of something that you know works well! Maybe she can find out the model and let you know (it should be on the law tag).
