Shooting at a moving target?

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
1

So I’ve tried various configurations with my 100% blended talalay setup. I have 4 ea 3" layers. (see my SleepEZ 13000 review) and have been quite happy with the bed especially the quick reconfiguration capabilities.

I was a believer in Med over soft over firm, but in time started to get pain. I tried going the former route med over med over firm and this was the wrong direction so I went back to med over soft. This works pretty well, but in the morning when I wake up I have pain in my lower back (back sleeper) and need time to loosen it up.

Since the firmer route was clearly not the way I switched to soft over med and this was great the first couple of nights. Now I have minor pain that is causing difficulty sleeping. It’s not the sharp low back pain like I get with the other configs, it’s more of a nagging pain.

So do I give it a few more days (been almost a week now) and hope this is just muscle pain that I can work through?

Seems I’m almost out of options with the exception of trying soft/soft Med route and at 6’1 and 215# and a middle bias I have my doubts that I should even be directly on a soft ILD. Wondering about adding a 1/2" layer of some sort of semi stiff wool matting above the latex.

2

Hi TD-Max,

Pain or discomfort that you feel more in the morning tends to be connected to alignment issues which usually points to relatively firmer support under the pelvic area (as you probably know).

Where is this pain? It may also be worth considering soft over firm (The soft providing good pressure relief and the firm “stopping” your pelvis from sinking down too far past the comfort layer a little more quickly than the medium). The soft over medium seems to be “relatively” less (minor vs sharp) and may indicate you are heading in the right direction but need a little more firmness under the soft.

I see no inherent problem in using soft ILD in the top layer. Sometimes the key with alignment issues is the thickness of the top layer (how far your heavier areas can “travel” before they “reach” the firmer support layers) and in the firmness of the layers below them (how quickly they apply the “brakes” to sinking down further in your pelvis).

The wool (probably thicker would be more suitable if you go in this direction) would certainly reduce the compression of the latex layers below it but would also reduce the “support” in the arch of your back (wool is less resilient than latex). The benefit of this would depend on whether you need to “stop” the pelvis faster (which it would do because it would increase the surface area that was compressing the latex) or if you need firmer support under the more recessed areas of your body to “compensate” for more weight in the middle.

As an experiment to see how it affects you it may be worthwhile trying a 1" layer of firmer polyfoam (which generally costs little) cut to a length of about 1/3 the length of your mattress and adding it in the middle in between the deeper layers (such as in between layer 2 and layer 3) to see if this form of “zoning” helps or provides a pointer to what may be happening.

I would also be curious about what you experienced with 2 medium layers on top over firm and why you thought it was “heading in the wrong direction” (this also seems like a potential solution that would reduce the amount your pelvis is sinking in).

I think the first one I would try is soft over firm.

Phoenix

3

[quote=“TD-Max” post=20033]So I’ve tried various configurations with my 100% blended talalay setup. I have 4 ea 3" layers. (see my SleepEZ 13000 review) and have been quite happy with the bed especially the quick reconfiguration capabilities.

I was a believer in Med over soft over firm, but in time started to get pain. I tried going the former route med over med over firm and this was the wrong direction so I went back to med over soft. This works pretty well, but in the morning when I wake up I have pain in my lower back (back sleeper) and need time to loosen it up.

Since the firmer route was clearly not the way I switched to soft over med and this was great the first couple of nights. Now I have minor pain that is causing difficulty sleeping. It’s not the sharp low back pain like I get with the other configs, it’s more of a nagging pain.

So do I give it a few more days (been almost a week now) and hope this is just muscle pain that I can work through?

Seems I’m almost out of options with the exception of trying soft/soft Med route and at 6’1 and 215# and a middle bias I have my doubts that I should even be directly on a soft ILD. Wondering about adding a 1/2" layer of some sort of semi stiff wool matting above the latex.[/quote]

Have you tried zoning the top?:

  1. Make sure it’s on a solid platform so that there is no sag; and with no head/foot boards so that layers can lay over the edge.
  2. Pull the cover top off if it does not stretch or is otherwise too taut such that it interferes with contouring or sinking in.
  3. Put the firmest layer on the bottom and the next firmest on top of that for a logically progressive support core layer.
  4. Put the softest layer over the upper body zone from your navel up.
  5. Put the next softest layer over the lower body zone.

This would give you a 3-layer build with soft comfort under your upper body and medium comfort under your lower body:

s:m
f
xf

If this improves the spinal alignment pain, you could consider going forward with 2-zoning the comfort and transition support layers for your height and weight to perfect the spinal alignment and maximize the pressure relief, particularly for the upper body zone. Something like this:

3" 19:28 ILD comfort layer (zone seam at navel)
3" 28:36 ILD transition support layer (zone seam offset 5" toward feet )
3" or 6" 40 ILD support layer

The height of the upper body zone: height head-to-navel + 2/3 (80" mattress - 73" height)" (round to nearest inch)

This should improve spinal alignment and related lower back pain IF the lower body zone is firm enough for your weight, and the upper body zone is relatively softer to enable sinking in to achieve neutral spinal alignment.

This will not improve pressure relief and related pain if your existing layers yield a comfort or transition support layer that is too firm for your weight.

As I see it, the typical semi-custom Latex mattress has got you covered for pressure relief i.e. don’t bother shuffling firmness up and down. What’s missing is shoulder-hip spinal balance which requires a relative difference in cradle firmness from upper body to lower body, not from top of mattress to bottom of mattress.

Hope this helps.

zzz

4

Good advice from both and I’m torn. I think I need to keep my hips supported just a bit more.

What I can say is this: All previous setups felt excellent and supportive, but had me hurting when I woke up. Hurting like inflamed/pinched disk hurt to a point where it was difficult if not impossible to bend in the morning. I ended up siting in her Lazyboy for a bit as it has a huge lumbar bulge and after a sit and things settled down I might be able to move decent without being “grabbed” by the lower back. On particularly bad days it was ibuprofen time.

With the soft layer on top, I can get up and function pretty well. I just have a bit of general discomfort that wakes me. It feels like more of a muscular or "sub surface type pain than a core pain. Definite huge improvement.

So the question now is do I shift the firm upwards or try zoning? When I set this latex unit up I went with a full layer of medium intending it to remain on top. I think I can move this full layer down without causing too much disruption as I think her layer 3 is a medium as well. I guess I already have the layers to swap so that’s the place to start.

Background:

I tell ya when shopping the S brands I was continually drawn to the more deluxe Stearns models. Sealy never cut it for me, but the Stearns in the $2600 range (I think it was Jaclyn) was instantly AHHH. It had a lot of soft up top and I could feel the core supporting me. I told myself that soft was not the answer, but maybe it is?

In the end I knew the S brands would not hold up although I did get my warranty approved and have a brand new Stearns Felisha standing in the basement. This will become a guest bed sooner or later and an alternative for me if I need to change things up.

I am SO glad I went to a zip open model .

5

Hi TD-Max,

If it’s possible with your setup I would start with the S/F top two layers (with the single medium layer under that) because based on your feedback it probably has the highest odds of success. This would provide you with the softer top layers that “fill in” the gaps the best but has firmer support directly underneath it as well to “stop” the pelvis faster than a softer second layer. Once you have tried this, then more complex zoning options are still a possibility if they are necessary. Zoning is needed less often with latex because of its high compression modulus where even softer layers get firmer more rapidly than other materials as you compress them more deeply but every body is different and as you know what works well for most may not work as well for any specific person.

I’m glad you went with a component system as well and the ability to re-arrange is certainly part of its value. ln effect you have the chance to sleep on the equivalent of many different mattresses all wrapped up into one :slight_smile:

Let us know how it goes.

Phoenix

6

If you lower your upper body zone by removing a cover/pad that does not stretch and/or by installing less firm comfort and transition support layer Latex in that zone, your hips will become relatively higher as if having a bit more support. And you will have only added softness where you need and want it most.

zzz

7

Soft over firm helped with the hips, but still not there yet.

The cover is Sleepez’s wool top and doesn’t really stretch. It zips all the way open, but does not come off.

On the plus side, while I wake with a bit of discomfort, I have yet to wake with my lower back “caught”

8

[quote=“TD-Max” post=20400]Soft over firm helped with the hips, but still not there yet.

The cover is Sleepez’s wool top and doesn’t really stretch. It zips all the way open, but does not come off.

On the plus side, while I wake with a bit of discomfort, I have yet to wake with my lower back “caught”
[/quote]

Unzipping it can help the upper body settle a touch, if it’s tight. You may then notice a small improvement at the hips.

zzz

9

Hi TD-Max,

Just to bring some of the past information up to date (to save me searching for it in past posts) …

Your “vital statistics” are …

I’m 6’1" and 220# I carry a good bit around the middle. I am a back sleeper and when things are going good I stay in one spot which may be part of why I am hard on mattresses.

The layering in your mattress is …

Medium not split
soft-soft split
med-firm split
firm-ex firm split

And the last configuration you tried (and your current “best” configuration so far on your side after trying many including dominating layers with firmer over softer layers) from top to bottom is …

Soft/Firm/Medium/X-Firm.

The current “issue” that you are trying to resolve is that your hips are still sinking down too deeply (is this correct?)

I should also clarify what you mean by “not quite there yet” and the specific type of discomfort you are having. Are there actual symptoms involved in specific areas of your body when you go to sleep, during the night, or when you wake up, or is it more of a “feeling” or subjective preference you are trying to correct that is more about your preferences than actual or specific symptoms (or a combination of both).

What I’m trying to determine is whether your pelvis needs to be “held up” a little more than it currently is or whether there are other areas that need more support (such as the small of your back) and/or the specific type of changes that may be helpful.

Before I make more suggestions (or share some other ideas) it would probably be a good idea to make sure we are on the same page :slight_smile:

Phoenix

10

You are correct with the S/F/M/XF config.

This helped the sinking of my pelvis.

What I think I am getting is a pressure related nagging ache in the middle of my back. It’s just so hard to say.

11

Hi TD-Max,

Thanks for the clarification.

There are 3 “critical” areas or zones of a mattress that contribute the most to alignment. These are under the shoulders (mostly for side sleepers), under the recessed part of the lumbar spine (small of your back when you are on your back or waist if you are on your side), and under the hips/pelvis.

When your pelvis sinks too far into the mattress when you are on your back … it “tilts” which affects the natural alignment of lumbar curve. If the firmness under the pelvis and lumbar curve is suitable … controlling pelvic tilt will usually also control the natural alignment of the lumbar spine.

In some cases however … when there is more weight in the middle or for people who have a more curved spine or where the differential between the width of their hips and waist (usually in women) or between their shoulders and waist (usually in men) then even with firmer layers under the pelvis which controls the tilt it can be beneficial to have a slight increased firmness (or thickness) under the lumbar curve as well to prevent it from “sagging”. In most cases … a material like latex which has a high compression modulus (gets firmer more quickly with deeper compression) becomes firm enough with more shallow compression under the lumbar curve to provide the “secondary support” which helps maintain the alignment of the lumbar spine. In a few cases though, some extra firmness (relative to the pelvic area) under this area may be helpful for some people which is where zoning can be helpful.

The shoulders are lighter and typically wider so side sleepers tend to need thicker layers of softer materials so the shoulders are “allowed” to sink in enough for the torso to take up the weight of the upper body and relieve shoulder pressure as well as make sure the upper spine is in alignment. High quality materials such as latex get firmer with deeper compression so they have an inherent ability to be firmer or softer where needed depending on the amount of compression but zoning can add to the ability of a mattress to be firmer where it’s needed and softer where it’s needed.

In the case of your mattress and circumstances … the firmest support layers that maintained the soft upper layer would be (from top to bottom) X-Firm/Firm/Medium. This may be worth a try (you would have maximum control of pelvic tilt) before you consider zoning. It may also be useful to try the medium on top over X-Firm/Firm/Soft because this would be the firmest support layering possible with a medium layer on top. Removing the soft layer from the bottom and just having 3 layers as a test (with a loose cover in this case) would be slightly firmer yet but by the time the compression forces reach the bottom layer they are very spread out and much of them have been absorbed and dissipated by the mattress.

If one of these combinations still doesn’t bring you close enough your ideal … then it may be worthwhile to consider testing a simple zoning solution.

As a test case to “test” the theory … I would start with a layer of firm 1" polyfoam (around high 30’s or low 40’s ILD) cut to a length that you could add it under one of the layers in the middle third of the mattress. This could go under the first, second, or third layer depending on how much of a firming effect you wanted under the pelvis (deeper would have less firming effect). Other options that can test some zoning combinations would be felted carpet underlay or folded blankets (which would provide lighter zoning) or even wood strips under the mattress in targeted areas (you can see an example here).

If it turned out that it wasn’t pelvic tilt that was the issue but lumbar sagging … then you could cut this layer in half (or slightly less) and place it under the lumbar curve itself (not under both the pelvis and the lumbar curve) to improve the direct support under this part of the spine.

If one of these zoning solutions was necessary and worked for you … then depending on how you feel about having a thin layer of polyfoam in your mattress you could either keep it or replace it with an inch of X-Firm latex cut to the same size.

There is also more information about zoning in this article and in post #2 here and in post #7 here

Phoenix

12

I’ve always kind of felt that I need 4+ inches of pressure relief or comfort layer. This also seems to mesh with a little measuring that I did. Standing up relatively straight, backed up to a wall my shoulders touch first, with about an inch or so between my butt and the wall, and a solid 4" between lower back and the wall.

I think this is telling me that like both of you have suggested above, I need to zone my setup. I think I need to soften the upper and lower zones so that I can get “into” the mattress a bit more rather than being “on” it. I like the initial feel of being “on” rather than “in” but can’t seem to take the full night of this.

Looking back it was the Stearns Marilyn or Marlyn as Mattress Firm lists it. This is quite a soft mattress, but instant reaction was Ahhhh. The comfort layers are very thick on this one but then it has the thick Caress Flex foam right above the coild to help with the transition.

Another point I’ll make is that I seem to do quite well on cheap air/inflatable where I sleep more or less directly on the chamber. Both the portable type and the Majestic Air setup in the Flexsteel sleeper at the cabin work well provided I get the pressure correct.

13

Hi TD-Max,

I would be very cautious with these types of specific “technical” assessments because there are many variables involved and the thickness of your top layer is not the only factor in the depth of your pressure relieving cradle. It’s the depth of your pressure relieving cradle which is important for both pressure relief and “filling in the gaps” of your sleeping profile not so much the specific thickness of the top layer. All the layers in a mattress interact together simultaneously and while the top layer will compress relatively more than the deeper layers (if they are softer) … they are not the only layer which contributes to your “comfort layers”. Even a single 6" core has a “comfort layer” (although in this case it’s not a specific layer) which is the depth of your pressure relieving cradle rather than the thickness of a specific softer layer on top.

It is usually much more accurate to use your actual experience and “symptoms” and think in terms of “allowing” certain parts of the body to sink in more or “stopping” certain parts of the body from sinking down too much and then “translating” your actual experience and symptoms it into potential solutions specific to the area you are working with than it is to think in terms of a specific layer thickness.

It would be very uncommon that you are not sinking in “enough” with your pelvis to allow for firm contact with the lumbar curve and it’s much more likely that something needs to be “held up” more than it needs to be “allowed”. Sinking in deeper with your pelvis may allow for firmer support (more compressed foam) under the arch of your back (which in some cases can be helpful) but it will also “allow” your pelvis to sink in deeper and “tilt” more as well. It’s the “relative” firmness of the different areas of the mattress underneath the different parts of your body that is most important. In most cases a foam material like latex that has a good compression modulus can accommodate both because of its ability to get firmer faster as you sink in deeper.

Having said that … a 4" recess in your lumbar curve is larger than most and that in combination with your “middle weight” may lead to the “sagging” of your spine in the middle (rather than pelvis tilting) which may be best supported by specific zoning rather than a thicker comfort layer because with your body type compression modulus may not be enough by itself to provide the relative difference in support you may need under the lumbar curve compared to the pelvis. With a larger lumbar curve then the sinking of your pelvis may not create enough firmness under the lumbar curve because the pelvis has farther to “travel” before the lumbar curve makes firm contact with the mattress.

I would work sequentially by first testing the firmest support layers possible (with both soft and medium on top) to help “rule out” pelvic tilting as the most likely cause of any symptoms and then move into zoning solutions.

Phoenix

14

My thoughts are that the soft over Medium was possibly the best BUT it let my butt in too deep. Soft over firm cured this, but I get a sense that my upper and lower are a bit firm.

Today was different though so I plan to give it another night. I think that a lot of my nagging ache is muscular from the change in sleeping posture. The muscles in my back tend to be quite tight from running in protect mode.

I do think that big picture I’ll need to zone up the middle a bit.

15

Hi TD-Max,

I think it’s a good idea to give each combination at least a few days (and preferably a week or so) to remove any variables that may be unique to a single day or two and also to give your body time to “catch up” to each chance.

This will tend to be a little more reliable and provide for more accurate assessments that are more predictive of your longer term experience.

Phoenix

16

Update:

Latest config is S/F/M/XF

This really is about the best it has been for my back. I do feel like I could use some additional softness in the upper and lower sections though. I guess my feet don’t really much care what is under them they don’t sink in much.

I am contemplating going back to the S/M setup but shifting the XF layer up next in line. The S/M was confortable overall, but I felt my hips needed more support.

If this change does not work I’ll look at zoning. Keep the S on top and make the middle med-firm-med.

17

Hi TD-Max,

Thanks for the update :slight_smile:

[quote]I am contemplating going back to the S/M setup but shifting the XF layer up next in line. The S/M was confortable overall, but I felt my hips needed more support.

If this change does not work I’ll look at zoning. Keep the S on top and make the middle med-firm-med. [/quote]

Once you have tried the S/M/XF/F (which is good logic by the way) then sectional zoning (along the lines of post #11 earlier in the thread) may help accommodate either heavier pelvic weight distribution or a need for more direct zoning under the lumbar curve itself to accommodate greater weight there or a larger than usual lumbar curve.

Thanks again for the ongoing updates. It seems that you are fairly close but that you are also quite sensitive to smaller design changes which of course makes the “perfect” design more difficult.

Phoenix

18

Made the change today. We’ll see how it goes. Back is starting to nag me a bit today but hopefully it straightens out.

One thing I cannot over emphasize is that shopping for a mattress in jeans is NOT the way to do it. Every time I try to do a quick test of my changes I am reminded of this. We always use a mattress pad and this also makes a significant difference.

19

The S/M/XF/F did not work. Too soft in the lower back.

Back to S/F/M/XF for now

I have a suspicion that zoning the second layer down to M with F center might be the answer, but I’m thinking I may just stop here for now.

20

Hi TD-Max,

Thanks for the update :slight_smile:

It seems to me that your current layering is the best possible without zoning so if the time comes that you try any zoning solutions I’d be interested in your feedback as well. Sometimes zoning can help when nothing else can especially with certain body types that are more difficult to “fit” with unzoned layers even with the high compression modulus of latex.

Phoenix