Swimming in info - please help. ECO-mattress hunting...or not?

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
26

Hi lnr103,

The PLB all natural mattresses are certainly high quality mattresses but they may be in a more premium price range compared to other manufacturers that use the same type of latex in their mattresses and unfortunately your experience with the salesperson is far too common in the industry. It’s good to see that you are doing the kind of testing that can give you a good sense of which type of latex you prefer.

You can read the approximate ILD range in post #2 here although they may have changed slightly since they started using Radium Talalay. An “exact” match may not be possible without duplicating the exact ILD which they don’t provide (and which may vary in the case of Dunlop anyway which isn’t made to exact ILD’s) but a close approximation would be possible yes with a mattress that also had the same type and blend of latex in the same thickness layers and the same firmness range and a similar wool quilted cover.

This is really a matter of personal preference and you will find that like you many people prefer a wool quilted cover and some who prefer sleeping on a stretch knit cover where they are closer to the latex. You can read a little more about wool quilting in post #6 here.

Both Dunlop and Talalay have 100% natural versions and blended versions. There is more about the different types and blends of latex in post #6 here. You won’t be able to find out the exact formulation of either 100% natural Talalay or Dunlop in terms of what percentage of each is actual latex and what percentage is other substances used to make the latex because the formulation is proprietary to the manufacturer but both of them use only natural rubber and no SBR so I don’t think you could really call one more “pure” than the other and both of them would be Oeko-Tex certified for harmful substances and VOC’s so I also wouldn’t consider one to be “safer” than the other.

Phoenix

27

Holy Cow!! this is my 28th post! :dry:

A Savvy Rest representative on their website gave me these specs via email. Thought it would be helpful to share the info he provided.

[i]"Pasted below are the ILD ranges for our Dunlop. We don’t have ILD ranges for our Talalay, they just come in soft, medium, or firm.

ILD Ranges:

Soft Dunlop: 22-30

Medium Dunlop: 31-39
Firm Dunlop: 40 and above

You can read about our latex suppliers here: What's Different About Savvy Rest?. All latex comes from outside of the USA, as it comes from the rubber tree which only grows within 700 miles of the equator.

There is no brand name for the latex we use.

Currently our mattresses only come with the quilted encasement. We have a new topper that’s supposed to be out by the end of this month in which the casing will be knitted.

We do not have the option of adding race-tracking.

Per your other email, combining a Talalay topper with the Earthspring is certainly an option, though if it’s going to be a queen size (we do not make the Earthspring in King size) and include a foundation it will end up being well over $2,200."
[/i]

I also spoke to a rep from flobeds.com who has been very helpful and informative… Yet I’m still left with more questions.

They only sell Talalay so mimicking the Savvy Rest Serenity we really like is kinda out of the question. They have a Deluxe 12 inch mattress that has three 3" layers plus a 2" convolute (egg crate) and 1" of wool cover. Their XFirm Talalay is 36 ILD. Their convolute starts as a 28 ILD (medium-firm) which when convoluted feels more like a 14 ILD

They do not sell Dunlop but if after trying their mattress, we don’t like it they can replace a layer with Dunlop for us and just charge shipping (if within the first 100 days). Charge would be the same as for the talalay.

Initially they suggested a base layer of XFirm with Firm on top of that and then Medium all topped by their supersoft 2" convolute:

^^^^^^^^^ convolute
======= medium
======= firm
======= xfirm

Then they suggested my husband get firm over ultra firm and for me I should get soft over medium. I find that interesting since we both tend to love the same mattresses. Then they suggested medium over firm for my husband and medium over soft for me. I’m concerned that if I’m able to muster up the money to buy this mattress that I could likely make a very wrong choice on the layers since there’s no way to try it out and the suggestions are all over the place

Also their top layer is a super soft convolute/eggcrate. My only experience with eggcrates was with cheap polyfoam in college and mine was quickly given away. Felt terrible. Even worse than skinny springy dorm room mattresses. :-/ We’ve never liked pillow tops either. Do people really like a convoluted comfort layer? I understand the benefit if you’re elderly, malnourished, just had an operation or are very ill but for a healthy couple in their 30s? What’s your opinion? He did say that if after trying the convoluted I dont like it that they could replace it with a solid 2" layer.

Cost:
$3,299 includes a Deluxe 12" mattress with an Organic Cotton European Strecth-knit quilted to Organic Wool cover surrounding 100% Natural Talalay Latex

Does not include the foundation

Sigh… I’m in so far over my head.

I’m beginning to think its simply not possible to buy even a semi natural good quality king for under 2200. We might need to go back to the drawing board. I’m going too check out your link to savvy rest specs. Hopefully I can pull all this info together and regroup.

28

Hi Lnr103,

Welcome to wanting mattress perfection :wink: I’m now building my second bed (I can see it now, I’ll change which bed I sleep in depending on which feel I prefer that night), having bought so many materials to try experimenting with different feels, firmnesses, and layerings on my first bed I have most of the second already and think I should do something useful with them.

Nevertheless, to stay in around the $2k mark for an all latex king mattress, you’re probably not going to be able to go with a brand such as Savvy Rest or FloBeds. You can probably do it via websites such as SleepEZ.com or mattresses.net, maybe local retailers, although there are others too and those are really just the first 2 I know off the top of my head - I believe Phoenix posted about them.

When I’ve bought bare latex or been quoted, I find I’ve had to pay around $100 per 1" of latex in twinxl size, and twinxl is precisely one half a king size. I live in Canada, so it’s a bit more expensive. Therefore, I’d expect around $200 or less per inch of latex on a king (either organic dunlop or blended talalay).

For a 9" mattress, that’s around $1800 in latex. A quality organic stretch knit cotton cover is probably 300-400… A more elaborate cover with wool probably twice that (or more). 9" is a fairly popular depth. Some people prefer the simple stretch knit cotton (in fact I’m ordering a second one of these for a second bed, which is $165 for a twinxl so king would usually be double that).

Your original question that I heard was, could you get a king latex mattress for $2200, and based on prices I’ve paid I know can be done… More easily in the USA. But, I don’t think you can get all of a brand name latex, 12" thick all latex, with a wool case, and a base/foundation.

29

Ha. So it can be done! :wink:

I can see myself literally trying to build my own mattress here soon as well! Kinda sounds like fun, if you have the materials. I’m becoming OCD in this mattress hunt. Had I simply purchased a mattress the first day i walked into the store I probably wouldn’t have been too disappointed or spent nearly this much money but now Ive invested the time and know too much about the chemicals i want to avoid and i suppose i do want this so called “mattress perfection”. Im hooked!

Appreciate your feedback sincerely. :slight_smile:

I’m definitely learning a great deal.

30

….just not with a foundation, wool cover etc

31

Hi Lnr103,

They can add up quickly when you’re having fun :slight_smile:

Yes people like it (it’s included in most of their mattresses). You can read a little more about their convoluted layer in post #2 here (in reply to question #4) and in post #12 here but it’s one of the unique parts of their mattresses. It would be softer than the 28 ILD talalay that it’s made from because of the convoluting and it’s nothing like cheap polyfoam convoluted foam.

I should also mention that SleepEz has a similar three by 3" layer or four x 3" layer mattress that gives you the option to choose either blended or 100% natural Talalay or 100% natural Dunlop in each layer in a range of firmness levels and has a quilted cover so they are a very similar design and have similar (or more) options than Savvy Rest.

Even a latex mattress that uses 3" of the same type and ILD of latex on top and then has a 6" layer of 100% natural Dunlop in a similar firmness range and has a wool quilted cover would be somewhat similar to the Savvy Rest so you have some good options available to you in a lower budget range than the Savvy Rest you are looking at.

For reference … The attachment shows the Radium Talalay firmness levels (showing minimum, target, and maximum ILD for both their blended “W” series and their 100% natural “N” series Talalay) but I don’t know which of these Savvy Rest offers.

NOTE: These specs are now updated as of April 7th, 2014 and the blended Talalay are now the “S” series which has replaced the “W” series.

Phoenix

32

Quick question:
Are these specs for all radium talalay or are they specific to sleepEZ or savvy rest?

33

Quick question:
Are these specs for all radium talalay or are they specific to sleepEZ or savvy rest?

I’ve written to SleepEZ. Hopefully they will have some options for me.

Also, what do people think an innercoil mattress with say 1-2 layers of 3-4" talalay? First off does it exist. secondly, think it would still feel very much like an innercoil mattress or does the latex upper help buffer sound/movement and still add that somewhat contoured feel? I’m wondering if I can find a oeko tex latex/innercoil combination mattress that’s more within my budget that I’d be happy with. I really can’t spend more than the 2200. I’m already overextending. I’m hopeful with SleepEZ and a few other sites I’ve contacted so we shall see!

34

Hi Lnr103,

  1. Yes hybrid latex top + inner coil support (and also latex top + polyfoam support) mattresses exist.

  2. As a guess only, probably the best place to find a latex+innercoil mattress would be local retailers. The ones I know are all via my own local retailers or thecleanbedroom (which are all fairly premium priced).

  3. No idea how you’d perceive feel… You’d need to test one. I find latex+inner sping mattresses harder to find, personally.

  4. Talalay latex in North America is almost exclusively sourced from Latex International or Radium. The specs for the latex are common across all companies that use it. That said, as you found with Savvy Rest, many don’t/won’t disclose specific ild’s to prevent people from easily duplicating their mattresses. since ild is not a measure of quality or durability it’s not really important to determine it to evaluate the quality or durability of a mattress.

35

Hi Lnr103,

They came directly from Radium in Holland. Not all manufacturers will carry all the ILD’s.

Different people will have different preferences for the style of mattresses they like but an innerspring (often pocket coil) / latex hybrid is the favorite style of some of the most knowledgeable people I know in the industry who could choose any type of mattress they wished so there are certainly people who like it. It has the “feel” of latex in the comfort layers (which is a big part of what you feel on a mattress) but some of the familiarity and “feel” of a pocket coil underneath it.

In the list of online members linked in the tutorial post, Dreamfoam has an entry level pocket coil with a mix of latex and polyfoam in the comfort layers and BayBed & Mattress has a component pocket coil / latex component mattress where you can choose both the specifics of the pocket coil and the layers of latex on top of it and which comes in a zip cover so the components and layers can be exchanged. As dn mentioned there may also be some innerspring/latex hybrid options available locally as well. All the latex you are likely to encounter is likely to be Oeko-Tex certified whether it’s Dunlop or Talalay, blended or 100% natural.

Phoenix

36

I’ve made a summary of my current latex options. I’m planning to research latex innercoil combos as well this weekend. Hopefully I can find one to test in my area. But as for now at least I have an option or two within budget. Spindle Mattress has been really informative and helpful and also offered the best deal. I’m curious what other’s experiences have been with them and if their product is up to par. BrooklynBeds is fairly close behind them but you get a lot less latex for your money.

Options:

Spindle Mattress:

(Prices include shipping and wool cover. Foundation is additional $380)

Natural+Synthetic Blend Latex with Wool Cover (cover not washable)
10" $1499
13" $1749 + 380 = $2129
*If additionally discounted 5% for member = $2023

Natural Latex with Wool Cover (cover not washable)
10" $1649
13" $1999 + 380 = $2379
*If additionally discounted 5% for member = $2260

  1. Are your materials oeko-tex certified?
    Yes, both latexes are certified to Oeko-Tex 100.
  2. Is the cotton/wool blend fire resistant cover washable?
    No. In order for the wool to be washable, you need to chemically treat it.

Recommend the Natural + Synthetic Blend Latex with Wool Cover as closest comparison the the feel of the Savvy Rest Serenity

They do not use flame retardants or glues.
365 Comfort Exchange and 25 Year Limited Warranty.

BrooklynBeds:
10" $2449 (includes mattress, cotton/wool casing and foundation)
Dunlop base (ILD 36-44)
Medium Talalay (ILD 25-29)
100% Natural Latex, no chemicals, no fillers - Oeko Tex 100 certified
Includes foundation and wool/organic cotton cover

“Essence” in the deepest model offered in a natural latex model.
No FR
2 layer, 10" depth with
medium Dunlop latex support layer
and a choice of soft medium or firm Talalay latex comfort layer:

soft (20-24ILD)
medium (25-29ILD)
firm (30-34ILD).

All of our latex is Oeko Tex Certified
100% natural wool and organic cotton as a natural fire retardant.
Only available in a 2 layer
Dunlop range approximately 36-44ILD
“I would suggest the medium level Talalay latex of 25-29ILD this I believe would provide the best support along with comfort and pressure point relief available to best suit your needs.”

Arizona Premium Mattress Co. - MindSpring

12" E.King A.U.P. mattress - $2449 (includes foundation, bamboo/wool casing and $185 for shipping)

6"core is 32-33 ILD Medium or Firm 36-38
3" topper is N-4 30-34 ILD.
3"topper is N-2 20-24 ild

Both 100% Talalay from Radium Latex
Core is 100% Dunlop latex from Latex Green Ltd.

Bamboo custom mattress cover with zipper and no glue.

FloBeds:

$3299
12inch total depth - (11" latex plus 1" wool)
Deluxe 12 inch mattress that has three 3" all Talalay layers plus a 2" convolute (egg crate).
Convolute - 28 ILD (medium-firm) which when convoluted feels more like a 14 ILD
XFirm Talalay is 36 ILD
Organic Cotton European Strecth-knit quilted to Organic Wool cover surrounding 100% Natural Talalay Latex.

I think if you had a base layer of XFirm with Firm on top of that and then Medium all topped by our supersoft 2" convolute.
^^^^^^^^^ convolute
======= medium
======= firm
======= xfirm

Or

For your husband I would go with the Medium over Firm
^^^^^^^^^ convolute
======= Medium
======= Firm

For you I would go with the Medium over Soft
^^^^^^^^^ convolute
======= Medium
======= Soft

*You both will be able to change the firmness by rearranging the layers.

Option to exchange convolute for solid Talalay
Option to exchange Talalay base for Dunlop base
“We ask you to try our bed as designed with the convoluted latex layer on top. If you find that you wish you had a solid 2” layer, we will exchange it within the first 100 nights at no charge."

37

Hi Lnr103,

A forum search on Spindle (you can just click this) will bring up some feedback about them. Spindle is relatively new but Neal has some “deep roots” in the industry and I think highly of both him and their mattresses. The quality of their product is certainly “up to par”. They use either synthetic (with a small percentage of natural latex) or 100% natural continuous pour Dunlop made by MountainTop Foam which are both very good quality and durable materials (Note: Spindle is now only using 100% natural continuous pour Dunlop in their mattresses).

You are certainly looking at some great final choices and it would be difficult to make a “mistake” :slight_smile:

Phoenix

38

Hi Lnr103,

See it is possible :slight_smile: nice work!

39

Thanks dn and Phoenix.

I don’t know how I missed that spindle is 100% Dunlop. When they said they could replicate the savvy I guess I assumed talalay would be involved. I wonder if that’s why he’s suggesting the natural and synthetic blend. Perhaps it has a more similar feel to the talalay than 100% Dunlop.

I did a forum search on spindle as suggested. Seems people are initially pretty happy with them and everyone is right, they do have wonderful customer service thus far and have answers to all my questions. I’m curious how people’s satisfaction holds up after several nights of sleeping on their mattress. I have to say I thought it WAS too good to be true and now I’m concerned that I won’t like the feel of all Dunlop and synthetic scares me. I’m not sure I’m prepared to spend 2k on synthetics. A small percentage of synthetic is one thing but a mostly synthetic mattress… i just don’t know. I pushed my budget of 1400 to 2200 only because I became obsessed in finding a safe healthy all natural mattress. I wonder if its worth it. Then I go and add an expensive natural wool cover to a synthetic fiber. Seems kinda silly doesn’t it?

After reading reviews I would like to give Neal my business over brooklynbedding but is Brooklyn bedding’s “Essence” perhaps a better value because of the talalay layers? I’m still trying to mimic the feel of savvy rest’s medium Dunlop base (ILD 31-44), medium talalay core (N4 medium 30-34) and soft talalay top (N2 soft 20-24)

I know me and after investing all this time and $$ I’m worried that when the actual mattress is delivered I’m going to have very high expectations. :-/

40

Hi Lnr103,

The “feel” of a mattress is very subjective and relative to each person but continuous pour Dunlop is somewhat “in between” molded Dunlop and Talalay and can also be made in softer layers than you will usually find in Dunlop. Dunlop is a method of manufacturing not an actual raw material so any latex layer that uses the Dunlop method of production would be 100% Dunlop although it may use 100% natural rubber, 100% synthetic rubber, or a blend of the two. Of course using the same type of materials in the same layer thicknesses and firmness levels and the same type of cover would have higher odds of “matching” another mattress that used the same materials.

Natural materials and “safe” materials are two different issues. The “safety” of a material depends on the raw materials that are used to make it and whether any of them are harmful or produce VOC’s that are harmful although it’s true that in natural materials have higher odds of being “safer”. Polyethylene and densified polyester are two examples of synthetic materials that have very little VOC’s and are completely safe and latex that is synthetic or natural have both been tested for “safety” to the same standards and testing protocol for harmful substances and VOC’s. I think that the biggest difference between natural and synthetic latex or a blend is in the properties and performance of each type of latex and which one someone may prefer and “natural” or “organic” is more a matter of personal preference or choices made for other personal reasons than it is about “safety”.

The same holds true about a wool cover. The biggest benefit of wool is it’s properties, durability, and performance and it would be a great material to use in any cover for someone that preferred it regardless of what type of materials were inside the mattress so using a wool cover on any mattress doesn’t seem “silly” to me at all for those who want the temperature regulating benefits and the “feel and performance” of using a wool quilted cover.

The value of any mattress purchase depends on which one is the best match for all the criteria of your personal value equation that are most important to you … especially in terms of PPP. No matter what the “commodity value” of a mattress may be in terms of price per inch of material if you don’t sleep well on it then it would have little value to you. I would also consider that “matching” one mattress to another rather than matching each mattress you are considering to a common set of criteria can be very difficult and challenging because even small differences in materials, design, or the cover can make a difference in how one mattress “feels” compared to another (see post #9 here). I would keep in mind that if a mattress is a good match for you in terms of PPP and all the other criteria that are important to you in a mattress purchase and you have good options available after a purchase then you may end up with a “better” and more suitable mattress than the Savvy Rest that you never would have considered if you were limiting your choices only to mattresses that subjectively “feel like” a Savvy Rest.

I would also keep in mind that Savvy Rest uses Radium Talalay and that the firmness ratings you are mentioning (N2 and N4) are from when they were using Latex International.

Phoenix

41

All of you are absolutely amazing. I’m so happy I found this site.

42

I’ve narrowed it down to 2 (!) so I’m just trying to decide between spindle mattress which has proven to be outstanding with customer service - very knowledgable and seemingly transparent. I like that the website and my contact through email has been so honest and refreshing. So great customer service but materials I haven’t experienced yet. Great reviews though. (All continuous poor dunlop, four 3" layers soft, medium, firm firm OR soft medium medium firm)

Vs

Arizona premium aka mattresses.net which can offer me pretty much exactly what I’m asking for but brings me 200$ over budget and customer service has been borderline so-so. :frowning:

3" Soft talalay 20-24
3" Medium talalay 30-34
6" Firm dunlop 36-38

So still deciding…

I have a question though. It seems both places only offer the build your own foundations and I don’t mind putting it together myself but I’d really prefer it being a split foundation so I don’t have to rebuild it every time we move. We move frequently and I’m afraid it won’t last through constant taking apart/putting back together events.

Do you know of any places that offer decent SPLIT king foundations for under $400? Preferable with a nice cover and no FR? I’m assuming the covers on the spindle and Arizona premium foundations would match our mattress casing regarding no FR and certifications. Perhaps that’s a poor assumption.

They hadn’t mentioned offering two twin foundations at the same price of one king. I just saw that mentioned in another post. It would likely solve my problem.

Arizona premium actually initially recommended their metal foundation to stay in budget and they were pretty convincing but our mattress will be 12" thick and very very heavy. Plus I read your other posts on foundations and I don’t believe theirs has mesh wiring at all. I don’t want to damage our mattress after putting this much time energy and money into it. :-/

Thoughts?

Oh, one last thing. Anyone have any experience/opinions in the natural FR casings by either of these companies?

Spindle is cotton/wool blend.

Arizona Premium - mattresses.net is cotton/bamboo/wool blend

I’m curious if they’re tightly quilted or big pouffy quilts. If they’re big I’m wondering whether imprints/compression of the fibers or inability to get the true feel of the latex would be a concern.

On spindle mattress’ website the absconds cover looks so poufy.

43

Hi Lnr103,

[quote]I have a question though. It seems both places only offer the build your own foundations and I don’t mind putting it together myself but I’d really prefer it being a split foundation so I don’t have to rebuild it every time we move. We move frequently and I’m afraid it won’t last through constant taking apart/putting back together events.

Do you know of any places that offer decent SPLIT king foundations for under $400? Preferable with a nice cover and no FR? I’m assuming the covers on the spindle and Arizona premium foundations would match our mattress casing regarding no FR and certifications. Perhaps that’s a poor assumption.

They hadn’t mentioned offering two twin foundations at the same price of one king. I just saw that mentioned in another post. It would likely solve my problem.

Arizona premium actually initially recommended their metal foundation to stay in budget and they were pretty convincing but our mattress will be 12" thick and very very heavy. Plus I read your other posts on foundations and I don’t believe theirs has mesh wiring at all. I don’t want to damage our mattress after putting this much time energy and money into it. :-/

Thoughts?[/quote]

The foundation post here (which you may have already read) has my thoughts and comments about different types of foundations and some sources for each that may be helpful. You can purchase two twin XL KD foundations instead of a king and although this may be more costly in some cases there are several available that are under $400.

The wire grid types of foundations are usually rated for 2000 lbs or higher so from a weight perspective they would likely be fine but as you know they wouldn’t be my first choice with an all latex mattress (see post #10 here). Arizona Premium has two types of foundations one of which is a wood slat KD type and the other is a wire grid type.

[quote]Oh, one last thing. Anyone have any experience/opinions in the natural FR casings by either of these companies?

Spindle is cotton/wool blend.

Arizona Premium - mattresses.net is cotton/bamboo/wool blend[/quote]

It would probably be best to ask the manufacturer directly which type of fire barrier they use to get the most accurate possible information. I know that Arizona Premium uses wool as the fire barrier. According to their website Spindle uses rayon (probably a rayon/silica inherent fabric) but it sounds like you are ordering something with a different cover and a different design from what they have on their website so I don’t know whether Spindle uses the wool as the only fire barrier or if it also uses the rayon in the mattress you are ordering.

[quote]I’m curious if they’re tightly quilted or big pouffy quilts. If they’re big I’m wondering whether imprints/compression of the fibers or inability to get the true feel of the latex would be a concern.

On spindle mattress’ website the absconds cover looks so poufy[/quote]

There are questions that are best asked of the manufacturer because the cover described on their website uses a 3/4" layer of polyfoam in the quilting which will likely be softer than wool. Neither one is thick enough that it would be an issue with impressions (although there would be some minimal impressions over time). Both wool and polyfoam or any quilting material for that matter will have some effect on the latex underneath it. There is more about the effects of quilting in post #12 here.

Phoenix

44

Lnr103 we just got our mattress set from Arizona Premium

I think the customer service might be they are not sales folks more mattress builders that seem to really know what they do and sales are second to building kinda thing so its not like calling a sales place !
at least my experience they were more wanting to sell me the correct thing than they were selling or upsetting items in general if that makes sense ?
and they don’t have tons of people to answer phones and things from the times I was there in person its the folks building the beds which is nice cause for me they all seem to know answers :slight_smile:
but great people :slight_smile:
again IMHO :wink:

the bamboo is nicer more luxurious feeling than the cotton from Arizona Premium:) the cotton is smoother lower than the bamboo but IMHO both are nothing like big puffy pillow top sealy kinda mattresses ! they are much lower tighter feeling tops for sure meant to let the latex feel come through and not try to hide whats under which is what I get the feeling of now that I have compared say sealy type mattresses if that makes sense ?

45

Thanks ckmaui!