Step 1 (initial feel) and already confused

Hi there,
We’re in Montreal. We visited Literie Provincale for step 1 (initial feel).
I am 6’1 165lb and she’s 5’8 130lb.

Phoenix, you explain at the end of the “initial feel” stage that “it is time to go home and take a look at why you liked the ones you did. If you don’t see the pattern, then our forum and the rest of this website is the place to go to ask your questions”.
Well here I am!

The mattresses that we have chosen based on the “initial feel” vary greatly Here is the list:

2 x 3/8" cotton quilting
2" 100% Natural Talalay 21 ILD (all latex at that store is 100% natural)
6" 36 ILD

1" Tencel quilting
1.5" 18lb foam (quality 3lb)
4" 35lb foam (quality 3lb)
[ i now realize that perhaps the 18 and 35 are ILD? ]

tencel quilting
2" 5.5lb memory foam
2" poly
innerspring core, 1200 springs.

The fourth is same innerspring core but smaller comfort layer (i think 1" foam) and double sided.

So within our 4 choices there are 3 types of cores and 3 types of comfort layers.
Here are my questions:

  1. do you see a pattern in these choices? progressive construction perhaps?
  2. Is it possible that we picked these 4 because the firmness/softness levels of everything in the showroom, applied to our preference, yields these 4 and that, really, if each configuration’s softness/firmness level was adjusted to our liking, we’d be able to better discern which materials we like?
  3. For the latex, it felt too bouncy for me, but its 100% natural talalay and in low ILD this is to be expected, if I recall? overall we are not sure about latex due to bounciness but we want to make sure we don’t reject it for nothing because on paper it is the best material.and we would appreciate its breathability and durability.
  4. When I was on the latex mentioned above I felt I was ‘in’ the mattress whereas for memory foam I don’t recall feeling that, Is this possible?
  5. We both sleep on both back + side. Should this change the equation? One guy at the store said the memory foam choice above would be especially good for side sleeping.
  6. Is information found online about “other activities” taking place on a memory foam mattress going to be accurate or must experiences with lower quality memory foams be discounted?

thanks!

Hi Pegabo,

[quote]We’re in Montreal. We visited Literie Provincale for step 1 (initial feel).
I am 6’1 165lb and she’s 5’8 130lb.

Phoenix, you explain at the end of the “initial feel” stage that “it is time to go home and take a look at why you liked the ones you did. If you don’t see the pattern, then our forum and the rest of this website is the place to go to ask your questions”.
Well here I am![/quote]

The article “5 steps to your perfect mattress” was written over 4 years ago when the site was first started and is probably more complex than it really needs to be. While it contains some valuable information … over the course of the next few months I will be rewriting it (and the current tutorial) to amalgamate and simplify the information they contain into one tutorial but for now I would follow the testing guidelines that are linked in step 4 of the mattress shopping tutorial here which is a simpler process and just use the information in the “5 steps” section as additional information that may be helpful rather than as a specific process.

[quote]The mattresses that we have chosen based on the “initial feel” vary greatly Here is the list:

2 x 3/8" cotton quilting
2" 100% Natural Talalay 21 ILD (all latex at that store is 100% natural)
6" 36 ILD

1" Tencel quilting
1.5" 18lb foam (quality 3lb)
4" 35lb foam (quality 3lb)
[ i now realize that perhaps the 18 and 35 are ILD? ]

tencel quilting
2" 5.5lb memory foam
2" poly
innerspring core, 1200 springs.

The fourth is same innerspring core but smaller comfort layer (i think 1" foam) and double sided.

So within our 4 choices there are 3 types of cores and 3 types of comfort layers.
Here are my questions:

  1. do you see a pattern in these choices? progressive construction perhaps?[/quote]

The first mattress you listed has a latex comfort layer but I don’t know the type of support core it contains (although I’m guessing it’s also latex?).

The second mattress you listed doesn’t mention the type of foam in the layers (polyfoam, memory foam, latex foam) so I’m not sure what type of foam is in each layer.

The third mattress has memory foam and polyfoam in the comfort layers and an innerspring (I’m guessing a pocket coil) for the support core.

The last mattress you mentioned also has an innerspring support core of some type but I don’t know the specifics of the comfort layer.

These are all very different mattresses and overall I don’t see a specific pattern that I can identify no. if you really don’t have a preference between these 4 mattresses (you really don’t know which one you would choose if you had to choose one of them at this point) that can identify the type of comfort layers or support core that you tend to prefer then it’s quite possible that you really don’t have a preference between mattresses or materials and that the firmness or softness or overall response of a mattress is a more important part of how it “feels” for you than the types of materials or components inside it.

While you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress so I really don’t know why you chose these four … it’s very possible that their general firmness or softness is the common denominator that led to you choosing them.

If it’s possible I would try several different latex mattresses in different firmness levels and that use different types of latex because there are hundreds of different latex mattress designs that would each feel very different from each other but if you feel that all of them are too bouncy for your preferences then it would probably be a good idea to focus on different types of mattresses and materials.

There is more about the most important parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase in post #13 here but PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences … in that order) is always the most important part of the “value” of any mattress purchase regardless of the type of mattress or materials it has inside it. This would be followed by the durability of the materials and the last priority would be all the other preferences that are important to you.

While this wouldn’t be the usual feedback for people who have compared memory foam and latex in an apples to apples comparison (see post #2 here about memory foam vs latex) … your own personal experience always “trumps” theory or other people’s experiences. The memory foam mattress you tested may have been firmer than the latex mattress so you could have been sinking in more into the latex or some of the other materials or components in the mattresses you tested may also be affecting how they feel to you besides just the memory foam or the latex in each of them but in the end it doesn’t really matter what you are “supposed” to feel or “why” you feel what you do and what you “actually” feel on a specific mattress is all that really matters.

The type of material or the type of mattress that each person prefers is a personal preference not a “better worse” choice and there isn’t a specific material that is better for certain sleeping positions. While it’s certainly true that your sleeping positions can affect your choice of mattress and in general terms side sleepers tend to need thicker/softer comfort layers than back or stomach sleepers … every type of material and mattress has a very wide range of firmness choices and designs that can be suitable for any sleeping position. It’s possible that the salesperson was referring to choosing between specific mattresses rather than meaning memory foam as a whole (some memory foam mattresses would be much too firm for some side sleepers for example) but the design of a mattress and the thickness and firmness of the comfort layers and the firmness of the support layers are a much more important part of whether a mattress is a suitable “match” for you in all your sleeping positions than the specific materials inside it and the best way to know whether any mattress is a good match for you is based on your own careful testing and experience. Your body will tell you more than any “theory”.

There isn’t any consensus between people about which type of material is best for sex and it’s certainly a very personal preference that can vary widely between people but in very general terms there would be more people that would tend to prefer more resilient, faster responding, and less motion restricting materials (like latex, polyfoam, or innersprings) than less resilient, slower response, and more motion restricting materials such as memory foam. There is more about sex and memory foam in post #2 here.

Phoenix

Thank you Phoenix!

Indeed, the first mattress is latex over latex and the second is poly over poly. The spring cores are pocket coil and the fourth mattress’s comfort layer I simply forgot.

The salesman was indeed talking about that specific memory foam mattress in terms of side sleeping but like you said, we need to test and test.
In any event I think the biggest takeaway here is that the next step is to test many different types of latex and this will probably lead to either its elimination or falling in love with one of the latex models we see…

Thank you and perhaps I’ll update soon!

Hi Pegabo,

[quote]In any event I think the biggest takeaway here is that the next step is to test many different types of latex and this will probably lead to either its elimination or falling in love with one of the latex models we see…

Thank you and perhaps I’ll update soon! [/quote]

That makes sense to me … and I’m looking forward to your comments and feedback once you’ve had a chance to do some additional testing and decide how you feel about latex in general.

You’ve probably already seen this but just in case you haven’t the better options or possibilities I’m aware of in and around the Montreal area (subject to the quality/value guidelines here) are listed in post #276 here.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

A quick update:
We went to Matelas Selection to get a better idea of how we feel about latex. They had

  • a 6" 36 ILD (100% talalay) that felt too firm.
  • a 2" 28 ILD latex over 4" poly core 40 ILD. It also felt “too firm”.
  • Then there was 2" gel over 2" 28 ILD latex over 4" poly core 40 ILD. That one felt very nice when flopping around, but after lying down on it 10min on our backs, it started to hurt. So they had us try 38 instead of 40 core but it was not better.
  • Then they had us try 6" 32 ILD latex, and we stayed on that one for a while and it didn’t hurt and was comfy!

So I think the 2" 21 ILD latex over 36 ILD latex core from my initial post was indeed too much of a contrast. We don’t like soft super-bouncy latex on top. But even with 32 ILD on top, we don’t like the feeling of being ‘on’ the mattress that much. So what I’m thinking now is maybe trying that 6" 32 ILD plus something on top, maybe 1" gel? 2" gel? maybe a cotton/wool/horsehair quilting? Any guidance on the relative magnitudes of these 3 options, in terms of how much each can contribute, relatively speaking, to making the person feel ‘in’ the mattress? Also, is there a thread somewhere with things to consider for people who were impacted earlier in their life by sports that are tough on the back?

Regards
Pegabo

Hi Pegabo,

Thanks for the update … I appreciate it.:slight_smile:

Every layer and component of a mattress will affect the feel and performance of every other layer and component both above and below it but since so much of this is subjective and relative to different body types, sleeping positions, and individual perceptions the only way to really know how any combination of materials will feel to you (regardless of how the same combination will feel to anyone else) will be based on your own careful testing or personal experience. The properties and “feel” of layers or components that are closer to the surface will have a bigger effect on what you feel than layers that are deeper in the mattress and thicker layers of the same materials or components will contribute more of their specific properties to what you feel and have a bigger effect on modifying the feel of the layers below them than thinner layers.

Slow response materials (such as memory foam or gel memory foam) and softer layers of natural fibers can have less resilience and more of an “in the mattress” feel than layers of more resilient foam materials (such as some types of polyfoam or latex) which can have more of an “on the mattress” feel although the firmness or softness and the thickness of each of them will also play a role in how deeply you sink into them and how much you feel “in the mattress” vs “on the mattress”.

The process of choosing a mattress for those who have back injuries or back pain would be the same as choosing a mattress for those who don’t in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) but neutral spinal alignment and making sure that a mattress isn’t too soft for you would become an even more important priority if there is a predisposition for back pain that can be aggravated by sleeping out of alignment. Once again your own personal testing for PPP (using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) will always be the most reliable way to decide which specific mattress is best for you. If you are uncertain whether a specific mattress is a good “match” for you then the return or exchange policies would also become a more important part of the “value” of a purchase so that you still have good options available if you end up making a choice that doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for.

In some cases a suitable zoning system can also be helpful for those whose circumstances are more challenging than the norm (see post #11 here).

In the end though … only you can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved for anyone to be able to make specific recommendations or suggest a specific mattress or combination of layers or materials based on specs (either yours or a mattress), health conditions, individual circumstances, or “theory at a distance” (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here) that can possibly be more reliable than your own careful testing or personal experience.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,
I thought more about my question on the last thread, and I’d like to re-ask it in a different, more to-the-point way. I have been to three places and all three had a 6-8" single-layer 100% natural talalay mattress, typically in ILD between 32-36. None of the showrooms had a 6-8" talalay with another thing on top (for example, 1-2" gel or fancy quilting). My question is: why is this so? What’s so good and “sufficient”, for lack of a better word, about a single-layer 6-8" latex mattress. It seems like a configuration that cannot be played with, other than the ILD, it seems too simple and it seems like a lost opportunity to showcase the same thing but with something on top for those who don’t like the direct feel of latex.

Thanks
Pegabo

Hi Pegabo,

There is really no way for me to know why a particular manufacturer or retailer chooses the specific mattresses they have on their showroom floor other than to say they would normally carry the mattresses that they believe would be attractive to a wide range of their local customers. A single layer of latex wouldn’t be more than 6" thick so if there is a mattress on their floor that has 8" of latex in a mattress then it would most likely be a 6" core and an additional 2" layer on top of it (either laminated or loose inside the cover).

Most mattresses in the industry are “finished” mattresses rather than component mattresses that allow the layers to be individual exchanged or replaced and there are pros and cons to each (see post #15 here and post #2 here). If you tend to prefer the “feel” of another type of material on top of latex then the mattresses you are describing would make a good “base” for any type of topper that you would prefer so you could put together your own sleeping system. The advantage of a mattress/topper combination vs having the same layer inside the mattress is that a separate topper can be replaced without having to replace the entire mattress if it softens or breaks down more quickly than the firmer mattress underneath it (which is likely) or if your needs and preferences change over time.

If you don’t like the feel of latex then there probably wouldn’t be much reason to use latex in the deeper layers of a sleeping system either and it may be a good idea to consider mattresses that use either an innerspring or a polyfoam support core with the type of material you prefer on top of it.

Phoenix

Ok thanks, and so a follow-up on the last point about latex in the core: in terms of temperature regulation, does latex core help vs. Another core assuming the top material(s) is/are known for good temperature regulation already? (Wool/gel)

Say if we compare 2" gel over springs vs. 2" gel over latex. Or wool quilting over 1"poly over spring vs wool quilting over latex (all natural).

Pegabo

Hi Pegabo,

While it’s not possible to quantify the sleeping temperature of a mattress for a particular person or know for certain how two mattresses will compare in terms of temperature regulation for a particular person (there is no standardized testing for this) … there is more about the many variables that can affect the sleeping temperature of a mattress in post #2 here that can help you choose the types of materials that are most likely to keep you in a comfortable temperature range.

The layers that are closest to you will have a bigger effect on sleeping temperature than layers that are farther away from you so upper layers will have a bigger effect than deeper layers.

In very general terms (because there are so many other variables involved) … latex is the most breathable and “temperature neutral” of all the foam materials.

Gel foam materials tend to have a cooler surface temperature when you touch them but the benefits of gel materials tends to be short term so while the gel can help with cooling when you first go to sleep at night, once temperatures equalize then the insulating properties of the base foam material become dominant. There is more about gel foams in post #2 here and the posts it links to.

Natural fibers such as wool are better temperature regulators than foam materials because they are very breathable and moisture wicking and wool in particular does a great job of storing moisture inside the fiber and away from the skin.

Innersprings of course are highly breathable but in most cases they are used deeper in the mattress so their effect on temperature is less than with layers that are closer to the top of the mattress.

Phoenix

Thank you very much once again!

Hi Pheonix,
I’ve tried a few more mattresses and I found that lying down on something called ‘firm’ is not for sure not soft enough - hurts my mid-upper back every time. Over the next hour, I was lying down on many “semi-firms” with very progressive high-quality constructions. It is way better, but for each, after a few minutes, there is still the same pain but in a much smaller version.

If I correctly understood the person at the store, he said it’s because I have been sleeping on my S-brand (16" mattress with a 4" pillowtop for 6 years, big indentation, it is finished) that my back is feeling this discomfort. He said typically it’ll go away after a few weeks and often people return with complaints and he tells them to give it 2-3 weeks. So, yes maybe I can try softer mattresses and my own PPP is better than theory at a distance, but my question: generally speaking, is his explanation something that is roughly right? Should I just take one of these and see? just to make it clear, posture/alignment and personal preferences are going to be well-matched if I take one of these (particularly one specific model); the only issue is pressure relief.

Pegabo

I was involved in a sport and a coach at the Olympic level that is incredibly tough on the low back, where almost all athletes end up with back problems at the end of their careers. I found that there was wide variation as to what worked best for these athletes in a sleep system - there is no one magic mattress type or style. I would agree that the findings of researchers like Haex where they suggest to err on the side of a little firmer versus more plush (when presented with two products of equal quality with slightly different surface comforts) generally holds true for low back issues.

As Phoenix mentioned previously there certainly is an adjustment period to any new mattress, which I liken to the period of retrogression when you begin a new physical training regimen. Additionally, and as you alluded, your body can become used to a poorly supportive surface and it takes some time to readjust to a new, proper sleep surface. One other thing to consider is your pillow. There was some good research out of the UK that related the majority of lower cervical/upper thoracic issues to the pillow. I didn’t see anything listed in your comments about a pillow (maybe I missed that) but I would make sure that you are sized for an appropriate pillow as well.

-Jeff

Ok. Sounds good! Thank you mattresstogo!
Phoenix, we just went to Matelas Selection and found our favorite mattress there. Soon gonna go to Literie Provinciale and do the same. Our confusion is dissipating.

Hi Pegabo,

Jeff already made some good comments about the adjustment period which would be part of any new sleeping system and there is also some information about the break in and adjustment period in post #3 here as well

I certainly wouldn’t purchase a mattress that your testing didn’t give you some reasonable confidence that it would be a suitable choice for you and if you aren’t confident that it’s a good “match” for you in terms of PPP then I would make sure that you are comfortable with the options you have after a purchase to make any fine tuning changes to the mattress that may be necessary or to return or exchange it just in case your choice doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for.

I would also keep in mind that you can always add additional softness and pressure relief to a mattress that is too firm by adding a topper but it’s much more difficult to “firm up” a mattress that is too soft without removing and replacing the layers that are too soft so as Jeff also mentioned when you are considering two mattresses that both seem similar then it’s generally best to err on the side of the one that is slightly firmer.

Post #2 here has more about the different ways to choose a suitable mattress that is the best “match” for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) that can help you assess and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for that are involved in each of them.

Hopefully you will end up with a few good “finalists” to choose between and I’m looking forward to finding out what you end up deciding.

Phoenix

Alright, so at Matelas Selection the price was about $2200 for a king size with the following construction:
2" aqua gel foam
2" Talalay 28 ILD
1-1/4" 50W foam
4-3/4" Foam core HR 38.
(Originally the core was 6" at 38 but they suggested that to soften things up, they’ll make it 4-3/4" and replace the top 1-1/4 of the core with a 50W layer)
I know you addressed the aqua gel in this thread but I’ve got 2 more questions: how is the temperature regulation like for that material? How long do you think the aqua gel will last? Will it be minimally impacted during your 10 year rule of thumb period? I am expecting the layers below to outlast it, but I hope it won’t be a 5-year life.

What we like about Matelas Selection is the construction of gel over latex and the fact that carry 28 ILD and this gel foam. This allows for a bouncy mattress, the correct level of firmness for us and it is very adjustable in case of comfort guarantee activation, plus they seem like people that would adjust the mattress with a smile. They have the largest selection of latex ILDs out of all the places we visited. The other way to implement the same thing would have been their gel over poly over springs option (also mentioned on this site before) but the girlfriend and the guy who helped us both pointed to the foam + latex construction.

Literie Provincale are also nice people and the mattresses are quite cheaper and they’re very knowledgeable about the industry’s history, practices, financial situation and more. But I find that their approach is more conservative. They’ve been using the same constructions for decades (which is a good thing, but conservative), they seem biased toward keeping these constructions, and they also have somewhat of a bias toward European ‘practices’ or ‘styles’ as well as more breathable and natural materials. More purists, in a way. Unfortunately this comes with side effects, which includes them not carrying with aqua gel but, more importantly, not having a latex ILD that is somewhere between 21 and 36. We only feel good with 36 far out in the core, and 21 is too soft for us in the comfort layers.

I do have questions relating to the materials mentioned above: in 100% natural talalay is there some kind of financial reason why a mattress manufacturer would carry 21 & 36 ILD but nothing in the middle like 28 and 32?

Pegabo

Hi Pegabo,

You can see my comments about gel materials and temperature regulation in my reply in post #10 here.

I would need to know the density of the aqua gel to be able to make any meaningful comments about the durability of the material or the mattress as a whole (see the quality/density guidelines here).

There could be many reasons for this which could include that they may believe that they don’t need that many ILD’s to design different mattresses that would be suitable for the majority of their customer base (they could use layer thickness instead of layer firmness for example or different combinations of materials to adjust the softness/firmness of their mattresses) or they may not wish to carry that many different ILD’s in their inventory or believe it’s necessary (which of course would involve some costs), or their preferred supplier may not have the full range of ILD’s available (and other suppliers may be more costly). These are really questions that only they can answer though.

Phoenix

Thanks, that was a lot of info about gel, wow. I think we’re willing to take the uncertainty that comes with this material. Did you also get my private message?

Pegabo

Hi Pegabo,

If you mean the email you sent me with some of your thoughts and opinions about one of the Quebec manufacturers then yes I did … although I didn’t see any questions in it so I didn’t think you wanted a reply.

Phoenix

Ya, I didn’t need an answer to those comments. So we ended up closing the deal with the above mentioned mattress at matelas selection. Very nice people. Looking forward to it…

They seemed very confident about the gel memory foam . They said it’s 4lbs, it should be good for 15 years, and that warranty covers indentation.