The Cloud Mattress

Mattress Talk General Mattresses Questions
1

Does anyone have any feedback on this mattress? I tested it out today and I loved it. Very comfortable with a luxurious feel.

The Cloud Mattress

It is made by WJ Southard. Looking at their website, I think it is this one.

The Lincklaen - 10" Natural Latex Mattress

I recently visited Spindle and had a great experience. Iā€™ve shared my visit in another thread. Overall they have a great product. The Dream Mattress felt like the next step up. But that step also appears to be about $2200 more. Can I justify that?

Thoughts?

2

Hi thecountofzero,

I donā€™t have any personal experience with it so I donā€™t know what it ā€œfeelsā€ like and this would be quite subjective and vary from person to person anyway but it certainly uses very high quality materials (100% natural Dunlop latex) and has a high quality wool quilted cover.

Comparing this to the synthetic latex mattresses at Spindle would be somewhat of an apples to oranges comparison and it would be more closely comparable to their 9" 100% natural Dunlop latex mattress with a wool quilted cover although of course there would still be some differences between them both in terms of design, components, and how they feel and perform.

I donā€™t think that anyone else can really answer that for someone else and I would compare it to the 100% natural version with a wool quilted cover at Spindle rather than the synthetic version with the less costly cover quilted with polyfoam but it would really depend on your own personal value equation and what was most important to you. Both of them would be better quality/value than the mattresses that most people end up buying in the mainstream industry.

When you look back on a mattress purchase in a decade or more you will remember much more about how well you slept on the mattress and how long it lasted you than you will about the price you paid (which over the useful life of the mattress isnā€™t really as big a factor and itā€™s difficult to put a price on better quality sleep) but of course with two mattresses that had such a big difference in price then the initial price would normally be much more important and I would put some careful thought into whether the differences I could feel were really worth the extra cost on an individual level. It would also depend on how price sensitive you are because to some people the difference would be much less important than to others and even a small improvement in how a mattress feels would be well worth a significantly higher price to them.

Phoenix

3

I wasnā€™t comparing this to the synthetic Spindle. For comparisons I was referring to the natural Spindle which is still $2200 less than the Cloud Mattress.

Here are some differences I noticed between the two:

  1. The Spindle mattress is three 3" layers of latex while the Cloud is two (a 6" base and a 3" comfort layer). However both total 9" of latex. How will the three layers vs the two layers compare? Quality of the latex?

  2. The layers of latex in the Cloud are covered in organic cotton. The salesperson said that this reduces wear on the layers. Friction? Would the organic cotton slightly affect the feel? I liked this. It also made for a more professional look/feel. The layers of latex in the Spindle were not covered, they are just laid on top of each other.

  3. The quilt on the demo mattresses at Spindle were made of organic cotton with rayon batting (fire retardant) with 3/4" inch of centi-pur soy based foam. The Cloud mattress zippered cover is made of a quilted fabric made from certified organic cotton fibers with plump layers of certified organic and eco-friendly wool fiber batting.

I realize comfort is a matter of perception, but which would you expect to be more comfortable, or perhaps plush, based on description? And do how do you see either affecting the overall feel?

Do you see any other differences in the descriptions that would contribute to the price difference?

Is Spindle owned by WJ Southard?

Thanks!

4

Hi thecountofzero,

The Spindle Abscond 100% natural in King size is $1650 (give or take a penny).

The Cloud you linked in King size is listed at $3250 so itā€™s about $1600 more than the Spindle which of course is still significant.

The Lincklaen is listed at $3050.

The quality/durability of the materials would be closely equivalent (they are both 100% natural Dunlop). The three layers would give you additional options to either fine tune the mattress or to re-arrange or exchange the layers vs having two. Having two 3" layers in the bottom two layers in a firmness level that is the same as a single 6" layer would make very little detectable difference if any to how the mattress ā€œfeelsā€. In theory two individual layers can act more independently and ā€œin theoryā€ could be a little softer but I doubt that most people would detect this is two bottom layers.

Post #2 here has more about individually covered layers.

[quote]3. The quilt on the demo mattresses at Spindle were made of organic cotton with rayon batting (fire retardant) with 3/4" inch of centi-pur soy based foam. The Cloud mattress zippered cover is made of a quilted fabric made from certified organic cotton fibers with plump layers of certified organic and eco-friendly wool fiber batting.

I realize comfort is a matter of perception, but which would you expect to be more comfortable, or perhaps plush, based on description? And do how do you see either affecting the overall feel?[/quote]

I donā€™t know. For some people a mattress that uses 8" of low quality polyfoam can be the most comfortable mattress they have ever tried so comfort and PPP is too variable and subjective to assess for someone else. The ā€œplushnessā€ of a mattress will depend on the specifics of each mattress and how the ILDā€™s of the latex compare. You can read more about the effects of wool and polyfoam quilting layers in post #12 here and the other posts it links to. How a quilting layer ā€œfeelsā€ will depend on the specifics of the quilting, the fabric, and the layers below it.

The Cloud uses wool as a fire barrier and the Spindle uses an inherent rayon non woven fire barrier. The Spindle is 7 zoned and the Cloud doesnā€™t mention any zoning.

I think weā€™ve covered the main material differences but of course there are also many other factors that can contribute to differences in pricing between two mattresses which can include different business models (such as factory direct vs selling through a retailer or online vs bricks and mortar) as well as all the other differences between two companies that can affect price (see post #14 here).

They are sister companies in the same family.

Phoenix

5

Would you agree that the Cloud Mattress is likely the Lincklaen? They told me at The Organic Mattress that the Cloud was made by WJ Southard and thatā€™s the one that matches up.

My bad on the price comparison. With the Cloud I was factoring in the the foundation. With the foundation it is listed at $4000. The all natural Spindle is $2030 with a foundation. And the Lincklaen is $3800.

That makes the Spindle practically half the price of the Cloud and $1770 less than the Lincklaen.

So why am I still so drawn to both of the more expensive options???

Do I need to use the foundations they provide? The Spindle foundation is half the price of the one for the Cloud/Lincklaen.

I believe Iā€™ve read that WJ Southard is not a member of this site and therefore does not offer members any discounts?

Would love to hear from anyone that owns either the Cloud or Lincklaenā€¦

6

Hi thecountzero,

It certainly looks very similar but I donā€™t know if there are any minor differences or if they are exactly the same.

Each person can have very different criteria that are more or less important to them and be very different in how they assess the ā€œvalueā€ of a mattress that from a commodity or ā€œraw materials costā€ point of view may not be nearly as good as another one they are comparing it to but that they have a clear sense they would prefer to sleep on over the next decade or more. ā€œValueā€ is a combination of objective, subjective, and intangible factors that can vary widely from person to person and there is no ā€œright or wrongā€ in this. The key is to have all the information you need to make a choice that is ā€œbest for youā€ regardless of how someone else may feel about your choice or whether they would choose differently. The ā€œvalueā€ of a mattress that is a better match for you in terms of PPP and that you believe would improve the quality of your sleep over the next decade or more is difficult to quantify but itā€™s one of the most important parts of each personā€™s personal value equation regardless of the ā€œcommodity valueā€ or selling price of a mattress.

I think that the Spindle foundation would be suitable (it looks like the slats are less than 3" apart). I donā€™t know the specifics of the foundation that is sold with the Cloud (there is a small picture here if itā€™s the same one they sell with the Cloud but it doesnā€™t provide any specifics) but it would likely be stronger yet and may have some kind of padding (probably organic cotton/wool) over the slats to better protect the mattress but unless you needed the extra strength because of your body weight the Spindle would likely be fine (although itā€™s always a good idea to confirm this with the manufacturer).

The current membership list is here and they are not a member no (although I do think highly of them).

Phoenix

7

With the Spindle option being that much cheaper it screams one of two things to me.

  1. It is an inferior product. The latex might be great, but all around it is a lesser product

  2. It is an unbelievable deal and/or the cloud/lincklaen is over priced

Iā€™d love to test out this mattress to throw it into the mix. On paper (the internet), it looks very similar and nice. Thoughts on the sculpted latex layer?

8

Hi thecountofzero,

I think Phoenix mentioned that Spindle is factory direct, vs buying through retail. That alone would likely cover a significant portion of the savings. Additionally, the ticking / case on the cloud mattress is wool, which is definitely more costly than rayon. If the latex is also covered, thatā€™d add more (donā€™t underestimate the price impact good fabrics can/do have). Iā€™ve made that mistake more than once (forgetting the increase in cost of higher cost and/or quality ticking).

9

dn,

Do you prefer good fabrics and quality ticking at the higher cost?

10

Hi thecountofzero,

Iā€™m a ā€˜premiumā€™ kinda guy. I tend to get what I perceive or am sold as being higher quality. Iā€™m not always correct in my assessment of value (although usually am- and itā€™s myself I need to satisfy with respect to this), although there are times I could have saved money and got a similar product. That said, I literally donā€™t sleep well unless I believe I got the best and feel good about a purchase, which for me usually means I didnā€™t get the lowest price option. Itā€™s part of my personal value equation, as Phoenix would say. I will negotiate to get the lowest price I can, once Iā€™ve decided what I want. You sound like you may have some of that in you tooā€¦ In so much as itā€™s a challenge to consider the less expensive product.

The marketing profession knows this tooā€¦ Sometimes if you lower your price, people think your product is cheap and stop buying. By contrast, sometimes if you raise your price, people think it must be good so buy. People use price to determine value, which isnā€™t always right.

But yes, I do personally prefer better fabrics at a higher cost. I am most certainly not saying spindle uses poor fabrics- I donā€™t know what they use, and usually an organic cotton is pretty high end. However, wool will be more costly than rayon+polyfoam, and an organic cotton cover for each layer will be more costly than not having it.

11

dn,

I think you hit the nail right on the head. Great post!

The thing thatā€™s got me is that Spindle has a great mattress. And they do have an upgrade to a wool quilt (not sure of the up charge).

However, as Iā€™ve already stated, the Cloud just seemed like it was a luxury version of the Spindle. But twice the cost? $1000 more and it would be a no-brainer for me.

The interesting thing is that one week ago I had decided it down to either a Kingsdown, Aireloom or Beautyrest Black mattress and had come to this forum seeking advice as to which one I should get. The Kingsdown was $3300, the Aireloom $4000 and the Beautyrest $3500. It only took about an hour or two as a member of this site before I realized that those three mattresses were a terrible investment.

Had I never gone to/known about Spindle, I would most likely have ordered the Cloud/Lincklaen this afternoon given it is in the same price range as my original three choices and it is quality mattress from a company that Phoenix thinks highly of.

Spindle put a wrench in my plans/outlook.

I wonder if I can go with Spindleā€™s wool cover and have the three layers of latex wrapped in organic cotton. Hmmmā€¦

12

Hi thecountofzero,

I happened to have latex layers wrapped in an organic cotton in my bed - itā€™s a very thin mostly see through cotton. I canā€™t imagine it does anything feel wise. I think Phoenixā€™s post where he says it gives the latex a bit of extra protection from tears, and more importantly obscures/eliminates the view of the latex preventing customer complaints about (harmless) tears and visual imperfections is right on.

I have the option to do it with a layer on another bed Iā€™m doing, and Iā€™m not. I almost removed the outer layers totally today from the mattress that has them (see my thread about DIY zoning) as I had to cut through them - I still may. Once pictures are attached youā€™ll see.

If it was about allowing layers to move independently, itā€™s way easier (and cheaper) to put a simple flat cotton layer down between each slab of latex.

13

dn,

What mattress do you have?

14

[quote=ā€œthecountofzeroā€ post=32003]dn,

What mattress do you have?[/quote]

Hi thecountofzero,

The one I sleep on is very similar to what youā€™re looking at. Itā€™s a Green Sleep Vicence, on S-200 platform, and with Visalo mattress protector. The mattress is 3 layers of natural rubber dunlop, each 3" thick, in an organic cotton + wool mattress case.

Mattress and Foundartion:
http://www.tmasc.ca/green-sleep-organic-mattresses/green-sleep-vicence-organic-mattress.html

Mattress protector:
http://www.tmasc.ca/green-sleep-organic-mattress-pads/green-sleep-vasilo-organic-cotton-mattress-pad.html

I am building a second mattress with all the various surplus (albeit high quality) materials I have from various experiments. The second mattress will be 10" and have 7" of natural rubber dunlop, 3" of blended talalay, in a simple stretch knit organic cotton mattress case. I have a 3" wool topper that will go on top as desired. And then I got the same vasilo mattress protector and a sleeptek euro-slat foundation with legs. Iā€™m just waiting on the mattress case and foundation to arrive.

15

dn,

They sell Green Sleep mattresses at the place I looked at this Cloud (WJ Southard) mattress.

I didnā€™t like them as much because I thought they felt firmer. The salesperson said that is perhaps because the mattress cover/quilt was a tighter fit. However, they were very very nice high end mattresses. Actually seemed like higher end than the WJ Southard I liked.

Itā€™s not so much about allowing the layers to move independently as much I like the overall end result. And that includes the perception of higher quality. It gives a more professional finish. Albeit to something that is already inside the quilt.

For the second mattress you are building, what quilt and 3" wool topper are you using? Will the 3" wool topper fit nicely under the protector?

Any idea where I can get the organic cotton covers for 3" pieces of latex?

16

Hi thecountofzero,

The green sleep is a bit firmerā€¦ When I was shopping the team at tmasc.ca first started with do we think we prefer firmer or softer. We said firmer, so that put us on the green sleep track. Itā€™s all about PPP :slight_smile:

I know all about the tighter fit of the top, and yes it does change the feel. (I was testing all sorts of things, and wasnā€™t zipping up the mattress case each time to avoid very frequent wear on the zipper. Anyhow, once I found a winning combo I zipped it all up. Of course, that changed the feel of the very thing I had been working on trying to change, and had to change again) :wink:

The 3" wool topper is the sleeptek classic 2000.
http://www.tmasc.ca/wool-mattress-toppers/sleeptek-classic-2000-wool-topper.html

My review of it is here:
https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/sleeptek-classic-2000-3-wool-topper-review

Yes, the visalo mattress protector is deep enough to cover the mattress and topper, and that is how I do it :slight_smile: note: the visalo I got is from tmasc.ca, and looks identical to their pictures. Iā€™ve seen other websites selling it, but their pictures look different. I donā€™t know why.

(If youā€™ve not guessed, I live in a city with tmasc, and have been delighted with them and am a return shopper there - extremely knowledgable and Iā€™ve had great service).

For the mattress case / quiltā€¦ Iā€™m getting it from Sleepys.ca. It took me a while to find it. Itā€™s a plain 100% organic cotton 4-way stretch knitā€¦ Definitely nothing ā€˜fancyā€™ in design, but was what I wanted. I originally got it as a topper cover, and went back to get it as a mattress case also. Iā€™ve been getting my DIY stuff from Sleepys.ca, and they have been wonderful also. Tmasc.ca does less DIY stuff. It would be total overkill, but could be used to cover individual pieces of latex within a bed. If you went that route, ask to get the organic cotton on all sides (many topper covers come with a different material on the bottom). Of course, this is all Canadian, and while Iā€™m sure you can order from them, there may be easier USA options. To give some idea on price, I was $160 for a cover for a 3" layer twinxl. Itā€™d be about $320 for a cover for a 3" king plate of foam. So for a queen with 3 3" layers, youā€™d be in the $750 price range (ahhh yes, how costs add up for good fabrics).

Note that the topper cover I got is a far, far heavier material than the material surrounding the latex inside a mattress I have. So itā€™s hardly a direct comparison. Also, the material surrounding the latex I have donā€™t have zippers, itā€™s sewn in place. You can now see a picture here:https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/anyone-experimented-with-diy-zoning-like-flobeds-vzone-obasan-green-sleep-europe

If I were looking for organic cotton for latex layers, and based on what I know, Iā€™d do the following

  1. Ask spindle to do it. They clearly have a sister company that can, and already have access to organic cotton,
  2. Same as #1
  3. Same as #2
  4. Thereā€™s someone that posts here from diynaturalbedding or some such. I think their website is diynaturalbedding.com. Iā€™ve never shopped there, but based on their website it looks like the kind of place Iā€™d shop and get this kind of thing.
  5. Start calling aroundā€¦
17

Hi thecountofzero,

Do you mean the 7 zones in the Spindle layers?

In theory can help provide different levels of support under different areas of the body. For example a softer shoulder zone can ā€œallowā€ the wider lighter shoulders to sink in more deeply while a firmer zone under the pelvis can help prevent it from sinking in too deeply. The success of a zoning scheme depends on how well it fits the body type of the person but a suitable zoning scheme can help with more difficult body types or body shapes.

There is more about zoning in this article and in post #11 here and in post #18 here.

I think dnā€™s suggestions about asking Spindle may be the best solution to find a similar material to what they use in the WJ Southard layer covers but there are also some sources for topper covers in post #4 here although these would probably be thicker and meant more for toppers and not so much for covering layers inside a mattress.

Phoenix

18

Actually I am referring to the sculpted layer in the Cozy Pure mattress.

Cozy Pure

I already sent an email to Neal about the possibility of incorporating some of the WJ Southard-ness into the Spindle mattress.

19

Hi thecountofzero,

The sculpting or any surface modifications (such as convoluted foam) will have an effect on the softness, ā€œfeelā€, and response of the layer. The sculpting will change the softness of the latex layer and the ā€œrateā€ that it gets firmer as you compress it more deeply. You can read more about convoluted layers in post #2 here.

Phoenix