The Serta iComfort mattress ... what's the buzz

Hi Greentree,

The Englander latex is Dunlop and feels quite a bit different than Talalay … especially on top. I would probably take a visit to Find an Original Mattress Factory Store who are a regional factory direct manufacturer who makes two models of talalay latex that would be worth testing. They also make a range of other mattresses that have better quality and value than the major brands. Besides the types of latex … the ILD of the comfort layers and what is over and under latex can significantly change its feel.

The problem with both Englander and Restonic who both make latex mattresses (although Restonic also uses Talalay) is that they are made to different specs around the country as each licensee makes their own design. They also make a lot of house brands. Without a spec sheet, you never know if what you are feeling is several inches of polyfoam on top of the latex or if you are actually lying on latex.

There are many manufacturers who use some type of “gel” memory foam and it certainly wouldn’t surprise me if they did too even though they already have a memory foam mattress since Serta has created a buzz with theirs (mostly marketing) so others tend to follow suit whether the actual material has real value or not. I don’t know anything specific about an Englander version though but so far I don’t see any really significant difference between some of the high quality memory foam that is already available and the “gel” memory foams.

The iComfort can certainly feel comfortable initially as it is softer when you first get on it than say a Tempurpedic but I question the thickness of the memory foam layers they are using. They feel most similar to the Tempur Cloud series to me but I really question the value of that much memory foam in a mattress (especially with the thicker Revolution and Prodigy models) and I think they are being sold more on “feel” rather than pressure relief in combination with correct alignment. I think that mattresses with this much memory foam are more about marketing than benefits.

I do know that there is a material which is coming very soon which is an actual gel rather than a gel memory foam which some people are very excited about. Its a “mattress” version of the Dr Scholls insole and it’s already in pillows and has even appeared in small quantities in a few mattresses over the last few years but I believe it will create some excitement. https://www.technogelsleeping.com/ . I believe it will be very expensive but in theory it should be very effective and “eliminate” many of the weaknesses of memory foam. We’ll see. I’m waiting for it to appear hopefully very soon (none of the dealers on the site seem to have it yet).

In realistic terms … comfort layers are primarily a choice between latex and memory foam as the other materials (natural fibers, microcoils, buckling column gel) are not as widely available or as popular … with the exception of course of the most popular comfort layer material of all which is polyfoam and which I would completely avoid in any amounts over 1".

There is a dealer in yellow springs who sells mattresses with a microcoil and latex comfort layer that is about 55 miles away or so in case you want to test them out. They also have Talalay latex over pocket coils and other Berkely Ergonomics mattresses.

Phoenix

Hi First of all I really want to thank you for the incredible info you have provided. My wife and I were shopping here and she and I both liked the Icomfort Revolution-going price was $2229…we thought it was a relatively good deal compared to the Tempurpedic models in the $5k range. However after reading your posts I am glad we didnt buy. Can you suggest a local manufacturer in or near Los Angeles? Also do you have any suggestions on an alternative to the Icomfort Revolution? Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Hi ma7514-

I’d like to second Phoenix on the Berkeley Ergonomics- great beds- all natural latex. Berkeley Ergonomics sells their beds really only to a relatively small number of independent stores around the US to my knowledge. All are independent of each other, but carry the same line from Berkeley. In Dallas, there is a store called Sovn that carries only Berkeley Ergonomics latex & coil + latex beds. Seems like very high quality. Also pricey though.

If nothing else- it’s a great place to check out for feel. They have several different beds on the floor usually with varying levels of firmness. Their all latex bed is a 6" dunlop core + 2" talalay top & you can configure the firmness for each side & they have different levels of firmness for you to lay on based configurations.

They also have some coil mattresses with 2" of talalay on top. Also nice. Just a different feel, so depends on what you like. But, if you could find a store in/near LA that carries Berkeley Ergonomics it’s a great place to do some research!!! Usually they are boutique stores that only carry Berkeley. I know there are a few in Northern Cal, not sure about LA.

Best of luck!

Hi Phoenix,
I am in need of a new bed and found your site. I must say this is amazing and very informative. I’m glad I found it. I have a few questions for you. I am on a budget and the bed will be place on a platform frame. So I would like to know which is the better buy? I was leaning toward the Novaform due to being from Costco or the Aerus from Sams Club just because of the warranty.

I was looking at the Novaform Bed Cal King Gel Memory foam from Costco for $599 after coupon. I contacted Sleep Innovations and they informed me that the density shouldnt be used in this case because the infused gel makes the bed feel firmer…she indicated to me that it will feel like 4-4.5lbs of density. But when I asked her how much actual density she indicated 3.25lbs (not sure how knowledge she was but she did know immediately when I pressure her for an answer)

Here is costco one and I am sure you know about it:
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Then after reading your recommendation you mention Foamex. So I found one that meets my budget which is $684. I saw it from amazon.com so its free shipping. I am not sure which to buy because they are roughly around the same price scale and level in terms of quality and construction except for Foamex, which you mention to be cooler when you sleep.

Here is the one from amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Foamex-10-Inch-Premium-Mattress-Natural/dp/B001E972MA/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

here is one from Samsclub:

Also I am located in southern California (Los Angeles/Pasadena area) and could not find a local manufacture that sells memory foam beds. I went to a few local stores however they were very pricey and only 3lbs of foam.

Also I did see that samsclub has a memory bed called Night Therapy, have you heard anything from them? The site shows its Made in China so not sure how accurate the info will be.

Please let me know which one would be a good buy:

  1. Costco Novaform Gel
  2. Amazon Foamex
  3. Samsclub Aerus

Thanks!
Lisa T

Myself:
5’8 LBS"
235 LBS
Front/Back sleeper. I toss and turn most of the night.

Wife:
5’3"
155 lbs
Stomach and side sleeper.

We also fell inlove with the iComfort bed by Serta, but am so glad I found your sight. Read as much as I could but still would feel much better with your recomendations.

We visited TheMattressFactory in FW per your sites recommendation and was not inlove with their floor model Latex Bed. But love the value in a double sided bed. We would love them to make us a mattress that closely mimicked the feel of the iComfort bed, but ofcourse not at the cost of sacrificing Spinal alignment which I understand could result from a comfort layer that is too thick.

Thx so much for helfpul info on this site

inDallas

Hi Sleepless,

I also particularly like the feel of latex over pocket springs and was very “tempted” when I was buying my mattress. Thanks too for correcting me about the Talalay which they use in the comfort layers. I didn’t link the dealer in yellow springs I was referring to and they have prices which are a fair bit lower than Sovn which I believe puts them in the better value range. When I went to edit the previous post to correct it I realized that they will have to be used as a pricing reference only since I was measuring the mileage to yellow springs california rather than yellow springs OHIO which is where they are . One of the retail outlets I listed below also carries them though.

Hi ma7514,

Some independent manufacturers in or near Los Angeles include … (more than most other cities :))

NOTE: There is an updated Los Angeles list in mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here.

https://www.flexuscomfort.com/ Local factory direct manufacturer. Very open, knowledgeable and helpful. A smaller company who may not have every option available but offers very good value and service and is also a member here which means that I believe they are among the “best of the best” in the country.

http://airdreamsmattress.com/ Local factory direct manufacturer in El Monte. Makes mostly polyfoam or memory foam (incl 5 lb) over innersprings. Can order other materials if necessary.

Banner Mattress Larger factory direct manufacturer (Banner and Scorzielli) who carries other major brands as well. They didn’t seem as eager to talk about their mattresses as most independent manufacturers are but perhaps they do better in person.

FrontPage - ComfortPedicMattress.com Local factory direct manufacturer. They too didn’t seem as open and transparent about the materials in their mattresses and kept telling me stories about other people who loved their mattresses. Seemed somewhat higher priced compared to other local factory directs.

https://customcomfortmattress.com/ Local factory direct manufacturer. They are very open and knowledgeable about their mattresses and build very high quality mattresses including 2 sided and tufted. They are higher priced than others but they are also well regarded by other manufacturers for their quality.

Foam Sweet Foam Local factory direct manufacturer. Also very knowledgeable and helpful. Has a layered “choose your own layer” mattress which can be customized and layers exchanged. Also good value

http://maximmattress.com/ Local wholesale manufacturer in Commerce, CA. They are making some good quality mattresses including microcoils, latex, and memory foam and have a retailer locator on their site.

Newport Bedding Local factory direct in Costa Mesa. Has some high quality mattresses using more “hand built” methods but are also in a more premium price range for their higher quality mattresses such as latex.

Contact Local factory direct manufacturer. Mainly polyfoam and memory foam. I would make sure that their mattresses containing latex don’t have several inches of polyfoam on top. Carries other major brands as well which sometimes makes me wonder why.

http://paramountmatt.com/ Local factory direct manufacturer. Also appears to make high quality products.

http://www.royal-pedic.com/Product.asp Smaller national manufacturer. Has a dealer finder on site. They produce some exceptional high quality mattresses … mostly latex … however they are also very high priced (IMO too high).

Sam’s Mattress Local manufacturer. Sells mostly wholesale but will sell factory direct at their outlet. Makes memory foam mostly 3 and 4 lb but will order 5 lb on request (not on their floor). Also has a latex model. There may be a wait if a mattress not on their floor is ordered.

http://www.selectabed.com/ Local manufacturer. Has some cutomizable latex and memory foam options. Mostly sell online but has a showroom in Westlake Village.

Some retail outlets that carry a range of high quality mattresses that may be well worth testing (although not necessarily in the same value range as the factory directs) include …

https://www.ergocomfort.com/mattresses/na/ Retailer. Among others they carry OMI (very high quality and price but good for reference), Natura, Pure latex bliss (great for testing talalay latex) and the Berkeley Ergonomics line.
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When you are testing … it is often well worth trying mattresses even that may be over your budget as they are often very helpful in creating a “blueprint” of the mattress that is best for you and mattresses with similar or even the same materials are often available for much less.

In terms of “duplicating” the iComfort Revolution … I probably wouldn’t try. I would focus on a mattress which has high quality “cool” memory foam (if you are committed to memory foam) but in a thinner layer than the Revolution. It has 4.75" of memory foam and another 1" of cheap polyfoam in the comfort layer which I believe is asking for body impressions … foam breakdown … and perhaps back issues. Comfort layers that thick are very risky especially if they are memory foam or polyfoam.

Hope this helps

Phoenix

Hi Lisa,

Foamex (now called FXI) is a company that manufactures polyfoam and memory foam. They have a rather unique method of manufacturing foam called VPF which produces very high quality foam IMO. They make a memory foam called Aerus which is a more breathable and cooler version of memory foam. While a more “open celled” foam is also manufactured by other foam producers using various chemical methods, holes in the foam, air channels, and gel infusions … the Aerus is among the most breathable of these. It is normally seen in 4 lb density in places like Sams Club and Walmart … it also comes in 5 lb versions that is used by some manufacturers and is alos available in toppers. They also make Sensus memory foam which is less breathable and slower responding but is also a very high quality memory foam.

Since the Sams Club and the Amazon mattresses are using the same Aerus memory foam (made by Foamex), and the Sams club has a thicker layer of polyfoam underneath it (which will likely make it a bit softer overall) and it is also a lower cost, and has a free return privilege, … the Sams club is clearly a better value IMO.

The Night Therapy brand is made by Zinus which is a Chinese manufacturer which is CertiPur certified. They don’t list the density of the memory foam which could be either 3 or 4 lbs (Zinus usually is in this range). I would choose Aerus over this even if the night therapy was 4 lb even though the Night Therapy is a little lower. I would not buy any 3 lb memory foam at all.

The Novaform gel memory foam at Costco is a lower density version of the gel memory foam in the iComfort. I roughly calculated it to be about 4 lb overall so it doesn’t surprise me that you were told what you were told. It is basically a lower quality memory foam that is infused with gel (which weighs more than memory foam) so it will “act” and “weigh” more like a higher density foam. While the gel may work to cool down the foam somewhat (just like a countertop feels cooler because it draws heat from your body) … I have not seen any evidence that it actually has that big an effect in real life. It is also true that the heavier gel makes the foam seem denser than it would be without it however it is still lower quality memory foam with heavier gel infused in it and will likely suffer the same or similar early breakdown that is part of low density memory foamss in general. I personally would choose the Aerus over the gel memory foam as I believe it has better value. Having said that … the gel does make it “act” a little different so some people may prefer its feel.

If there is a local manufacturer near you (I posted an LA list in the previous post) that offers 5 lb foam this will often represent your best value as you can test to see exactly how it fits your circumstances in terms of pressure relief and alignment rather than having to “guess” with an online memory foam outlet.

Some of the online choices in this thread (particularly post #4) may also be worth considering. While they are higher in price than the Sams Club Aerus … they also in some cases use higher quality memory foam (5 lb or higher) and/or in other cases give you the opportunity to adjusts the support layers under the memory foam to “fine tune” the mattress to your needs.

Phoenix

Hi inDallas,

I understand how a mattress that uses even the best materials may not be in the right layering to be comfortable for you. When I was testing mattresses … some of the highest quality and most expensive latex mattresses (some over $5000) were completely unsuitable for me and were very uncomfortable while those where the layering was what I needed were amazing … even though they used the same material. Some of the expensive ones were also amazing (Like the OMI Terra) although I would never pay the price and the value is not there IMO. The ILD of each layer and the thickness of each layer and how each layer interacts with each individual can make a huge difference in any mattress. I also doubt that I would make a memory foam mattress double sided as having memory foam on the bottom doesn’t seem like a great idea to me (it’s not a type of foam that is suitable for a support layer).

I’m not sure if Peter at Original Mattress even makes memory foam mattresses. There are many independent manufacturers who don’t and many others who only do so reluctantly as they are more aware of the “down side” of memory foam. Other yet have embraced it … much like people as a whole I suppose :slight_smile:

For you … it is likely that you will need a much firmer support layer with a relatively firmer/thinner comfort layer … both because of your weight and because of stomach sleeping. Tossing and turning is often a symptom of either misalignment or discomfort from pressure points and lack of circulation.

For your wife … she will need a thicker softer comfort layer for her side sleeping to help with pressure relief however it should be the absolute thinnest possible with nothing “extra” to accommodate her stomach sleeping as well. This is a particularly difficult combination (stomach and side sleeping). She will also likely need quite a firm support layer as women are often heavier in the hips than men (who have more weight in their upper bodies) and they may easily tend to sink in too far causing misalignment. If she is primarily a side sleeper then I would tend to accommodate that position more however for both of you I would pay particular attention to alignment issues and a “swayback” position when you are testing mattresses on your stomachs. In the iComfort models (or any similar memory foam mattress) … I would certainly not consider the two higher models as they are way too thick for your sleeping positions in the comfort layers … no matter how comfortable they may be for a few minutes in the store.

A couple of other factory direct manufacturers in the area that I have talked with and believe have good quality and value and may be worth adding to your research are …

Makes several latex mattresses but no true memory foam mattresses (a couple of models do have a thin layer)
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http://www.citymattressfactory.com/ Makes both memory foam and latex models.

If you have any questions along the way … feel free to post them.

Phoenix

Thank you Phoenix and Sleepless in Dallas for your responses. This is all very new to me and I appreciate your info and patience. At least I have some basic knowledge and understanding of what constitutes actual quality vs. marketing gimmicks and that’s always a good start. I also realize eventually it all comes down to personal preference (as most things do):slight_smile: . I have been looking at some latex beds now and will try and discern how they stack up for us personally. I will research the list on local manufacturers and let you know what I find.

Does anyone know 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt what the densities of foams are that are used in these mattresses? We recently had an iComfort Revolution in our store (was gifted so that we could test it out). I don’t have a way of measuring the exact weight but it felt to be about the same overall weight as the Tempur-Pedic Classic, except it was a full 2.5" thicker than the Classic and also has a thicker memory foam layer I believe over 4" total compared to 3.6" in the Classic.

Note I am not trying to compare these two mattresses, because they feel completely different…but I am very hesitant when it comes to low density memory foams or polyurethanes in general…I am curious if their base foam is lower than the 2.2lb density in the bottom of a Tempur as well.

Hi Budgy,

Good to see you here again :slight_smile:

I did a rough estimate of the density of the gel memory foam in the Serta based on the shipping weight on amazon here and it worked out to close to 5 lbs (4.72 lbs/cu ft).

I also tested the iComforts in a store and had a chance to see and feel some samples of the sample foams that are used in the Prodigy. The gel memory foam seemed to me to be fairly dense and seemed to confirm my previous calculation of close to 5lbs. The KoolComfort memory foam was MUCH lighter and seemed to me to be closer to 3 lb. I doubt it was even 4. The slow response latex was a continuous pour dunlop with no pincores. They didn’t have a sample of the 1" of polyfoam which is in between the memory foam layers in the Revolution but it certainly would be low density and soft. The owner at the store was very interested in what I was doing and we talked about the mattress underground and the industry in general and had a great conversation while I was testing out his mattresses. We both agreed (and his customer feedback indicated as well) that they were most like the Tempurpedic cloud series although the tempur foam is IMO is a better quality.

I didn’t actually measure and weigh the samples he had but there is no doubt in my mind that of the 5.75" of foam in the Revolution comfort layer, 3" of it is what I would call the typical low quality junk that I see so often in the “name brands” while only the gel memory foam is what I would call reasonable quality.

A far as the base foam goes … I would guess that it would be 1.8 or higher but I truly doubt that it is as high quality as the tempurpedic 2.2 … although I don’t know that for sure. While I wish they were more transparent about what they put in their mattresses … we both know that’s not likely to happen :slight_smile:

Phoenix

Thanks Phoenix,

Yeah I hope we made the right business decision skipping over it…to be honest I loved the feel of the stuff. But the lack of transparency is something we have a real hard time with. Low density memory foams feel great…but for how long, and how much support do they really give? Seems to me that these mattresses should have lower retail prices than they do…you and I both know that Tempur is also realistically over priced. But if we pretend for a moment they were worth every penny, they spend a lot of money on advertising and the iComfort beds are not heavily marketed in the same manner, they are almost as expensive. To me the Revolution felt most similar to the Cloud Supreme…the Supreme being a tad bit firmer, in Canada they are the same price.

Hi Budgy,

FWIW … I would have done the same thing even though they might feel good (I even thought they were OK … more the lower end ones than the upper end ones which are just way too thick IMO … which is unusual for me to say when it comes to memory foam :)).

In the end I think … it will be like when you got rid of the major manufacturers on your floor even though they “felt good” to a lot of people on the floor and “for a while” after that. I just wish that every mattress outlet made the same type of difficult decisions that you have for the sake of their long term reputation and integrity. I have a hard time believing that the foam in the iComfort will hold up for any reasonable length of time in terms of softening and degrading … even though it will likely stay under the impression exclusion with no weight on it. I have an even harder time with the fact that they are similar in price to the Tempurpedic Cloud Supreme in Canada. In the US … the Cloud Supreme on the Tempurpedic website is $2599 (queen) and the online price at places like US-Mattress or Sears for the Revolution is $1774.

Phoenix

Your ‘FWIW’ means a lot to me :slight_smile:

And clearly you understand our goals, tough decisions; but I think we make the right decision to simply remain focused on what we already do well. It is really interesting you point out the price disparity in US/Canada Pricing, the gap on Tempur has become narrower in the last couple years, and from what I understand when the new Contour Signature beds come to Canada (early 2012) they will be basically American pricing. I consider this to be very good on their part, the shipping costs in Canada are so much higher than in the US, I know this cuts into our profit margins significantly (from a retailer or manufacturer perspective).

I suppose we will see what the reviews on this product look like after more time has passed, but it certainly is very popular right now.

Good Morning,

DH and I are mattress shopping and we came across the ICOMFORT REVOLUTION. I really like the mattress, but I am not in love with the price. We were quoted like $2800 out of the door.

Our alternative was the Stearns and Foster Maplevale, which also feels lovely “in the store” and the salesman touts “this is the Cadillac of S&F”. I need support, since I experience pressure point pain, around my hip area.

Anyway, I don’t want to skimp on comfort, but I also don’t want to pay $3k as it is out of our budget, we wanted to be closer to under or up to $2k out the door.

We are looking for a KING bed… any suggestions?

This forum has a wealth of info and I am a little overwhelmed, since we are on a bit of a timeline. I gave our bedroom set to my daughter, so now we need a replacement STAT! :lol:

We are in Phoenix AZ area.

Thank you very much for any input or suggestions :slight_smile:

Me- about 150# / 5’7- side / stomach sleeper
DH- about 225# / 5’11 - side / back sleeper

Hello sleepy-in-az,

I’ll make a few quick comments before I give some more specific suggestions.

When you are looking at mattresses that contain foam in the upper layers … there are three types of foam you will encounter. Polyfoam, memory foam, and latex foam.

Of these three … polyfoam should be avoided (preferable at all but certainly no more than an inch) as it will soften and break down much more quickly … no matter how good it feels in the store. It is the cheapest foam of the three.

If you particularly like the feel of memory foam … then quality is determined to a large degree by density or lbs per cubic foot. 5 lbs/cu ft is considered to be the threshhold for high quality memory foam however some people don’t like the slower recovery and “dead” feeling or the higher sleeping temperature of many higher density foams and in this case a 4 lb memory foam or a more open celled memory foam is chosen as they are more breathable, cooler and have a little faster recovery … even though they would typically be less durable. Lower quality memory foams (under 4 lbs) have the same durability issues as polyfoam and should be avoided completely. There are cooler and hotter memory foams depending on the cell structure but all of them tend to sleep hotter than the other two foams.

Latex foam (rubber foam) has a unique combination of qualities that makes it the highest quality foam that can be used in a mattress. It is very elastic, supportive, and by far the longest lasting of all the foams. In a comfort layer it can be as pressure relieving as memory foam (if the correct foam softness is chosen for the individual), and it is the coolest of all the foams.

Most of the major brands (like Sealy, Simmmons, Serta, Stearns & Foster, Comfort Solutions (King Koil) and many others) use polyfoam in the upper layers of their mattress. They should be avoided as they will break down far too soon and there will be “soft spots” in the mattress far too soon. Even their best mattresses are significantly overpriced compared to smaller local or regional manufacturers who use much higher quality materials but charge much less than the major brands. All the major brands use various “tricks” (same mattress under many different names for example) to make meaningful comparison shopping based on materials and what is inside the mattress almost impossible for the average consumer. They sell their mattresses based on an initial perception in the store and are not open at all about the materials they use in their mattress which is the most important part of buying a mattress.

The Stearns and Foster you are looking at has at least 4" of polyfoam in the upper layers of the mattress and a meaningless .79" of latex for label copy so that they can say they use latex. This much polyfoam should always be avoided or if is necessary to use polyfoam … it should only be because your budget is in the extreme lower end of the range (which yours isn’t) and purchased from an outlet who is very knowledgeable about the different grades of polyfoam. Polyfoam comfort layers are the cheapest foams, have the lowest durability, and have the lowest level of “performance” of all the foams.

The iComfort Revolution has 5.75" of foam in the comfort layers. Of this … 2.75" is approximately 5 lb gel memory foam but above this is 1" of cheap polyfoam and then another 2" of a different kind of memory foam (what they call KoolComfort) which is a much lower quality and less dense memory foam. So this mattress has 3" of lower quality foam on top and 2" of reasonable quality memory foam over the support core.

In other words … both of these mattresses cater to the initial perceptions of a consumer in the store. These initial perceptions are very subjective and rarely translate into actual pressure relief and spinal alignment (the two main functions of a mattress) and real comfort in actual use. The foam that created these initial perceptions will also soften and degrade much too quickly and this softening and internal degrading is not covered under warranty as the actual depressions in a mattress happen long after the foam has internally softened and become unsuitable for use and even then the impressions have to be over the warranty exclusion so warranty claims are rarely honored.

So the bottom line is that either higher quality memory foam or latex foam should be the materials of choice in the comfort layers of a mattress.

Under the comfort layers … either polyfoam, innersprings, or latex foam is fine. In the support layers, polyfoam in a higher and firmer grade doesn’t have the same breakdown issues as it does in the comfort layers although even here it is important to use higher quality polyfoam. Innersprings range from poor to good but most in this price range are fine. Latex will outperform and outlast both of these in the support layer however a latex core is also more expensive.

Three of the top 4 manufacturers and their subsidiaries (Sealy (which owns Stearns & Foster), Simmons and Serta (both owned by the Ontario Teachers Federation), control about 50% of the mattress market share. Tempurpedic dominates the “specialty memory foam” market. All of these spend enormous amounts on advertising in co-operation with the mass market outlets that they closely co-operate with and are generally poor value compared to many other options. This advertising is designed to mislead and create brand loyalty rather than inform the consumer about materials and how to meaningfully compare mattresses. The top 6 manufacturers control about 75% of the market. Of the remaining 25% … many manufacturers follow the same path as the majors and manufacture and sell mattresses designed to cater to initial impressions in a store rather than a consumer who actually knows the different mattress materials and knows how to test whether a mattress will be pressure relieving, supportive, and truly comfortable in real life use over the long term. This is why independent manufacturers who sell factory direct and smaller sleep shops who have the knowledge and take the time to help you find out how each mattress they sell will fit an individual consumer are the only places where there is real value in a mattress. Unfortunately they are usually overwhelmed by the advertising and presence of the major manufacturers and the mass marketing outlets that depend on each other to sell cheaper materials at inflated prices.

There is a set of guidelines in post #6 here which will help you bypass all the misleading information and traps you are likely to encounter along the way.

You are fortunate that 2 of our members are in the Phoenix area and like all of our members and other high quality independent manufacturers, manufacture and sell among the highest value mattresses available in North America.

They are …

Both of these specialize in latex mattresses that can be customized to each individual. They also carry some memory foam options. They will share their knowledge with you about different materials and give you accurate and helpful information about their different mattresses. I have had extensive conversations with both of them and have come to trust them for their knowledge and the quality and value of their mattresses which is why I invited them to become members here.

There is one other manufacturer in or near Phoenix who I have talked with that I would also consider as a good source which is
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If you decide to purchase from one of the manufacturing members here … then don’t forget to mention that you are a member (you have registered and posted in the forum) as that will give you an additional 5% discount on what are already very high quality and value mattresses.

I am guessing based on the prices you quoted (which were much higher than these mattresses alone or with a regular base) that you may also be looking at some type of an adjustable base rather than just a regular firm base as well? I’m mentioning this because the iComfort revolution King is normally in the range of $2200 and the S&F King is in the range of $1800 - 1900 depending on the model. A lower end electric adjustable bed (with head and foot elevation) in “split king” would be $1500 or in many cases significantly more depending on brand or model. If the prices you quoted were for either a mattress alone or a mattress with a regular base … then they were higher than the norm for these two mattresses. If the prices were for these two mattresses with an electric adjustable bed with head and foot adjustment … then they are significantly lower than “normal”.

The best prices I have seen for adjustable bases is here
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although if you purchase a mattress and a base together then you may get a discount from a local outlet. There are also other ways available to change the position of the mattress that are lower cost if that is what you are looking for although they don’t have the same convenience or electronic features as an electric adjustable base. I wanted to mention this so that any mattress comparisons are “apple to apple” comparisons.

I know this was a somewhat long reply but hopefully it will help you “cut through” the noise and confusion and help you find a truly high quality and value mattress an/or sleep system that will last you for a long time.

Phoenix

WOW!!! :cheer:

Thank you so much for your feedback! I appreciate the details!!! :slight_smile:

While looking at one of the recommended members, here is what I came across King All Natural Talalay w/Free Bamboo Cover Upgrade

This sounds ideal, but I am unsure of what it is that I want and I haven’t finished exploring all of the options… I am pretty sure I don’t want soft / soft… and I don’t want extremely firm, although support is important for my pressure points (specifically in my hips)… Purchasing a mattress “virtually” is a little scary, but with your expertise, ironically feel more at ease :slight_smile:

Ok, so, I really like the feel of the ICOMFORT REVOLUTION. Which firmness would you suggest to have a similar support system?

Thank you again for your help and you are so prompt!

Sleepy-

Hi sleepy-in-az,

All of these manufacturers have actual stores in Phoenix where you can go and test the mattresses personally. The 2 that are members also sell online as they have “choose your own” layering which is a popular way of duplicating another mattress when there isn’t a local manufacturer which has high value mattresses nearby … but in your case you have the best of both worlds where you can actually go and lay on the mattresses you are considering and test for the type of layering that works best for you.

Memory foam is all considered soft and has an ILD (a measure of firmness/softness) of under 15 (which is very soft). This is a little misleading though with memory foam though because it can feel much firmer initially when it is not warmed up with body temperature/pressure and it also responds more slowly than other foams so if you push on it quickly it feels firmer but if you push on it slowly it “gives” more easily. This is why denser memory foam can feel firmer initially but you will slowly sink into it as it warms up with body heat and pressure. It is a much more “gradual” foam than latex. The densest memory foams are actually slower than the lower densities but they are better at pressure relief because they form to your body better. All memory foam is too soft to be used as a support layer (it can’t hold up your heavier parts) so it is only used in the top few inches of a mattress. It is a pressure relieving material but has the worst support qualities of all the foams which is why all memory foam mattresses use polyfoam (mostly) or latex foam in the middle and lower layers.

Latex responds more instantly to movement. This is also why it is easier to change positions or move on latex than on memory foam. It’s more “lively” and more breathable (doesn’t sleep as hot). It comes in a range from soft to firm so the softer versions (lower ILD’s) can be used on the top of a mattress (like memory foam) to relieve pressure but the firmer versions also make the most effective support layers in a mattress (unlike memory foam).

They are very different in feel though because they respond to pressure differently … although they are about equal in pressure relief because they are both so good at taking on the shape of your body profile. Typically, a comfort layer (the top few inches of the mattress that needs to be soft to relieve pressure) in latex is from 19 - 24 ILD which is firmer but more instant than memory foam. Latex can be made in an ILD as low as 14 (similar to memory foam) but this is much less common or necessary. This comfort layer is the part that shapes itself to your sleeping profile which spreads the weight out and relieves pressure. Latex takes on your shape quickly, memory foam takes on your shape more slowly.

The layers under the comfort layer (either memory foam or latex) need to be firmer as this is the part that holds up your heavier parts. This can either be polyfoam (which is under most memory foam mattresses) or latex foam (which is much higher quality and supports much better than polyfoam but is more expensive).

The thickness and softness of the comfort layer is determined mostly by weight, body shape, and your sleeping positions. Side sleeping needs thicker and softer (more pointy parts like hips and shoulders that tend to have pressure issues), back sleeping need something “in the middle” and stomach sleeping needs the thinnest comfort layer of all. The reason for the thicker comfort layer for side sleepers is mainly to allow the shoulders to sink in enough so they are in alignment with the hips and the pressure in both hips and shoulders their can be relieved. The thicker comfort layer will also fill in the recessed gaps in the waist so the lumbar/waist has support.

The firmness of the support layers under the comfort layers depends on weight and body shape as well. Most people have heavier hips and the support layers need to be firm enough to stop your hips from sinking in too much and causing your spine to bend out of alignment and causing lower back issues. Typically a support layer will have an ILD of at least 28 and they go up to about 44 (Extra firm).

So the comfort layers relieve pressure … the support layers keep you in alignment.

What I would suggest is that you go into the stores and lay on some latex and compare the feel and different ILD’s and layerings of latex to memory foam and you will quickly get a sense (with their help as they are all very knowledgeable and helpful) of the layering that gives you the best pressure relief and alignment in all your sleeping positions and you will know the difference in how they feel.

You are fortunate because you have the chance to actually test mattresses that many people around the country are ordering online when they don’t have a local factory direct manufacturer nearby.

Phoenix

[quote=“Phoenix” post=590]Hi Lisa,

Foamex (now called FXI) is a company that manufactures polyfoam and memory foam. They have a rather unique method of manufacturing foam called VPF which produces very high quality foam IMO. They make a memory foam called Aerus which is a more breathable and cooler version of memory foam. While a more “open celled” foam is also manufactured by other foam producers using various chemical methods, holes in the foam, air channels, and gel infusions … the Aerus is among the most breathable of these. It is normally seen in 4 lb density in places like Sams Club and Walmart … it also comes in 5 lb versions that is used by some manufacturers and is alos available in toppers. They also make Sensus memory foam which is less breathable and slower responding but is also a very high quality memory foam.

Since the Sams Club and the Amazon mattresses are using the same Aerus memory foam (made by Foamex), and the Sams club has a thicker layer of polyfoam underneath it (which will likely make it a bit softer overall) and it is also a lower cost, and has a free return privilege, … the Sams club is clearly a better value IMO.

The Night Therapy brand is made by Zinus which is a Chinese manufacturer which is CertiPur certified. They don’t list the density of the memory foam which could be either 3 or 4 lbs (Zinus usually is in this range). I would choose Aerus over this even if the night therapy was 4 lb even though the Night Therapy is a little lower. I would not buy any 3 lb memory foam at all.

The Novaform gel memory foam at Costco is a lower density version of the gel memory foam in the iComfort. I roughly calculated it to be about 4 lb overall so it doesn’t surprise me that you were told what you were told. It is basically a lower quality memory foam that is infused with gel (which weighs more than memory foam) so it will “act” and “weigh” more like a higher density foam. While the gel may work to cool down the foam somewhat (just like a countertop feels cooler because it draws heat from your body) … I have not seen any evidence that it actually has that big an effect in real life. It is also true that the heavier gel makes the foam seem denser than it would be without it however it is still lower quality memory foam with heavier gel infused in it and will likely suffer the same or similar early breakdown that is part of low density memory foamss in general. I personally would choose the Aerus over the gel memory foam as I believe it has better value. Having said that … the gel does make it “act” a little different so some people may prefer its feel.

If there is a local manufacturer near you (I posted an LA list in the previous post) that offers 5 lb foam this will often represent your best value as you can test to see exactly how it fits your circumstances in terms of pressure relief and alignment rather than having to “guess” with an online memory foam outlet.

Some of the online choices in this thread (particularly post #4) may also be worth considering. While they are higher in price than the Sams Club Aerus … they also in some cases use higher quality memory foam (5 lb or higher) and/or in other cases give you the opportunity to adjusts the support layers under the memory foam to “fine tune” the mattress to your needs.

Phoenix[/quote]

Hi Phoenix,
Thank you for your response. I ended up trying the Ortho from the store and they had a 10in memory foam and felt good but the price was out of my range. So I ended up ordering the one from Sams Club just because of their great warranty. I tried out the bed last night and my back is hurting…is there a break in period?

Also I am checking out the one you mention from https://www.flexuscomfort.com/. They have a special for Cal King for $500 for the set. They indicated they have 5lbs memory foam but is only 8.5 inch thick.

I have a few questions:

  1. Would it be a better bed if I got the https://www.flexuscomfort.com/ and returned my Sams Club one?
  2. Is there a difference between 12 inch (Sams Club) vs 8.5 inch (https://www.flexuscomfort.com/)
  3. Is there a break in period for memory foam

Thanks again Phoenix for all your help.

Hi Phoenix,

I’m back :blush:

So, we stopped by Sleep Ez… interesting little set up… DH did not like the Sleep Select systems. We tried a the ones that they had modeled and he just wasn’t sold on them. We tried and liked the “LUXURION”- 3" Natural latex with 6" Soy base support foam-- It’s not pillow top though.

The price is great and its comfortable, but I feel a little buyer’s remorse :frowning: It has to be made and we should have it by Wednesday, but now I am uncertain if I made the right choice, and I cannot find any reviews about this bed!:dry:

Can you tell me a comparable mattress to the 3" Latex / 6" Soy base support foam? I would just like to have more info than the brief description provided on the site (though, I did try it out in the store).

Thank you again for your help!

*Oh and I mentioned “mattress underground” and the woman that was helping us looked at me with a blank look… and come time to pay, the total didn’t include a discount… Didn’t even think about it or realize it.