Tried S/M/F/XF and this was OK, but I think it’s too soft
Back to S/F/M/XF and either the seasons are messing with my back or something changed but not as good as it was
S/XF/M/F is too firm
Any of these configs feels decent when I first lie down, it’s spending time that gets to me.
So I am soliciting advice on how best to zone it. Our leather furniture works pretty well for me. The filling is soft, but the leather seems to help give it a “skin” for added firmness on top?
I’m thinking the S/M/F/XF is probably best starting point. Might swap the XF and F around.
So then do I try to put something thin but firming between the S and M layers or do I try to put something above the S?
What material would I use? I can envision some sort of 3/8-3/4" thick “matt” of compressed/woven denim or wool. I do have a couple of milsurp Russian wool blankets that I could try folding into different thicknesses and sizes…
Again I do well on cheap inflatable provided I get the pressure right. I have both a portable and a Flexsteel Majestic Air sleeper sofa that work well for me, BUT I have never used these for extended periods.
You certainly wouldn’t be the first person where your needs and preferences change based on circumstances or seasons or who was more sensitive to smaller changes in layering and of course this can present particular challenges. When your pain or discomfort is in the lower back area and tends to happen with longer times spend on the mattress it’s usually related to an alignment issue.
If you find that you like a “skin” on top of your mattress that is firmer then it may be worth trying something similar such as a firmer cotton mattress pad on top of your mattress to approximate this although the materials in your furniture are likely much different from the layers in your mattress and every layer will effect every other layer to different degrees.
If you go in the direction of zoning then it may involve some trial and error because there are no formulas that can be used but the zoning suggestions in my earlier reply in post #11 here would be the place I would start. The key with zoning is to create the firmer and softer zones in the correct area of the body and adding “zoning” materials in between the higher layers would have more of an effect than adding them in between the deeper layers so the horizontal position of the zones and the part of your body they are underneath and the vertical position of the zones in terms of their depth in the mattress will all have an effect. I would tend to use the zoning materials under at least one layer and not on top. I would start with 1" layers of firmer polyfoam because it’s relatively inexpensive and can be cut to different widths to put underneath different areas of the body.
If you want to experiment with other materials that you have available then the materials you were mentioning such as folded towels or blankets placed in different positions would also be worth experimenting with to get a sense of their effect.
I used my Russian wool blanket between the S and M layers and folded into a Z pattern with “tails”. This gave me 3 layers in the center and then the tails gave me a transition. that went under my hips and towards my shoulders. It’s really about all I could do as the blanket is larger than necessary.
Night one was good, but pressure point soreness.
Night two not quite as good harder to get comfortable.
I think I need to either run single ply between same layers or shift it down under the M layer. I’m thinking the latter is my best choice.
I’m guessing you are starting with center third zoning ideas rather than more directly targeting the 5" or so under the recessed lumbar curve of the body (in between the bottom of the rib cage and the upper part of the pelvis). One is more focused on pelvic tilt (which is the biggest factor in the curve of the spine) while the other more directly supports the inward curve of the spine.
From your feedback it sounds like you would do better with the zoning a little deeper (as you recognized) so that you can sink in a little more before the zoning comes into play. You may need to sink in beyond the top comfort layer before “hitting” the effect of the zoned section. I would also keep in mind that the wool will have a different effect from a foam layer but it will certainly be helpful as a guideline in pointing you in the right direction even if it isn’t perfect.
I used my Russian wool blanket between the S and M layers and folded into a Z pattern with “tails”. This gave me 3 layers in the center and then the tails gave me a transition. that went under my hips and towards my shoulders. It’s really about all I could do as the blanket is larger than necessary.
Night one was good, but pressure point soreness.
Night two not quite as good harder to get comfortable.
I think I need to either run single ply between same layers or shift it down under the M layer. I’m thinking the latter is my best choice.
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My opinion/food for thought:
S/M/… will suit your upper body, but your lower back will suffer as before. The problem here is that you are burying your base and support under 6" of S/M foam.
Zone inserts will feel different and seem to help, but you will feel them and they will tend to eventually change shape and fail, leading to discomfort.
Assuming you have a solid base/platform, try S/XF or S/F/XF or S/XF/F and zip the cover up loose, or better, try S:M/XF with the :zone under your navel and the excess material hanging off the bed. The latter will give you surface softness, shoulder plunge for alignment, and firm support.
The problem with S, M, F, XF is what to do with too much foam!
I’m going to try something like this too, at some point. When you say “firmer polyfoam”, is that just the foam I can buy at the fabric store, or is it more like special mattress foam that comes from a mattress supplier?
If it’s polyfoam it would be the same type of material from either source. The quality/durability depends on its density and the firmness would be measured in ILD or IFD.
You can buy it from a fabric shop or foam shop in most areas of the country but a foam shop may have more choices available and also have higher quality polyfoam available (again though you can confirm this by knowing the density).
With the limitations of materials on hand being my blanket, I couldn’t do a narrow lumbar support unless I were to roll it up and do a 16 layer heap. I do think I need to work on a way to get the narrow band supported.
FYI my pickups have GM leather bucket seats and I run the lumbar at full extension. At times I feel I could use even a bit more.
I do plan to shift this same setup down a layer and probably bring up the XF layer as “sleeping” suggested. The problem here is I am making 2 changes rather than one and it’s always best to make changes one at a time…
I’ll see about unzipping, the cover, but I already kind of dislike the split layer setup and unzipping might make this worse. Tempted to order a stretch top mattress bag and a full layer S foam.
I tried firmer layers beneath the S layer and the F was OK to questionable, the S/XF too stiff. S/M was probably the best feeling except for hip alignment.
I think what I am dealing with here is 6’1" on a thin frame with a concentration in the middle so I exert a relatively high amount of pounds per square inch.
Admittedly I did not “need” the 13000 thickness, but what sent me in this direction was the ability to have extra layers to fine tune better.
Toss the cover top aside and try S:M/XF/F on your side of the bed. You’ll want the 3" of S under your upper body for surface comfort (pressure relief) and to allow your shoulders to settle/align. The 3" of M will begin supporting your hips/isolate you from reaching the XF too soon, and your lower body will be less sensitive to the firmer M surface. The XF will be near maximum possible support. The F beneath it will be more like F+ in the bottom position due to pre-compression and the XF load distributing membrane above it. You won’t want to make the S:M components any firmer since that will likely hurt (poor pressure relief), so the only way to get more hip support is to change the F to XF (S:M/XF/XF), or remove it completely (S:M/XF).
Lay down and measure your height-head-to-navel" + 2/3 (80" mattress - your height") to size the upper body :zone.
I’m starting to see the logic behind altering the cover. I did like the PLB nutrition where the stretch cover puts you right on the foam. I do believe the PLB had the Med over Soft upper.
My latest setup is
S/M/XF/F
Cover zipped up
I put my wool blanket between the M and XF layers and I can tell where my lumbar (strip) is located. It’s OK, but still makes my lower back sore. Feels more like a pressure point sore.
I find myself sleeping on my side more as of late which typically does not work for me. I tend to run a bit cool body temp so I get warm and sweaty easily. I’m definitely not a spooner and when I lay on my side I tend to heat up wherever my skin contacts more skin like between the legs.
It’s interesting to watch your experimentation. You are amazingly sensitive to smaller changes in your mattress so you are a good testing ground.
I’m assuming that this was still the Z folded blanket under the hips rather than under the recessed lumbar curve. I can’t help but suspect that your best “final result” may be a combination that includes a firmer/thicker strip under the lumbar curve itself (from the top of the pelvis to about 2" above your belly button just under the rib cage) but of course your own experience will be the ultimate test.
You certainly have patience … and I’m grateful for and interested in your feedback along the way.
The latest zoning is still the Z pattern, but narrowed up under the lumbar. I can move up or down to vary where it ramps down. The rest of the blanket is spread in a single layer.
I guess it’s kind of a princess and the pea kind of deal for me…
If I was working on some zoning experiments I would consider buying a layer of polyfoam that I could cut to different widths and then try this in between the layers in the different zones. Foam will have more resilience and do a better job of springing back and filling in gaps than a blanket (which has no resilience) and blend in more with the feel and performance of the latex in your mattress. It would probably be a more realistic test although the blanket can provide a “pointer”. You can cut the foam using an electric knife or with thinner layers an exacto knife or other sharp knife would work as well.
This worked well overall, but bothered me to sleep on my back. Just did not feel right. The blanket was spread single layer up and down from middle zone and tripled up in narrow band beneath lumbar. I had no pain nor pressure points like this, but it was just not “right” when on my back. I found that I could side sleep w/o pressure points which is a big improvement.
S/M/XF/F no zoning
This is my present setup and I have been getting sore back. I guess it’s a lack of support in the lumbar and hips area. Feels comfortable, but time catches up. I find my back giving grief during the day as well. Not acute pain, just the dull nag. I hope it’s not just the colder weather catching up.
So “Sleeping” commented about what to do with all that foam? I’m beginning to see the point that I may have an issue where I need a more firm core. Be it through less foam or increased density.
Contemplating:
run my wool blanket under the XF layer maybe in a doubled up fashion to help firm up overall feel
try a chunk of firm 1" poly foam as suggested by Phoenix
buy a layer of XF from sleepez and end up with an extra layer of F laying around.
That’s encouraging and I suspect that some variation of lumbar zoning under the small of your back will end up being the most suitable option for you.
Wool is not as resilient as foam so it would create some extra firmness in the zoned areas by reducing compression but wouldn’t be as resilient as a foam zoning layer (which may affect “feel”) but it seems that it is at least “pointing” in the right direction.
I slept on the S/M/XF/F setup for a while. Pretty darn close, but lacked just a bit of middle support.
Talked to Shawn at SleepEZ and he suggested that I try running as a 3 layer. S/M/XF seems OK initially, but is too firm and gives pressure points when side sleeping. I plan to swap out the XF for the F that I have set aside.
I think that the answer lies in zoning for me, but I must say that there is quite a difference in a 3 layer vs 4 layer setup. The 3 layer setup is pretty good support wise. I think the 4 layer is better for comfort, BUT needs firming in the middle zone.
