Searching for a mattress...take 4

Hi benjammin,

I should have mentioned too that latex is more breathable than most memory foams and the latex would reduce the sleeping warm that some people experience when sleeping directly on thicker layers of memory foam. Latex compresses in a more “valley like” shape while memory foam tends to compress in a more “canyon” like shape that rises up beside the body more so because it is also more insulating and less breathable in its cell structure than latex, it can sleep warmer.

Phoenix

Thanks for the follow up Phoenix. It sounds like you actually spoke to the guy at Houston Mattress Factory about the mattress I described, which is great.

Considering your (supposed) discussions with him and what I have described about our situation, I have a few follow-up questions:

  • Do you think this mattress would be a good fit for our situation? Would you change/tweak anything?
  • Do you think this is a high quality mattress and that we would be getting a good value by buying from them, even if it required swapping it out once or twice to get it to work well for us?
  • How would you compare this in terms of fit/value with the Angelbeds we looked at?

Thanks!
adam

Hi adamseals,

I did talk with him yes but not as much about the mattress you described (which was clearly high quality based on your description) but more about the types of mattresses he is building and about his overall approach, thoughts, and ideas. It was a great conversation and like many manufacturers that have been in business for a long time … he had lots of stories about the industry and also shared many of his thoughts about mattresses and materials in general. I hadn’t talked with him before and didn’t know he was using latex or any of the details about the types of mattresses he was building so based on your description and because I hadn’t talked with him before … I thought I would call him to find out more. I’m glad I did because he is building a much wider variety of mattresses than his website indicates and the conversation confirmed my impressions about his overall approach, quality, and value.

I think that once you have reached the stage of research that you have … your own personal testing and the guidance of someone that is skilled in fitting their customers to a mattress is much more accurate than any “theory at a distance” that I could offer. Specs are a good starting point for testing and can certainly give a good indication of the quality of a mattress and help to exclude many choices and they are also great in terms of knowing the quality and relative durability of a mattress you are seriously considering but the part in between … actually fitting a mattress to a person … is better done locally and in person when there is a local manufacturer or sleep shop with the quality, value, and knowledge that justifies a purchase close by. As a good alternative … a good online manufacturer with the specialized skills to fit their customers at a distance to the specific mattresses and layering that they make is the next best alternative.

To give suggestions about “tweaking” a mattress … I would need a reference point of knowing exactly what you were trying to achieve after testing a specific mattress (and why you wanted to tweak it) and the manufacturers themselves who can get “real time” feedback while you are there and can actually see how you respond to the mattress is usually a much more accurate assessment than what I could do at a distance.

The quality and value is certainly there and the knowledge is also there to give you good guidance but the actual decision about what is best beyond initial guidelines (such as for weight and height here and for sleeping positions here) is better when it’s based on actual testing rather than theory (which has too many variables to accurately predict what any one person may find “best”).

Yes … I would consider them to be a high quality/value manufacturer and wouldn’t hesitate to buy any of their mattresses that “fit” my budget and also my own needs and preferences. Most manufacturers have similar quality and value all across their model lineup (relative to budget of course). I would suggest too that the “best” way to buy a mattress is with the approach that whatever you buy will be your final choice but of course in this case (like with many local manufacturers) if it needs tweaking then the option is there. This is not the ideal though and it’s always better to be accurate the first time and a knowledgeable manufacturer or person that is helping you makes this much more likely.

In terms of “fit” … this would be based on how your personal testing showed you interacted with each mattress. They are two completely different types of outlets however. Houston mattress is an actual manufacturer which has been making mattresses for a long time and has the knowledge and experience that comes with actually making mattresses. They know the “details” that a marketing person would likely never have to learn. Local factory direct manufacturers like this (and sleep shops with knowledgeable people and who deal directly with a factory) tend to have better value than most other options. Angelbeds is a marketing company which also has better than average value but are not the actual manufacturers. They have quite a few websites and focus mostly on online purchases. They all lead back to http://www.merrick-group.com/ . This is not a knock on any marketing group … and Angelbeds is certainly better value than many other options … but simply a recognition that a local manufacturer which tends to run on lower margins and has decades or in some cases generations of experience in the industry has better odds of having better knowledge, quality, and value.

So overall … assuming that they carried a mattress that fit my needs and preferences (and it’s unlikely they don’t considering they can make pretty much anything) … my personal choice between the two would tend towards Houston mattress both because they have great value and because they would have the knowledge and experience to help you select the best choice for your own personal needs and preferences.

Phoenix

Here is our latest update in the mattress seach. Saturday we visited Texas Mattress Makers and then made a return trip to the Houston Mattress Factory.

STOP 1: TEXAS MATTRESS MAKERS

Texas Mattress Makers had a much nicer showroom than the Houston Mattress Factory, which my wife certainly appreciated. We layed on a few different mattresses, starting with the memory foam and then also trying some inner-spring that the sales rep encouraged us to consider. He was nice and somewhat helpful, but I didn’t feel like he was a mattress guru by any means. Before we left, he introduced us to the owner (can’t remember how to pronounce his name). He certainly seemed knowledgeable and confident of his product, but he was adament that inner-springs were a superior alternative to memory foam. I asked him why he made a memory foam mattress if the inner-springs were so much better, and he said it was really just because so many people wanted the memory foam. He also insisted that thinking/researching too much was counter-productive and we just needed to focus on what felt best to us. I do think there is a take-away on that point for me, but I obviously don’t agree entirely.

Maybe it’s because I had focused so much on memory foam, but I had certainly not thought of inner-springs as a superior option. You don’t agree with this statement in general, do you? Perhaps the inner-spring beds they make are great quality and their memory foams are not as good, but I would be surprised if this principle (that inner-spring is superior to memory foam) was true in general.

The bed they recommended was the Bel Air Gel Euro Top. It is supposedly constructed of 1" 3# gel, a pocketed coil topper, and high performance foam. I didn’t get any further information than that, but I was hoping you might have more information. My wife and I did find the bed to be somewhat comfortable, and the price was great (~$1300), but I would certainly need to feel confident that this was a good quality bed and that there wasn’t anything I was overlooking. Regardless, I will still have reservations about buying from them because all sales are final (no return, exchange, or altering available).

STOP 2: HOUSTON MATTRESS FACTORY

We actually had to cut out from there earlier than we would have liked to make it over to the Houston Mattress Factory again. This time we brought our own blanket (to lay on top of the plastic) and pillows so we could better evaluate the mattress we were looking at. As noted above, this bed was constructed of 1" of 2# visco memory foam on top of 2" latex ILD 24-28, then 2" of 5# visco. The base layer is 4" trizoned latex (lighter at head and foot). We found out the price was a bit higher than we had thought, just under $2500 for a king.

After laying on it for quite awhile, I actually was concerned it was a bit too firm for our liking. I was able to get comfortable on my back (which, by the way, I have been sleeping on more recently). On my stomach it wasn’t bad either. However, on my side, it just felt a bit too firm and I could never get comfortable. My wife agreed that it was a bit firmer than she would prefer.

Mike provided a yard-stick for us to check our alignment, but I must confess I really struggled to tell whether my wife was in alignment, and I don’t think she was too sure of what to think about me either. Mike didn’t exactly provide an assessment for us either.

I shared our concern with Mike (the owner) that the bed might be a bit too firm for us, and he suggested that we just increase the top layer of 2# visco from 1" to 2". He was hesitant to adjust the ILD of the latex or any other layers. This seems like it would probably be a good option, but I am a bit concerned about the impact of the top layer breaking down over time if it were 2" thick. Wouldn’t this breaking down of such a soft top layer have more of a negative impact on the bed if it were 2" thick? Might we consider switching to a denser top layer (maybe 3# or 4# if we increase it to 2"?

DECISION TIME???

We were really hoping we would like the bed at the Houston Mattress Factory as-is, but I really just feel like it’s a bit too firm for us. Perhaps we should go with it and account for the fact that it should soften over time, but I would hate to have to bring it back for softening a few months from now when we have already identified it as a potential concern. Or, perhaps we should alter it in advance to make it a bit softer by increasing the thickness of the top layer, but I would hate to ask them to make a special mattress for us to purchase when I had never actually laid on it.

Any advice? Should we seriously consider the inner-spring bed from Texas Mattress Makers? Should we go with a thicker 2" foam on top of the bed at Houston Mattress Factory, or might that cause problems? Should we go with the bed as is from Houston Mattress Factory knowing that it will soften over time?

Thanks again for all of your help Phoenix. We are really hoping to draw this process to an end soon!

Hi adamseals,

You are bringing up some good points so this will be a “longer” reply :slight_smile:

STOP 1: TEXAS MATTRESS MAKERS

There are many manufacturers across the country that try their best to have as little to do with memory foam as possible. Some of them carry it only because consumers have a strong “marketing created” belief that it is a superior material and some don’t carry it at all. Of course there are also many who feel differently about it but it would be fair to say that memory foam mattresses in general are not as well liked by long term manufacturers as much as other alternatives because they take the “rap” when they have problems and they tend not to like making mattresses where the returns or problems are more than they want to deal with.

I also lean in this direction personally although not as far as many of the manufacturers. It certainly is a “tricky” material and has many problems connected to it that other materials don’t have. If I were to choose memory foam in a mattress it would be in layers as thin as possible and/or mixed with other materials such as latex to “modify” the feel and performance.

An innerspring is a support component and not so much a “type” of mattress itself. In the same way … memory foam is a comfort material and not so much a type of mattress either. They are just materials that can be used under (in the case of innersprings) or over (in the case of memory foam) other materials. Common useage though has led to people calling any mattress that has a few inches of memory foam over a polyfoam support core or even other support systems a “memory foam mattress” and any mattress that has an innerspring as a support system an “innerspring mattress” even though it can use any materials on top.

Because memory foam is only used in top layers and an innerspring is only used in bottom layers (except for the mini springs called microcoils which are used as part of a comfort layer) … they really can’t be compared as a type of mattress and there would never be a choice between them. Innersprings can be compared to other support components like latex, polyfoam, air, or water and any of these can use any comfort materials that a customer chooses. In the same way … memory foam can be compared to other comfort materials like latex, polyfoam, microcoils, natural or synthetic fibers, buckling column gel, or gel foams (if you put this in a separate category) but are not comparable to innersprings. They are used for completely different purposes in a mattress

I personally would compare the benefits of different support systems to other support systems and the benefits of different comfort materials to other comfort materials and there is no right or wrong here. They all have different qualities and pros and cons and can be added either under (in the case of support materials) or over (in the case of comfort materials) any other material. I wouldn’t exclude any type of material in other words. Everything depends on how well each material provides pressure relief, posture and alignment, and the preferences that each person likes better. An innerspring for example can be superior for one person based on whether it helps more with PPP (pressure relief, posture and alignment, and preferences) while it may be inferior for the next. Memory foam is the same. While all memory foams have issues that other materials tend not to have (and each material or component has it’s own challenges or design considerations), they also have a unique feel to them which many people love.

All of these materials have higher quality and more durable versions and lower quality and less durable versions and they all come in a range of prices. There is more information about all of these and how they can go together in the mattresses section of the site. The good quality versions of all these materials (except air) all have a valuable place in mattress construction.

While it may sound strange for me to say this considering the details of some of my answers and the information on the site … I agree here. IMO … there is “enough” research which is a good thing because it helps ask better questions and helps to be able to tell when someone is speaking from knowledge or from hype or sales techniques. Knowing the difference between a story and factual information depends on having “enough” information.

Researching either less than this (not enough) or more than this (too much) can certainly be counter productive and I have seen both lead to poor decisions on many occasions. On the one hand … not enough makes a consumer very vulnerable to marketing hype and stories and they will likely pay little attention to the quality of materials in their mattress. On the other hand … too much leads to consumers trying to buy a mattress based on specs and overanalyzing at the expense of paying more attention to PPP and the suitability of their mattress to their own unique needs and preferences.

These all appear to be quality materials to me. If the gel is the G foam from flexible foam … it is a good material that I have heard some very positive comments about. It has the a gel polymer infused rather than added as particles and this actually can strengthen the foam it is added to. I also like microcoil comfort layers (the mini innersprings that are used in the comfort layers of a mattress) and a good innerspring can be a high quality component. High performance foam (polyfoam) can also be a high quality material. What this means is generally a foam that used high performance polyols which gives it better properties than conventional foam. HR polyfoam is an example of high performance foam that meets certain minimum density standards but if the density is lower than HR but it still uses high performance chemicals … they often call it either high performance or high comfort. Density is still the key to durability though even with high performance foams.

I would probably have some reservations about this as well. while I understand their focus is more wholesale through retail outlets … I think part of the service if they also sell factory direct should be the ability to make adjustments at a nominal price. I’m not a fan of refunds except for online purchases and I think that it is always wise to approach the purchase of a mattress as if you only had one chance to get it right (it’s more accurate) but of course there are always “mistakes” and I think they are missing the boat by going factory direct without giving their customers any recourse if they make a mistake.

STOP 2: HOUSTON MATTRESS FACTORY

I would assume (hope) that this would include a high quality foundation. On the face of it this seems to be a little on the high side to me but not a lot and this can be misleading just by looking at the inner layers alone. One of the most costly parts of a mattress is the ticking/quilting and in this case there is also the benefit of having the ability to adjust or switch out layers without “hassle” for the warranty period of the mattress. Because their warranty is focused on actually doing what warranties should do … this too has value and personally I would be willing to pay a premium for a high quality mattress that I have personally tested for PPP vs the risk of buying a mattress online that I haven’t actually tried.

Compare for example to something like this which has a thicker tri-zoned latex layer, 4" of 5 lb memory foam, and some high performance polyfoam included in the mix as well as a foundation for about the same price. There are also all latex options with 9" of latex with a wool/stretch knit cover (which is high quality) in King for under $2000 but you would need to add a few hundred more for a good quality foundation. In the end … if the difference is about 20% or less (just an arbitrary number that seems reasonable to me) … then I would probably go local … especially if there are other factors like an unusually good and effective warranty that goes with it and the knowledge that I have a mattress that “works”.

If you are a “all over the place all position” sleeper … then I would tend to go a little firmer than I may otherwise choose if I didn’t spend any time on my stomach. The memory foam will soften over the initial 90 days and with stomach sleeping there is always the danger of having a comfort layer that is too soft which would risk back issues. While normally I wouldn’t suggest adding a thicker layer of low density memory foam to the mix … in this case it may be worth while because the lower density will allow you to sink into the mattress more evenly (shoulders and hips) which would lead to better alignment. A firmer or denser foam on top may hold up part of you but still allow your heavier pelvis to sink in too deeply and this is a big risk of stomach sleeping in particular and to a lesser degree back sleeping. With the warranty they offer … I may be tempted to add to the soft memory foam layer rather than risk alignment by softening up the deeper layers below them … especially when there is already 2" of memory foam in the mix which will gradually sink in more deeply over the course of the night as the foam relaxes with constant pressure (this is called creep and viscoelastic materials are much more prone to this than more resilient materials).

My personal preference though would be to go with a slightly firmer mattress and then add a topper if necessary rather than add to the built in thickness of low density memory foam to add to the pressure relief if it was necessary. I am guessing it will be less desirable or necessary after sleeping on it for 90 days once the initial softening is over but if it is … a thin topper is a good option rather than having more lower density materials in the mattress itself.

I would probably talk with the owner about this and see what he had to say about a topper. Like you though … I would tend to avoid going thicker with the quilting memory foam when a topper option would accomplish the same thing.

So hopefully I have dealt with the pros and cons of all your alternatives so you can add them into your own value equation. The only thing I would caution you about is going too soft for the sake of your side sleeping and would probably take the approach of adding surface softness very carefully. With stomach sleepers … “just enough” for pressure relief (taking into account the possibility of initial foam softening) and no more is usually the best.

Hope this helps … and I hope you have the time to read this "“tome” all the way through :slight_smile:

Phoenix

I certainly had time to read your post (twice in fact!)…thanks for taking them time to give specific, personalized device.

It sounds like if I want to seriously consider the Texas Mattress Makers mattress, I’d need to follow up and get details on what type of gel they use in the comfort layer and what the density of the “high performance foam” is, especially considering that all sales are final. Although it felt “comfortable” in the store, I am a bit concerned that the mattress might be too soft for our particular needs based on the information on their website.
http://texasmattressmakers.com/index.php/en/mattress-collection/sereni-xs-mattresses/119

If we were to by the Houston Mattress Factory mattress as-is and sleep on it for a while to see if it softens up to our liking, what sort of mattress toppers should we consider? I’m wondering how much cost that might add, because I believe he said he would increase the thickness of the top layer to 2" of foam without an upcharge. I think that we are leaning towards purchasing through Houston Mattress Factory, but I’m just not sure which direction to go. I may call the guy and ask him about the idea of adding a topper to get his thoughts.

While adding a topper certainly sounds easier than returning the mattress for modification, it honestly seems kind of silly/odd to me to buy such a high-quality mattress from a place that can make one as requested and then throw a topper on it. Also, wouldn’t it be odd to throw a topper on top of such a low-density memory foam?

I ask these questions above because I hadn’t thought of the idea of adding a topper to soften the mattress and want to consider that possibility before deciding whether to go 1" or 2" on the 2.5# foam comfort layer.

Thanks again for all your advice and counsel!

Hi adamseals,

[quote]It sounds like if I want to seriously consider the Texas Mattress Makers mattress, I’d need to follow up and get details on what type of gel they use in the comfort layer and what the density of the “high performance foam” is, especially considering that all sales are final. Although it felt “comfortable” in the store, I am a bit concerned that the mattress might be too soft for our particular needs based on the information on their website.
texasmattressmakers.com/index.php/en/mat...ni-xs-mattresses/119[/quote]

That makes sense to me. My understanding is that they use the better type of gel foam (infused vs particulate). I personally like the softech microcoil comfort layers but I have only tried them with more resilient foam over them (latex or polyfoam) and I would think they would be very soft with memory foam over them. While there is little doubt that this would be great for pressure relief, I would make sure that it works for alignment in all your sleeping positions. I am thinking this could be risky for someone who spends time on their stomach.

Quilting layers are used to “modify” the feel of the comfort layer below them and while they provide part of the pressure relieving properties, they are mostly for what is called the “surface feel” of the mattress. Because they are also quilted … they are more pre-compressed than the layers below them and because they are already very soft … further softening has less effect on the overall feel of the mattress because you are already “going through” it anyway and feeling more of the layers below.

Once you start adding thickness to the quilting layers though … they start to become a more integral part of the mattress comfort layers and softening can have a bigger overall effect on the mattress itself. The advantage of a topper is that it can be changed at a relatively low cost when it softens too much or wears out or if your needs and preferences change (like sleeping positions changing) without having to open up the mattress. It’s much easier to adjust a mattress that is a little too firm than it is to adjust a mattress that is too soft.

Low density memory foam toppers (an inch or two) are a relatively low cost item and they are a common way of fine tuning a mattress. Adding a topper to further soften a mattress can be a good strategy. Adding a firmer topper to try to “firm up” a mattress that has thicker layers of lower density softer materials wouldn’t work well because the topper will just follow the soft spots of the thicker softer materials below it. A topper can be memory foam or polyfoam (less expensive), latex or natural fibers such as wool (more expensive). Each has it’s own set of advantages and disadvantages but they are a great way to get to your best layering and adjust the feel and are also a “safer” way to use lower density materials if you like the feel of them without affecting the overall durability of the mattress. With the sheets and mattress protector over them they are just another layer of your sleeping system. I also think talking to him would be a good idea because he will have a lot of experience with the materials he uses in the thicknesses he uses and based on my conversations with him I have no doubt that he would tell you anything but the truth of his own experience and customer feedback.

Once further comment would be to make sure that you spend at least 15 minutes or more while you are fully relaxed on this mattress in the showroom (like when you are in the pre-sleep state and all your muscles have "let go) and spend some time in all your sleeping positions. The reason for this is because when there is memory foam deeper in a mattress it will take more time to soften and for you to get the true feel of the mattress. Once it starts to soften … as the heat reaches it, then the layers over it will follow and “bend into” the softer response of the memory foam. Memory foam is a slow response foam even when you are sleeping directly on it so even here it’s important to spend enough time when you are testing memory foam but it is much slower when it is deeper in the mattress and it can feel firmer initially until it starts to soften with a little more time. I would really hesitate to soften this mattress by adding more memory foam in the quilting unless you know for certain that it is too firm when you have laid on it for a longer time in all your sleeping positions (especially your stomach and also your back). My sense is that you may be tending to a mattress that may be a bit on the soft side for your sleeping positions (depending on how much time you spend in each position).

Hope this helps

Phoenix

Update:

We ended up taking the plunge and purchasing the mattress from Houston Mattress Factory. I debated between the standard 1" top layer of Memory Foam and increasing it to 2" and ultimately split the difference and asked him to use a 1.5" top layer.

We have slept on the bed 2 nights so far and I am optimistic that it will work. I know it’s always an adjustment trying out a new bed, but I haven’t had too much trouble adjusting and am not waking up with as much lower back pain.

It is actually softer than I was expecting (it felt a bit too firm in the store), and I’m not sure if that is due to the slight increase in the thickness of the top layer or because I am laying directly on the mattress rather than on top of plastic and a blanket.

Thanks again Phoenix for all the advice. Hopefully I won’t be asking for your input on how to modify this mattress. :slight_smile:

Hi adamseals,

Congratulations on your new mattress :slight_smile:

You did well in terms of value and from the sounds of it, it also sounds like you “hit the mark” in terms of your needs and preferences as well!

I hope you have a chance to report back when you’ve had a chance to sleep on it for a while.

Phoenix

First off… incredible, Houston-local thread for the mattress purchaser. My brief story: I moved to San Antonio to go to law school for three years and picked up a Serta Eurotop Firm from Sams. (when I first tried to return it, I thought Costco, which has an amazing, just drop it off return policy). I am still working on getting the paperwork together to return the mattress to Sam’s. The mattress had a noticeable sag in the middle. If I were sleeping there with another, we’d wind up in a cute or not-so-cute sluice in the middle of the mattress. I picked up a quilt topper off Woot and that seemed to fix the problem, but I still want to step it up from Reebok cross trainers to a nice jogging shoe, so to speak. I know that VALUE is very important in the mattress world, but there is also a lot of “you get what you pay for.” That being said, I think I could find something very good in the $1,000-1,3000 range. Speaking to a buddy at work he told me he and his fiancee just lucked into a Temperpedic for free from a relative. He said he loves it, but it sleeps a little too hot. (still trying to figure out what that means: I sleep with fans pumped on me all night, so I guess that’s an indication that I’m a hot sleeper).

I moved from San Antonio to Houston on a Sunday to start work that next Monday. This was at the beginning of November. I have been sleeping on my old bed in Houston at my parents house and just was able to move into my apartment. The buddy told me about Texas Mattress Makers, and I did a google search. This Assistance Requested in Houston came up. So me and a friend went to check out first Houston Mattress Factory, then we went to Texas Mattress Makers, were my trusted co-worker told me he had a friend who had an excellent experience.

  1. Houston Mattress Factory:

At that point, I’d only skimmed this extensive, and amazingly helpful website, I was out of my element. And yeah, when you go in, there are just a bunch of mattresses all piled up. I tried out a few, and she told me all about them. The woman who showed me around was extremely knowledgable, but I had no idea what I wanted or what she was talking about and I couldn’t give her any feedback. I felt as if I were a NASCAR driver that just ran a few laps and the crew chief asked what needed tweaking. I’m thinking, “well the car ran. And it ran fast. Where’s the next one?” I couldn’t explain what I was looking for or why one mattress was better or what material was good, I just basically wanted to get the best bang for my buck. Hey, the same materials used in a mattress for half the price and twice the attention to detail, I’ll take that one! But she was very thorough and I left my first mattress store ready to try the second.

  1. Texas Mattress Makers

Now that I’d laid on a few mattresses, we headed over to the place my buddy at work recommended his friend had a very good experience with (that goes a long way with me). At this point, I’m wondering why these stores don’t just have one mattress so you can walk out knowing you got the best one! The showroom was very clean and enticing. I was helped out by Lax, who was also very knowledgable, patient and courteous. First I told him what I know about mattresses. Then half a minute later, he had me going all throughout the room trying out different mattresses. I assume this was so I could develop a palate to refine my tastes. I checked out the (1) Spring mattress first. This was just your average guest bedroom mattress. Good enough to get the night done, about as comfortable as soft carpet. After a few more mattresses and a little more conversation about sleeping and mattresses, he suggested that I would prefer a softer mattress. I then tried out the London Eurotop Deluxe. I stopped for a few moments on it to figure things out. And really liked it. It was soft. He was explaining about the microcoils and the thin layer of cooling gel in the topper and I was listening. He actually said he had this model in his house for two years and his kids and everyone love it. Sounds good.

I’m thinking, where’s the foam? The good stuff I was supposed to get cheaper for a higher quality? So I checked out a couple foam mattresses and my body didn’t sink in. It contoured. It wasn’t all that soft at all. I don’t know what I was expecting. After reading this forum, I realize now that I didn’t lay on it long enough to give it a shot to warm up and work its “magic” (a word nobody would ever use with unsexy coils). He showed me a sidecut (along with the actual materials to squeeze), one that emulates the best “S” brand foam, and one with his foam. Showing (with pride I might add), why his was superior. It did seem the materials and craftsmanship were on par with the very best and the thought that went into it was undoubtedly extensive. Feeling the different densities of foam gave a template for my later online research. So then he showed me a final model Rome that had many-many wound coils throughout the entire inside the mattress. I found this one too firm. He said it is always better to buy a mattress that is too firm and then soften it up with a topper than to go the other way around. He likened this mattress to having lots of little fingers holding you up, responding to you as you move. I said, “the same theory as a bed of nails.” We both laughed.

So after all that, I still went back to the London to give it one more shot. I just liked it. I don’t want to just like it in the store because it’s like sleeping on a pillow, I want to like it in real life. What am I missing about the gel memory foam? From what I have read on the site the microcoil/thin layer of gel will take the place of anything deep in the mattress supporting that layer. Is this mattress a good value at $1,235 for the set? Should I buy a mattress based on what I’m certain I will grow accustomed to and not what feels the best for the 10 mins in the store? Finally, are the box springs that are used to support the comfort layers of the mattress going to hold up for 5-10 years? I know they won’t hold up like a full foam mattress, but what life should I expect? Is this VALUE?

Thanks again so much for the tips and steering me away from a mattress outlet with a sales pitch. I told my mattress story to a guy I sit next to at work and he said a guy once told him “never be afraid to spend a bit on anything that facilitates your body touching the ground: shoes, mattresses, chairs, tires…”

– Would really appreciate your opinion on the mattress and any other opinions you may have in general.

–Puttslayer

Hi puttslayer,

The first place I would start your research is the tutorial post here which has all the basic information, steps, and guidelines you will need to make the best possible choice. It also includes the answers to many of your questions

Once you are at step 3 then the better options and possibilities I’m aware of are listed in post #2 here which also includes Texas Mattress Makers who is the newest member of the site (they were just added today) which means they are among the manufacturers or retailers that I think highly of and believe compete well with the best in the industry.

If you follow all the steps in the tutorial post you will end up making a great choice. As you will also read … outside of careful and objective testing for PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences), the most important part of a mattress purchase is to make sure that you know the quality of all the materials inside your mattress (see this article). The quality guidelines I use are in post #4 here and if you find out and list the information about all the materials in the mattress in the forum (and they will provide these to you) I’d be happy to comment on the quality of the materials inside the mattress or the mattress in general.

Phoenix

I went to two Houston mattress makers today and wanted to share my experience.

HOUSTON MATTRESS FACTORY

I first tried two natural latex mattresses. My trouble is that I could not tell much of a difference between them. As described by the owner, they were:

(1)
Support layer(s): 9 to 10 inches of 28-30 ILD Dunlop latex, in progressive layers (firmer on bottom)
Comfort layer: 2 inches of 24 ILD Talalay latex

This felt comfortable, but harder than the bed I’m used to. That being said, it felt good. It had a perimeter beam and cotton cover. The total cost was $1670 for a King, I believe. Is that a good deal?

(2)
Reversible mattress
Support layer: 5.5 inches of 22 ILD Dunlop latex
Comfort layer(s): 1.25 inches of 24 ILD Talalay latex, on each side

The King size was $2200, being more expensive because it is reversible, I was told.
No perimeter beam. Even though the support layer was softer than #1, it felt about equally firm.

I then tried a “Murphy” bed:
(3)
Support layer: 3-4 inches of ILD 33 synthetic latex called XL33
Comfort layer(s): 3-5 inches of polyfoam, ILD 15
Perimeter beam

King price was $844.
I like the softness of this one a bit better than the first two. But I am concerned that the synthetic latex loses some of the benefits, and its buried in polyfoam, which I am concerned will degrade more quickly.
Does that make sense to anyone?

TEXAS MATTRESS MAKERS

The showroom was somewhat nicer here, but the return/improvement policy did not feel as flexible.

I tried several latex mattresses with a bamboo cover, which felt nice.

But the salesmax (Lax), who was nice, steered me to this bed:
“Madrid”
Support layer: 8" of “microcoils” (Quantum trademarked pocketed coils)
Comfort layer: 1" of 2.5lb 33 ILD polyfoam.
No perimeter
King $1900

Would someone point me to some information on the “microcoils” and whether they are any better than regular pocketed coils? I think the salesman was explaining that having more of them allowed finer pressure relief. I am concerned about durability, squeaking, etc. compared to latex. The price of $1900 seemed high for a non-latex bed, but is that consistent with “microcoils”?

I am also concerned that the comfort layer had polyfoam instead of latex. Would that be a concern to anyone else?

Hi camb,

I would want to know the blend of the latex and I would also want to know the thickness of all the layers in the mattress (see this article) so that you have confirmed that all the layers and materials are included in your description but if all the layers are latex and there are no other materials then there would be no weak link in the design.

There is more about the most important parts of the “value” of a mattress in post #13 here. As you can see there is much more to the value of any mattress purchase than just the price you pay or the cost of the raw materials. Value is always relative to how a mattress compares to other similar mattresses or to any other mattresses you are considering and are available to you and are included in your finalists based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are important to you. While I don’t know whether the price you quoted is for a “mattress only” and I’m not sure if you included all the layers in the mattress in your description, or any of the other criteria that may be important to you and their “value” to you (such as return or exchange policies) … the price seems to be very reasonable for a 9" to 10" latex mattress. I’m not sure what you mean by a “perimeter beam” if you are referring to some type of edge support then there is more in post #3 here about edge support for latex mattresses.

I would make sure you do some careful testing on this mattress to make sure that it’s a good match for you in terms of PPP because the ILD of the support core is a little softer than the norm … and again I would want to know the blend of the latex … but if you are confident that it’s a good match for you then there would be no weak links in this mattress either. There is more about the pros and cons of a two sided mattress in post #3 here and the posts it links to.

Polyfoam comes in a very wide range of grades from very low quality to very high quality and unfortunately these specs are incomplete and are missing the density of the polyfoam layers so I can’t make any meaningful comments about it. If you can confirm that the latex is actually synthetic latex (and not just polyfoam that may have a tiny percentage of latex inside it) and the density of the polyfoam comfort layers then I’d be happy to make some comments about the quality of the materials or let you know if I can see any obvious weak links in the design. I would make sure that the law tag includes latex in the materials (it should be well over 50% of the materials by weight if these are all the materials in this mattress).

You can read a little more about Quantum Coils in post #5 here and in post #8 here. They are high quality pocket coils (although they are also more costly than many other innersprings) and 2.5 lb polyfoam is also a very high quality and durable material so if these are all the layers in this mattress and nothing is “missing” then there would be no weak links in this mattress either.

As you probably also know Texas Mattress Makers is also a member of this site which means that I think highly of them and I believe they compete well with the best in the industry in terms of their quality, value, service, and transparency.

You are certainly looking at some good options (with the exception of #3 because I don’t have enough information to say anything about it) and you have some very good final choices that would all be well worth considering.

Phoenix

I bought a mattress from Texas Mattress Makers. The quality is unsurpassed. I got the model with the micro-coils and then a thin layer of memory foam on top. I LIKE it and it is top quality, but realized I don’t need that. I’d be happy without falling for the “memory foam” crazy which I was actually tried to steer away from at TMM, but I was hell bent that the more you pay the better, and memory foam equals comfort. I wasn’t wrong, but wasn’t right. I’d prefer no foam. I’m a firm-support, could guy. But the mattress is great, I would now just prefer a little firmer mattress. But I sleep like a pig in poop every night. Maybe I sleep too well…

Hi Puttslayer,

Thanks for letting us know what you ended up deciding … and for the update as well.

You certainly made a great choice … and perhaps a little belatedly … congratulations on your new mattress :slight_smile:

Phoenix

Phoenix,

Thank you for the helpful response!

At Houston Mattress Factory, I think I’ve eliminated (2) and would focus on (1) and (3). I’ve read your linked articles and will follow up to get the blend of latex, if blended. I can confirm that the “perimeter beam” the owner spoke of is an edge support beam. Thank you for linking to the article on those; it was helpful in understanding that this may be the “weak point” of a bed.

At Texas Mattress Makers, I will check if there are any “missing” layers. I’m just a bit hesitant on that model because I had a preconceived notion that latex offered the best long term value and had other benefits (breathability, heat dispersal, dust mite resistant, hypoallergenic), and now I’m focusing on a mattress with no latex at all. Would it make sense to ask about switching the 2.5# 33ILD polyfoam comfort layer for a 33ILD latex layer?

The salesman did a test where I laid down on my back, and he put his fists on either side of me, pretty close, and pushed down. On the Quantum coils, I could not really feel it. On the latex, I could feel it a bit more. I’m not sure what that test shows, however. Is that a standard test in the industry?

I suppose it would show that if I had my wife or a child sleeping next to me on latex, it might remove the support for my back or hips. But maybe I’m missing something.

Let me thank you again for the wonderful resources on this site.

Hi camb,

Post #13 here that I linked earlier has more about the most important parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase based on each person’s individual needs and preferences and the most suitable choice or “best value” for one person may be very different from the most suitable choice or “best value” for someone else.

There is also more about the many variables that can affect temperature regulation in post #2 here but springs are more breathable than any type of foam (although the support components aren’t as big a factor in temperature regulation as the materials and components of a mattress that are closer to you). There is also more about dust mite allergies in post #2 here

Switching out the 2.5 lb polyfoam may not be an option they even have available but even if it was it would be a different mattress that may not be as suitable for you in terms of PPP. The ILD of latex also isn’t comparable to the ILD of polyfoam (see post #6 here). Unless you had the chance to test a different mattress in person … it probably wouldn’t make a great deal of sense to make changes that can add to the uncertainty or risk of the choice you are making.

I aren’t really any “standard” tests for testing for PPP but they were helping you to experience the difference between different materials in terms of motion isolation and how much one person’s movement can be felt by someone else that is sleeping on the mattress. It would also show the “point elasticity” of the materials (how exactly a material can conform to a body shape without affecting the surface area around it) which can also affect how much one person sinking in to the mattress can affect the other person on the mattress if you sleep close together (the heavier person can create a valley that the other one may roll into). The “best” test to check for motion isolation or for a couple to know how much one person will affect the other one though would be to test a mattress together.

Phoenix

HOUSTON MATTRESS FACTORY

I have a bit more information on a mattress I at which we are looking at this store, but was hoping for some help understanding the technical specs. Here is a photo of the innards of the mattress:

  • The top layer is 2.25" of “cooling gel,” which specs out as “AUG” or “Aerus Gel” from Brenham Gel in Texas.
  • The second layer is 2.25" of 3.5lb. Visco Memory Foam “FXI”
    [li] The bottom layer is 2.25" of 5 lb Visco Memory Foam, with an ILD I believe is 35.

I know from reading this site that mattress wear from the top layer down. So my primary question is whether this Aerus cooling gel has longeviety and will be prone to forming body impressions. When I tested it, it rebounds to its flat shape in just 2 or 3 seconds, like memory foam.

There are benefits to such a soft gel layer in terms of contouring to my body. Especially since I am 6’4" 180" and broad in the shoulder; so when I sleep on my side, a “squishier” top layer could help accommodate the shoulder sinking in.

But I am just concerned about it forming body impressions, losing its resilience over time, and it making it harder to roll over or shift positions slightly on the bed. Any thoughts?

Or any thoughts on whether a “cooling gel” really works to cool the body?

Besides that “cooling gel” layer, do you see any weak links in the rest of the mattress?

Does a price of $1865 for a King mattress sound like a good value?

TEXAS MATTRESS MAKER

At this store, we are narrowing in on the “Madrid” mattress, which has this design:

  • Top layer is 3" if 30 ILD support foam
  • Middle layer is 8" of “Quantum” pocket coils
  • Bottom layer is 1" of 2.5lb 33ILD polyfoam

This is a very different feel from the “cooling gel” mattress I just discussed – you sink in less, and feel more pushed up against immediately. I know I have to determine “PPP.” But are there any weak links in this design? And would it be a “good value” at $1800?

The salesman at Texas Mattress Maker also encouraged us to look at a mattress that has 8" of pocket coils, topped by 3" of Talalay latex. I still think there are benefits to Latex. But the owner of Houston Mattress Factory said he would "never’ sell that design because the coils dig into the Latex. Does that make sense to anyone? Has anyone seen that happening?

If I had to do it again, this is what I’d do. I would stop thinking for myself in a field I have limited knowledge in and take the advice of the pros who are in this for life: just get a solid coil/microcoil mattress from Houston Mattress Makers and then adjust as wanted. It’s really not that big of a deal. You have to trust me when I say this because I’ve been through the fire of a mattress purchase and am on the other side. I thought about my mattress, OBSESSED about my mattress, but in the end it’s really only a place you’re going to spend half your life.

Question 1: Memory Foam vs Coils?

If after you do your due diligence as Phoenix suggests and you still just don’t know: you are coils. You can always add a topper. I love New Balance shoes. A buddy of mine likes cheap shoes and just puts a quality insert in them. You don’t want to be stuck with something you obsess over and can’t change. You can always add that layer of memory foam or latex which will be supported by the coils. I know you don’t want to spend a lot of money and then have to modify the mattress to your liking, but tough it out. You will be happier.

Question 2: The mattress is in my house, what now?

When my mattress arrived at my home, I expected angels to be singing as I drifted off into the sweet sandman’s arms. That is not realistic. The mattress is much different in your house, and much different after six months. They say that there is a “break in period” to any mattress. That’s half you breaking in the mattress and half the mattress breaking in you. My mattress has coils and then a thin layer of memory foam.

The first period of break-in:
During the first couple months of break-in, I was always conscious about the memory foam. I thought I may have made a mistake. After ALL that research and searching and and questioning, I knew more about mattresses than a majority of the salespeople I talked to. At that point, I knew more about mattresses than I will ever know in my life.

Which leads me to another tip: a salesperson is not a mattress professional. Outside of the Houston stores recommended on this fantastic site, I met ONE person who knew as much about mattresses as I did. That was at the DUMP, which actually had some pretty good mattresses, but their sales pressure tactics are vicious. The knowledgable salesperson I had was low-key and informative and we had a great discussion about mattresses, but his “manager” came up at one point to another salesperson within my earshot and said, “hey we only have two of these left.” Which they might have. Except that I asked my salesperson about it and he said that wasn’t true and the mattress would probably be available through the next weekend. Only go in there if you have the power to leave.

Which leads me to another comical story. I walked into one of the big chain’s warehouse store next to Gallery Furniture (where I went to “look for a mattress” as an excuse to see the monkeys and birds and Mattress Mack), and the whole time I was educating him on mattresses. Eventually, I humored him, sat at the desk and had the “table talk”. I told him I was thinking about the other mattresses I’d seen, especially from Texas Mattress Makers (I went there three times before I bought the mattress). I told him I want to do all the research I could before I purchased a mattress. He pulled out his calculator, punched in some numbers and said, “look, do you want to have the best sleep of your life tonight? I’ll tell you what. I’ll give you this price (punches in some numbers) if you buy right now. You know what, I’ll even give you this price (punches in more numbers). We don’t even make money off this price. If you find a mattress similar to this one at that Texas Mattress Makers that is cheaper than this, I’ll refund any of the difference”. Right buddy. Which is a tip in and of itself. Once you buy a mattress, YOUR SEARCH IS OVER. Let it go.

If you’ve really studied this site, try going into one of the big chains and just ask open ended questions and listen to the responses. It’s almost comical. You know more than almost any salesperson out there because you’re passionate about it and they’re not. BUT you don’t know more than a mattress lifer. A mattress professional will know what you know plus 20 years of experience. Trust those people. A great mattress sells itself.

The second period of break-in:
After a few months, I forgot to think about it.

The third period of break-in:
The third period (about 6 months in), where I am now, the mattress is awesome. I mean it’s a mattress. It’s everything I would expect. To use a baseball analogy, the best umpires are the ones you don’t even know are there. I haven’t consciously thought about my mattress since this thread got replied to and I got an e-mail. The memory foam has settled down, and I’ve found new sleeping positions. I used to be a 100% back sleeper, never sleeping on my side, now I find myself doing it sometimes and I like it. When I answered “unknown” to coils vs memory foam, I immediately answered memory foam because I wanted to like it. My current mattress from Texas Mattress Makers does have the thin layer of memory foam above the micro-coils and then the base. The people there make mattresses. They live mattresses. Mattresses pay for their life. Trust them. Reading about mattresses is a great way to know what you’re getting, but it gets to a point where you will not know what you’re getting. Once again with the analogies, it’s like reading about how to throw a curveballl.

My advice would be:

  1. Know that the mattress in the store will be much different from the one in your home. Ask questions about this and trust the professional who lets you know what to expect.

  2. If you think the mattress is at all too soft, don’t get it. You can always make it softer.

  3. DO NOT get wrapped up in the hype of memory foam vs. latex vs. coils. But be knowledgable.

  4. Memory foam is different from your coil mattress, be sure you like that feeling.

My first few nights with my mattress, I didn’t know if the memory foam topper and myself would “gel”. I thought I might have gone overboard and cursed the seductive space-age name of “memory foam”. But now it’s fine. I’m not unhappy it’s there, but I do wish that I had a little more opportunity to soften up the bed or make it harder at my own whim via a topper, but it works just fine and I don’t have to mess with it. I’m comfy every night. My mattress broke me in, or I broke it in, or something happened. I don’t love it, I don’t hate it. It’s my nighttime umpire: I always sleep sound, never wake up with any problems whatsoever, and best of all, I never even know it’s there.

Hi camb,

I would need to know the complete specs to make any meaningful comments about either mattress (see this article).

[quote]The top layer is 2.25" of “cooling gel,” which specs out as “AUG” or “Aerus Gel” from Brenham Gel in Texas.
The second layer is 2.25" of 3.5lb. Visco Memory Foam “FXI”
The bottom layer is 2.25" of 5 lb Visco Memory Foam, with an ILD I believe is 35.[/quote]

The density of the top layer of gel memory foam is missing. The specs are also missing at least one layer of polyfoam on the bottom (I would need to know the details of all the layers that add up to the height of the mattress). The bottom layer of memory foam wouldn’t be 35 ILD but ILD isn’t a spec you need to know anyway because it’s a “comfort spec” which you can feel rather than a “quality spec” which affect the durability of the material.

[quote]Top layer is 3" if 30 ILD support foam
Middle layer is 8" of “Quantum” pocket coils
Bottom layer is 1" of 2.5lb 33ILD polyfoam[/quote]

While it’s likely to be fine because Texas Mattress Makers tends to use high quality materials … I would need to know the density of the top layer of polyfoam in this one as well to make any meaningful comments about it.

You can read more about gel memory foam in post #2 here. The gel can have “some effect” on temperature regulation for a little while when you first go to sleep at night until temperatures equalize.

Mattresses that use latex over pocket coils are a preference for many people who prefer the feel and durability of having latex on their sleeping surface and like the feel and response and familiarity of having pocket coils as their support system. There are many manufacturers that make this type of mattress and if they use a good quality pocket coil with a reasonable coil count to support the latex (or in some cases a layer above the coils to even out the support of the coils) they can make a very high quality and durable choice that certainly don’t have the issues that they are mentioning.

Phoenix