You are welcome! I find it funny really that this is something I enjoy doing in my spare time 
Hi Goonieguy,
That is really funny, don’t worry I won’t tell anyone…oh wait …is this a public forum? This is why we love avatar names on forums!!!
Phoenix
I apologize if this isn’t the right way to post my questions, but I didn’t see a way to post a new topic and this topic seemed to closely match what I’m asking.
I’ve slowly been building my own latex mattress and I’m looking for (I think) a recommendation for a base layer firmness. I’m a 5’10" 160 lbs side sleeper. I currently have:
2" 14 ILD Talalay (still able to be returned)
3" 20 ILD Dunlop
3" 30 ILD Dunlop (still able to be returned)
When I place this setup directly on my foundation, I think I can feel the metal bars of the foundation and they create a pressure point on my hips. This seems to be worse in the center of the bed, so I’m wondering if one of my latex layers is softer/more worn in the center.
I’ve also used this setup on top of a flipped over Leesa mattress (polyfoam base on top), which seems to be lacking in support. Again, this is worse in the center of the bed. Until last night, I thought this was due to the Leesa, but now I’m leaning toward the 20 ILD Dunlop being worn out after only a year of use, but I still need to test this some more.
I’m unable to sleep on the latex+foundation setup (I tried this last night) and the setup with the Leesa mattress seems to be lacking in support. I think I need an additional base layer to replace the Leesa. Would another 3" 30 ILD Dunlop topper be a good choice or should I get something firmer? How would the firmness of a 38 or 44 ILD topper compare to the firmness of the foundation itself?
A sales rep from one of the MU partners recommended I just add an other 3" soft layer to my current setup, but that didn’t sound right to me. Would anyone else second this advice?
If it helps, here’s the progression of how I’ve been finding a mattress:
Leesa - far too firm
Leesa + 20 ILD Dunlop - much better, but still a little too firm
Leesa + 20 ILD Dunlop + 14 ILD Talalay - something seems off here, but not sure what. Possibly not enough support.
Leesa + 20 ILD Dunlop + 14 ILD Talalay + 30 ILD Dunlop - again, I think it’s not supportive enough
Leesa + 20 ILD Dunlop + 30 ILD Dunlop - I think a bit too firm
20 ILD Dunlop + 14 ILD Talalay + 30 ILD Dunlop - very uncomfortable - i can feel the foundation under my hips
Thanks!
hey theshrewdfool,
Welcome to the mattress forum:).
Thanks for the great post, and the detailed information of the process you have used so far. Well done.
Just a couple of questions, maybe you mentioned it, how long have you had the Leesa? Which foundation did you get? Which Leesa platform bed are you referencing? Is the latex covered or foam only, what is the fabric you use, or is it just three toppers over the Leesa? And three over the foundation? Then the mattress pad? or sheets? What size mattress? Is the latex a blend, or 100% natural? The Dunlop latex from where? Natural or Blended?
Thanks for the post, I have some thoughts and probably some questions?
Plus soft ild’s have to be above firmer, generally speaking, 14 ild has to be the very top or send it back for 19ild, it’s useless if you don’t use it on top. But let me know the other info, as it affects the feel of your set up, all these parts.
Thanks,
Sensei
I’ve had the Leesa for 3.5 years (queen size, and there was only one type available when I ordered it). I purchased it after suffering an injury and being in a lot of pain, and thinking my saggy Sealy wasn’t helping. I fell for all the marketing about it being the best bed in a box, but it never became comfortable for me. The pain from the injury (mostly SI joint) became much less severe/consistent a few months after I added the 20 ILD 3" Dunlop topper sometime last year.
I opened the Leesa up a couple of weeks ago and flipped around the interior mattress components so the support Polyfoam layer is on top. I thought that if some of the lack of support I felt was due to wear on the Leesa comfort layers, this might help.
I have a Zinus foundation with 3" spacing between slats (Amazon.com). Until May of last year, I had it on the foundation that came with my old Sealy mattress, which did not have 3" spacing. I have it on a frame that came with the Sealy mattress I bought in 2008.
The only thing covering the latex right now is a hypoallergenic protector and my sheets, so the latex is not fully enclosed. I plan to buy a stretch mattress cover when I’ve finalized all my layer choices. I’ve just been putting the toppers right on top of the Leesa mattress, and last night, right on top of the foundation. Would a wooden board be necessary, or is the 3" slat spacing good enough? Does that 3" spacing rule apply even for the narrow steel beams in the foundation I linked, or is that more for wider slats?
The 3" 20 ILD Dunlop was purchased last year on Amazon (I think it’s from sleeponlatex and all natural). The 2" 14 ILD is blended Talalay and was purchased 3.5 weeks ago from Mayer Bedding and the 3" 30 ILD Natural Dunlop was purchased from SleepOnLatex 2 weeks ago (with a TMU discount code).
I have been using the 14 ILD topper as the very top layer. I did think of another question regarding the 2 Dunlop layers: how different should 20 ILD and 30 ILD feel when compressed between your fingers and thumb or between two palms? I feel very little difference. SleepOnLatex did confirm for me that the new topper I have is indeed a medium firmness (it had Q3M labels on the box and plastic wrap). Unfortunately, I don’t have any of the packaging for the year old topper available. Is the difference only really noticeable when laying on it? The 14 ILD Talalay feels very different from the other two layers.
Hey theshrewdfool,
Wow, awesome information, thank you for adding the detail. It helps a lot.
Noted on the original Leesa, I totally understand…if you only knew about TMU then :). Not surprised with the improvement of the Leesa with a 3" topper, plus much better pressure relief needed with pain.
This makes perfect sense, you never know, but best to build up some layers on top of the foam. You may end up buying a block of 1.8- 2.0lb polyfoam at some time. There are some decent online foam companies that can have this.
It’s perfectly fine to have the latex like this, it helps me to understand more about the feel of the mattress. As we reference the 3" spacing, most of the time it is based around wood foundations. It is especially an issue with all latex mattress. The wooden board would be ok, but it does have some complaints about retaining moisture, not breathable. Still, not a bad idea to see if it helps, but it will firm up the overall feel of the mattress noticeably when you add the wooden board.
I like the Zinus products, I own two of them myself, and if you end up polyfoam base, with latex layers, it will be ok. But the thinner metal bars, it makes me think the 3" spacing is not as applicable on this product. Just my instinct. If you do more latex…more weight, then you may want a 1-2" layer of polyfoam to work as a stabilizing base. But for your trials…it will work fine.
The latex is an interesting question, technically speaking, you should be able to lay your hand on it and tell the difference between 20 and 30 ILD. Hand, fingers, etc., sitting on it. Its hard to weigh toppers but it “seems” like they are very similar…which is still ok.
Dunlop and Talalay aren’t directly comparable in terms of firmness using only ILD numbers because there are several factors that can affect how soft or firm a mattress (or an individual layer) feels besides just the ILD of the material (see post #4 here ) and Dunlop and Talalay that are the same thickness and ILD won’t feel the same in terms of their firmness for most people because they have a different response curve and compression modulus (how quickly a material becomes firmer as you sink into it more deeply). There is more about the difference between Dunlop and Talalay in post #7 here.
The ILD of different materials or different types and blends of latex also aren’t always directly comparable to each other (see post #6 here ) partly because ILD can be measured in different ways and partly because ILD isn’t the only factor that affects the softness or firmness of a material so again using the ILD or other specifications of a particular layer or combination of layers as a reliable indication of how any mattress will “feel” or how firm it will feel to you compared to another mattress with a different combination of layers can sometimes be more misleading than helpful.
It is hard for me to say, the fact is that latex is not the “exact same” feel throughout the core, and with Dunlop process latex, latex liquid is extruded into a 6" height queen size mold, and then heat is added, and the vulcanization begins immediately. So depending on the specific company, the “center” of the core can be the last part of the piece to fully cure…and if some pieces are sold not fully cure, sometimes latex can soften / breakdown in the center. I have no idea without looking at the latex, but the SOL latex I know is top quality, the 20ild…you are a little less sure about.
Can you feel the difference in the center of the latex topper with your hand? Also, you can put an object…like a bowling ball (or another object), and see if it sinks more for either topper and for the center of the topper…if that is something you would want to try…this is poor mans ild test :).
Thanks, let me know if I missed anything.
Sensei
Are there any memory foam mattresses that meet the 4 PCF memory foam density and 1.8 PCF memory foam density for below $900?
It seems it’s really difficult to find in 2019.
I have reached out to many companies on the list and the only ones that still seem to meet the requirements are Zotto and Silk & Snow. I am interested in Zotto but it is at the max end of my budget and apparently tends to sleep softer. I am hoping for a firmer memory foam.
I was really hopeful on Performasleep but even they have bumped down to 3 PCF memory foam in the 2nd layer. Same with Novosbed that no longer offers their 5 PCF memory foam.
Does anyone have any other suggestions? Why are mattresses moving towards a lower density and hiding their specs?
Hi! I’m looking for more information/reviews about the Bedgear M3 mattress. In theory, it sounds like a great way for my wife and I to agree on a mattress even though we disagree about ideal firmness, but it’s so new that I wasn’t sure it was worth the risk. (We did try it at our local Macy’s.) I can only find a few online reviews and I’m a bit skeptical whether they’ve been curated to make the mattress seem better. Any thoughts/experiences?
(Apologies if this is the wrong thread for this. Moderators, please feel free to move it if there’s a more appropriate place.)
Hi minah,
Welcome to the Mattress Underground Forum :).
I am sorry you are having difficulty finding the right combination of 1.8lb and 4.0lb memory foam. I assume you are looking for a queen size mattress? These companies are moving to lower density products mainly for cost reasons, they hope to de-spec the mattress and still keep it at a similar price, they also want to not communicate these changes as they know consumers will call them on it in forums like these.
A $900 queen with very good durability is actually a difficult product to find, as normal poly foam costs have risen in the past 3-4 years.
Here is a thread with information about Zotto Sleep. I also think you should look at our trusted members as they have more transparency with these companies.
I know that that Ghostbed, as you can see on the Ghostbed TMU page has 2.0lb foam for the base and they use 4lb memory foam as a comfort layer in two of their three mattresses.
Thank you and let us know if you have more questions.
Sensei
Hi Endersgame,
Welcome to our mattress forum :). No worries about the post, I moved it to its own thread, as it will be good to gather info here.
The M3 is still very new as it was only introduced in April 2019. As I peruse their website, I am seeing the same thing you are, by the photo it seems like they use different coils firmnesses as the base, and you can order 4 different firmnesses and one can do this for each side. Then its comfort layer and then cover…breathable, air flow, etc, etc.
So what are the specifications of these coils? Comfort layers? I click on the Certifications and Specifications and this is all I see:
[quote]CERTIFICATIONS
All foams are CertiPUR-US® certified:
○ Made with safe materials (no heavy metals, no formaldehyde)
○ No harmful odors or emissions
○ Made without phthalates regulated by the Consumer Product Safety Commission[/quote]
I see from the photos that the comfort layer is micro coils in the middle and foam on each side of the micro-coils, but it is important to know what these are. Have you asked Bedgear? Or asked the retailer?
We at TMU would have a hard time seeing if there are any weak links without this information. Let us know if you find out any more spec from them.
Thanks,
Sensei
Hi Sensei! Yes, sorry I forgot to mention it’s a Queen size.
Thank you for helping me out. It’s a shame that prices have risen and transparency has gone down the drain.
I was very interested in Ghostbed, but I ended up not liking how bouncy latex feels when I tried a few latex beds (which I saw Ghostbed seemed to have a more bouncier feel due to the top latex layer).
I actually prefer a slightly firmer memory foam but Zotto reviews said it was more on the medium side and got softer with use, so I didn’t end up getting it despite it having the best value.
I ended up going with Muse mattress because I was tired of emailing companies for their specifications and Muse was transparent on their website about the materials. They also had a firm option which seemed to have the most durable densities.
I hope it works out well! I’ll update if it doesn’t so other people are aware.
Hello,
Thank you very much for all the information on this forum!
I am looking for a new queen mattress and would appreciate some advice.
I have owned around 4 different mattresses in the last 10 years, and every single one of them developed a sink (sometime visible, sometimes not) after only a few months. Right now I am sleeping on a IKEA MORGEDAL FIRM. I bought it 2 years ago, hopping that the firm version would avoid these sagging problems (the previous mattress I had was a very soft Sealy which sagged horribly), but after only a few months I noticed that the middle where I have been sleeping is much softer, which is now causing me lower back pain.
The physical mattress shops that are available to me are: mattress warehouse, mattress firm, Macy, Bob’s furniture. As I have learned by reading the posts and tutorials in this forum, all of these stores are not good as they only carry only big brands mattresses and dont have any detailed information about the quality of the layers (I asked for spec sheets or foam densities but did not get an answer in any of them). There is also what I believe to be a small, locally owned store. They carry 5 or so models, mostly by Eclipse. I could not find any details about this manufacturer, neither from the salesperson or the internet.
Thus, I think my best option is to buy a mattress online, from a place that offers a free return period.
I have been mostly searching the online stores listed in Part 2 and Part 3 of this thread.
I converged on these two: Luma Mattress ($922.50) and Kiss Mattress ($995.00).
The reason for these two is simply that they are “Suitable for all weight ranges.” according to that post.
While I am only 6 feet and ~ 175-190 lb, I am afraid, given my experience, of sagging. This is pretty much my number one concern in buying a mattress right now. I wonder therefore if the “slight caution if you are in a higher weight range” may apply to me as well.
Otherwise, I was also looking at Ghostbed, Bear mattress and maybe a few others.
I sleep mostly on my back and I think a mattress on the firmer side would be better.
I am a hot sleeper, and tend to sweat a lot at night if the room is not very cold. My understanding at first was that memory foam mattress are worse for heat retention. I was looking therefore at hybrid (foam-coil) mattresses, but I have also seen contradictory statements, suggesting the hybrids might be hotter than all foam. So now I am somewhat confused about that.
Finally, I may have to move in 3 or 4 years, and may have to get rid of this mattress so I sometimes wonder whether it makes sense to spend $1000 or more on a mattress only for a few years. However, with my experience, every mattress that I owned lost support in a matter of months. So I am ready to spend that much money, if only the mattress could last to me for 3 or 4 years.
I would appreciate any advice and any other good options that I may have missed.
Hi princessonapea.
Welcome to our mattress forum :). Thank you for your post, and well done with your research so far. Just FYI here is the link for Eclipse Mattress, this brand is owned by Bedding Industries of America.
Memory foams are well-known for sleeping hot issues compared to latex and innerspring/hybrid mattresses. Latex, in general, is also the most breathable and “temperature neutral” of all the different types of foam materials but the firmness of a mattress and how much you sink into it can also affect sleeping temperature as well. While it’s also not always possible to track down temperature regulation issues for any particular person on a specific mattress because there are so many variables involved (including your room temperature and humidity, your sheets and bedding and bedclothes, your mattress protector or any mattress pads you are using, and where you are in the “oven to iceberg” range) and some people can sleep warmer on mattresses that most people are generally fine with … there is more about tracking mattress temperature regulation issues potential causes ~ Post #2 here (at least to the degree possible for a specific mattress) and the posts it links to that may be helpful.
It looks like you are well on your way to finding one of the better online companies with your choices of Ghostbed, Luma, and Kiss Mattress, as these companies are all part of TMU’s Mattress membership listing. With these mattress manufacturer companies, we are confident they will provide and help you with the right specifications to avoid any sagging issues. It looks like you’ve read in our mattress durability guidelines, and as you can see your BMI is 23.7, which is less than the “Above 30” threshold where we would caution in terms of the foam durability and likelihood to wear much faster for higher BMI weight ranges. That being said, the Mattress manufacturers you mentioned are members of our site which have good quality/value mattress options that are very unlikely to develop sagging over time
Please let us know if you have any more questions, and we will also get to your post about foundations.
Phoenix
Dear Phoenix,
Thank you very much for your reply.
I went to the Eclipse website, but of course I could not find any information about the foam densities, etc to make a judgment about the quality.
I am thinking about removing it from consideration (which I already did) unless you have some good thoughts/knowledge about it?
Regarding the sagging issue, I guess I am just paranoid given my prior experience. My BMI is closer to 25 and can be a bit higher. My last (current) mattress, the IKEA MORGEDAL firm has a layer of 1.7 lb/cu.ft form, which lower than your recommended 1.8. Although 1.8 is where you still add a caution.
Now, the IKEA mattress started sagging after only a few months (3 maybe?). I am thinking, is 1.8 that much better than 1.7 so that I can be completely at ease?
For these reasons, I tried to avoid the mattress where you “add a slight caution”.
I think my situation is very similar to this post here
and I am curious what you have to say about it too!
Hi princessonapea.
You are very welcome. 
Noted on the Eclipse … I do not have any reason to convince you to keep on your list especially when there are so many other options, companies, and manufacturers being transparent and disclosing what is in their mattress. I understand your issue with sagging, and I don’t think it’s “paranoia”… along with mattress suitability, how long you will sleep well on a mattress is one of the most significant considerations in the purchase of a mattress for most people.
This really “depends” as there are so many manufacturers of polyfoam and other factors, such as formulation. This is why our cautions are guidance. For instance, IKEA has their own polyurethane pouring plants, and they buy 10’s of Millions of dollars of foam from many other manufacturers.
Given your past experience, it seems that you are already aiming in a good direction with looking at hybrid mattresses with coils and latex or foam for comfort layers … depending on the “trapped heat” factor you mentioned you could even possibly consider higher density memory foam, but you would need to thoroughly check that the temperature microclimate is appropriate for you.
Regarding the TMU link you posted, which of the consumer members in that particular thread were you comparing your situation to?
Phoenix
Thanks Phoenix!
Its the post by MHC, #421. I thought I linked to exactly that post but maybe not.
Hi Princessoapea,
Thanks for letting me know. No worries at all, just let us know if you have any other questions about other mattresses or foundations. And feel free to update us if you decide on any particular products.
Phoenix
Brooklyn Bedding has a new bed, the Ecosleep. It’s a latex hybrid. I was curious about the ILDs and asked them. Just got a reply this evening and wanted to share the info.
Base to Top
1.5" Natural Latex 36ILD
6" Ascension Coils
1.5" Natural Latex 28ILD
1.5" Natural Latex 14ILD
Organic Cotton and Joma Wool Cover
Seems like a decent mattress.
Hi April,
Thank you for the update on the new Brooklyn Bedding Ecosleep mattress. I appreciate it! You are correct that the specifications show no weak links. Interesting to see that they are using latex for the foundational inch below the coils, not polyfoam as many companies do.
Did they happen to mention if the latex is Talalay or Dunlop process?
Thanks again for the update.
Phoenix
Its flippable That’s why there is latex below! They repeat that its 100% natural rainforest certified total latex but I don’t see them use the word Dunlop or Talalay anywhere.