for comparison you might also try 19/36/28 but I’m not sure you will like it given your previous experience. At the very least it allows you to rule something out.
It’s a Queen mattress that we are building. I’ll try to work out that mid layer as it could very well just need shaken out.
We have not purchased a cover yet, we are just using the stretch cotton cover that the 3" 19ILD topper came with and a mattress protector.
I do feel like my shoulders/hips push through the 19ILD layer, but in a good, cradling way. I’m not sure how far I go into the 28ILD layer at this time, but I don’t believe it is enough to allow the full support of my mid back. I don’t really feel a HARD bottom out, everything seems to transition well.
As for the pain, it’s a deep back pain at my torso’s most narrow point about 6 hours after falling asleep. I’ll generally wake up and start tossing/turning trying to find relief for the following hour or two until I call it quits.
No pain or pressure points on my pointy bits at any time, only the back pain. Sleeping position is still shoulder rolled forward on my side. In terms of support/sinking in, I feel like my hips and shoulders do sink in enough, but the narrow point of my side where I get the pain feels partially supported.
[quote=“lantern71 post=90922”]
I would caution your plan of action. When making changes, try to swap one thing at a time and like for like so as to introduce as few variables as possible. I.E. swap talalay for talalay and dunlop for dunlop, keeping brands consistent if possible. At least until you have more data points work off of. You might also find that adding/subtracting 1" increments has a relatively small change and might be geared toward fine tuning. Doesn’t sound like you are at that point. I’ll refrain from any more suggestions until you report back.[/quote]
The current plan is to try flipping the 28ILD and the 19ILD for a week if we can take it. If we don’t see any improvement, we were going to add a 1" 19ILD Dunlop layer at the bottom of the 3" 19ILD Talalay layer to see if that does anything. Talalay isn’t available in 1" toppers as far as I know so we figured Dunlop was a safe bet for a transition layer. We could try a 5" 19ILD Full Talalay comfort layer, but most of the posts from experienced members discourage 5" comfort layers.
Tests:
Swap comfort and mid layer (28 + 19 + 36)
Add a 1" 19ILD Dunlop layer between the top and mid layer.(3" 19T + 1" 19D + 3" 28T + 3" 36T) ($140 w/ 30 day returns)
Future options:
Add a 2" 28ILD layer to make the mid 5" of 28ILD. ($280 w/ no returns)
Comfort exchange the 36ILD support layer for 32 or 28ILD. ($100 exchange fee within 60 days)
We have not purchased a cover yet, we are just using the stretch cotton cover that the 3" 19ILD topper came with and a mattress protector.
I do feel like my shoulders/hips push through the 19ILD layer, but in a good, cradling way. I’m not sure how far I go into the 28ILD layer at this time, but I don’t believe it is enough to allow the full support of my mid back. I don’t really feel a HARD bottom out, everything seems to transition well.
As for the pain, it’s a deep back pain at my torso’s most narrow point about 6 hours after falling asleep. I’ll generally wake up and start tossing/turning trying to find relief for the following hour or two until I call it quits.
No pain or pressure points on my pointy bits at any time, only the back pain. Sleeping position is still shoulder rolled forward on my side. In terms of support/sinking in, I feel like my hips and shoulders do sink in enough, but the narrow point of my side where I get the pain feels partially supported. [/quote]
How does the mattress feel when you first climb into bed? Ok? Lacking in any respect?
I think your immediate goal should be to determine if the lack of support in the torso area, and resulting back pain, is being caused by sinking in too much or too little. Hopefully you can get enough clues using the latex you have on hand.
The onset of back pain in the early morning points to a configuration that is too soft and allows the hips to sink in too much. The muscles spend all night compensating for the lack of support. After several hours the muscles fatigue and the result is back pain. The lack of pressure points and the fact that you don’t feel like you are bottoming out on a firmer layer below has thinking too soft rather than too firm. But I could be wrong.
The shoulder is throwing me for a loop. It is possible you are rolling the shoulder forward because the mattress does not provide enough travel for it to sink in completely. This in turn could cause alignment problems. If this was the case I would expect some discomfort/pressure because you would be running aground on the firmer latex below. You said you don’t have any pressure points though. Maybe it’s not an issue?
Give the 28/19/36 a try for a few nights. Hopefully it provides insight into which direction you need to go. It’s also worth spending 30-120 min on 28/36 and 19/36/28 configurations. I would expect both to feel rather firm but the goal is contrast and more data points.
[quote=“nick7790 post=90924”][quote=“lantern71 post=90922”]
I would caution your plan of action. When making changes, try to swap one thing at a time and like for like so as to introduce as few variables as possible. I.E. swap talalay for talalay and dunlop for dunlop, keeping brands consistent if possible. At least until you have more data points work off of. You might also find that adding/subtracting 1" increments has a relatively small change and might be geared toward fine tuning. Doesn’t sound like you are at that point. I’ll refrain from any more suggestions until you report back.[/quote]
The current plan is to try flipping the 28ILD and the 19ILD for a week if we can take it. If we don’t see any improvement, we were going to add a 1" 19ILD Dunlop layer at the bottom of the 3" 19ILD Talalay layer to see if that does anything. Talalay isn’t available in 1" toppers as far as I know so we figured Dunlop was a safe bet for a transition layer. We could try a 5" 19ILD Full Talalay comfort layer, but most of the posts from experienced members discourage 5" comfort layers.
Tests:
Swap comfort and mid layer (28 + 19 + 36)
Add a 1" 19ILD Dunlop layer between the top and mid layer.(3" 19T + 1" 19D + 3" 28T + 3" 36T) ($140 w/ 30 day returns)
Future options:
Add a 2" 28ILD layer to make the mid 5" of 28ILD. ($280 w/ no returns)
Comfort exchange the 36ILD support layer for 32 or 28ILD. ($100 exchange fee within 60 days)[/quote]
The concern here is that if your discomfort is being cause by a mattress that is too soft, swapping the support layer for 32ild or adding to the overall thickness of the mattress will only make things worse. Hopefully experimentation in the coming days will give you some insight into whether to need to go firmer or softer.
[quote=“lantern71 post=90926”]How does the mattress feel when you first climb into bed? Ok? Lacking in any respect?
I think your immediate goal should be to determine if the lack of support in the torso area, and resulting back pain, is being caused by sinking in too much or too little. Hopefully you can get enough clues using the latex you have on hand.
The onset of back pain in the early morning points to a configuration that is too soft and allows the hips to sink in too much. The muscles spend all night compensating for the lack of support. After several hours the muscles fatigue and the result is back pain. The lack of pressure points and the fact that you don’t feel like you are bottoming out on a firmer layer below has thinking too soft rather than too firm. But I could be wrong.
The shoulder is throwing me for a loop. It is possible you are rolling the shoulder forward because the mattress does not provide enough travel for it to sink in completely. This in turn could cause alignment problems. If this was the case I would expect some discomfort/pressure because you would be running aground on the firmer latex below. You said you don’t have any pressure points though. Maybe it’s not an issue?
Give the 28/19/36 a try for a few nights. Hopefully it provides insight into which direction you need to go. It’s also worth spending 30-120 min on 28/36 and 19/36/28 configurations. I would expect both to feel rather firm but the goal is contrast and more data points.[/quote]
I’m going to mix and match with what we have, and see what we can come up with. I believe the comfort exchange is a cross-ship style so I would get the layer before I send the old one back. I am curious as to what a 2-3" 19ILD + 6" 28ILD would feel like.
The shoulder rolling thing started for a few reasons:
I was sleeping ontop of my arms and would get occasional numbness with our old mattress and the Roma.
When we had the Roma (28/38), I felt like I slept ontop of the mattress and would only make it 2-3 hours before waking up with much worse full back pain. Rolling my shoulder to sleep more on my side allowed me to get a bit further before waking up and I just never changed my sleeping style.
I may need to revisit a neutral side sleep position with my shoulders straight and see how that goes.
[quote=“nick7790 post=90927”]
I am curious as to what a 2-3" 19ILD + 6" 28ILD would feel like.[/quote]
You will sink in more. You can test the waters by folding the 28 layer you have in half and putting the 19ild over it.
Seems like you want a softer setup and to sink in more. What is driving that? Maybe I am missing something in your initial feedback?
[quote=“lantern71 post=90929”][quote=“nick7790 post=90927”]
I am curious as to what a 2-3" 19ILD + 6" 28ILD would feel like.[/quote]
You will sink in more. You can test the waters by folding the 28 layer you have in half and putting the 19ild over it.
Seems like you want a softer setup and to sink in more. What is driving that? Maybe I am missing something in your initial feedback?[/quote]
My thoughts are that I need to sink deeper into supportive foam so my side is properly supported instead of feeling like foam is barely touching it. This stems from the Roma experience where a 3" 28/3" 38 setup with 1.5" of polyfoam ontop was excruciating to sleep on.
I’m going to try firmer configs again to verify, but am fairly certain I need to sink in more. I think more 19ILD might be too soft and unsupportive though. That’s why I mentioned 6" of 28ILD under the 19ILD layer.
I can see that after the Roma. Can you clarify if the new setup feels exactly the same as the Roma. Do you have any gaps between your torso and the mattress? Can you easily slide your hand between your torso and the mattress? I got the impression that you were sinking in ok on the new setup.
The worry with a 6" base of 28ild is that there is nothing firmer below to stop you from sinking in too much. Definitely give it a try to see what happens. Might want to compare with the 28ild folded in half length wise over the 36ild. Should help you figure out if you need more or less support.
[quote=“lantern71 post=90934”][quote=“nick7790 post=90933”]
My thoughts are that I need to sink deeper into supportive foam so my side is properly supported instead of feeling like foam is barely touching it. This stems from the Roma experience where a 3" 28/3" 38 setup with 1.5" of polyfoam ontop was excruciating to sleep on. [/quote]
I can see that after the Roma. Can you clarify if the new setup feels exactly the same as the Roma. Do you have any gaps between your torso and the mattress? Can you easily slide your hand between your torso and the mattress? I got the impression that you were sinking in ok on the new setup.
The worry with a 6" base of 28ild is that there is nothing firmer below to stop you from sinking in too much. Definitely give it a try to see what happens. Might want to compare with the 28ild folded in half length wise over the 36ild. Should help you figure out if you need more or less support.[/quote]
So, the 36/28/19 9" stack does have conform well to my side, but it feels to soft/squishy to be supportive. I have to wiggle my hand to get it inbetween the mattress and the low spot on my side, but it isn’t difficult at all.
Made some other progress with testing:
3" 36 + 3" 28 + 4" 19 = same if not worse mid back hammocking pain. So it doesn’t look like softer is the answer.
3" 36 + 3" 19 + 3" 28 = the support seemed much better on top, but woke up many times through the night with a different pain like my back was hammocking the other way and had a pressure point at the low spot of my side. I’m wondering if that soft under the medium is allowing too much contouring to the point of causing hot spots. Fit was tight against my side.
I’m going to try 3" 36 + 3" 19 + 3" 28 + 1" 19 next, to see if that helps with hot spots.
I did briefly try the 28 folded over with the 36 below and I thought it felt pretty good. Couldn’t lay on it long enough to tell though. I’ll try to revisit that when I have some more time, but this is at least giving me some direction. I have a feeling that the 3" 19ILD is just too much squish and we need something like 3" 36 + 5" 28 + 1-2" 19".
I know I’m a little late to the party but having been through alot of this myself I figured I might be able to provide a few comments that could be helpful. Now at around 6’2 and 185lbs that 28T medium layer is a bit soft for what you likely need for proper support. Really you should have something more like what I’ve outlined below (I would also stick with all talalay layers since you are having conformity issues).
2-3" Soft (19ILD) - Comfort Layer
3" Firm (32 ILD) - Support Layer
3" XFirm (36 ILD) - Support Layer
3" SFirm (44 ILD) - Support Layer
If you find that doesn’t work or you just really wanted to have this be a one and done fix then I’d suggest trying Flobeds V-zone (Medium) layer as the top support layer (instead of the 32ILD layer). It’s quite expensive but I guarantee it will fix any support issues due to the huge number of combinations you can set up to create the perfect alignment. You may still want to try other options since mine was a pretty extreme case (I really struggled to get a setup that provided both alignment and pressure relief at around 6’2 and 250lbs with athletic build) but I wanted to throw that out there in case that might be of interest.
Components for FloBeds | Buy a Replacement Latex Mattress Core, Cover & More Bed Components for FloBeds (scroll down to the vZone Natural Talalay Premium Core Layer section)
[quote=“Mattrebuild post=91055”]I know I’m a little late to the party but having been through alot of this myself I figured I might be able to provide a few comments that could be helpful. Now at around 6’2 and 185lbs that 28T medium layer is a bit soft for what you likely need for proper support. Really you should have something more like what I’ve outlined below (I would also stick with all talalay layers since you are having conformity issues).
2-3" Soft (19ILD) - Comfort Layer
3" Firm (32 ILD) - Support Layer
3" XFirm (36 ILD) - Support Layer
3" SFirm (44 ILD) - Support Layer
If you find that doesn’t work or you just really wanted to have this be a one and done fix then I’d suggest trying Flobeds V-zone (Medium) layer as the top support layer (instead of the 32ILD layer). It’s quite expensive but I guarantee it will fix any support issues due to the huge number of combinations you can set up to create the perfect alignment. You may still want to try other options since mine was a pretty extreme case (I really struggled to get a setup that provided both alignment and pressure relief at around 6’2 and 250lbs with athletic build) but I wanted to throw that out there in case that might be of interest.
Components for FloBeds | Buy a Replacement Latex Mattress Core, Cover & More Bed Components for FloBeds (scroll down to the vZone Natural Talalay Premium Core Layer section)[/quote]
We may need to go down that road at some point, but I’m not at the point where I think It’s necessary. Firmer suggestions keep getting tossed around. Problem is that we have been firmer and it was by far the worst experience so far. 1.5" foam + 3" 30ILD + 3" 40ILD dunlop, my wife an I both couldn’t stand it. She is much more resilient than I with mattresses, but even she hated that mattress’s firmness. Perhaps that was too thin a mattress to offer enough sink in and support for the firmness level.
Either way, I ended up ordering a 2" 28ILD piece for further experimentation. 3" 36 + 5" 28 + 1-2" 19" is our next test. 9-10" overall, with still a firm base layer but a bit more mid to work with. I have no idea if it’s the right move, but it’s splitting the difference between too firm and too soft so we shall see.
I would be generally shocked if something like 3" 36 + 3" 32 + 2" 28" + 1" 19 is what we needed, if not exactly what you suggested. I really hesitate to say firmer, but maybe that 11-12" stack of firmer latex would be a totally different game from the Roma mattress we had. (1.5" foam + 3" 30ILD + 3" 40ILD dunlop)
Dunlop and talalay have very different characteristics so if you are experiencing conformity issues (ie your body parts don’t travel into the mattress enough to allow support in other areas) then you should be sticking to talaay layers only. If you and your wife tried a firmer dunlop bed and hated it I can can tell you talalay in a similar firmness will feel completely different. That other mattress wasn’t very deep either so my suggestion would be to aim for an 11-12" mattress to give you enough travel to provide the support you need. Now I’m not saying you can always fix deflection issues with simply changing layer materials from dunlop to talalay (mine was a good example of this where even with a deeper mattress I had to resort to an expensive solution such as zoning) but I can say it would be a big mistake to only base your support layer decisions on experience with dunlop alone. If you wanted to try bare bones you could got down to a 19T/32T/36T for your side and see how that feels. You could also do some basic zoning with a 19T or 28T (in the 32ILD layer) depending on what areas were causing issues. Lots of possibilities anyway.
[quote=“nick7790 post=91054”]
Made some other progress with testing:
3" 36 + 3" 28 + 4" 19 = same if not worse mid back hammocking pain. So it doesn’t look like softer is the answer. [/quote] agreed.
[quote=“nick7790 post=91054”]
3" 36 + 3" 19 + 3" 28 = the support seemed much better on top, but woke up many times through the night with a different pain like my back was hammocking the other way and had a pressure point at the low spot of my side. I’m wondering if that soft under the medium is allowing too much contouring to the point of causing hot spots. Fit was tight against my side.[/quote]
I am not clear what you mean when you say your back was “hammocking the other way?”
Separately, hot spots could be from having firmer latex on top. Although it may be more supportive, the tradeoff is less pressure relief.
[quote=“nick7790 post=91054”]
I did briefly try the 28 folded over with the 36 below and I thought it felt pretty good. Couldn’t lay on it long enough to tell though. I’ll try to revisit that when I have some more time, but this is at least giving me some direction. I have a feeling that the 3" 19ILD is just too much squish and we need something like 3" 36 + 5" 28 + 1-2" 19".[/quote]
In your response to Mattrebuild I saw you ordered an additional 2" 28ild. Not sure how that will play out but It might depend on how thick the 19ild layer above it is. At 6’1 185 lbs I personally found 6" 28ild talalay over 36ild dunlop to be supportive enough for my hips but my upper body, being lighter, did not sink in enough, causing alignment problems in the upper back. I also had some hot spots. I also tried this configuration with an addilditional 3" 19ild talalay on top which made everything too soft to offer proper support. Point being, when you receive the new layer you should test varying thicknesses (0-3") of 19ild for the top layer to see what happens.
Another option would be to replace the 19ild with 24ild for the comfort layer on top. The idea is it is still soft enough to offer pressure relief but not so soft you go right through it. This is where I am at right now in my mattress testing.
I know you are hesitant to go firmer, but Mattrebuild’s suggestion is a decent one. 12" of latex can be very different compared to 9", let alone the 6"+foam you had in the Roma. I would be curious to hear what Mattresbuild thinks of the two configurations below compared to his original suggestion. I may end up having to go this route myself.
2-3" Soft (19ILD) - Comfort Layer
3" Firm (32 ILD) - Support Layer
3" XFirm (32 ILD) - Support Layer
3" SFirm (36 ILD) - Support Layer
2-3" Soft (19ILD) - Comfort Layer
3" Firm (32 ILD) - Support Layer
3" XFirm (36 ILD) - Support Layer
3" SFirm (36 ILD) - Support Layer
I’ve been taking my time with testing and giving the layers a fair shot before moving anything around as of late. So far I’ve come to the consensus that the 3" slab of 19ILD Talalay is near useless. We sink right through it and I don’t think it’s a viable layer in our stack.
We’re currently on 1" 19ILD Dunlop + 5" 28ILD Talalay (3" from APM + 2" from LMF) + 3" 36ILD.
Bed definitely feels a little firmer, but not in a bad way. I THINK it’s better, but cannot tell. I’m still trying to isolate exactly where my pain is and if it’s posture related. I’ve had 2 completely pain free nights in the last 20 days but I can’t figure out how I was laying those nights. I’m so groggy when I wake up from that deep sleep that I forget how I was.
I think for right now I’m pumping the brakes a bit with adjustments. I have contemplated a 2-3" 38+ Dunlop base layer to play around with, but I’m not sure what direction I want to take just yet. 2-3" of 24ILD would be interesting but I never found somewhere that had it other than the Dunlop at diynaturalbedding for near the same price as a zoned layer. I’d probably go down the zoned layer route before dropping near $500 for a single 3" layer.
Where have you found 24ILD to be available?
Have to agree that 19ild seems like a poor choice for individuals my size and larger. I don’t understand how it gets recommended so frequently but maybe I am in the minority.
I was able to order 24ild blended talalay (Talalay Global) through Flexus. I am still waiting for it to come in but I am concerned it will not solve my problem. Another individual on the forum recently received the same product and it ended up being on the softer end of the range at 22-23ild. I am keeping my fingers crossed that the layer I receive ends up at the target ild or slightly firmer. It will be at least a few weeks until I can report back, but I’ll let you know how things turn out.
Regardless I think you previously mentioned Flexus was unwilling place additional special orders due to supply chain issues. However, I believe Flexus regularly stocks dunlop in 25ild. If you are looking for talalay you would have to call vendors and see if they are willing to special order. You can also ask about blended talalay from Radium Foam. Radium’s product have to be imported from Europe, which has been an issue from what I hear, but they do make a blended talalay with a target ild of 25.7.
Hmm. I’ll check into those options to see if a ~24ILD is viable, but I’m leaning towards zoning as time goes on. I have an email out to flobeds for some ILD information as well.
Just a few comments that might help.
I’m actually using a 2" layer of natural 22ILD talalay along with my 2" Flobeds convoluted topper and that seems to do the trick of providing enough pressure relief (as long as the alignment is good) on the comfort layer for both my wife and myself. Not sure this will work for everyone as a comfort layer setup but I mention it just so people have design options.
I know you’ve been focused on getting the perfect layer of firmness on your design but have you thought about about what the plan is if you have to replace it in the future for some reason? I would be curious what kind of issues this might cause trying to get it perfect again later. I only mention this since that limitation was one of the reasons that drove me towards using zoning rather than single layers (the other being the performance capabilities of talalay for a given ILD). I’m all for simpler/cheaper designs but I also see being able to replace or change different sections of the mattress at will as a huge design benefit in both perfromance and maintenance of any mattress. I initially was going to do all the cutting/zoning myself on my design but then I decided to try the easy route and see if Flobeds system couldn’t fix my issue with alot less hassle. I knew it wasn’t going to be cheap but I had made this decision before I even realized they have the same guarantee with the zoning layer as they do with the rest of the mattress (ie free layer exchange). Once you crunch the numbers on how many different ILDs you’d need and the cost of buying full 3" talalay layers to cut up suddenly you realize this system was way more economical than I originally thought (exception might be if you don’t need many ILD options). I figured I would throw out my own experience of going through the design process as something you may wish to consider anyway.
From what I understand the Radium foam is still extremely hard to get (not sure who is even selling it now in the US) and most of the major mattress names on here moved over to using TG during the pandemic since they just couldn’t get any product from Radium due to ongoing supply chain problems.
I know you recommend that previously in one of my other posts but for now I’m sticking to the kiss principle. I am fortunate enough to be able to test different classes figurations locally and I have recently coming to the conclusion I just need a firmer setup/more support top to bottom. it has taken about 6 months but I am alo physically adapting to a firmer feel. I have been able to get the additional travel/ability to sink in by go from 3 to 4 layers. Haven’t quite worked everything out but getting close.
That’s great news you’re close to solving it. Lucky you have the ability to try stuff locally and very smart to add another layer to give yourself more travel. You don’t have to sell me on the KISS principle, I’m right there with you (I tried but just didn’t work in my case). Anyone who’s been down this DIY route knows it often takes alot of patience and perseverence to really get it perfect for their specicfic needs. Hopefully that new layer comes in soon to complete your setup and get things just right for you.
It’s been a little while since I updated on this topic. Not much has changed though. I’m still using the 1" 19ILD Dunlop + 5" 28ILD Talalay (3" from APM + 2" from LMF) + 3" 36ILD and still having the same mid to lower mid back pain. Its worth noting that if I can get a small travel pillow under the middle of my back, I sleep with no pain. I also know that we need a thicker mattress, I’m just trying to weigh my options.
Today, I thought I had come to a conclusive next step when FloBeds was having a 22% off sale, but had a wake up call when a kind sales associate called to check and make sure I knew I was only ordering HALF of a layer. It seems that with the $500 queen price tag I assumed that it was for a complete queen size 3" layer and it is in fact half. Even with 22%, it’s still $800 plus shipping for a single 3" layer. I’m not prepared to spend that much to go that route just yet as I want something replaceable and I don’t know how long FloBeds will be around to offer replacement zones(Which are $50-100 a piece per side).
So I guess it’s down to another 3" 28ILD Dunlop or Talalay slab that will go above my 36ILD. I thought about trying to hunt down a 24-25ILD, but I don’t think that is the right direction.
I can totally sympathize with your situation and the sticker shock that one adjustable king size layer could retail for $1200 (I got mine on sale too) but having looked at my options I can tell you it’s still a heck of a deal. The alternative is to buy 3" talalay layers of each firmness (@ $300ea), figure out where the zones need to be and cut them yourself. I almost went this route but in the end I’m so glad I didn’t because little did I know at the time but Flobeds will replace any of those zones in your V-zone layer for the warranty period (20 years). So in my case I needed 4 more zones to try and get my alignment correct so I just called them up and they sent those layers (over $400 worth) to me free. You really can’t beat this setup for adjustability and when you factor in the free adjustment pieces for that long it becomes a complete no brainer. Now even if Flobeds did somehow go out of business and you needed a replacement section you could always buy a 3" layer and cut it yourself or try to buy leftovers (pieces leftover from cutting) to make it work again. Anyway just wanted to share since I went through the same thing not long ago.