I think we have made a decision to try a 3"/3"/2" mattress. Configured to 38/32/27.
We think a cotton stretch cover sounds great for a cover as opposed to a quilted wool cover. At least we can fluff up a wool topper or take it off or replace it easier than we could a quilted wool cover. I would assume it would eventually compress down. I think it would be nice to be closer to the latex if it doesn’t make us hot. Maybe the wool topper could help if we get hot and need some wool to help regulate the temperature.
Do you have any thoughts on this configuration. Should the ILD’s be changed in the slightest bit. It seems that this is an economical way to go and we can test it against the n5/n5/n4 (38/38/32) since it will be made in split layers. If we learn that 3"/3"/3" are better for us there are options available to us with the stretch cover which we preferred in the beginning. It seems to me that the 3"/3"/2" could work nicely for us.
I still have read in places where 100% natural talalay is more elastic, springy, than blended. Do you feel there is a difference. The only place we have tried blended is at Layers and that was on beds that were either too soft or beds with dunlop over poly. Nevertheless they didn’t feel that springy.
Do you have any thoughts on who offers a breathable waterproof pad?
In theory … this seems that it could work as per our previous discussions. In practice however your experience may be different because of the many variables in sleeping positions and each person’s different sensitivities to both pressure issues and alignment. Layer thickness can play just as big a role as layer softness and since this is an untested layering for you … your experience may vary from theory. The basis for the possibility is that a 2" layer seems to be in the range of overall thickness that both you and your wife can build a layering scheme that would work well for both of you. The “risk” for you is that the top layer isn’t pressure relieving enough even though your experience seems to indicate that this would be OK. The “risk” for your wife would be that the top layer wouldn’t be soft enough for her lighter weight (even though the thickness is typical for back sleeping). Based on your experiences though … the “odds” say that it would likely be OK although I would put being “right” over the small difference in cost which spread out over the life of a mattress will not be that significant. Of course I wouldn’t bet my house on it … but I’d throw $5 into the pot
I also think that a non quilted cover gives you options that quilting built into the cover doesn’t offer … although there are many who hold different opinions about this (involves different fire retardant methods and introduces variables that are slightly different from what may have been tested etc.).
When it comes down to the final details or “exact” ILD’s bear in mind that there is no such thing as a layer that is “exactly” a certain ILD and that a difference of 4 or less is not really noticeable for most people. With details that are that “fine” I recommend that people go with their instincts or “gut feeling” based on what you have tested rather than a recommendation from someone who has never “felt” what they felt. In general you will have a sense once you’ve tested various layerings of the ones that were close to the edge of either pressure relief or alignment and whether it’s “safe” to adjust a little bit in one direction or another for either pressure relief or alignment. The 3" layer may be safer (because you’ve tested it). The 2" layer may be more “accurate” but a little riskier.
I would also take into account any recommendations or comments from the actual outlet you plan to purchase from as they all have a lot of experience with a wide variety of different people using the specific materials and ILD’s that they generally use or have available (although most can custom order something different) in combination with the layering patterns that they are familiar with. In the end … while it always desirable to get it right the first time … it’s also important to have the ability to “fix” any mistakes because the process of choosing a mattress is never an exact science … even though testing and some careful research can put the odds much more in your favor. sleeping experience over time can be different from time spent in a showroom. Careful testing can make it very likely that you will make the best choices the first time but there are always exceptions and it’s a good idea to be prepared for this just in case and “build it in” to your purchase choices. Layer exchanges, refund policies, or a local manufacturer who will change out a layer or make other adjustments are all ways that mistakes can be fixed with little risk or expense (although there will usually be some).
In terms of heat … layers that are firmer (in relationship to a particular weight) tend to “wrap you up” a little less and are usually less of a heat problem. Talalay latex is also the most breathable foam so here too the heat issue is reduced or eliminated for most people. Because of the breathability of wool, this can help with heat issues for those who are very sensitive or have a “hot engine” inside them. Mattress pads or protectors, sheets, and bedding can all make a significant difference to heat issues without having to adjust the mattress itself.
100% Talalay is more springy or elastic than blended but with a single layer it wouldn’t be noticeable for most people. With a whole mattress however the difference would be more noticeable. This could be a positive or negativ depending on the preference of an individual and on how they interact with the mattress. What can be “springy” for on person can feel “bouncy” for another or even “dead” to another depending on perception, what they’re used to, and on different body shapes and weights. The 100% natural is a denser material as well and not quite as “stiff” as blended which also means that there is a greater tendency to sink in a little deeper. Pure Latex Bliss is a mattress brand owned by the largest manufacturer of Talalay in North America and they have a blog which has an article here which describes the difference from their perspective. Note that what they call “natural” is blended and “all natural” is their 100% natural Talalay.
Mattress pads or protectors are a series of tradeoffs. The “waterproof” versions that have a membrane (like gore-tex_ which allows water vapor through but blocks water are less breathable than those that are made of wool which are water resistant but far more breathable. For most people the thinner membrane type are a good compromise but for those who want the most breathability then a water resistant protector or pad is the way to go. More in this thread here (post #5 in particular with actual temperature measurements), and post #2 here, about the tradeoffs involved. A forum search on “protectors” (without the quotes) will bring up more.
Hope this helps
Phoenix
PS: I deleted the other post which was a duplicate and somehow created a new thread. Hope that’s OK
I will talk to Shawn again today to order our bed. I am ordering the 8" special with one side 2"-24, 3"-36, 3"-40 and the other side 2"-28, 3"-32, 3"-40.
We have now tried the pure latex bliss pamper with and with out 2" and 3" topper, nature, and beautiful.
Pamper is 1" 19 ild over 6" of 40 ild. It was nicer than the 3"n4/3"n5/3"n5 for me and my wife liked it as well. It would have been nice to have a little thicker comfort layer. It felt supportive and my muscles could relax, but we could use a little bit more of a comfort layer. With a 3" 14 ild topper it was too soft and not supportive. With a 2" topper it was okay, but a little on the soft side. The pamper alone seemed as though it could be really close if it had 1 more inch of a comfort layer.
Beautiful is 3" 14 ild over 2" 24 ild over 6" of 36 ild and it was too soft and way to thick of a comfort layer, 5".
Nature is 2" 19 ild over 1" 28 ild over 6" 36 ild. It felt pretty good. I felt it could have been a hair more supportive. We both felt it was pressure relieving in all positions, but its softness made it harder to flip over and we felt a little too cradled.
I think we are starting to feel as though 2" of a comfort layer would be just right or a firmer, maybe n3, as you suggest for a 3" top layer. It seems that when it goes over 3" it is just too much foam without the support and too soft of a 3" inch layer is just too confining.
I feel confident that we could make a perfect mattress from what I mentioned at the top. It would be great to know exactly which way to go, but we don’t. Do you have any thoughts on any of the qualities we felt in these beds or the bed I would like to order knowing that a couple layers would need to be swapped once we knew what was right. Shawn and I are being very upfront with each other about special ordering and swapping and we both understand each others side. I don’t know where else to go to test and I don’t know which one would be right for us without trying them. I wish I did to make it better for both sleepez and us, but I don’t. I don’t think a company or us want to go in knowing we are going to have to swap, but it just seems like that is the case. I am okay with that, but it would be better for sleepez if we knew exactly what we wanted.
Just for reference (in case others are following along) … the Beautiful has 3" of 19 ILD on the top rather than 14 according to the specs I have. In your case it’s not so important though because either way it’s too thick and soft in the comfort zone.
It seems clear to me based on your testing that a 2" comfort layer is the closest to your ideal. Of course the ILD of this layer and the layers under it are still to be fine tuned but it seems that softer latex can work well as long as it’s not too thick and the support layers under it are firm enough. It also seems that the support layers need to be more than the 28/36 (average about 33) in the Nature with 2" of 19. This also tells me that the ideal 2" layer doesn’t need a lot of “help” from the layers below it.
As you mentioned … if you do go thicker (to 3") it would make sense to make up for it with more firmness and I clearly agree that more than 3" seems to be out of your “zone”. Given what you have mentioned with the Pamper (alone and with toppers), Nature, and Beautiful though … along with your other testing that showed a clear preference for firmer comfort layers that were 3" thick, it seems that a 2" comfort layer that was “adjusted” up or down with the layers below it would be very close to your “ideal”.
I also really like what you have done with the mattress you are planning to order. You have clearly chosen layering that gave you as many options as possible for fine tuning and there is no doubt in my mind that the “ideal” for both of you is in these layers. I also wouldn’t be surprised at all if the “perfect” layering for each/both of you is possible with the layers you have chosen but if not you would certainly know which if any need to be exchanged. While this is outside of the “normal” range of choices that are offered … I also know that as far as possible Shawn will “stretch” as far as he can within the limits of the prices he offers.
I’m still paying close attention to this post. Thanks to the both of you for all the great detail and personal experience. My future purchase will be greatly assisted by the knowledge gained in this post.
Hay, the 2" top layer idea has me thinking about the overall adjustability of the SleepEZ 10,000.
Technically -I’m guessing- one could fine tune the top 3 layers with (3) separate and distinct 2" layers with the bottom layer consisting of (1) 3" layer.
Something like this perhaps?
(1) 3" layer of 40 & (3) 2" layers of each 36, 32, 28. -or-
(1) 3" layer of 44 & (3) 2" layers of each 40, 36, 32.
And the 13,000 could afford this option to an even grater extent. The ability to fine tune (5) or even (6) separate and distinct layers of latex.
Could this be the perfect (5) layer latex mattress? …(1) 3" layer of 44, (1) 3" layer of 40 & (3) 2" layers of each 36, 32, 28.
I don’t think this would be possible in the price range of the SleepEz line and you would be looking more at a custom designed mattress which would likely cost more.
One of the reasons that the Select Sleep line has such good value is that it contains standardized layer thicknesses (3" layers and a top layer of 2" in the case of the 9000) and a specific range of firmness levels (soft medium, firm, Xfirm) which can accommodate the needs of most people. While I know that Shawn will custom order a firmness level that is outside the “norm” (for those who are willing to wait a bit if he doesn’t have it in inventory) … I don’t think this would apply to custom layer thicknesses outside of the design of the different models.
Of course you could always ask him but it would surprise me.
That’s quite a drive for a “spur of the moment” trip
I don’t know of anything in Lexington that would tell you any more than what you’ve laid on already.
There’s no factory directs there that I’m aware of and the best latex choice I know of would be Healthy Back which has their own versions of the Pure Latex bliss which you’ve already tried.
I tried to order the bed yesterday in a configuration that I believe we wouldn’t need to return anything. I had a chance to go back to Savvy Rest because I was near the area yesterday. I don’t care for the wool mattress encasing. It is nice, but after trying several beds without it and just a cotton/rayon cover, we feel the latex much more and appreciate it. Also I was helping some people move and was feeling a little sore and definitely wanted some pressure relief when I was testing mattresses. I talked to my wife about pressure relief and she agreed she thinks it is beneficial and we talked about our experience with the pamper and nature pure latex bliss models. We both liked the nature though it cradled us a little to much for our liking, but it was comfortable. On the other hand we like the feel of a firm mattress to some degree. The pamper was nice, but a little too firm. While I was at savvy rest I noted that the n4/n5/n5 did not let my middle sink in enough while any of the combinations with M dunlop or n4 in the middle layer did. I also know that the nature plb model was good with 36 ild in the middle with its 1" of 28 over it and 2" of 19 over it. Though I believe it would have been better with 3" of 36 over 3" of 40 for us. I remember previously writing that it could have been a tad more supportive, but that was coming right off of the pamper, 1" of 19 over 6" of 40. The n4/n4/n5 from a previous trip to savvy didn’t seem to be as supportive with 3" of 32 in the middle and 3" of 32 on top. This leads me to thinking that 3" of 36 in the middle over 3" of firmer latex such as 40 is a good base for us if we are going to put 3" of something else over it. I tried n2/n5/n5 at savvy, but for my soreness at the time yesterday after moving it didn’t feel perfect, actually n2/n4/n5 felt better, but not as supportive. I still notice a difference in the n4 as a middle layer and the n5 as one and I think I am better aligned with a little softer layer than n5 as the middle layer. I laugh now, thinking how mattresses feel different depending on your bodies condition at the time you try them and the time span we have had of trying all these mattresses. It is a long investment.
Not that much of this is new information, but it does make me think that 2" of 24 or 28 over 3" of 32 over 3" of 40 is a good combination for us for an 8" mattress, which you have mentioned for a while. Maybe even 1"19/1"24- 28/3"32-36/3"40 would be nice also. We now think a layer of pressure relief might be important. So it seems that 1"-1.5"19/2"28/3"36/3"40 would be a great bed for us. I think this would give us the support we need, the feel we like, and the pressure relief we prefer without the complete cradling feel. Any thoughts from you on this would be nice, but these are my instincts. I at least think the 2"28/3"36/3"40 is a good base for us to add a thin pressure relief layer too and 19 seems to fit that bill, but realizing that 2" on the nature was a bit too much and knowing it only had 1" of 28 under it.
Well now to the difficulty. Shawn can order a 8" special in 28/36/40 and can even make the cotton casing bigger to fit another layer of latex since they already offer them and have them made specifically for them. On top of that the website claims to sell 1" and 1.5" of blended talalay toppers, but it appears the website is overdue for a revamp and they no longer offer them . So with my hopes dashed on the phone of finally ordering a bed I’m trying to find out if you know anyone who sells 1" or maybe 1.5", but I think 1" will be right, of 19 ild LI or radium blended talalay latex. I know sleep like a bear does, but there prices seem to be pretty high. I don’t know if foam sweet foam, arizona mattresses, myfoammattress.com, or anyone else would carry it for cheaper and if there is a member on here that sells it.
Thank you so much for your ongoing help. We appreciate it a lot.
I can completely relate to this and have often experienced it in my own testing. Our subjective perceptions and the “moods” and circumstances of our days makes it very difficult to differentiate what is the “objective” part of what we are feeling and what is the “subjective” part. The subjective part can have so many variables that it’s easy to design to increasingly small detail that in the end is more about how we change from day to day than it is about the mattress itself.
You have clearly done some very accurate testing that takes into account many of the finer details about different mattresses and have come to a point that you can recognize consistent patterns in different constructions and layering. This however can never fully take into account how our sensitivities and needs change within a range over the course of days , weeks, and months. The challenge then for those who are designing to this level of detail is to choose a layer pattern that seems to best accommodate all the changes that we go through on a constant basis.
The difficulty of 1" layers is both that they are not as easily available (in talalay at least) and that they are also more fragile and susceptible to tearing and damage from mishandling (which is probably part of the reason why they are not as easily available).
Besides local manufacturers which may carry them (and not list them on their website) … local foam shops are sometimes a good source. SLAB carries them (as you mentioned) and so does Foam Online. Electropedic also uses 1.1" layers in their mattress and you may be able to buy a layer from them.
Shawn has mentioned to me that they are overhauling their site and that some of the information and pictures are out of date but that is an ongoing project with almost all websites (including mine which always has more that I want to do than what I’ve done) as materials, information, and products change.
When you are working outside the basic design of a mattress manufacturer … it can become rather difficult to source the best combination of a reliable supplier and the material and thickness that you want. There’s quite a difference between mattress manufacturers and foam suppliers and while each has their own strengths … most mattress manufacturers will focus on the materials and layer thicknesses that are part of their designs because their primary goal of course is to sell mattresses rather than mattress materials.
So I would certainly call any manufacturer (including those you’ve listed) or foam shop that looks promising or to just go with a foam supplier that charges a little more but can save you a lot of time and research.
Let us know what you come up with because there are always others that will choose to go down the path of designing and building their own mattress to finer detail than “average” and it’s always an ongoing challenge to find the best suppliers of the raw foam and materials to do so.
. So with my hopes dashed on the phone of finally ordering a bed I’m trying to find out if you know anyone who sells 1" or maybe 1.5", but I think 1" will be right, of 19 ild LI or radium blended talalay latex. I know sleep like a bear does, but there prices seem to be pretty high. I don’t know if foam sweet foam, arizona mattresses,