Slumber Ease (aka Eastside Mattress Factory)

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
10

Hi Steve,

Believe it or not … I think there are some common denominators in there but I haven’t had the chance to really analyze it yet. One thing that seems to jump out is that you liked some mattresses with thicker layers of wool which would make sense because wool has the ability to provide local cushioning without compromising support. There are even some “zoned” wool toppers which use more wool in the middle area so that it will stay more resilient under heavier weights and compression.

In essence … yes this is what I was hoping you would have a chance to try. There are a lot of manufacturers who swear by double offset coils and they have a combination of some softness along with a coil count and gauge that make them very firmly supportive once you get past the softer part. Firmer foams on top of this (somewhere in the mix) and then some soft foam as well for cushioning on top would provide some surface softness along with some deeper more limited “coil softness” (the bending in I was talking about). They are not as motion isolating because the coils are joined with helicals but the softer “offset” part can act more independently than other types of coils.

When I talked with Northwest Bedding they were quite excited to be going “back to their roots”. As you mentioned, they used to be a Comfort solutions licensee (the new name for King Koil and KK is now just a brand name) but they thought they were losing control over their mattresses and designs and wanted more independence than being a licensee could afford. They are a little higher priced than some but they are definitely mattress people and are very open about what they put in their mattresses.

The XL (and the NW Bedding variant) use much higher quality polyfoam than is the norm in their mattresses. “Cushion grade” usually refers to 1.8 lb density or higher that would be used in furniture and as you can see here … KK (and I’m guessing NW bedding) even uses some 2.5 lb HR polyfoam and 6 lb memory foam in their mattresses. Even the foundation is much more durable and is built like a tank with two center supports.

So this type of mattress would be firmer than usual and built for better durability. The type of topper that would be “best” would depend on preference but the PLB may be a little on the light side (although your personal experience “rules” theory)

Of course there are variations in the design that may be better or worse for your needs and preferences but this is the general idea of what I was hoping you could test out. Firm coils with some top softness (the offset part), with some firmer “dominating” foam over them (that would compress less and bend into the coils more) and then some “relatively” softer foams for some top cushioning (which may need some extra “soft stuff” over it for fine tuning).

If you talk with Bob again … tell him I said “hi back” :slight_smile: He’s good people.

I should have a chance to look through all the “clues” in the next couple of days and see if I can put together a post that makes some sense out of it.

Phoenix

11

Ok, well,i look forward to your thoughts. Also, if you know of another inner spring mattress in the Seattle area that might fit the experiment better pls let me know and i will go try it. (Altho i really like that this one is made for us heavier folks.). Also, im curious why you think the PLB topper might be too soft. Im beginning to think the problem all along is that none of my toppers were soft enough…
Thx again,
Steve

12

Hi Steve,

I’ve started the “analysis” but haven’t had the chance to sort through it all … it’s still coming :slight_smile:

It would be very interesting to test out the mattresses at Soaring Heart. They have a firm offset innerspring with a talalay topper (choice of firmness) and then a wool topper on top (one of two thicknesses). This is a really simple design and would be a good way to test some of what we have been discussing with both the firmer latex on top of coils with a wool topper (thicker or thinner) for localized pressure relief that didn’t compromise support and alignment. I actually talked wth Jason there today and I have to say I was impressed with his integrity and knowledge. the slightly firmer toppers will have some cushioning but also “bend into” the soft part of the innerspring and the wool will provide additional cushioning for any areas that need it. I may be off here but it would be very interesting to see how you responded to this particularly because thicker wool was one of the “patterns” that I noticed in your feedback.

I think this is more a matter of degree and “competing influences”. The PLB toppers are very soft and depending on the thickness can certainly provide pressure relief in combination with what is below them (you would "go through them and feel the layers below more because of your weight and the softness of the topper). The goal is to sink through them evenly and the danger of using a thicker topper is that in combination with the “semi soft” layers below you may have a little too much thickness/softness and sink through more with your heavier areas but the combination may still “hold up” your lighter areas and lead to alignment issues. Softer foam in “quilting” thickness can be a great choice to modify the latex below it and lower the surface resilience of the mattress (which can be uncomfortable for some) but when it gets to be thicker it changes the pressure distribution and support characteristics of the mattress. This may be too soft for a comfort layer (doesn’t create firmness with compression fast enough) but too thick to just modify the surface feel and lower the surface resilience.

I am particularly interested in how you do with the Soaring Heart because the thicker wool layers will also change the pressure relieving surface to be more localized but still be soft enough and with the type and construction they use in their wool it would allow you to sink in and cushion the areas that need it without compromising support and alignment provided by a firmer support layer.

More to come as the analysis continues.

Phoenix

13

OK, so I went to Soaring Heart today, and I was impressed. As you probably know they have 3 toppers: 2 wool toppers (2" and 4") and a 2" soft (not sure of the ILD, do you know?) “natural Talalay latex wrapped in a layer of Eco-Wool and tufted into an organic cotton sateen case”. I have to say all the toppers felt great. The 4" wool was really nice but I would worry about durability and care, and it might have been too soft (although honestly at the time I didn’t care it felt so nice). The 2" wool and 2" latex were both pretty great as well. Honestly I felt like I could take those toppers and put them on the floor and I could sleep ok!?!? (OK, probably not really!)

Most of their mattresses were firm (dunlop) latex, although they also had the 1 inner spring model you mentioned. The inner spring mattress was set up with the latex topper, and it was pretty nice. The springs were offset open coil and 14 gauge wire, which seems a little light to me. The mattress seemed pretty bouncy, even with the topper on it. My wife wasn’t with me but I suspect she would find it too bouncy. And I would worry about the 14 gauge not holding up. Shoulder pressure was better than on my bed but still there.

By the way, I just reread your last post and noticed you said this bed had 2 toppers? I think that would have been too soft, I didn’t try anything but the latex topper on this bed (although maybe you meant the latex topper has some wool in it?).

I decided to try the latex beds too; they were mostly set up with wool toppers. Again, quite comfortable. In both cases (wool-wrapped latex topper on springs, and wool topper on latex) what you felt was some wool and some latex, although the inner spring bed was definitely bouncier and had more life to it, which is both good and bad. :slight_smile: I sure don’t make things easy. I’m not really sure which I prefer. I sort of don’t want to get an all wool topper because of impressions and care issues. I am awfully tempted to buy the latex/wool topper and try it on my SleepEZ bed, which I think might be close to right in terms of support and is just lacking proper comfort materials…

14

Hi Steve,

Well that’s some promising feedback :slight_smile:

I was impressed with them as well in my lengthy conversation on the phone. Jason is best friends with Nathan who is the owner of the Woolgathers carding mill which makes the EcoWool. They have been involved together for a long time and he knows a lot about wool (although he told me that Nathan is the best expert of all). they make their own all latex mattresses, their own wool toppers, and their innerspring mattress is made by WJ Southard with the material they send them).

I’m not sure of the Topper ILD but when we were talking he said it was on the firmer side which would likely mean N3 or N4 (@ 27 or @32 give or take a few for the variability or natural talalay). He also uses natural talalay in the mattress core of the Tamarack and this might be N5 (@ 38). Not sure though.

His 2" topper starts off at 4" and is compressed to 2" and the 4" one starts off with 6" of wool compressed to 4". I didn’t find out the wool density. We talked at length about the wool and how he makes the toppers and I would have no worries about durability or longevity. He said that you could reasonably expect 10 years or more from them and many have been in use for longer. He chooses the specific wool blend he uses for it’s qualities (he’s been experimenting with different breeds for a long time and it was interesting to hear him talk about the specific properties of wool from each breed) and also cross layers the wool so while there will be some impression, this is not a bad thing in wool and the impressions … even over a long time … will be minimal and will also even out over time as well as you sleep in different areas of the mattress. Wool also retains it’s resiliency if its made right and cared for for a very long time.

I’ve talked with quite a few wool manufacturers and mills in the last few weeks and the general consensus is that medium wool is much better for a topper than fine wool (which is more for fabrics) and will compress less and is useable for longer. The type of wool and the tufting and inner construction will also make a difference in the consistency of the wool over time. There is some initial compression and firming in the areas with more weight (which in the case of wool is not a “negative” like impressions with foam and doesn’t leave you trapped in a “sinkhole”) but then it remains consistent and resilient and further compression is very slow. Thicker wool toppers are also different from the feel and performance of wool used in fire barriers or thinner mattress pads which have much less cushioning ability. They are a legitimate and durable “comfort layer” in a mattress in other words. If you have any concerns though … Jason will talk with you in as much detail as you want about how the wool “ages”.

The interesting part about thicker wool toppers (and by thicker I mean both the 2" and the 4" as opposed to pads or densified fire barriers) is that they distribute weight differently from latex and the pressure relief is more localized around the pressure points rather than “full body” like with latex) which means that it can provide localized pressure relief where it’s needed without affecting support and doesn’t shift as much weight to the more recessed areas of the body which I suspect from some of the patterns I’m seeing is why you like certain types of mattresses. This would be somewhat similar to how soft quilting layers can modify the resilience of latex and not distribute as much weight to the recessed areas.

I personally wouldn’t be worried as much about the durability of the innersprings (even though it’s only 460 in queen) but more about how you feel about the “bounciness” of the springs which would be either a good or bad “preference” and it seems that how you feel about the bounciness would rule them out at least in this gauge.

By the way, I just reread your last post and noticed you said this bed had 2 toppers? I think that would have been too soft, I didn’t try anything but the latex topper on this bed (although maybe you meant the latex topper has some wool in it?).

The extra topper I meant was the option of adding a wool topper (probably the 2") on top of the latex although it’s not part of the “system” itself. I would have been curious how this was but as you said it may have been too soft.

This is also quite promising and may also indicate that a thicker layer of wool on top of the “right” latex layers may work well for you. The “bounciness” is of course a preference but even though it probably wouldn’t be a durability issue … I would tend towards lower gauge springs in your case … and/or a higher coil count.

I would talk with either Jason or (Nathan at the woolgatherers) and talk with either about wool over time. I talked with Sarah (Nathan’s wife) at Shepherds dream and she was really knowledgeable but Nathan is the “expert”. I am starting to suspect that just a wool topper (not even the latex/wool) may work for you in combination with the right latex layering. I’m thinking that you already have lots of latex and that the “missing link” may just be some wool on top of some combination of what you have although the wool latex topper may just happen to be the perfect combination of latex firmness/thickness/and amount of wool for you so your experience with it would carry a lot of weight.

You could also talk with St Peters Woolen Mill or Frankenmuth or Zeilinger Wool Company or Surroundewe if you want some other thoughts or confirmation about how wool performs and wears over time or their ideas about how they make their toppers. All of them were very helpful when I talked with them on the phone and I’ve added some comments about some of them (more are yet to come that I haven’t added yet) in post #3 here.

Phoenix

15

My wife and I went back to Soaring Heart today; we both really like the way the 4" wool feels. I think we would like it on almost anything, but they had either organic dunlop or natural (ie pure, unblended, no synthetics) talalay, in either firm (35) or x-firm (44). I didn’t notice much of a difference between the talalay and the dunlop (or even the inner spring?!) or even the firm / xfirm with the 4" wool topper on it. They really pushed the firm and said that most people that buy xfirm end up swapping for the firm.

The issue now is cost. I don’t really care about organic and think a blended talalay (rather than the natural) is probably fine for a core (remember we are slepping on the eco wool not on the latex). I can get the latex much cheaper anywhere else (they charge $2150 for a 6" natural talalay core - 7" total because its wrapped in batting and covered). I know I can get a 6" core for a lot less - Ikea has something for like $600 although I dont know the density or quality. So thats one problem.

Also I’ve seen wool topper from places like Surroundewe.com that look equivalent but are cheaper. My inclination here would be to buy from Soaring Heart because I’ve felt that one and I know I like it and I think they will stand behind it if we have any issues. Less sure about buying the latex from them since in a sense latex is latex and any decent core (between something like 35-40 ILD) should be fine. Curious what you think? Also if you recommend dunlop or talalay?

They also said they wouldn’t warranty their bed on a platform; they require a slatted base. So that means we need to buy new furniture too (not too much of a problem since we planned to do that anyway since we are changing from Cal King to King)…

Steve

16

Hi Steve,

There will be two replies before I go to be tonight and this is just a placeholder to let you know they’re coming. One is the analysis of the feedback in the earlier post and one is a reply to your latest post. As I was going through the “history” of your comments and feedback and writing about each one … I realized that doing an analysis of each comment would lead to a book and would introduce so much “information” that it may do more harm than good. This is especially true when I can see a “theme” emerging which bypasses the need to write a more detailed analysis and a more general approach about what the mattresses you liked had in common would probably be more helpful. Besides … our back and forth’s are probably a book already and I’m not so sure I want to write another one when I get the sense you are close.

So there’s more to come tonight … but not another book :slight_smile:

Phoenix

17

Hi Steve,

I put together a list from all the previous posts that are roughly “rated” according to what you liked, were more neutral about (or is unknown for the purposes of this analysis) or you disliked. I’ll just put the list in this post for reference and then comment about the patterns I see in the next one.

Phoenix

Mattresses you didn’t like so much:

Royal-Pedic (reverse zoned)

Pure Bliss Latex mattress

3" PLB topper on the Pamper and the Nature (2" was a like)

Naturas at B&M feel much firmer and more tightly packed to me (which I didn’t like much)

I was just sleeping on my wife’s soft / medium / soft side, which i think is definitely too soft for me, but the pressure points felt the same as my all medium side. Is it possible that going firmer would actually reduce my pressure points?

Ordered a 2" soft Talalay topper from SleepEZ and put it over the above config. (S/M/F) This is when I started really feeling my hips sink in too far; also, it didn’t help that much on my side, still uncomfortable.

I wanted to try the BeautyRest Black “latex” model again to compare to SlumberEase. I had tried it at Macy’s once before and sort of liked it. This time I thought it was definitely too soft on my back. The salesguy said that the bed has been on the floor for many months and was probably more “broken in” than the one I tried previously. In other words, those beds soften up and start to break down pretty quickly! (NOTE: same as the newer model in the “like” category)

More Neutral or unknown:

Aireloom Vitagenic (Don’t know which you tried and there are several)

New Sealy Posturepedic with Dsi coils (Don’t know which model … firmness level … you tried)

Soaring Heart: The inner spring mattress was set up with the latex topper, and it was pretty nice. The springs were offset open coil and 14 gauge wire, which seems a little light to me. The mattress seemed pretty bouncy, even with the topper on it. My wife wasn’t with me but I suspect she would find it too bouncy. And I would worry about the 14 gauge not holding up. Shoulder pressure was better than on my bed but still there.

  • The weird thing is, as you know right now I am sleeping on 9" of medium (well SleepEZ medium, so 31-ish ILD) latex. When I first go to sleep I feel like my back is overbending and its annoying. But when I wake in the morning (usually on my back) my back doesn’t hurt, and it doesn’t feel like its overbending anymore. Does that mean anything to you?

Mattresses you seemed to like:

  • I had slept on latex before, but that was many years ago. Bodies change and what was comfortable at 30 isn’t necessarily comfortable at 50. Also, probably more importantly, my old latex mattress had a pillowtop, with non-latex (probably poly foam) in the topper; that surely changed the feel of the bed.

Simmons Beautyrest black Ava (Carmen) firm

OMI

Natura

Simmons (coils) (not sure of the materials over the coils which were the ones you liked)

I felt like my shoulder could have sunk in more on the Simmons and Natura, but at least it didn’t hurt; the soft comfort materials on top seemed to alleviate the pressure points. If only that mattress would last a decent time I might buy it!

Green Sleep with adjustable base

2" topper the Pamper was ok, and the Nature still felt pretty good (which surprised me because I expected it would be too soft). (rated after the Green sleep and Natura though so only "somewhat liked)

I am now sleeping on soft / firm / medium, which seems to be working pretty well. The soft on top finally gets me a little comfort, the firm seems to stop the sinking in and provide about the right amount of support. I spent 3 nights this way, and while its pretty good I still would like more cushion. So I just added my 1" supersoft latex layer. I know it wont change much but hopefully it will provide a bit more comfort. By the way, I added this inside my cover; I suppose it might make more of a difference on top (right under my mattress pad) but its thin and uncovered, so I think it needs to be protected.

So not that much to report. I changed my layers to 1" supersoft over soft over firm over medium, and I’ve been sleeping on that. Seems to be pretty good, although I still change positions a lot during the night and wake up with sore spots on my sides. It’s good enough that I haven’t gone out trying mattresses lately, not so good that I think I’ll wait that much longer

Slumber Ease firm bonnell coils with about 3" of latex or poly on top: I thought the beds were pretty comfortable, although I’m not sure any were the magic one, or even which one I liked best.

Sealy Posturpedic Gel bed they called the Diamond Elite Firm. (sort of liked)

Northwest Bedding (Spokane, Wa) which had heavy gauge (12.75) double-offset coils. Both had high density foam on top; 1 also had some latex in it. They are apparently designed for large people and to be very durable. They are both one-sided. Both were too firm for me but felt pretty good with the PureLatexBliss topper.

Looking at the 1, (NW bedding) it looks like the springs are
“topped by an additional 2 inches of cushion grade medium firm plant-based foam. To this support system is added an additional layer soft, cushion grade plant-based foam. The designer stretch knit fabric is tack quilted to layers of soft, cushion grade plant-based foam and FR fiber to provide a supple sleeping surface.”

At Soaring heart: I decided to try the latex beds too; they were mostly set up with wool toppers. Again, quite comfortable. In both cases (wool-wrapped latex topper on springs, and wool topper on latex) what you felt was some wool and some latex, although the inner spring bed was definitely bouncier and had more life to it, which is both good and bad. I sure don’t make things easy. I’m not really sure which I prefer. I sort of don’t want to get an all wool topper because of impressions and care issues. I am awfully tempted to buy the latex/wool topper and try it on my SleepEZ bed, which I think might be close to right in terms of support and is just lacking proper comfort materials…

My wife and I went back to Soaring Heart today; we both really like the way the 4" wool feels. I think we would like it on almost anything, but they had either organic dunlop or natural (ie pure, unblended, no synthetics) talalay, in either firm (35) or x-firm (44). I didn’t notice much of a difference between the talalay and the dunlop (or even the inner spring?!) or even the firm / xfirm with the 4" wool topper on it. They really pushed the firm and said that most people that buy xfirm end up swapping for the firm.

The one interesting thing i tried at sleep country today that i forgot to mention was a Legget and platt adjustable base. I kept saying how i want to sleep on my back but cant stay comfortable that way for long. Sales guy went into the whole curved back / flat bed thing and suggested the adjustable base. I have to say i liked it. But im still not convinced i could sleep on my back all night even in the “zero g” position…

18

Hi Steve,

So here are some of the patterns that I see which may point to some solutions.

The “didn’t likes”:

Most of the mattresses that you didn’t like had latex close to the surface in thicker or firmer layers. What this is likely pointing to is that if you sink into latex past a certain point (for good pressure relief) … it also has resilience or what some people call “pushback” in parts of your body that are sensitive to this. I suspect that these parts are either tightened in positions that aren’t straight or don’t “want” to be so straight … at least initially. They are saying "let me be in the position I’m used to and I don’t care if another position is “better”. If you firm it up so you don’t sink in as far … it creates pressure problems on the pressure points even though it may solve the issue of “pushing” on the parts of you that “want” to be out of alignment.

If the latex is really soft but also too thick … then you are compressing it enough so that the soft latex firms up and is more resilient and the same problem appears. This can also create joint issues where the joints are flexed too much and out of their natural “center point” causing pain or discomfort in the same areas as materials that are too firm. The exceptions to this is the Natura with firmer compressed wool which was probably just too firm for good pressure relief and the “softened” Beautyrest black which was like the ultra soft latex topper that was too thick and allowed you to sink in too far and put your hip joint out of alignment (and possibly your lower back as well because the thicker softer or softened foam may still hold up your upper body but not your lower heavier pelvis).

The guideline of the “don’t likes” seems to be that the surface layers can’t be too firm but they also can’t be a combination of too soft and thick. You need something in the middle that provides pressure relief but doesn’t allow your hips to flex too much before they are “stopped”.

The Neutrals:

Two are in this list because they are unknown layers so I can’t connect them to either group and one is for “bounce”. The one you are sleeping on though (3 mediums) seems to be " somewhat OK" for all of this but not really enough of any of them. Pressure relief is OK but not great. Shoulders sink in kind of but not enough. Joint and pelvic alignment is OK but initially uncomfortable until your body adjusts. It just isn’t “quite right”. It seems that the alignment may be OK but what may be happening is that you start out more “bent” from the posture of the day and straightening and the relaxing of muscles that allow the straightening may happen over the course of the night and you are OK by morning. Because it’s medium … you may not be sinking in quite far enough to put too much pressure on the sensitive parts and you may not be out of “joint” alignment even though it’s kind of too firm for good pressure relief and to allow your shoulders to sink in far enough.It’s all in the

The ones you liked to different degrees:

This is where it gets interesting because there are several patterns here which all end up with a similar result but through different means with an end result that they don’t shift pressure onto the areas where you are more sensitive and where your body shape doesn’t want to “co-operate” to straighten out. There are 3 ways that do this …

A. One is with adjustable components under the mattress. This is the Green Sleep and the adjustable. What may happening is that you are sinking in but not enough into firmer layers to cause the pressure distribution issues but the adjustments underneath still allows your shoulders to sink in or your back to stay “comfortably out of alignment” (the “bending into” we talked about earlier). This could be with firmer latex that compresses to a degree and then the soft part of the layers below or the coils “finish the job”. With this the surface layers don’t get compressed enough to cause the high resilience issues that your back doesn’t want to accommodate and conform to.

B: Many of these also use layers of lower resilience polyfoam which don’t “spring back” as much when you compress them so that again you don’t have as much pressure on certain areas of the body where you are uncomfortable. This way … even if you sink in far enough to get good pressure relief or to allow your shoulders to sink in … the foam is not resilient enough to cause strain in the areas of your body that may be naturally out of alignment or sensitive. The key here is low resilient soft foam in layers that are “just enough”. Even ultra soft latex seemed to be OK as long as it wasn’t too thick here. Too thick and soft and they allow too much sinking in and cause the hip issues as well as possibly “pushing back” too much in the wrong areas. This is probably also why the 2" 14 ILD talalay was ok but the 3" wasn’t.

C: Wool. What wool does is something similar which allows for the cushioning of pressure points but it springs back more weakly than firmer or thicker foam (that is more compressed) in the less compressed areas so that your muscles and joints aren’t being affected by being “forced” into positions that aren’t comfortable. This seems to be your “favorite” option because wool will resist weakly until it gets firmer more suddenly. It cushions but then stops before there are alignment issues. In the areas where it gets firmer under weight then some softness underneath “completes” the process with some additional (but not too much) softness to “allow” the parts that need to sink in a little more.

All three of these are saying that your natural alignment and posture may be out a bit and that having latex on the surface that compresses too much under the parts where your posture isn’t straight are “forcing” these parts into positions that may be better in “theory” but not in practice because you are not quite “straight” and being “forced” to lay in a “straight” position puts strain on the muscles.

The bottom line with all three of these methods … lower resilience soft foams that aren’t too thin or thick, firmer foams that get help from underneath, and wool that can cushion but not “force” and can take advantage of some additional compression underneath, all seem to work but if I’m reading your feedback correctly … wool seems to work best.

An interesting thought (tonge in cheek) is that maybe your body is telling you that your “absolute perfect bed” may be one of the hand built innerspring and natural fiber superbeds like Hastens … VI Springs … Hypnos … or Savoir :slight_smile:

In any case … I think that’s what the “signs” are pointing to as far as I can make sense of your feedback and put it into patterns.

More to come with some thoughts about your last post.

Phoenix

19

Hi Steve,

Last post for the night :slight_smile:

I would also think that the softer latex would work better because you will need some extra compliance under the wool to allow some parts to sink in better … especially with some initial firming. This would give the mattress the ability to be more adaptable to different sleeping positions and improve pressure relief from (underneath). While the firmer latex may feel good at first … when the wool completes it’s initial compression it may not be “quite” enough and may need more 'help" than the ultra firm latex may provide. I think this would be especially important for you because your shoulders may not sink in quite enough otherwise.

You already have enough latex layers of various firmness levels that you wouldn’t need to buy any more. It may be worth starting with the wool layer on the 3 layers you currently have and then lying on each side (M/M/M and your wife’s S/M/F) to see what each feels like. You could also use 6" (2 layers) with the wool on top similar to the Soaring Heart. You would have many options and as you say they may even all work well. Is there a reason you are thinking of buying more latex or am I misreading something?

The wool sources I linked to in the earlier post all make good quality products but when I talked with Jason I have to say I was particularly impressed. They are not the lowest cost but he really does know his stuff and he had the highest “estimate” of the useable lifetime of his wool topper of all of them (although "estimates may not be real life). He also layers it in a way that it doesn’t compress as much and keeps it’s loft better. They are not the lowest cost but they do seem to make products that are very durable.

The surroundewe was also impressive though because they added more wool in the center which would be a form of “wool zoning” for durability and to keep the compression even. They also had a regimen where you lay in different places all across the surface as an innitial “treatment” to compress it evenly. I would probably tend towards local though even though the costs are a little higher both for known quality and the reasons that you mentioned. His description of the product and the knowledge behind it was impressive.

I’m kinda confused about why you are looking for a base under the wool when you already have so much latex. With just the wool topper you should have everything you need and hopefully the have “missing link” that you’ve been wanting for a long time. Oops … I think I may be getting it … is it about the change from King to Cal King? If that’s it I would probably order the topper anyway in the size you wanted and then use the layers that you have to make sure of what worked best under it before buying anything else.

I have to say I’m quite hopeful about all of this working for you after so long :slight_smile:

Phoenix

20

OK, well that’s a lot to process! In the meantime I will try to address the issues you raised in your last post.

First of all, I agree with you about buying the topper locally. Its not that big a difference in cost and as you said I think it will be easier to fix any problems I might have locally.

Second: Yes we want to change from a cal king to a king. This isn’t really a huge deal, its just that we realised we are still sleeping on a cal king because 20 years ago we had a water bed and somehow never changed. So we have all this old furniture and stuff that matches the cal king frame, and now we want to dump it all and start over. Also, Beth is allergic to dust and needs to buy allergy covers and things and there are a lot more choices for king than for cal king.

Third: I thought about using the latex we already have. But there are a few issues:

a. its a mix of dunlop and talalay and I no longer know which is which
b. the “firm” piece is noticably taller than all the other pieces, so when I use it the 2 sides of the bed are uneven (I still change the config in my bed pretty often and haven’t been using the firm in a while, just to try and even up the bed)
c. the “mediums” are roughly 31 ild, not really firm enough to use in a 6" config (Soaring Heart used either 35 which they called firm or 44 which was xfirm)
d. I don’t want to get a cal king topper if we are going to change to a king bed, and i just hadn’t thought of getting king and trying that with the existing latex
e. My latex has been handled so much and sat out in the closet so often that I think it is “damaged” or at least not in the best shape. There is a big difference between the look of the latex in the core at Soaring Heart and the latex in my bed. I was gonna post a picture of my latex but I don’t feel like ripping everything up again. I really just don’t want to keep any part of that bed anymore

So, as you suggest, I could order the king wool topper and try it over some config of my latex. But I worry that the say 2 mediums alone (6" config) wouldn’t be quite firm enough - and of course it wouldn’t fit the cover. I could try the config you suggest (S/M/F on one side, M/M/M on the other) but the bed would be uneven. I could buy another firm to even things out but I don’t want to put any more money into “Franken-bed”.

On reflection you are probably right that its worth just getting the topper and trying it with my latex. There are some issues but it would probably help me get things right. So, objections aside, I guess I will do that. The holdup now is finding and ordering the new bedroom furniture. Do you agree that you have to put latex on slats? Soaring Heart had some decent furniture but again it was pricey…

Thanks for all the help Phoenix! I feel more comfortable going with the wool now that you have looked into it!

Steve

21

Hi Steve,

OK … that all makes perfect sense.

You have come so far though that while I wouldn’t buy another layer of latex for the purposes of testing (such as buying another layer of firm) … I think it would be valuable to start with the topper (even though it won’t fit exactly on your current size) and see how the layering underneath affected things before deciding on what to buy for a “permanent” latex core replacement. I think this would also ease your mind and it may be surprising (based on how the XFirm, Firm and innerspring felt so similar to you) that several combinations underneath may work and that the thicker wool topper may mean that the layers underneath aren’t quite so “critical” to get exactly right. There’s not a lot of difference for example between 31 and 35 although the difference in materials with Talalay vs Dunlop would make a bigger difference. This could give you a bit longer term experience with the wool and layers underneath which may help you notice differences that may not be as easy to discern with only more limited testing. This way you would have better odds of making a choice of latex that was closer to your “ideal”.

I am kind of excited that your mattress journey may be drawing to a close and that you will be able to “forget” what you are sleeping on … and just sleep :slight_smile:

I am also grateful for all your interactions with me both here and in the other forum because I am always asking “why” do people experience what they do on a mattress and the more difficult “challenges” keep increasing my own ongoing learning curve. In this case it was part of what led to more intensive research and more focused attention into wool as a “comfort layer” rather than just a quilting layer, protector, or mattress pad in a sleeping system and led to many questions and conversations with manufacturers to help understand the similarities and differences that it offered compared to other materials.

It was a “partial gap” in the information on the site compared to the more common mattress material choices and it’s particularly satisfying for me to be able to answer “whys” to the degree that it can help me “point to” better options for people in more difficult circumstances. Besides I had the chance to talk with some good people with some in depth knowledge about wool that were very willing to think about and provide some well thought out answers to my more detailed and sometimes technical questions :). Some of the questions I asked them about the more “technical” parts of wool toppers and how different construction methods and even types of topper can affect performance (such as the “performance difference” between fleece toppers and wool batting toppers) led to some very interesting and informative conversations.

So as your sleeping system “evolves” to include wool … I’d be particularly interested in your experiences on different layering of latex below it (even if it’s an approximation because the layers may be somewhat unknown or degraded). I also think that it could lead to a more nuanced or “accurate” final choice … or alternatively that this type of detail isn’t even necessary for you because they’re “all good”.

I thought you were already sleeping on the “uneven” M/M/M split with S/M/F which was the basis for the suggestion (it would just involve putting the wool topper on your current configuration) but whatever combination you are currently using it would give helpful information and feedback about your final latex core choice. If you are up to experimenting with a few layer changes (either 6" or 9") then this may also have some value but even just testing the wool on both sides of what you currently have and comparing it to what you tested would be helpful and may even be enough to give you the confidence about what final choice would be best.

So thanks again for all your great questions and comments along the way and I’m really looking forward to your “wool” reports and hopeful about the direction things are going.

Phoenix

22

I’m glad that you think this was useful for you too, since you put so much time into it; hate to think it was a waste for you!

May I respectfully disagree with one thing you said - you said “There’s not a lot of difference for example between 31 and 35” ILD latex. I know you didn’t mean this as a blanket statement, but I’m just now coming to realize how significant a 4 ILD difference can be. I knew that SleepEZ’s soft was in the 23 ILD range, and figured that just couldnt feel very different from 19. But while shopping yesterday I laid on a bed that was a 3" 19 ILD talalay over 6" of 32 ILD tatalay and that bed felt so much softer than mine, which is 23 over 32. So, at least to me, 19 ILD talalay is soft, and 23 ILD tatalaly isn’t. It makes me a little mad that I purchased from SleepEZ, since I don’t think anyone else calls 23 soft (obviously I could be wrong here, but I think the consensus is soft is less than 20). (I often wonder if I had bought from FloBeds if I would have been happier.) In fact, the bed with 19 over 32 felt too soft to me, and they had another bed next to it which was 19 over 36 and it felt better to me, and again thats only a difference of 4 ILD. So I would say those 4 ILD differences can be very important. Thats another reason your suggestion to just get the wool topper and try it with my latex makes sense.

At any rate, if I could bother you for a few more things: Do you think I should go with talalay or dunlop in the core under the wool? Since I can’t tell which is which I won’t be able to test this part. Also, do you have suggestions for where to buy the 6" core if I decide to do that online? And, do you think getting a slatted foundation is important, and if so do you have any suggestions for where to get that? Thanks again!

23

Hi Steve,

I agree with you and the statement I made was rather broad but had a different context than your example.

There is a noticeable difference between 19 ILD and 24 ILD (or 23 which is not an LI “rating”) even though the difference is relatively small. This is because it represents a larger percentage change. A 4 ILD difference in firmer latex would not represent as great a percentage change and would be more difficult to tell. I also meant that the ILD rating themselves are probably not accurate and all latex has a “range” of ILD across the surface. In a talalay layer … the actual ILD is an average that can vary in different places on the layer by as much as 4 ILD from the softest part to the firmest part and even the “average” ILD is rated to a “standard” it is closest to. In the case of Dunlop … the ILD variances across the surface are even larger than talalay and because of it’s higher sag factor even a lower ILD rated at 25% compression can feel firmer than a higher ILD Talalay where someone sinks into the layer more than 25%.

Dunlop ILD ratings are also often a “guess” and at best are only the midpoint of a range.

My main point though was that you may be surprised that it doesn’t make as much difference in a support layer with wool over it as you may think in the same way that you didn’t notice much difference in the Firm, Extra firm, and the Innersping with the Wool topper over them.

Actually Latex International themselves calls 24 ILD “soft” and anyone that rates their material differently is disagreeing with the actual manufacturer of the latex and creating confusion. The 19 is called “plush” and the 14 is called “super plush”. Some manufacturers use a “standard” top layer even firmer in the range of 28. In addition to this … ILD ratings in latex are different from ILD ratings in polyfoam because latex is “tested” with a 6" core while polyfoam is tested with a 4" core. This would mean that a latex ILD is actually softer than it would seem using a polyfoam ILD rating as a comparison and as you can see by the chart on this PFA page the difference in in the range of 20%. This means that 24 ILD latex tested on a 6" core would be similar to a 19 ILD in polyfoam tested on a 4" core.

Flobeds don’t include ILD information at all but I would imagine that since they use LI talalay that their firmness ratings would be the same as LI just like SleepEz. If it was different from their own supplier then they would be contributing to more ILD confusion which I doubt (but could be wrong). The middle and lower layers would be the same but of course their design concept uses a “standard” convoluted soft layer on top of all their mattresses which is the same for all their models and is closer to mattresses.net design which also used a standard “soft” layer on the top of their standard mattresses and changes the core below this to adjust firmness.

Each person will have a different sensitivity to the ILD differences they can feel and some of this is often because two different layers may not even match the ILD rating they are assigned or think they are testing. For example a 32 ILD LI Talalay may actually be 33.9 and a 36 ILD talalay may be 34.1. ILD is always best thought of as a “range” rather than an exact number and it is not nearly as exact as people seem to think either in “fact” or in the accuracy of people’s perceptions. Unfortunately there is no consistent meaning or standardization to the “soft, medium, firm” terms or their variants in either a particular material or between materials and I doubt that this is coming anytime soon.

All of this though is moot to the point I was making (or trying to make and poorly it seems) which was about finding out how much difference you could feel in the different core layers with wool on top.

Do you have any memory of which you prefer when you were testing them before? The Dunlop is more supportive and denser/firmer so would hold up weight better in an equivalent ILD. Talalay is more 'springy" and in an equivalent ILD would allow for a bit more sinking in. Did you have a preference between the two at Soaring Heart with the wool on top? I iwould go by either your preference of reel based on testing both or on which was more important to you … either “holding up the hips” (Dunlop) or “allowing the shoulders” (Talalay). This is assuming equivalent ILD’s of course because bvoth the holding up and the allowing can be adjusted by changing firmness levels in which case the feel of each would become the most important.

I don’t keep an ongoing record of pricing but I would look through the manufacturer members of the site listed in post #21 here for the latex core. Here in Seattle I would also call the local manufacturers to check their prices for a core you wanted. Post #4 here also includes some DIY sources and some of the polyfoam outlets also sell latex but I don’t have a list of their prices and in my experience they are not in the same price or value range and I doubt would be any better. Other than this … an online search would bring up more options (although mostly toppers rather than cores) and but again I doubt you will find better pricing/value than is listed on the manufacturer’s list for the site.

In terms of foundations … I personally prefer a slatted or grid type foundation for latex because like Soaring Heart I believe they ventilate better and reduce the risk of mold and mildew. There are many others who say that a solid platform foundation is also fine but I am in the “more ventilation is better” camp and perhaps more risk adverse.

There are quite a few posts scattered around the forum with foundation sources from very inexpensive to much more expensive and my thoughts about the different options. Some of the better ones with links to various choices include post #4 here … post #13 here … post #47 here … and post #2 here.

I hope I covered all of your comments and questions :slight_smile:

Phoenix

24

That makes sense. Altho the mattresses I tested the other day were both 19 ILD latex over “medium” latex - one was 32 ILD and one was 36 ILD - and I felt a noticeable difference there. Of course, the sales guy was in a hurry and maybe one was really more or less than he said? (This was at Seattle Mattress.)

Well as you said I didn’t seem to notice much difference, so I’m glad this makes some sort of sense. But I will know more when I get the topper and test it at home. (BTW, I ordered it, but its made “fresh” and so its a 2 week wait.)

Thats weird, I distinctly remember that SleepEz had firmer ILDs to go with their words. In my old notes I have this: “SleepEZ uses soft = 23 ILD, medium = 31 ILD, firm = 39 ILD, and extra firm = 44 ILD; FloBeds uses soft = 19, medium = 28, firm = 32, extra firm = 36, and super firm = 44 ILDs.” The odd numbers are because they quoted a range (ie medium = 30-32). At any rate, I guess the real lesson is try before you buy, and know exactly what is in the bed you like…

This is a good thing to focus on during testing, thanks…

More when I get the thing!

25

Hi Steve,

Actually you’re right. I saw the ILD specs for FloBeds here and they do rate the 19 ILD as soft and differently from LI.

Their 2" standard top layer on all their mattresses is also convoluted which means that the ILD compared to the ILD of the non convoluted layer prior to fabrication (convoluting) would depend on the shape and depth of the convolute pattern. They start with a 28 ILD layer and say it is “similar” to 14 ILD latex but this would be an approximation and I would think that the effective ILD would likely be a little more than that because the convolute doesn’t go all the way through the layer and there is a “base” that is not convoluted. This is one of the “good for some people and not so good for others” parts of the Flobeds because the top layer is standardized although the layers below this can be used to modify the effective thickness/softness of the comfort layer. Convolute would also be less durable than the equivalent ILD non convoluted layer (less material to absorb the weight and constant compression) but it has a higher effective compression modulus (softer with the initial compression of the convolute but firmer with deeper compression as it reaches the thicker part of the convolute and the non convoluted part of the layer).

In any case … I’m looking forward to more feedback!

Phoenix

26

Hi Phoenix
I took some pictures of my latex, which isn’t very old (4 years or so?) but has been handled a lot and left out in the open when stored. It looks a little funky to me, I just wondered what you think? Also, can you tell is this is Dunlop or Talalay?
Thanks
Steve

27

Hi Steve,

It can be hard to tell sometimes but based on an “educated guess” the middle picture looks more like talalay than the other two. It would also be helpful if you could take a picture of the side view of the layers which shows the pincores through the mattress.

While I can certainly see the “handling damage” … none of it looks to be so significant that it would affect the performance or feel.

What I can’t see though is any “crusting” or oxidizing on the layers (when latex oxidizes it gets “crusty”, discolored, and has harder “crumbles”) and this would be an indicator as well of the amount of damage that exposure to the air and other oxidizing factors have caused. For example if you look at the video here, they talk about the crusting (even though it’s not easy to see) or look at the comments and pictures in post #3 here, you can get a sense of what happens when latex ages. It probably says something that there are so few pictures of “aged latex” on the internet :).

Phoenix

28

OK, so I got the 4" wool topper from Soaring Heart and have slept on it a few nights now. Its on a 6" core of Sleepez medium latex, which is a bit softer than the core they had in the store (32 vs 36), although I’m not sure its enough to make much of a difference. Another difference is that the beds in the store had a bit more material - they were 6" of latex but the mattresses were 7". Mine is pretty much just the latex (with a thin quilted cotton cover). I arranged the latex so I think one side is talalay and the other is dunlop, although I don’t know which is which, and so far I have only slept on one side.

All that said, my impression so far is that its pretty comfortable. I’ve fallen asleep easily and slept well. I do sometimes seem to wake up with a numb hand, which is weird, but hasn’t happened enough yet that I’m sure thats a real thing. There is one thing that concerns me, and that is compression in the wool. I’ve attached a few pictures, taken the first morning. The topper easily fluffed back up, but as you can see I was definitely in a bit of a depression by morning. I talked to Soaring Heart and they say this is natural, and indeed its not uncomfortable. I’m just worried that it will become a problem. Thoughts?

29

Hi Steve,

So far so good … as long as the hand numbness goes away (assuming that it’s connected).

The initial compression of the wool is completely normal. It will go through some initial compression at first and then stabilize and this is part of how wool layers respond and adapt themselves to your body shape and sleeping style. It’s the same with some of the high end ultra premium mattresses which only use innersprings and natural fibers where the initial compression is a “good thing” instead of the type of impressions that come from foam which involve softening and foam breakdown. Because people nowadays “rightfully” connect impressions (which come from foam) as being “bad” … it’s easy to think that the same applies to natural fibers like wool when it doesn’t. To the degree that a well made product allows it … they are completely normal and even desirable.

Some of the manufacturers even suggest that you lay in various places on the mattress (from one edge to another) to even out the initial compression of the wool across the surface and once this has been done and the initial compression is “finished” then it will stay resilient with only very gradual further compression for a long time.

Phoenix