synthetic blend vs natural dunlop real world use

Mattress Talk General Mattresses Questions
1

Ok, I’m sort of at a cross roads. I’d like to use a dunlop core (or 2 3" layers). That being said, my choices are all natural in 2 3" pieces, 27-33ild on top of 34-42ild … or a solid 6" (5.5") core of 80/20 synthetic blend with a 31-36-31 tri-zone. my plan is to have 3-4" of talalay on top of this. On one hand, natural is more durable. On the other, the solid core is zoned and I have a heavier midsection (rear end/pelvis). The cost difference is $100. It’s said that natural latex will last 15yrs or so if properly covered. Synthetic blends will tend to last less, but how much less? Is there any real world comparison beyond formulas and estimates?

This is assuming that in the core of the mattress, aside from zoned vs non zoned, they’ll be fairly close equivalents. If the ‘usual’ lifespan or longevity of natural is 15yrs, is the lifespan of a comparable 80/20 synthetic blend more like 12yrs? 8yrs? The zoning appeals to me, but is it worth whatever benefit the moderate zoning has to offer and saving $100 or being it’s only $100 more, will the natural last far longer and I’d be foolish not to go with the all natural 3" layers?

I’m trying to be openminded in regards to what each has to offer, but considering the low cost difference going to all natural and giving up the zoning (whatever benefit it might or might not provide). Would really rather not pick the synthetic blend if it’s a case of oh, for only $100 more you could have gone all natural for the base? You should have done it, you would’ve gotten 5-8 more years of use out of it. To add, I do know that I didn’t have any troubles ‘sagging’ in the midsection when laying on a savvy serenity with 3" of soft/med/firm. Although I did wish it was just a bit softer on top (which is why I’m looking to 3-4" of talalay rather than all dunlop).

One last thought, if it matters - since it’s coming up on summer, it might be worth mentioning that it gets quite hot and humid here. I thought it was mentioned in another post that natural is more susceptible to heat degradation than synthetic or blends. Granted it’s only a few months out of the year, but I’m talking 90 degree days with 60%+ humidity - potentially 80 even with a window a/c unit running.

2

Hi brass,

I wouldn’t make the assumption that natural latex is more durable than blended or synthetic because this certainly isn’t always true. You can read more about the different types and blends of latex in post #6 here. While it’s not possible to quantify the number of years that any mattress (latex or otherwise) will maintain its comfort and support for any specific person … there is more about the many variables that can affect durability and the useful life of a mattress relative to each person in post #4 here and the posts it links to.

Phoenix

3

I’m surprised to find out that natural talalay latex is really blended latex, not only that but is also mostly made from synthetic latex but sold as natural latex, pretty misleading.

4

Hi WadeB,

I completely agree that it can be confusing because some manufacturers (such as Pure Latex Bliss/Latex International) will call their blended Talalay “natural” and their 100% natural Talalay “all natural”. Some Dunlop manufacturers will also call a blended Dunlop “natural” when it’s a blend as well.

The most effective way to know what type of latex is in a mattress you are considering is to ask specifically what type and blend of latex it is because there is lots of misinformation and “blurry lines” in latex descriptions in the industry.

Phoenix

5

Hi Phoenix, thanks for the link. I’d read that post before I believe or one similar. I guess I was thinking it was an easier comparison, when ild’s were similar and used as base/core layer comparing natural to a blend in dunlop. I know it’s not an easy comparison, considering talalay can be more durable in a blend form and depending on how soft or firm and how close to the top layers it is. Sorry for the slow response, was out of town for a few days. Thinking it’s kind of a moot point by now anyhow, the price points I was considering was a sale spindle had on ebay. When I asked, they said they were simply overstocked and looking to get rid of them as the reason for the lower price, but that was a few days ago. Now it seems they’re actually charging more than full retail for their overstocked toppers on ebay. Part of the reason I tend to neurotically check prices, since a lot of vendors like to bounce the prices around. One day they’re $20-40 less than retail, the next they’re $20-40 more than retail. Something to look out for. The $100 difference between natural and synthetic blend is now more like a $200 difference unfortunately. Tempted to pick it up when it’s at a decent price, but still waiting for the rain to clear out to build a bed frame. Thinking I might reconsider my choice of wood and hunt for gopher wood since I might need an ark instead of a bed frame :stuck_out_tongue: Suppose I could get the latex and set it aside, just not keen on having to keep it all bundled up for an extended period of time. From what I’ve read about most foams poly/memory or latex it’s better to let them expand sooner than later.

6

Hi brass,

ILD is only one of several factors that affect how soft or firm a layer or a mattress feels (see post #4 here) and comparing different types of latex based on ILD alone can also be somewhat misleading (see post #6 here). When you are comparing the same type and blend of latex then ILD comparisons can be more helpful.

Phoenix

7

Phoenix, I think I confused you or didn’t word something right and might have gotten on two different pages. When I said I thought it would be an easier comparison where ild’s were similar, I wasn’t comparing firmness. I was trying to say that I thought weighing out durability or quality of dunlop, natural vs synthetic blend (of mostly synthetic in an 80/20), would be more straight forward if their ild’s were the same or similar. In other words, comparing as closely as possible two materials (both dunlop) with as few differences and variables as possible. That’s the only reason I mentioned ild, not for reasons of firmness comparison.

I was looking at the differences between options for cores, or what I’m considering a core - the bottom 6" of a mattress build. Treating a technically 5.5" solid core or 2 3" layers (6" total) as the same for ease of comparison. One is a single 5.5" piece with a slight zoning (tri-zone duralux I believe) 31-35-31. Option B are two 3" layers, also dunlop, one layer 27ild the other 42 ild.

(Technically, if I were comparing ilds these wouldn’t be ‘exactly’ the same - but since dunlop is more of an ild range, I’m thinking 27 (high 20’s low 30’s) over 42 (low 40’s in the lower 3" of 6" total) is pretty close to 6" of dunlop ranging in the low to mid/upper 30’s. Purely for sake of comparing material types, for me I think these are close enough to each other in firmness to look past ild differences.)

I wasn’t trying to compare firmness, I only mentioned their ild’s to give some background on what I was comparing (since I felt it made it more apples to apples). Pretending that any real world variation in the firmness between options A and B didn’t exist, and they were of ‘same’ firmness - option A being 6" of 80/20 synthetic blend dunlop material, option B being 6" (2 3" layers) of natural dunlop… would it be smarter to opt for the all natural in terms of durability, or is the longevity/durability of synthetic blend vs natural not as noticeable in real world use?

Somewhere you misunderstood I think and thought I was comparing ild’s or different types of latex. I was comparing 2 versions of dunlop latex, both of the (for arguments sake) ‘same’ ild, and the comparison I was trying to make was natural vs synthetic blend. I have trouble getting across my meaning sometimes, just bear with me :stuck_out_tongue: … For instance, I work with tools. If someone said they found a ratchet wrench for $100 and another for $140 and they were both the same size and drive - the only difference being the cheaper one used plastic gears and the more expensive used all metal gears inside, I could feel pretty comfortable telling them the more expensive one would be of better value if they were concerned with how long the tool would last under daily use. I’m pretty confident that metal gearing would be much more durable and longer lasting and for slightly more up front investment they would get a good 10yrs out of a quality ratchet vs maybe 3 or 4yrs out of a lesser expensive version made of less durable materials. In the end they would have to determine what ‘value’ meant to them, but the higher price for a clearly higher quality material would be reflected in real world everyday use. At the very least, twice the useful lifespan for the higher quality components.

From most things I’ve read it sounds like the more natural latex the better, which might be why I’m questioning it. One of your posts clarifying latex mentioned “Dunlop blends that come from a high quality source are usually the lowest cost latex I would generally consider…” and "100% NR Dunlop or blended Talalay (70% SBR / 30% SBR) are the next up in price and are the most popular choices for overall performance and “value” " - what I gather from that is that in the overall scheme of things, latex is a high quality material over most others and likely more durable. Within the realm of latex, specifically dunlop, synthetic blends are the lowest end of the spectrum you’d consider while for a somewhat higher price, 100% NR dunlop performs better and offers better value. Obviously if blended dunlop lasts 10yrs and NR lasts 12yrs and the cost difference is substantial (double), the ‘value’ in terms of quality vs price isn’t as high. However if blended has a tendency to last 7yrs and NR lasts 12-15yrs, with a cost difference of only 25-30% - this would represent a much better value. 30% more cost up front, but with the likelihood of lasting 50% longer. Of course if averages said that the lifespan of NR matched the price difference - lasted twice as long as blended dunlop but costs twice as much as well, then it may just become a matter of how often someone is ok with replacing that layer. In comparing soft drinks, same brand same flavor - at the store, 1 liter costs $1. 2 liters costs $1.38 - if I’m willing to pony up the extra .38 up front, the larger bottle would last me longer or provide me with more product for only slightly more. If that same 2 liter bottle was $2, then it wouldn’t matter buying 1 2L bottle or 2 1L bottles - same price, same amount and the 2 liter bottle no longer represents much better ‘value’.

Cost is always a factor for me, so I guess what I’m getting at - if blended dunlop and NR are so close to one another in life expectancy, if paying $100-200 more for the same 6" layer to get NR is only likely to last a year or two longer than blended - I’m ok with a blended version since it’s not ultimately important to me personally to be ‘all natural’ for other reasons. That $200 would pay for a nice ticking or buy a couple more inches of talalay to go on top. However if the NR in most cases, under most circumstances will outlast the blend by 4-5yrs then an additional $100-200 up front is a smarter investment in my opinion. I’m not trying to ‘cheap out’ necessarily, just trying to make a more sensible choice. This is only to try and share where my thoughts on ‘sensible’ come into play, everyone is different and has different ideas of value or ‘worth’. I wouldn’t say someone was foolish for spending twice the price to get tires that had 20% more life expectancy if they felt it was ‘worth’ less hassle changing tires as often or was easier on the environment or any number of things. But for myself, I wouldn’t favor that tradeoff (not that i hate the environment lol) - it would make more sense to me to invest that money in 2 sets of tires and get 80% more use for the same amount of money and suck up the inconvenience of changing tires more often.

8

Hi brass,

You are getting into some rather technical information here that may end up overwhelming you and lead to paralysis by analysis as you get into finer and finer details … most of which will have no definitive answer other than "preponderance of the evidence).

[quote]I was looking at the differences between options for cores, or what I’m considering a core - the bottom 6" of a mattress build. Treating a technically 5.5" solid core or 2 3" layers (6" total) as the same for ease of comparison. One is a single 5.5" piece with a slight zoning (tri-zone duralux I believe) 31-35-31. Option B are two 3" layers, also dunlop, one layer 27ild the other 42 ild.

(Technically, if I were comparing ilds these wouldn’t be ‘exactly’ the same - but since dunlop is more of an ild range, I’m thinking 27 (high 20’s low 30’s) over 42 (low 40’s in the lower 3" of 6" total) is pretty close to 6" of dunlop ranging in the low to mid/upper 30’s. Purely for sake of comparing material types, for me I think these are close enough to each other in firmness to look past ild differences.)[/quote]

You are making an assumption that they will be comparable that I wouldn’t make. If you are comparing a single core with two 3" layers and both of them are using the same type and blend of material and are the same density/ILD then they would be closely comparable. As soon as there are significant differences between them (which there are in this case) then there would be too many variables to predict how they may compare for you. The variables include the person (body type, sleeping positions etc), what you use over the 6" of latex, and the differences in how you perceive the zoning and the differences between the compression modulus of mostly synthetic latex vs a 100% natural material which will also affect the feel and firmness of the two materials.

Besides any difference in feel or softness/firmness … the 100% molded natural Dunlop is likely to be more durable but again this will depend on all the specifics because the durability of specific layers or of a mattress itself will also have many variables involved.

This really depends on the type of latex and the manufacturing method and how you are defining “better” (better in what way?). In other words “better” would be specific to the application and the material.

This is all part of the trial and error and learning curve that is always involved when you are designing and building your own mattress because one person’s experience and preferences may be based on very different criteria, preferences, and perceptions than someone else.

Phoenix

9

I guess I thought it would be easier to answer than it is. You’re right, the layering isn’t identical - the ild’s are slightly different, technically speaking they would feel different even in the deepest parts of a mattress. After having tested some different models and different materials, talalay vs dunlop etc I found I’m not overly sensitive as some people might be. I’m sure some think I’m crazy, I didn’t feel a huge difference between a talalay core and dunlop core. Both felt firm ‘enough’ and supportive to me. The talalay felt a bit softer, more ‘give’ to it and I preferred that. That’s where I wasn’t overly concerned with slight variance in ild’s since they were so close and both in dunlop. I was just trying to get a clearer idea of durability, in terms of longevity of natural vs blended…that’s where I was referring to ‘better’. This is assuming they feel the same (or in my case, close enough to be considered the same since I’m not sensitive to slight variations).

Not being familiar with how the materials actually last in terms of years, I kind of compare it to computer components. When vendors are promoting one product over another, say processor speed. They often use charts and graphs and say things like “30% faster” or show a bar graph where it appears the promoted product is ‘vastly’ outperforming the competition. On a graph that ranges in small segments, it can look like a huge difference. Zoom out and include a wider range along the graph’s measurement ranges and they begin looking more similar. Then you have ‘experts’ or people with greater familiarity actually using the product (in this case, yourself with latex) and they may do a write up that says while A on paper is 30% faster than B, in a perfect textbook setting - in real world application, the end user is liable to notice an improvement in speed performing normal operations of only a second or two and most people wouldn’t even notice the difference. In a case like that, the unknowing consumer may be like oh ok, well that’s good to know. Whew, thanks - you saved me the disappointment of spending 50% more money on something that ultimately wouldn’t have benefited me enough to really notice. Variations in material (NR vs blend) with a difference of a year or two longevity over the course of 10yrs could be chalked up to normal variation. Normal life expectancy of a quality mattress is around 10yrs, give or take. One lasting 11, another lasting 9…that’s about 10yrs. If going with blended dunlop created a difference of 7yrs vs 14-15yrs for NR, then it’d be safer to say the use of blended over NR had a significant difference attributed to the difference of material.

All of this is assuming, in my situation, that the rest of the materials are the same and only comparing the lower 6" base or core. I might be thinking things in my head and not expressing them and can’t expect anyone to read my mind - The goal is say an 11" mattress, 3" of 22-24 talalay over 2" 28ild talalay over 6" of dunlop with the organic cotton ticking from APM. Same ticking, same talalay layers, the only difference being the natural vs blended dunlop as the core. With most of the wear and tear being on the same blended LI talalay in the upper 5", maybe it won’t make much difference NR vs blended dunlop in the lower 6" core.

10

Hi Brass,

Your computer analogy is a good one and I can use it to go through some of the tradeoffs I made when I purchased my own desktop replacement and relate them to mattress choices.

The most important parts of my computer choice were the size (17.3") and clarity of the screen (along with a glare reducing surface), a solid keyboard (I type quickly and I’m a “banger” when I type so I don’t like mushy keyboards), a fast SSD drive in the range of 256 GB for day to day speed and an additional larger HD to use for storage and backups, 16 GB memory and the newest i7 core (but not the upgraded versions) also for speed and to deal with open applications, good sound (I didn’t want extra speakers), and a “reasonable” video card (I’m not a gamer so I don’t need and wouldn’t notice the difference between what I have and the best video cards) along with reasonably good build quality (I’m not the easiest on my electronic equipment). All of these were parts of my personal value equation. My previous computer was still functional but I wanted something more versatile, faster, and better that was more up to date even though it was still working fine for the most part. In other words … it didn’t wear out as much as my own needs and preferences changed.

I’m not a gamer so I didn’t need the faster processors or the top of the line video card which would be much more important to others than it would to me but I do have as many as 400 tabs open in my browser at one time so I needed components and memory that would support this. The overall approach I took was to buy the best quality in my price range for the parts that would make a meaningful difference to me and to buy components that were “good enough” for the parts that were less important to me.

I would reasonably expect that with the build quality it will last me for about 3 - 5 years (unless I’m unlucky) and even though it may still be fine for longer than that … the odds are high that I will want something more suitable for my current circumstances and the state of technology at that time.

To relate that to mattresses … I would tend to lean towards 100% natural Dunlop vs blended Dunlop mainly because of the performance benefits of natural Dunlop. With molded Dunlop the 100% natural would likely be a little more durable but in a support core with several inches of softer latex on top of it this may not be as significant. With Talalay I would probably lean towards the blended Talalay because the performance benefits of the 100% natural probably wouldn’t be enough to make the higher cost worth it to me (unless I could feel a significant difference) and the blended would likely be at least as durable or more durable than the 100% natural version.

Of course these are just very general comments and there are many variables but this would be the overall approach I would take if I was choosing a latex mattress outside of preference issues. In general there would be no problem with an all latex mattress lasting 10 years so the durability benefits of some some types over others, particularly in a support core, would probably be more important in the period of time past 10 years and the limiting factor in the useful life of the mattress after that may have as much to do with changes in the needs and preferences of the person than with whether the mattress was still “OK” in terms of durability.

Phoenix

11

Phoenix, thanks. That’s along the lines of what I wasn’t sure about. I’m sure after 10-12yrs it’ll be time to consider replacing materials anyway (and easier in a layered construction, diy, zippered case what have you). More likely the upper softer layers before anything else since they’ll take the most abuse. I don’t expect anything to last forever, but trying to make sure my investment is worth it. If comfort is similar, I’d rather not spend $800 or more on something that won’t last much beyond an equally comfortable alternative for $400-500. Although I’m sure just about any latex consideration will safely last as long if not longer than most mainstream innerspring or poly options. And after a few nights stuck on a hotel bed, anything will feel infinitely better. No clue what model it was, a Serta something or other - not the ‘hotel’ line they claim is used by Serta, rather a very firm innerspring, double sided, but with so little padding above the springs I have a feeling flipping it wouldn’t improve it. I knelt on the bed and could feel the spring outline pressing into my knee. Just further proof that comfort is subjective and after a few harsh nights, even an old broke down mattress can be a relief :stuck_out_tongue:

12

Hi brass,

I talked with Neal about his ebay sale and he told me that they had an intern who made a mistake in the listing (which they have corrected as you can see in their blog post here). Unfortunately the person that brought the mistake to their attention also decided to say a little more than just pointing out their mistake and apparently thought that it was somehow a good idea to take a more threatening approach. I have absolutely no respect or patience for these types of consumers (or people in general for that matter) who decide that it’s somehow OK to threaten to harm a reputable manufacturer that is telling them the truth (especially when they haven’t even bought anything) for the sake of an inflated ego or who only show their arrogance in believing that they somehow “know best” when they clearly don’t.

Sometimes the internet can be a two edged sword when anonymous consumers who have these types of ethical standards make threats or write feedback that only shows their own lack of critical thinking, reason, and judgement but which can have much more influence on others than they deserve.

Needless to say I have strong feelings about this as I have often seen these types of consumers try to harm some “good people” and most of the better manufacturers I know have examples in their history of these types of people that aren’t satisfied with anything and resort to this type of childish and threatening behavior as soon as anything happens that they don’t “like” whether they are being reasonable or thinking clearly or not.

In any case … I’ll climb off my soap box for now … and the good news in all of this is that the ebay sale is still continuing for those who wish to take advantage of it so the opportunity for a temporary but legitimate discount isn’t lost :slight_smile:

Phoenix

13

You’re absolutely right Phoenix, the internet can be a two edged sword. Nothing I said was false, the prices have been erratic to a degree and it’s pretty common with various online companies. Amazon is another one who chooses to do business that way. I’m not at all about harming good people, I’m about helping people. Consumers need to be wary of things and watching or doing their homework on price listings, especially those which vary so often is a good practice in general regardless the item. There were no threats made, I have all the correspondence if you’re interested. I simply exercised my right as a consumer to re-evaluate and consider the competition. It’s a free market. I don’t have an inflated ego and maybe the story about the intern is correct. However it doesn’t explain the price being modified 6 times in a two week period all over the place and making 42% increases in 24hrs on items that are trying to be moved. The story doesn’t really jive, not that it matters. Ebay logs a history of all modifications, so it wasn’t entirely an error. The prices had in fact been jockeyed around on an average of every other day according to Ebay. That’s not an attack, merely a fact. As for anything else I said, I contacted the seller disappointed in the way they handled business… privately. Perhaps the indignant and abrasive tone immediately thrown to a prospective customer from the owner themselves had something to do with the overall tone of the private conversation. Again, it’s a free country and if that’s how they wish to do business I wish them well. The fact of the matter is, I’m not the one selling anything or sitting on stock that isn’t moving. There are plenty of vendors, and as it stands… in most any market, the consumer has many choices to choose from. It’s up to the vendor whether or not they want the sale. In no way is it meant to be rude, but at the end of the day I’m not concerned with whether one company or another is able to move their product. It’s not my concern. I do know if it were myself, I’d be more concerned with being nicer to customers I rely on for my business to succeed, not try and talk down to them. And yes, I’ve been in that situation many times dealing with unhappy customers - whether they leave an email stating disappointment or whether they come into the office in person to bang their fists on the desk and throw things. Never have I raised my ‘tone’ with any customer, rather maintained a professional atmosphere and worked to diffuse the situation, get to the bottom of the complaint and attempt to rectify any problems to the suitability of both. It’s not as though I jumped on forums badmouthing anyone, telling people not to purchase anything - I shared factual information which hopefully will help others. I don’t have any hard feelings toward anyone, if people get a great deal - then great. If a company does well, then great also. And hopefully if consumers are cautious and educated, even if it’s made aware of practices that happen on the internet, they won’t be taken either and it will be a win/win for everyone.

14

After taking the time to read the blog post made by Spindle, I would like to point out that what he said simply is not true. I never said I was keen to set out and destroy his business or livelihood. This is false, pure and simple “A person told us that they will be posting around the interwebs that we are a sleazy company. In the end, he would be setting out to personally destroy my company and livelihood.” I have all communication and I said I didn’t like it when companies (plural, not just his) play price games - that I feel it’s a sleazy practice. I’m entitled to my opinion in a private conversation, consumer to retailer. The fact Neal felt it needed to be brought public is on him. I wish he would get his facts straight though before twisting words publicly about me. “I’d rather spend more elsewhere just for the satisfaction of supporting your competition.” are my actual words if it’s about clearing the air - if this is what Spindle considers threatening their livelihood and business, then that’s their personal take - Have I posted anything, anywhere saying Spindle is sleazy? No. Have I threatened their livelihood in any manner? No. Did I demand or ask or inquire about any special treatment or try to extort them to lower their prices? No. Did I let consumers know that prices can be very volatile and change as much as 42% in a 24hr period, ranging from $100 below retail (per the companies website listing as a baseline reference) to $20-$60 more? Yes. It’s no different then pointing out to consumers that SleepEZ or APMC offer similar mattresses to SavvyRest for much lower prices and SavvyRest may not be the best value. Is that threatening or damaging SavvyRest? Or making statements about FBM, telling people to be wary of purchasing products from them because what they receive may or may not be what they think they’re getting? Or may not compare to what others are selling? Of course not, because it’s true. The only difference being that Spindle is favored here. As a matter of fact, I think if someone from SavvyRest were to be questioned regarding their prices (as they’re much higher than other vendors) they would simply say you’re correct. We’re not cheap. We are what we are and we provide a premium product. And they continue to do business. One thing I haven’t seen them do is take to a company blog to air personal grievances and spread false information just short of libelous. People have said far worse about companies over far less and attempted to somehow personally gain from it. None of which I’ve done. As a consumer, I have better things to do with my time than worry about ruining a company. Like obtaining a new mattress.

15

Hi brass,

Spindle’s blog post didn’t mention a specific person and was actually connected to a previous blog post they made a few weeks earlier about a situation that happened to another manufacturer (see here) which upset them just as much and they were speculating about whether something similar would happen to them. If it was you that was the trigger for their blog post then it’s clear that they certainly read something in your emails that led them to believe that you meant to cause them harm although it may not have been the part of your reply that you quoted. Sometimes there is more in the “tone”, context, or implications of an email than in any parts of the specific content itself.

This is part of the reason that they were hoping to talk with you in person because it’s not easy to read the “tone” or the “implications” of an email since people express things very differently.

My own post also wasn’t about any specific person. The conversation was triggered by curiosity about your comments concerning their ebay sale which in turn led to a conversation about their blog post. Again if it was you I certainly don’t want to get into a “he said she said” situation but our conversation was the trigger for my comments about how some consumers react in certain situations which are certainly valid and I do have strong feelings about these types of “reactions”. As I mentioned, I have seen many instances of consumers who “rush to judgement” based on a limited set of facts, information, and knowledge (that is often wrong) and then decide to “react” or “cause harm” based on assumptions that are completely incorrect. It’s part of the “two edged sword” of the internet that allows for anonymous posters to harm the reputation of good businesses that aren’t anonymous.

Blog posts are usually triggered by some kind of personal experience that is important enough that someone chooses to share their thoughts and other connected ideas in more detail and I didn’t see anything (other than your response) that publicly identified you as the reason for the post. My own post was also similar and was just as anonymous. Had you not made it clear that it was about you then nobody else would even have known.

There is also a difference between pointing out facts that are self evident and being curious about the reasons behind them (such as the information you posted about their prices on ebay and some of the other examples you mentioned) and assuming that they have an intention that they don’t (which you can’t know). If you accidentally cut someone off in traffic for example and they treat you as being the same as someone that has done this on purpose or is subject to road rage at the smallest provocation then no matter how they “judge” you or how similar your actions may be to someone else they will still be wrong about your intent. If you drive by them and give a signal that says “I’m sorry” and they start shaking their fist at you and telling you where to go then you know that they aren’t open to anything other than demonizing you regardless of what the truth may be.

The truth in this case is different from what you appear to believe and a phone call along with an open mind that can acknowledge the possibility that you were wrong about their intentions and integrity may be all it takes for you to realize how he “translated” what you wrote and responded the way he did and confirm the reasons behind the pricing mistakes in the first place. He even publicly thanked you for bringing the ebay pricing discrepancies to his attention.

In the end of course … what someone believes about anyone else is always up to each person and each of us is always free to use any evidence (selectively or otherwise) that we choose to justify our beliefs but it makes sense to me to give someone the benefit of the doubt when their history going back many years points to the kind of integrity that is more rare in the industry today and is the reason that most people (including me) have such a high opinion of them.

Phoenix

16

It’s true, both were thinly anonymous… and I personally have nothing to hide, which is why I came forward and admitted it was me. However hopefully everyone can move on, I don’t wish to turn this thread or any other into a rant. It’s not productive and I’m sure I share your feelings that this site is about helping people with meaningful and informative posts, not about drama. It wasn’t my intention for it to veer off topic.

17

Hi brass,

Well said … and I completely agree :slight_smile:

Phoenix