So, I read through that thread and then started to look at the Christeli mattresses. In a quick overview of their Tempurpedic Grand competitor(Lux Estate): 2" 8lb memory foam, 4" 5.3lb memory foam, made in USA(I believe Certipur), and a more durable latex core instead of a polyfoam core. All this and their price is $1900 with free shipping and 2 pillows at their current sale. I really think my request amount is quite reasonable now, but if it means too great of a loss (I don’t know their overhead) on Selectfoam’s part, they may just prefer a return to reuse materials or sell it used at cost to an employee.
We’re at just over 3 weeks and I thought I would give a quick update on 2 key categories:
ODOR:
Odor has mostly dispensed at this point. Room is only aired about 20 minutes in the morning due to the temperature and remains closed all day (and most of the night) with an air purifier on. I’m not picking up on the odor when I come home from work like I was in the first two weeks. Final test will be Thanksgiving weekend when I will be gone for 4 days/nights just in case I’ve adjusted to any remaining odor this will distinguish it.
COMFORT:
I’m liking the feel and support of the mattress a lot better without the wool cover on it. Last night I had to help a friend move a lot of heavy equipment which caused some pain to my lower back. I noticed that, from the time I got into the bed until the morning when I got out, my back pain was relieved so really feels like I’m getting proper support. Once I sink down into the 7.2lb comfort layers and hit the support layer it seems to align my spine correctly. Only issue I’m still having is a bit with side sleeping. It’s possible more break-in is needed for this, but I think I should be approaching the “broken in” period soon and be feeling close to the “permanent” feel as far as comfort and support goes. I have difficulty falling asleep on my side and seems like my turning to my side in the night may be waking me sometimes due to minor twinges in my back. I expect this minor pain to disappear once the mattress and I are fully accustomed to each other. I want to see where things stand in another week for side sleeping.
SELECTFOAM:
Received a call from Matt, the owner of Selectfoam, a couple of days ago that I haven’t had the opportunity to return due to a busy schedule lately. It was polite and apologized for the mix-up in what I ordered versus what I received. He left me his direct number and since today is a bit more “free” for me I will be giving a call back this afternoon.
Quick update(about 7 weeks):
ODOR:
Odor seems to have completely dispensed. I could not smell anything upon returning after a 4 day absence.
COMFORT:
Mattress remains comfortable without the wool cover. Back sleeping is great and side sleeping is good, but not perfect. I imagine a mattress that is perfect for all sleeping positions probably doesn’t exist. Without the wool cover, back pain is completely relieved when back sleeping/lying. I think any sleeping deficiencies at this point are the fault of my body and not the mattress.
TEARS/SPLITS:
The tears/splits number over 2 dozen in the top 7.2lb; none as deep as the original one pictured and can be up to a length of 5cm. I actually heard one “pop” into existence from supporting myself with my elbow while leaning on my side(and I am not a heavy man!). They are predominantly located where my upper back/shoulder impact the mattress. This was of concern to me so I contacted Matt at Select Foam and received this reply:
“This happens to all memory foam products. Not anything to be worried about, as they don’t have a tendency to spread or to affect pressure relief. Tensile strengths (tear strengths) on HD foams never are very high, which is why you don’t see them used in topper applications.”
SELECTFOAM:
I’ve spoken to Matt in length on the phone twice and exchanged a few emails. He seems genuinely interested in keeping his customers satisfied. He expressed concern and offered apologies over the material difference in the mattress I thought I was buying versus the mattress I received. My conversations with him have been interesting and quite informative. We did negotiate a partial refund, however, he has also promised to send latex mattress toppers as the last piece of the puzzle in making me completely comfortable. I am still waiting on the toppers at this time. I am very interested in the feel of latex and memory foam together as I’ve read a few positive posts about that combination.
Hi GrandMasterJ,
Thanks for another very informative update 
It’s interesting to see how your experience with the mattress and SelectFoam is “evolving”. It will also be interesting to see how you like the latex on top of the memory foam. Some combinations of latex over memory foam produce a “feel” that I personally like.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix,
I’m interested in your opinion on latex toppers. I did have the opportunity to test out some latex mattresses at The Organic Mattress Store in PA, Cozypure among them. Cozypure was the most comfortable to me overall, but not very comfortable for side sleeping due to the resistance against my shoulders sinking in. The sales personnel informed me that the ILD rating of the Cozypure (with 3" topper) was 65. Two other beds I tried there were 75 and and something in the 80s and too firm for me. These numbers mean little to me except to compare between the different latex toppers. Matt originally informed me he would be sending a topper with 24 ILD and one firmer or softer; I forget which and the number. How well will these soft toppers mesh with the dense memory foam layer on the bed already?
Matt informs me that the combination “is like sleeping on water.” Not a waterbed, to be clear.
I’m thinking of clothing this bed in linen sheets. I know mattresses are the focus here, but I’d be interested if anyone had any opinions on that. Supposedly last generations (archaeologists have found linen 4000 years old), softer the more you wash them, “sleeps cool,” and were commonly the “luxury of royalty bedding.”
Numbers like 65, 75, and 80s are likely density values, being measures in kg/m3. The higher the density, the firmer the latex. Note that NR latex will have a higher density than blended density since NR rubber has more mass than an equal amount of SBR rubber, therefore you can only really use density to compare firmness between latex having the same amount of NR. It also likely implies Dunlop, which is usually measured by density and not by ILD.
An ild of 24, on the other hand, is very likely blended talalay.
There have been a few good threads here re linen, which you should be able to search for. I happened to have linen sheets and like them lots. Note that linen tends to be more expensive, and has a more rough feel than cotton, so it’s worthwhile seeing if you like them…in my experience people either love them or hate them (I.e. I like them, my wife swears they’d be too rough).
For linen, I’d recommend you check out
- mine are St. Geneve from tmasc.ca
- roughlinen.com
- linoto.com (only heard good things but have no personal experience with these)
Hi grandMasterJ,
What they are giving you is the density of the Dunlop latex rather than the ILD. You can see the rough translation from density into ILD for 100% natural Dunlop in post #2 here. I would keep in mind as well that this is just the ILD of the top layer and all the layers of a mattress will have an effect on how it feels not just the top layer. ILD is also only one factor that determines the softness of a material so I would also keep in mind that they are not necessarily comparable between different types of latex because Talalay and Dunlop both have a different compression modulus (they get firmer as you compress them more deeply at different rates) so Dunlop will feel firmer than Talalay of the same ILD when it is compressed more than 25% (where most ILD measurements are taken) which is why Dunlop generally will feel firmer than the same ILD and thickness of Talalay.
That’s a personal preference. Some people will like the combination and say it blends well and others would say it doesn’t and don’t like it as much. It will also depend on the type of memory foam and how sensitive it is to heat because a layer on top of memory foam will reduce the amount of heat that reaches the memory foam underneath it which will slow down how quickly it warms up and affect its firmness and response. Thicker layers on top of memory foam will reduce the amount of heat that reaches the memory foam more than thinner layers so the thickness of each layer will also make a difference in how the combination feels and some people may like one latex / memory foam combination (with different types and thicknesses of each material) more than another. In my own case I like the feeling of a more resilient sleeping surface that comes from the latex with the slower somewhat “delayed reaction” sinking in from the memory foam underneath it.
Linen sheets are among the coolest sleeping sheets and are also very durable. As you mentioned they also get softer with use. You can read more about different types of sheets in post #7 here and the other posts it links to and the last two links in the post lead to threads which talk more about silk and linen sheets.
Phoenix
Thanks for the replies, both of you.
@DN
I took a quick look at St. Geneve bedding when I started researching sheets 2 weeks ago. I then migrated to Sferra sheets(seems on par with St. Geneve in price and quality?) where I spent a majority of my time reading whatever reviews I could find, gasping for breath at the prices, and looking for possible closeouts or discounts. In a review of Sferra linens on Amazon, the user mentioned Rough Linen as his second favorite linen and I promptly emailed Tricia with questions and requested a sample (been a few days and no reply, hopefully at least the sample went out). Do you feel the linens were worth the price? What did you pay for yours (if you don’t mind my asking)?
The best I found for the Sferra Linens was $600 for a whole set on eBay(which I’d prefer not to use). Have you felt Rough Linen? Opinions? It seems the Sferra ones are “more refined” and shouldn’t feel rough at all. Does your wife find them softer and smoother after multiple washings?
My concern would be with dampening that dense memory layer and its reaction to my body. I removed (and do not like) the wool cover that comes on the mattress because it highly impacts the reaction of the memory foam to my body. I’m one of those people who likes sinking into the mattress like I’m half submerged in some kind of supportive quicksand.
Side story: At work they asked me what I did on my day off last week. I said “I spent it buying Christmas gifts and researching bedding all day; not at all what I wanted or planned to do. It’s a real hassle researching everything to death, but I do have few regrets in my purchases.” The reply I got was “Well, we’re glad you do it because then we don’t have to research anything; we just ask you!” Freeloaders!
Hi GrandMasterJ,
Great questions! A couple background notes… My wife and I have a master bed, and also I have a twinxl bed. I snore, so at sleeping time i go to the other room with twinxl. The twinxl has the linen fitted sheet and linen pillow cases. I have a duvet in a cotton duvet cover, and don’t use a flat sheet.
- Is linen worth the price? Ans: I like it and am planning on getting some more, so yes.
- Does my wife like it after several washings? Ans: no, or at least hasn’t said so. That said she doesn’t try it often. We have a really nice St. Geneve cotton on the king.
- For mine, I paid … Well whatever the price for a twinxl fitted sheet and 2 queen pillow cases is at tmasc.ca. I think $150 for the pillow cases and $275 for the fitted sheet.
- Have I felt rough linen? Ans: yes I have one of their sample cards. The Rough Linen smooth linen feels near identical to my St. Geneve linen (which is good because St. Geneve is supposed to be pretty premium). St. Geneve and Rough Linen smooth seem comparable.
Other misc notes. What I did was start small… i.e. pillow cases and fitted sheet, without doing the full linen treatment of everything. I’d recommend that approach, unless there is a significant discount to buying everything at once. That way you can see if you like it.
Linen doesn’t stretch, so when used with latex for next go around I plan on getting a fitted sheet that’s too big. I didn’t do that, and while it doesn’t interfere with the feel of the bed, it does mean the fitted sheet hikes up the mattress showing the mattress protector under it (Tricia’s beef at Rough Linen).
My next linens would probably be a Rough Linen flat sheet in the natural color, or maybe a duvet cover.
I use Leblanc linen wash to clean it. It’s what tmasc.ca recommends. I seem to recall other reputable linen shops recommending it. But likely any mild detergent would be good. I hang (inside the house) to dry, which takes about 4-5 hours.
Hi GrandMasterJ,
Yes … this is part of how different latex /memory foam combinations (or any material over memory foam) can have a very different “feel”. It will depend on the material above the memory foam, the specific properties of the memory foam (temperature sensitivity, recovery time, etc), and the thickness of each layer. My own personal preference is a thinner layer of latex (to allow more of the “feel” of the memory foam to “come through”) and a relatively thin layer of memory foam (I’m not a fan of the “in the mattress” feel of memory foam) but each person may have a different preference. There are many different combinations that can feel very different from each other even though they are in the same general “category” of a memory foam / latex (or other materials) combinations in the comfort layers.
I guess you could call that the “doctor at the party” syndrome! … except instead of free medical advice it’s free mattress advice.
Phoenix
I received a sample from both Linoto and Rough Linen. The Linoto White Eco-Belgian definitely feels the softest to me. Even so, it still feels like a coarse material; just how much do these soften with washing? If I’m not loving the samples, will I not love the material given how it softens with washing?
Still no toppers from Selectfoam and Matt’s phone number appears to have changed.
[quote=“GrandMasterJ” post=29384]I received a sample from both Linoto and Rough Linen. The Linoto White Eco-Belgian definitely feels the softest to me. Even so, it still feels like a coarse material; just how much do these soften with washing? If I’m not loving the samples, will I not love the material given how it softens with washing?
[/quote]
Hard to say. I’ve been about 10 washes of mine so far. It is softening slowly, but not yet close to the softness of (good) cotton. I would still describe it as fairly course. I find I generally enjoy the texture of linen on the fitted sheet. Undecided on pillow case (I have both, and I flip flop). And haven’t tried duvet cover or top sheet in linen yet - (I use the duvet like a top sheet, and my duvet cover is cotton).
I asked my wife again, she still much prefers cotton to washed linen.
One thing i don’t understand yet, is I’ve come across samples of linen that feel way softer than other samples of seemingly the same kind of linen. E.g. My rough linen sample card, the st Bart’s blue was noticeably softer than everything else (including the st Bart’s in other colors). I don’t know if that’s somehow accidental, or if it’s predictave of how it’ll feel when bought, or if it’s evidence of how it’ll feel after about 100 washes, or if it’s because the diff colors are totally different linens, or what. So far,the samples I’ve felt that are that soft haven’t been a color or style I’ve wanted to buy, so I haven’t got any first hand experience. The same happened to me while feeling and selecting the st Geneve linen I got.
I have had linen clothes that have been washed a ton, and I wouldn’t say it becomes so soft that you wouldn’t recognize it as linen. Whether you grow to like it or find it softer with washing is a big unknown.
Hi GrandmasterJ,
With linen there are many people who will tell you that you have to “beat it into submission” and it will soften slowly over time (read seasons of use) … but it will take a while. Hot washing and dryer balls in the dryer can help (just make sure you don’t use fabric softener to try to soften it faster because it can apparently interfere with its breathability).
I know that different types of linen will soften at their own speed but the quality of the linen, the weight, and the finishing can make a difference. It’s certainly not an area of expertise for me though and the retailer is probably the best source of information about how long it will take their particular linen to soften. I currently don’t own any linen sheets but I do really like them so it’s high up on my purchase list.
I talked to them today (Peter) and apparently Matt is on holidays but when I mentioned your post Peter was aware of the topper and it’s in the pipeline although he wasn’t sure if it had shipped. I called Matt first but as you mentioned his cell is not in service so I don’t know what is happening there.
Phoenix
Thank you Phoenix and DN.
We’re going on 6 or 7 weeks(I lost count) now since the original toppers and pillows were promised as restitution for the mattress errors. I negotiated the partial refund instead of the pillows after they had not shipped 2 weeks after they were originally promised. I sent both Peter and Matt an email and tried to call Matt over 2 weeks ago and have not received any replies. Apparently I should have negotiated a higher refund and just bought the items that were promised. I’m a patient man but every time I talk to Matt (who, I maintain, is a nice and knowledgeable guy and seems considerate to my concerns) there is a lack of follow-through on any promises made.
I purchased a Cozypure Pure Perfomance Lanoodles pillow and I really like the feel of it. I took out a lot the Lanoodles and made a second flatter pillow from it, but find that I am getting neck pain a lot during the night and in the morning when I awake. Since I am a back and side sleeper and since you sink into the bed a significant amount, I am trying to use the relatively flat pillow for back sleeping and the higher pillow for side sleeping with my arm under it. The side sleeping on the higher pillow is causing me back pain, however. I had a crappy polyester beaten down pillow prior to this, and while I didn’t like it very much, I had mostly alleviated my back pains and didn’t have neck pains. I am looking for any advice on this and was going to make sure my spine was straight when on my side.
Hi GrandMasterJ,
I certainly agree that you have been very patient.
I talked with Chris today (the other co-owner) and Matt is apparently out of the country and Chris said he would be back around Jan 9th. When I last talked with Peter about your topper (when I posted last) he told me that he had submitted the order through Chris (who does the actual ordering). Chris told me today that your order had been submitted to Latex International but didn’t have the details at hand. He said he would contact you today.
It frustrates me as well to see these kind of delays in customer service and/or lack of followup and IMO they should be more on top of following up with their commitments … especially when the ownership is involved. Their customer service is normally very good in “normal” situations when their customer service people are involved but for more unusual situations where the ownership becomes involved it still has a ways to go IMO.
Pillows can be tricky as you know and it’s not really possible to give advice at a distance that can be any more effective than your own personal experience or trial and error but based on your comments it seems that the thinner polyester pillow was working well in terms of alignment (even though it didn’t feel very good) so I would probably try adjusting the latex pillow to be closer to the thickness that was working well for you. Do things improve when you just use the thinner latex pillow?
Phoenix
Thank you, Phoenix. One of the original reasons for choosing Selectfoam was that I would have the backing of the Mattress Underground and its owner should things go wrong. I am disappointed that I had to invoke this amenity so many times but am thankful that someone is willing to help “get things moving.”
Chris did indeed contact me that same day to say that he would check with his latex supplier on Monday. He also provided his personal contact number and apologized for the incident. He called back Monday to inform me that the topper had shipped and should be here next week.
I haven’t adjusted the filling on the pillows further than what I previously did. I have been making a point to use the less-full pillow and “fluff” it up every night. I note, when used with a sleep aid like Lunesta that gives me 6 hours of uninterrupted sleep, that I wake without back and neck pains. I surmise that this may be due to the fact that I do not toss or change positions when using a sleep aid.
Hi GrandmasterJ,
[quote]Thank you, Phoenix. One of the original reasons for choosing Selectfoam was that I would have the backing of the Mattress Underground and its owner should things go wrong. I am disappointed that I had to invoke this amenity so many times but am thankful that someone is willing to help “get things moving.”
Chris did indeed contact me that same day to say that he would check with his latex supplier on Monday. He also provided his personal contact number and apologized for the incident. He called back Monday to inform me that the topper had shipped and should be here next week.[/quote]
I’m glad that I could “grease the wheels” a little as well and hopefully you will receive your topper “on time” and then let us know how it works for you.
The new topper may also affect the pillow that works best for you.
Thanks again for all your ongoing updates :).
Phoenix
Grandmaster J: How do you like the combo of Select Foam and Topper?
I apologize. This update is a long time coming.
I did receive the toppers from Matt finally and have rotated through them over the last few months. I also did purchase a full linen sheet set from Linoto which I will put in a separate thread.
The latex toppers in addition to the memory foam add buoyancy, however it does subtract from the effectiveness of the memory foam. I have perpetual back pain (stenosis - thoracic) and find that the toppers help with side sleeping, but the pure high density memory foam helps more with back sleeping. I’ve gone through the 2 toppers and back to the memory foam and returned to the 24ILD topper (Matt sent me both a 24ILD and 28ILD). I will comment that I feel like royalty in a 17" bed with latex topper and linen sheets. It’s very lush. Right now rotating between no topper and topper does not seem like a bad idea.
By the way, the toppers from Latex International do have a smell that lasts a long time. Mine still smell, although less strong than first arrival.
This is such a great thread. I have been contemplating purchasing the Grandis-HD for the past few weeks. I love the feel of the TempurPedic Grand Bed, but the price is a bit out of my range. I’m going through a divorce, and my ex will be taking the bed with him (thankfully.) We have a 6 year old TempurPedic that I have hated since day 1. I don’t remember the exact model, but at the time we purchased it, there were only 3 models to choose from, and I believe we bought the one that was the middle price point. This mattress has always been too firm for me, and I wake up several times throughout the night with aching hips and sleeping shoulders. I sleep on my side, so I know I need a softer surface. The Grand Bed seems to provide the perfect combination of support and softness, so I’m really hoping that the Grandis-HD represents the closest match at a better price point. Thank you for the extremely detailed review. It helps a lot.