Thoughts on mattress configuration with Foam Sweet Foam

[Andrew275]

Hi Phoenix,

First off, thank you so much for creating such an informative site. I’d never even heard of latex mattresses before coming here. We also didn’t know how bad the mattress we’d just ordered a month before was – we sent it back because it was way too firm, but we did not realize at the time that it was also a fairly low quality product.

My wife and I have been doing a lot of research for about a week, and are completely sold on getting an all latex mattress (king size). The configuration I’m planning to order from Foam Sweet Foam is a ~20 ILD talalay top, ~25 ILD dunlop middle, and ~31 ILD dunlop bottom.

I started out thinking that all talalay would be the way to go, but after trying some beds, our favorite two have had a 6" dunlop support layer (one was ~28 ILD and the other was ~34). Both actually felt pretty good , although I preferred the 28, and my wife though it could stand to be a bit softer. For the top, we really like soft, and I also like my bed to feel as cool as possible. We’ve tried both dunlop and talalay top layers, and talalay has been the favorite for both of us.

We started off trying a PLB World’s Best, which we both agreed felt great initially (we love soft), but I don’t think it would have provided enough support for me. We also tried a Savvy Rest all-talalay bed configured roughly 22-32-38 ILD. I thought it could stand to be a bit softer, and my wife definitely did.

We’ve also had the chance to try a couple of configurations with the 6" dunlop support I was referring to, in combination with a topper. One combination was a 4" wool topper from Soaring Heart on top of their firm support (which I believe is somewhere around 34 ILD). This felt pretty good to both of us, but our favorite has been the 6" 28 ILD dunlop with the “Montlake Topper” on it, which has 2" of 75 kg/m3 dunlop, an inch of some unknown latex, and 2" of wool. The biggest problem we had with this was the topper gave us somewhat of a sinking/difficult to move feeling, which I think the talalay would alleviate. We also would have liked it to be a little bit softer.

All that said, our love of softness, breathability, and responsiveness is pushing us towards the soft talalay top. My thinking with bottom two layers is that the 25 + 31 dunlop will match up reasonably well with the 6" 28 dunlop we tried, and would perhaps be a bit softer (which is fine with us), while still supportive since it’s dunlop.

I spoke to FSF for a few minutes today, and the person I spoke to seemed to agree with my thinking.

My biggest concerns with this setup would be:
#1 - will it be soft enough for us? We can’t get anything softer than the 20 talalay in the top layer, which leaves the middle layer as the thing we can tweak. 25 still seems pretty soft, but I’m hoping that with it also being dunlop, it will be a good mix of soft + supportive. We would like to avoid adding a separate topper if possible.
#2 - temperature/breathability. I know talalay sleeps cooler than dunlop. Are we throwing away this benefit by doing dunlop in the lower layers?
#3 - does mixing the latex types like I’m thinking make sense? Especially for two people who really enjoy soft bedding?
#4 - enough support? I think so, especially after spending probably 10-15 minutes on the 6" 28 core, but it’s hard to know.

Sorry for so much writing; I’m just trying to make sure what I’m doing makes sense before ordering. BTW, I am 6’ and about 185, no back or joint problems, somewhat broad-shouldered, and spend most of my time sleeping on my side. My wife is 5’2, curvy profile, mostly side sleeping, and enjoys as soft as possible (without hurting her back, of course). She also has no back or joint problems.

Thanks so much!

[phoenix]

Hi Andrew275,

If I understand you correctly your preference was (from top to bottom) …

2" wool
1" unknown latex
2" 75 kg/m3 Dunlop (probably in the range of about mid 20’s in ILD)
6" 28 ILD Dunlop (which is probably slightly firmer than the 75 kg density range)

I don’t really know how to compare wool to latex because it would depend on how the wool topper was made and the tufting, density, and compression of the wool and this is also in combination with an unknown latex layer which is also in the upper layers and would have an effect on the feel of the comfort layers but I would guess that based on your comments it would appear to be in the range of “soft”.

All that said, our love of softness, breathability, and responsiveness is pushing us towards the soft talalay top. My thinking with bottom two layers is that the 25 + 31 dunlop will match up reasonably well with the 6" 28 dunlop we tried, and would perhaps be a bit softer (which is fine with us), while still supportive since it’s dunlop.

I spoke to FSF for a few minutes today, and the person I spoke to seemed to agree with my thinking.

3" of 25 ILD and 3" of 312 ILD would probably be a little softer feeling than 6" of 28 ILD Dunlop because you will feel more of the upper layer than the bottom layer but Dunlop ILD’s are not exact anyway and only a “range” so it may be fairly close. If I’m following you correctly you are considering a “soft” Talalay layer on top of this in the hopes that it will approximate the 2" of wool and the 1" of unknown latex so your complete mattress would be …

3" of “soft” @20 ID Talalay
3" of @25 +/- a few ILD Dunlop
3" of @31 +/- a few ILD Dunlop

My biggest concerns with this setup would be:

#1 - will it be soft enough for us? We can’t get anything softer than the 20 talalay in the top layer, which leaves the middle layer as the thing we can tweak. 25 still seems pretty soft, but I’m hoping that with it also being dunlop, it will be a good mix of soft + supportive. We would like to avoid adding a separate topper if possible.

I don’t know what would be “soft enough” for you but 20 ILD Talalay would be quite soft for most people. The dunlop underneath it would also be softer than would typoically be used so this would be “on the soft side” overall.

#2 - temperature/breathability. I know talalay sleeps cooler than dunlop. Are we throwing away this benefit by doing dunlop in the lower layers?

No not IMO. The upper layer of Talalay, the mattress cover, quilting, mattress protector, and your sheets will have a bigger effect on sleeping temperature than the middle or lower layers (see post #2 here)

#3 - does mixing the latex types like I’m thinking make sense? Especially for two people who really enjoy soft bedding?

Yes … 6" of Dunlop with 3" of Talalay is a popular configuration and many people prefer it.

#4 - enough support? I think so, especially after spending probably 10-15 minutes on the 6" 28 core, but it’s hard to know.

Don’t forget that support is not as important as alignment. Alignment is the goal and support is the means. Your mattress will be a little less firm than the one you tried “in theory” but with the variations of Dunlop and with such big differences in the top 3" materials it really isn’t possible to know with any certainty. I would say that it would probably work well for her but it may be a little on the soft side overall for you but I think that Scott would probably have a much better idea of how it would work for you based on the “averages” of his customers that are similar to you because he knows much more than I do about the specifics of the materials and his cover and how they interact together than I do. He is good at what he does.

Sorry for so much writing; I’m just trying to make sure what I’m doing makes sense before ordering. BTW, I am 6’ and about 185, no back or joint problems, somewhat broad-shouldered, and spend most of my time sleeping on my side. My wife is 5’2, curvy profile, mostly side sleeping, and enjoys as soft as possible (without hurting her back, of course). She also has no back or joint problems.

Overall there are enough differences between what you tested and what you are considering that I would build in a realistic expectation of a layer exchange as a backup (which is a fairly simple process) so that you don’t have unrealistic expectations and you consider ordering the mattress as a three step process. Step one is the layers as you outlined,step two is the top layer with the 31 underneath it and the 25 on the bottom which would increase the firmness of the support layers, and step 3 would be a layer exchange based on your experiences in step one and/or two … and then I would consider it a bonus if it only takes one step or two steps to get to your ideal

Phoenix

[Andrew275]

Hi Phoenix,

Thank you so much for your help (especially so late)!

If I understand you correctly your preference was (from top to bottom) …

2" wool
1" unknown latex
2" 75 kg/m3 Dunlop (probably in the range of about mid 20’s in ILD)
6" 28 ILD Dunlop (which is probably slightly firmer than the 75 kg density range)

I don’t really know how to compare wool to latex because it would depend on how the wool topper was made and the tufting, density, and compression of the wool and this is also in combination with an unknown latex layer which is also in the upper layers and would have an effect on the feel of the comfort layers but I would guess that based on your comments it would appear to be in the range of “soft”.

I looked back over my original post, and I wasn’t clear about this. As far as the comfort “feel” of the mattress, we both preferred the World’s Best over anything else we tried. So essentially 6" of soft Talalay. Support was where the other configuration (mystery topper plus 6" 28 ILD Dunlop) won out, particularly for me. I would have loved to have tried something like a 2 or 3 inch soft Talalay topper over the 28 ILD Dunlop, but that wasn’t available. I’ve learned that anyone who gets to try out exactly what they want is very lucky indeed.

3" of 25 ILD and 3" of 312 ILD would probably be a little softer feeling than 6" of 28 ILD Dunlop because you will feel more of the upper layer than the bottom layer but Dunlop ILD’s are not exact anyway and only a “range” so it may be fairly close.

That was my thinking as well, both with this being an inexact science to begin with, and with our proposed configuration probably being a little bit softer (which we both were ok with).

Don’t forget that support is not as important as alignment. Alignment is the goal and support is the means. Your mattress will be a little less firm than the one you tried “in theory” but with the variations of Dunlop and with such big differences in the top 3" materials it really isn’t possible to know with any certainty. I would say that it would probably work well for her but it may be a little on the soft side overall for you but I think that Scott would probably have a much better idea of how it would work for you based on the “averages” of his customers that are similar to you because he knows much more than I do about the specifics of the materials and his cover and how they interact together than I do. He is good at what he does.

I was able to speak to Scott this morning (I talked to someone else yesterday). He agreed that the configuration we were looking at sounded reasonable, based on the preferences and body types I told him.

Overall there are enough differences between what you tested and what you are considering that I would build in a realistic expectation of a layer exchange as a backup (which is a fairly simple process) so that you don’t have unrealistic expectations and you consider ordering the mattress as a three step process. Step one is the layers as you outlined,step two is the top layer with the 31 underneath it and the 25 on the bottom which would increase the firmness of the support layers, and step 3 would be a layer exchange based on your experiences in step one and/or two … and then I would consider it a bonus if it only takes one step or two steps to get to your ideal

We’re both ready for the possibility of having to shift layers around or do an exchange, although we are of course trying as hard as we can to get it right the first time. After reading your response and talking to Scott, I placed the order this morning. I will report back on how it turns out for us.

Thanks again!
-Andrew

[phoenix]

Hi Andrew,

I think that you did the research and “analysis” along with the conversation with Scott that would have the best odds of working very well for you in terms of PPP and of course it would also be less risk then the WBB in terms of alignment and gives you many options if you need to do any fine tuning based on your actual longer term experience of actually sleeping on the mattress.

I think you made a great choice … and congratulations on your new mattress

Phoenix

[PrincessAndThePea]

I thought I’d share my recent experience as I ended up returning my FSF configuration which sounds like the one you ordered (soft Talalay / med. Dunlop / firm Dunlop) and I bought the PLB World’s Best (with the latex foundation AND a topper, which I need only if sleeping on my side). I never did a layer exchange, although I was about to, but then fell prey to shopping when tired and not being able to pass up a good deal, which is why I’m now going to be sleeping on a PLB bed.

If I had to do it all over again with FSF, I would probably order all Talalay layers, and I would get the four layer mattress with two layers of soft Talalay / one med. Talalay / one firm Talalay. Or even one soft / two med./ one firm, and you could always exchange one medium for a soft if it’s too firm. I’d also probably order the four way stretch cover from Sleep EZ because FSF’s cotton/wool quilted cover did not work for me. With all my layers in it, the bed felt like a drum, and even when I took the firmest layer out and put it under the mattress, I wasn’t even moderately comfortable until I rolled back the top portion of the cover and slept with just a mattress pad and sheet between the top Talalay layer and me. The support felt fine when I laid on my back but I would wake up with my arm falling asleep if I slept on my side. To fall asleep again I’d have to lie on my stomach, which is an indicator to me that a bed is too firm (when I can only get comfortable on my stomach). You can search the forum for my post called Misery on Latex which detailed my soft Talalay / med Dunlop / firm Dunlop experience.

Or, I would get three layers of Talalay (S/M/F), see how that felt, and then if I needed more cushiness, I’d order another soft layer and the stretch cover from Sleep EZ. I do think that the FSF cover makes the mattress feel quite firm if all the layers are crammed in there, so if I was going for three layers, I might ask if I could get the four layer cover in order to give the layers a bit of space.

I’m 125 lbs with no back issues, and when I laid down on a PLB mattress I was surprised by the difference their latex foundation made, as I was sure I needed no more than nine inches. What was the point if I barely made a dent in the top layer, right? Wrong! In some weird Princess and the Pea way, more latex, even at 46 ILD or whatever is in the foundation, alleviated more pressure. I didn’t believe this when I was at FSF, but I would definitely pick four layers over three if I had a do over.

Anyway, I don’t want to steer you wrong as all this is just my opinion and my experience, but I would at a minimum, if the mattress hasn’t shipped yet, upgrade to four all Talalay layers, the actual configuation of firmness being up to you.

Good luck!

[phoenix]

Hi PrincessAndThePea,

I wanted to make a comment that your choices are considerably out of the range of “average” and most people wouldn’t do so well with what you are sleeping on over the longer term. What can work well for one person can be very different from what works well for someone else … particularly if they are well outside of the “standard” range of choices.

I would also suggest that the guidance of a manufacturer that has many thousands of customers and has years of experience with fitting their mattress to different body types would be a much better way to make good choices than the experience of a single person.

I know your experience with FSF didn’t work out as well as you’d hoped but they have a long history of a very high percentage of success with their customers.

Some of your suggestions (while they certainly work well for you and I’m happy for that) are considerably different from what most people would do well with and one of the biggest causes of longer term issues with a mattress is a choice that is too soft leading to alignment issues which are difficult to fix.

Phoenix

[PrincessAndThePea]

Hi Phoenix,

I had a feeling that this would be your response, so I will clarify that I wasn’t commenting to say that my choices should be that of the OP, but to let them know that the configuration they ordered from FSF was like night versus day from the PLB World’s Best (which they said felt great) and what changes I think would have made the FSF setup feel more like the World’s Best (not exactly, just “more,” since the OP didn’t think it would have enough support for him).

I had the opportunity to deal with FSF quite a bit and visited the showroom several times, and can say from that experience that the people at Savvy Rest and Sleep EZ were much more helpful in customizing a mattress. FSF may have a lot of customers, but they told me they mostly sell medium-firm, and don’t really seem to take much interest in helping customers find the right fit as would be expected. I didn’t want to post anything negative, but on my first trip down there, five minutes before closing I was basically told that if I’m not buying anything, I need to leave, and then, when trying to figure out how to make the mattress work better for me, was told that I spent time lying on the beds in the showroom (maybe 10-15 max per mattress) and they were surprised that I didn’t nail it down correctly from that. Why did I buy from them? Well, desperation from sleeping on a 10 year old innerspring and needing to make a choice. They aren’t who I would turn to for advice, not after having conversations with Savvy Rest and Sleep EZ.

Anyway, hope the OP finds the setup more to his liking than I did.

[phoenix]

Hi PrincessAndThePea,

I had a feeling that this would be your response, so I will clarify that I wasn’t commenting to say that my choices should be that of the OP, but to let them know that the configuration they ordered from FSF was like night versus day from the PLB World’s Best (which they said felt great) and what changes I think would have made the FSF setup feel more like the World’s Best (not exactly, just “more,” since the OP didn’t think it would have enough support for him).

Thanks for the clarification. While most people would feel very good on the WBB … because of the bias towards “comfort” in most showroom testing it would be a very risky choice for most people no matter how good it may feel. Long term experience when they actually sleep on it can be very different from “showroom feel” and most (but not all) people who choose something that soft and thick in the comfort layers would probably come to regret it no matter how it feels.

I’m not sure why you had the experience you did or who you were dealing with but in addition to phone calls I recently had the chance to spend some time and have coffee with Scott the owner of FSF when he was traveling in my area and I can assure you he knows what he is talking about. Your experience is definitely unfortunate and perhaps related to starting so close to closing time but I don’t think I would be happy with what you described either. Whatever the reason … it certainly doesn’t reflect the knowledge, experience, or willingness to help their customers that are their “norm”.

Phoenix