Tired of dreaming about mattresses

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
1

My wife and I are in the process of trying to find a new bed. We have decided that we would like to get an all latex mattress and put it on a slat or possibly a solid foundation.

My wife is 5’7", 130 lbs. and I am 6’2" and 205 lbs. We both still play sports and work outside and have occasional aches and pains. Nothing serious and we are in our lower 30’s. She is a 80% back with some stomach or side sleeping. I sleep on my left side with my left arm under my head, left leg straight and right leg spread out in front or vice versa on my right side. Maybe this is side sleeping with a slight turn to my stomach and then sometimes I sleep purely on my side or back. I can get hot too.

We currently have a 10 year old original tempur-pedic, that we would both like to see go. My sweat and its age have probably made it too soft and we would like to move to latex.

We are within 30 minutes of savy rest and have been there a couple times for a total of about 4 hrs. laying on mattresses. F/M/M dunlop, F/M/S dunlop, M/S/S dunlop, F/M/M dunlop w/ n2 talalay topper on (12" total latex), F/M dunlop w/ n4 talalay on top, F/M dunlop w/ n2 talalay on top, F dunlop w/ n4/n4 talalay, n5/n5/n4 talalay and a few of these with a wool topper put on at the end. All of these were 9" mattresses (3"/3"/3") except for the one we put an n2 3" topper in its own cover on. They are listed as base/middle/top. All the dunlop is from cocolatex certified organic and there spec sheet claims illd’s are between 22-30 for soft, 31-39 for medium, and 40 + for firm. All the talalay is LI and 100% natural and they only carry n2 (20-24) their soft, n4 (30-34) their medium, and n5 (35-40) their firm.

Here are our perceptions: 3" of n2 talalay always seemed to bother our lower backs while back sleeping. Some completely dunlop layers seemed okay. The hollow of our lower backs always felt unsupported. Then we tried F/M dunlop w/ n4 on top and it felt good. My wife liked it the most on the first day. I did too. It was nice for back sleeping and it didn’t move around much. It felt right to me for being slightly flat similar to dunlop with some contouring from the talalay. When I switched to pure side sleeping it bothered my shoulder a little. I felt pressure.
We changed the bed to F/n4/n4. This felt nice for side sleeping. It seemed nice on both our backs while back sleeping at first but soon we could both feel slight pain in the hollows of our lower back. I also noticed it became more springy which I am not use too coming from a tempur-pedic, but perhaps would get use to it. The F/M/n4 seemed the most promising of the first visit. I thought perhaps if I could put a softer foam in the shoulder/head area of the middle layer this could work out well for both of us.

Well we went back a second time because I wasn’t satisfied with this configuration and wanted to try all talalay. I started on n5/n5/n4. It seemed fine at first but It takes me a bit to get in the groove of trying mattresses out. I switched to the F/M/n4 bed to see the difference and I immediately felt more relaxed, while my wife got onto the n5/n5/n4. After a while we switched and I got back on the all talalay mattress. It did not feel as though it moved around as much as the F/n4/n4 from the previous day, but I think it was too firm for me. I just felt like I couldn’t sink in. Once my wife got up from the F/M/n4 mattress that she liked a lot from the previous day she told me immediately she liked the all talalay n5/n5/n4 the most which surprised me. She definitely likes the springyness and the firmness.

I went over to the M/S/S dunlop and it felt great. I’m sure it wouldn’t be good for me and I think if I had stayed on it long enough it would have hurt my back, but for that moment it felt great. I’m assuming because it is the most like what I am use to.

They do not carry n3 for us to test out. We did not try n2 over n5/n5 and maybe we should, but we did not. We have been using this as a testing ground to learn what we like about latex. We are still up in the air about using blended talalay or 100% natural and maybe dunlop, but my wife definitely likes the talalay so I 'm sure that is the route we will take. We would like to stick with the same layers if that is possible. I’m not saying it is, but it would be nice. We don’t have sides in the bed.

I don’t know if we could be happy with some combination of 3" each of n3, n4, and n5. Or maybe we need or I need thinner layers of something else. I have not mentioned this, but we lean more towards getting a bed from sleepez or arizona premium mattress co or possibly SLAB. Savy rest costs a lot of money when we could get almost the exact same mattress from sleepez or a 6-3-2 or 6-2-2 or 6-2 or 6-3 mattress from mattresses.net in some configuration. Maybe 6" of 36 ild talalay with 3" of 28 ild on top of it or add a 2" 22 ild in to the mix. I don’t think they have a 32 ild topper, but not sure. Or a combination of components from these companies.

I don’t know what to do now and I’m hoping we can get some help putting this information out there. My dreams at night are now filled with layering mattresses because I have spent so much time researching and contemplating over them. Hopefully we can figure this out.

Thanks a lot.

PS. In addition to all this it seems as though it might be better to just have a thin mattress cover instead of a thicker wool quilted mattress cover. My thoughts are if we want wool, which would be good for my heat, it might be better in a topper that can be fluffed up and replaced easier, but I don’t know.

2

Hi Fluffhead,

Wow … that’s a lot of layer combinations and I’m not surprised that you’re dreaming about latex layers :). I’m impressed too at how well you’ve kept the different layers separate in your mind and can provide such good feedback. I know how easy it is for that much testing to blur together. So lets see if I can help untangle some of this.

First of all … it seems clear that you both prefer firmer comfort layers. This is not uncommon at all for people that are younger or more athletic with muscles that are more toned. There is also the challenge of your weight differential because with your greater weight … your perception of soft will be different from your wife … even though you both prefer an ILD on the firm side. With women who are lighter … there is often a clear preference either towards softer than normal comfort layers because they need to “sink in” more to get the equivalent cradle of someone who is heavier or on the other side they sometimes prefer firmer latex because there is not enough weight to cause pressure issues and they don’t need as deep a cradle. It seems like your wife is in the second category which is good because it puts your preferences closer together.

Because layer thickness can make just as much of a difference as layer firmness … especially in the comfort layers … the “missing link” in your testing is the effect of a 2" comfort layer which may make a difference in getting to your perfect layering. A 2" comfort layer that “borrows” from a little softer layer below it can often work well for those who sleep in multiple positions.

DAY 1

I would rule out n2 in a 3" layer for the very reason you mention. It is a combination of too thick and too soft for the best alignment on the back for many people. It may be fine in a 2" layer but with 3" it would allow the pelvic area to sink in too deeply.

The less “moving around” would be typical of Dunlop which is not as “springy”. It almost seems that this would be very close if you were able to try n3 on top (25 - 29) which would be more “in the range” of the ILD of latex that would work well. n4 would typically be too firm for side sleeping for most people. One lower with the support of the Dunlop would likely have been a better compromise here.

The middle layer of n4 (30-34) would have been softer than the M Dunlop and so would have “helped” the comfort layer just a bit more on your side … probably putting you within your pressure relief range. The problem though is that because it is softer as well as having a lower sag factor (dunlop gets firmer faster than talalay) … it would also allow your heavier parts to sink in a little more on your back which you felt.

So from your first day testing I would agree with you that the F/M bottom layers would be your best choice. The n3 would probably have been a better choice in the comfort layer but as you mentioned they didn’t have it.

DAY 2

The feeling of “immediately being more relaxed” confirms that the F/M Dunlop layers are more supportive for you even than the n5/n5 which would make sense. The M middle layer would add more softness to the comfort layer but it would also offer better suppport (would get firmer faster) than the n5 which is likely the reason you felt more relaxed as your muscles were able to “let go”. This confirms Day 1 for you at least as far as you could test without the n3.

This is an interesting comment and I would assume you are talking about your side here which would confirm that n4 as a comfort layer is a little too firm. On the previous day on your back this same layering seemed to be too soft (not as supportive as the F/M underneath so this layering is both too firm for pressure relief and too soft for support if I’m making the correct assumptions about the sleeping position that your comments come from). Again this seems to confirm that F/M/n3 may work well for you. The feeling that it didn’t move around as much would be because the top two layers this time were n5/n5 and the middle layer is firmer than F/n4 and the closer to the top of a mattress a layer is the more it will affect how it feels.

Because your wife is lighter … she would not be as deep into the middle layer so it would compress less with her than with you. This means that for her, the n5 may be firmer than the M but for you because you are sinking down more … the M may act firmer for you (again gets firmer faster than Talalay with deeper compression). The “springier” feeling is a preference and there are many people who prefer the more lively feel of Talalay in the support layers but since you are more used to the more “dead” feeling of memory foam over polyfoam … it may just be a matter of what you have become used to. In terms of more or less lively or springy there is really no right or wrong.

This also makes sense because the S would be in the mid 20’s which would be more in the range of the best pressure relief for you (with the n4 being on the firm side). This would be closest to an n3 comfort layer. I agree with you though that the middle layer of S and then M would likely be on the soft side for support for you … although Dunlop would do much better in this layering than Talalay. It also seems clear that again you prefer the less lively feeling of Dunlop over Talalay.

It seems that F/M/S may be a good layering for you to try. It would have a similar comfort layer to the last version you tried but with better support. It would also be similar to the F/M/n4 but possibly with better pressure relief and similar support. Did you try this combination of all Dunlop without the n2 on top (I didn’t see comments about this even though it seems like you may have tried it?)

Given your weight … there is probably little reason to go with 12" of latex. It would make the mattress softer overall and you would sink down more than 9". It would typically be a better choice for those that were heavier than both of you are.

I think that the n2 is too thick and soft for your sleeping position combination with a 3" layer so I wouldn’t think this would be an improvement over what you tried … or at least over the potential of n3. It may be worth a try just to confirm some of the other feedback and sometimes various layering can surprise although I doubt this would be one of those times.

The one layering I would be curious about your feedback would be the F/M/S Dunlop or similar (M/M/S for example or even F/S/S).

The blended Talalay may be a good option for you. It isn’t quite as springy as natural although it is more so than the Dunlop and it also comes in firmer versions which could be very helpful. It seems to me that it could supply the firmer support that you need along with the “springiness” that your wife prefers.

For example in blended … 28 over 36 over 40 may work well (similar to n3 on top but the 36 and 40 would be “about” the same as the n5/n5 (slightly softer in the middle and slightly firmer underneath so that the middle would provide a “smoother” transition … or 28 over 40 over 44 which would still give you similar pressure relief on top with firmer support underneath (closer in support to the M/F layering in Dunlop).

So overall I’d be interested in your feedback on the S/M/F Dunlop and beyond that (after a day or so of “rest” to let your mind relax) it may be worth seeing if there is a way to test some blended Talalay or thinner comfort layers. If you let me know the city you live in I’d be happy to check if I know about any other testing options near you (if there aren’t any listed in the forum yet).

That’s some pretty amazing testing. It was a bit of a mind bender just to analyze it so I can imagine how it felt to actually experience it :slight_smile:

Phoenix

3

Phoenix,

Thanks so much. We appreciate it. We live right outside of Charlottesville VA. I did find a sleepy’s perhaps that might be up in Culpeper, VA which should be about 30 miles away. Anything closer or if there are other stores would be a great help.

We did try the F/M/S and had a similar impression. That is actually what my wife started out on. I went to it near the end. I am not 100% sure, but I am pretty sure that I am not confusing it with the F/M/M that I started on. To me I felt as though it was not adequate in pressure relieving. I still felt a hollow feeling in my lower back or a slight aching there after a while. I don’t know if my mid section sunk in to much, I don’t think it did. I think it felt as though nothing was touching my lower back and I believe it was the same for my wife. I think you just wanted to know to have more information, but I do know I still preferred the F/M/n4 over it. I liked how at least one layer of talalay felt. That really did feel nice for back sleeping. I’m not sure if I even turned sideways on the F/M/S since it did not feel great on the back. I do think it was nicer than the F/M/M as that again was a little stiff and it did not contour like I would like.

On the n5/n5/n4 the position I was speaking about was actually on my back. I couldn’t get over how it felt. It was almost like the back of my legs were slightly numb, not asleep though, and my muscles couldn’t relax. It did not contour for me and i felt as though my midsection was being lifted up or higher than my shoulders. I do need to be careful in my description of my feelings because I am use to a bed where my mid section sinks in more. I should have tried the soft just for comparison purposes. I told my wife before we went to bed that I think the reason she liked it so much was because her body is not heavy enough to go through the n4 layer where as the n5 either stiffened up the n4 under my weight or I went through it and the n5 was too stiff underneath but I already know the two layers of n4 is not firm enough from when we tried the F/n4/n4. I really wish they carried an n3 layer. That would really narrow things down.

I think I would be okay with the springiness of all talalay if I could find a layering that felt right. I have trouble imagining the effect an n3 layer would have over the n5/n5 or if n3 would be firm enough for my wife in a 3" layer. M/M/S would have been another good combo for us to have tried out. Maybe that would have given the top soft just a little more contouring ability and that would have been enough.

I hope we can get this figured out.

Thanks again.

4

Hi Fluffhead,

This highlights the difference between Talalay and Dunlop. The Dunlop would be in the range of mid 20’s ILD (possibly higher depending on which side was up and how firm that particular layer was) while the N4 would be in the range of 30-34 ILD. Even though the Dunlop has a lower ILD which would normally be more pressure relieving … because it has a higher sag factor … it didn’t seem to form as deep a cradle for you (less pressure relieving and didn’t fill in the gaps as well). The fact that the n4 and the soft Dunlop are both a little on the firm side seems to indicate that n3 would be closer to your range in a 3" comfort layer. Of course F/M/M would be even worse.

OK … that makes more sense. I just read my last comments as well where I said “on the previous day on your back this layering seemed too soft” but you hadn’t tried this layering or even the same top 2 layers the previous day (it was the F/n4/n4 and the F/M/n4) … so my comments relating to this part weren’t valid. To correct …

On Day 1 you tried the F/n4/n4 which was “nice” for side sleeping but seemed too soft for alignment on your back. The F/M/n4 was too firm on your side but good for the back. This would indicate that the n4 needed “help” because it is on the firm side for side sleeping and that the 30-34 talalay helped it more on your side for pressure relief but was too soft for your back alignment while the M Dunlop helped it less on your side for pressure relief but was good for back sleeping alignment. This is the classic conflict between combination sleeping. What works for one position is either too soft or firm in one layer or another for a different position.

On the next day you tried the n5/n5/n4 which was fine at first but I don’t know which position it was initially fine for (side or back) and you quickly switched mattresses so I’ll pass this by because you were “immediately relaxed” when you went to the F/M/n4.

When you went back to the all talalay n5/n5/n4 the lack of moving around compared to the F/n4/n4 from the previous day would be for the reasons I mentioned before (top 2 layers were firmer overall). Because the top 2 layers were firmer overall … this would also have stopped you from sinking in as much and filling in the gaps as well as the softer n4 middle layer. Because the n4 on the top is already on the edge of too firm … making the layer underneath it firmer as well would likely account for the numbing effect because what was already on the edge would be over the edge with a firmer n5 middle layer. The feeling that your midsection was higher than your shoulders would be unlikely but it probably was much higher than you were used to with the firmer n5 underneath. All in all … it seems that the n5 middle in combination with a the n4 top (which is on the edge of being too firm anyway) is just too much “firmness” both for pressure relief and for filling in the gaps in your profile. It doesn’t form a deep enough cradle.

So up to this point the preference is the F/M/n4 even though the pressure relief on the shoulders isn’t as good as it should be.

This is likely very accurate. For her weight … the n4 would be an unusually firm preference for a comfort layer and it’s doubtful that she would even “go through” 3" of softer latex much less the n4. You on the other hand being larger and heavier could go through it and feel the underlying firmer layer more than her.

It was better on your side but not firm enough on your back which refers back to my previous comment. The F/M was firm enough on your back though. In theory … you would do better with a softer top 3" for better pressure relief and then firmer underneath either n5 or the same M Dunlop for better alignment. With the softer on top you could probably get away with firmer under or at least the same. This would depend a lot on the depth of what I call your “critical zone” which is the effective thickness of the comfort/pressure relieving zone you need to fill in the gaps and relieve pressure. I suspect that even with the firmer n4 comfort layer it is still over 3". How deeply you sink in to the layer below would determine which of the middle layers (n5 or M) would be best for you with an n3 layer (or equivalent).

I think the n3 (or the equivalent in blended) would work better for both of you. I also think it would allow for either the same firmness or possibly even more firmness underneath. This could give both better pressure relief on your side and better support on your back.

The top 2 layers are where most of the cradling comes from so changing the bottom layer wouldn’t change the cradle and the pressure relief much from the F/M/S. The support would be less though. Pressure relief comes from sinking “in” to the top layers of the mattress. Alignment and support is determined by how far your heavier parts sink “down” into the mattress. Changing the bottom layer would change support more than changing the cradle and pressure relief.

Post #3 in this thread has some options in Charlottesville and Layers would be a very good place to visit and can customize each mattress. They are a factory direct outlet that is knowledgeable and helpful and have choices that are different from what you’ve tried. It may also be worth trying the OMI Lago which is I believe 3.5" of n3 over 6" of n5.

Phoenix

5

Phoenix,

I spoke with Layers. They have one all latex bed and it has a 36 ild dunlop core with 4" of 18 ild over it with 1" of 12 ild on top. It must have been LI because it had celsium on top.

Atlantic Futon carries natura, but the lady did not know what was inside of it. She is going to try to figure it out for me.

The Artful Lodger carries one natura and icomfort maybe.

The original matress has 2. One is a 6" core of ild 32 talatech and the other is a 6" core of ild 32 with 2 layers of convoluted latex on top that he did not know.

Sleepy’s has stopped carrying Latex bliss and Dr. Breus is on the way out and it had a lot of poly in it.

I can’t find the omi lago mattress or any omi mattress for that matter anywhere in a store near me and that one seems perfect to try out. Do you know if anyone carries it around my area.

It seems that most people I call don’t know much about what they are selling when it comes to latex. But some are willing to find out which is nice.

I would like to try the omi if I could.

6

Hi Fluffhead,

Layers has 2 different firmness versions of their all foam mattresses and 4 versions of their innerspring mattresses and both of them are on the floor in Charlottesville (I confirmed this with a call). It would be well worth testing both the L series and the L series plus because this would provide valuable information about the firmness levels of the comfort layers and the core that was suitable for you. Their specs are similar to what you listed but the Talalay layer is 3" rather than 4" and this has the Celsion 1" layer over it for a total of 4" of Talalay. He is confirming the ILD of the layering for each version of both mattresses but this may not happen till Monday.

Natura has the general layering of their mattresses on their website but they generally don’t disclose the ILD of the layers so while they can provide a good general guideline … they don’t make a “perfect” prototype in terms of knowing the exact details of the layers.

I don’t know about the Artful Lodger but I wouldn’t spend a lot of time there if they only have one model worth testing.

I have the specs for the Original Mattress latex mattresses but they are both on the softer side in both the comfort layers and the support core. They are also set up on active bases instead of rigid foundations so that would also change the feeling of the mattress significantly. If I went there I would ask them to put the mattress on a rigid base for testing.

Sleepy’s did stop carrying Pure Latex Bliss as you mentioned but if you email Pure Latex Bliss they will give you a list of all the local outlets that carry them. My guess is that Sleepys stopped carrying them because they were better value than most of their other mattresses and they would probably have complaints from other manufacturers who sold lower quality mattresses at higher prices (such as the Dr Breus). The Dr Breus is not a latex mattress and even the higher end models only have less than half latex (and the lower end much less). They are very poor value. IBC who made them are now bankrupt but that particular line will likely be picked up by another manufacturer. It’s a great example of a mattress sold by the endorsement of a well known person who seems to know little about mattresses or mattress value … even if he does know something about sleep.

The OMI is available at http://www.hendersonsfurniture.com/. There are also a few other latex options in the list of retail outlets at the end of the “Charlottesville” post but I would make sure with a phone call that any particular outlet carries an all latex mattress first because while the manufacturer they carry may make one … each retail outlet may not carry it.

In general … most stores don’t know much about latex or even the many other materials that are in a mattress. It’s usually better sleep shops and local manufacturers who are much more knowledgeable about their mattresses and actually want people to know about them. There is really no way to make meaningful value comparisons between mattresses without knowing the specific layers of each mattress … which of course is exactly why most outlets don’t readily supply this information.

The Lago is a convoluted 3.5" layer of n3 so the convoluting would result in a softer top portion of the layer. It also has a thick wool quilting so this will act to firm up the feel of the latex so that would need to be taken into account as well.

Hope this helps … and I would definitely take a trip to layers and try the softer and firmer versions of their L series and L series plus. While they may not be what you end up purchasing … they would be valuable in terms of testing if nothing else. They can also do side to side splits (each side has a different firmness to fit the preferences of two people).

Hope this helps.

Phoenix

7

Phoenix,

I made it to layers, but only for about 45 minutes. I laid on the L series and L series plus, both for a while. They are split into medium plush/ medium firm for each. I only had these to compare to each other and was a little surprised on how they felt.

The L series plus is made up of 1" celsium, 3" talalay, 2" HR dunlop, and a 6" dunlop base in that order. The L series plus firmer side didn’t feel as though it let me settle into it on my back. I realized this when I switched to the plusher side. The plusher side contoured well and though it was extremely soft, I felt I went through it and actually felt somewhat supported by the firmer dunlop below while on my back. I felt more support from the plush side than I did the F/M/n2 from savy which surprised me. Even though it was much softer. I did sink into the plush side a ways and I’m not sure I would like that in the long run or the short. It was harder to turn over than my tempur-pedic and it was soft at the edges. I’m not sure I would say I liked the plush more than the firmer side, but I did settle into it better. I did not feel pressure on my side while on the plush. The firmer side was decent for side sleeping, but all around including back sleeping it didn’t feel perfect and I could tell. Again maybe it is because of what I am use to though.

The L series is made up of 3" talalay over 2" HR dunlop, and 5" of poly for the base. The plush side was just too drastic of a change from the soft top to the support layer in the middle and I didn’t like that. The firmer side felt nice. I could have liked it being a little more springy actually, but the top 3" talalay felt good and contoured well while I was on my back. I also felt like it was decent for side sleeping.

I have called to find out the ild’s but they do not know yet. I hope they will send them to you. It is hard to compare mattresses when the previous ones I tried were not side by side and were from a week ago.

8

Hi Fluffhead,

I still haven’t received the ILD’s from Layers and I assume you haven’t either. I’ve been busy today doing some site upgrades and dealing with a spam attack earlier today so I didn’t get a chance to call them. I’ll try again tomorrow. If you get the information before I do it would be great if you can post it here.

Just to let you know that I haven’t forgotten.

Phoenix

9

Phoenix,
I haven’t had any luck. I called again today. The lady said she could get them. She took down my number, but I haven’t heard back. I know she was just going to email the guy I talked to earlier this week. He was off today. Last time I spoke to him he mentioned that someone had called wanting the same info. Thanks a lot for your help.

10

Hi Fluffhead,

I called again today and Tracy who is the manager of the store and was the one who was going to send me (and you I believe) the information is off till next wednesday. I talked with Rhonda the assistant manager and told her the information we were looking for and she said she would pass the request on to Carolina who is the owners daughter and is the one I talked with originally in October and who was so helpful.

I will post here as soon as I hear back.

Phoenix

11

I’m getting a lot of really valuable info from this posting, thanks for the input. I’m a similar weight and height as -Mr.- Fluffhead and I’m gleaning info from his experiences. From it, I’m considering a F/M/N4 starting point from EZSleep. …But I’m also wondering what he thinks about the Talalay “blend” on the top layer?

I live on Long Island and I can find any dealers that have a good selection of “all” latex mattresses. Sleepys’ discontinued them, and the few I have tried have a lot of foam in the overall make-up, such as Comfort Solutions Natural Response.

12

Hi Petschauer,

The list of outlets in post #7 here should help you find some outlets that carry latex mattresses either in the comfort layers or the support cores or both. There are a few other NY lists as well but this one is a bit more narrowed down.

This should also give you a chance to test various latex ILD’s in the comfort layer to confirm that n4 (@ 30 - 34 ILD) is suitable for what you need and prefer since it’s firmer than most would choose.

I would include mattresses that have latex over other support cores (such as innersprings or high quality polyfoam) because this will also give you valuable information about how latex feels and performs in the comfort layers as long as there is no more than an inch of polyfoam over the latex.

Hopefully this will give you some latex to test to help you get a general sense of the type of firmness and layering that works best for you.

13

Petschauer,

Glad this is helping you. I will write more when either Phoenix or I figure out what the mattresses I was laying on at Layers were made up of. I did like the F/M/n4 for back sleeping. I would be quite interested in trying out a F/M/n3. I think it would be good if you can find some mattresses to try out; you might be completely different. Talalay has a different feel than dunlop. It feels softer than dunlop at the same ild. I’m assuming because it is less dense and has more air and sense its substance is more evenly distributed. Talalay has a springy feel while dunlop feels a little flatter, but stable.

I don’t know what to tell you right now on the blended talalay. I have laid on it, but I don’t know their firmness yet to compare it to the n2 and n4 that I have laid on. Sleepez could configure your mattress in all talalay blended or all natural, all dunlop, or a mix as I’m sure you know. But, there is a big difference between the feel of the two processed latex.

I think the F/M/n4 was a nice setup. The firm on the bottom went well with the medium dunlop in the middle for my weight. The n4 proved too firm when used in conjunction with the n5/n5/n4, but on top of the medium dunlop it was soft (contoured) enough to my back. The medium dunlop had enough give on its top side and then firmed up more towards its bottom side nearer the firm layer. I felt the n4 with the medium dunlop under it was good for back sleeping and felt quite supportive while also contouring well for the short hour or so I was on that particular mattress. If you are a back sleeper and desire a little less springiness then this might be a good set up for you. I do like at least the top layer of the bed to be talalay from my experience. I din’t feel the F/M/n4 was too firm for me until I turned to my side. I felt pressure in my shoulder. I did try a much softer blended talalay over dunlop at Layers that I felt contoured quite well, but surprisingly also felt supportive. Though I am not sure I could deal with how much I sunk in. It had 1" celsium talalay + 3" talalay and both I’m sure were really soft. Layering gets complicated and this is why it is highly recommended to try them out for yourself if you can.

Just for your information n4 from savy rest is labeled medium while the same n4 from sleepez is labeled firm.

Good Luck

14

That makes sense, EZ told me that he would recommend for me an “All Blended” Talalay in X-Firm, Firm, Med after I told him that I prefer a firm feeling mattress. I’m 6’5", 220 Lbs. and fall asleep on my side -with left arm under my head- and find my self on my stomach in the morning. So, when I read about your weight, height, similar sleep position AND found that you -so far- prefer the F/M/N4 I started to pay attention. The few all latex mattresses that Sleepy’s had -down stairs hidden in the back- felt way too soft & had a like hammock feeling that I’m just not used to coming from spring mattresses all my life, my last being a firm Chattam & wells Bernadette. I really like the way that Chattam felt for about 4 years or until all sides were flipped and turned several times. That’s why I’m thinking all Latex, because they don’t get depressions, but can I some how find the right combinations to get it to feel something like that Chattam, but doesn’t ware out.

You also mention how the Dunlop is more dense and less springy than the Talalay. I think I would prefer dense over springy because from what you describe Dunlop may have attributes more in line with what my dense and not too springy Chattam has. I want support but I don’t want to fall too deep into the mattress. This is another reason that the F/M/N4 sounds appealing to me and the EZ recommended “All Blended” Talalay in X-Firm, Firm, Med may not provide the denseness I seek. …BUT, I’d like to know what you think of the F/M/N4 “Blended Tallalay” if you ever try that combo out?

Thanks for the list of shops near NY Phoenix, I looked though them all and will try to check some out.

& Thanks again for all the great input here guys.

15

Petschauer,

I don’t think the F/M/n4 is going to be much different if any at all than a F/M/32 ild talatech or radium blended talalay latex from sleepez. The dunlop from savy rest is made by cocolatex and is probably quite similar to latex green’s organic line, that sleepez has. They are both certified organic. I think you are talking about the 100% all natural dunlop they carry which is different than the organic. I would imagine it feels quite similar. The trees are just not certified to be free of chemical fertilizers or pesticides, but both go through the same process to make the latex. The top 3" which you are talking about being blended is the talatech 30/70, natural/synthetic (sbr) or radium 40/60 blend. They do not come rated as n2, n3, n4, or n5 as the 100% all natural talalay comes from Latex International. They come in more specific ILD ranges. Normally 14, 19, 24, 28, 32, 36, 40, and 44. They can probably get you anything in between as well. The n2 is between 20-24.99, n3 25-29.99, n4 30-34.99, and n5 35-41.99. The naturals are probably close to n2 22 ild, n3 27 ild, n4 32 ild, and n5 38 ild. Maybe the latex manufacturer test each and every natural latex core so they know their basic range and separate them accordingly and places like sleepez can order them more specificly than the range that is given for them. I don’t know, but they could tell you.

All this being said, the only thing I have heard is that blended talalay might not be quite as springy as 100% all natural talalay. This makes sense because sbr is not as elastic as natural rubber serum. I still don’t think there would be much of a noticeable difference between 1 3" layer of blended vs 100% natural talalay latex over F/M Dunlop.

As far as the x-firm, firm, medium blended all talalay goes, I have not tried it. The F/n4/n4 was not supportive enough for me and that would be labeled as Firm dunlop, firm talalay, firm talalay. Also the n4 over F/M dunlop was not perfect for my side sleeping and you weigh more than I do. It was not soft enough to relieve pressure points on my shoulder, though it might be good for pure stomach sleeping.

16

Hi petschauer,

I think Fluffhead has covered most of the “all latex” comments really well :slight_smile:

It may be worthwhile though to test a hybrid mattress which has a firm innerspring with latex as the comfort layers. The reason for the suggestion is that you seem to have liked the Chattam & Wells which would have used a firm innerspring probably with softer foam (a common “firm” construction) … and perhaps even some latex … in the comfort layers. Of course your version could have also had firmer foam on top of a firm innerspring which would generally make it “ultra firm”.

Most people would consider a Talalay support core to be closer to the feel or springiness of an innerspring than Dunlop which has a less lively feeling than either. Several of the outlets in the list … and in particular Scott Jordon … would be a good place to test this as they carry all latex (Talalay over Dunlop) as well as innersprings with Talalay comfort layers and both the firmness of the support and the comfort layers can be adjusted.

Other than that … there’s little I can add to Fluffheads excellent post.

Phoenix

17

Phoenix,

My wife and I went to Layers yesterday to try the mattresses out again when I had more time and wasn’t rushed. We tried both the L series plus and the L series again. 1" celsium, 3" talalay, 2" hr dunlop, and 6" dunlop for the L series plus. 3" talalay, 2" hr dunlop, and 5" foam for the L series.

First the L series plus. The plush side again felt extremely soft and I sunk in a lot until I got to the support underneath. I did feel supported once I got there, but I do not like the feeling of sinking in so far. My wife did not like the plush side at all. The medium firm side is not firm. I realized that it was not supporting my waist area and this is the feeling I was having when I mentioned last time that I wasn’t settling in. I think I am heavy enough to compress the plush side even though it is 4" total of a comfort layer to get to the support layer and feel somewhat supported. I think my waist is sinking in more than my shoulders on the medium firm side and it leaves me feeling not fully supported. Neither one leaves pressure points for side sleeping.

The L series. The plush side was too soft and drastic a change in layers for my wife. I did not even lay on that side as that is the same way it felt to me last time. The medium firm side again felt the best to me out of the latex mattresses they carry and it was the same for my wife. I feel that it gives some pressure relief and then I come into the support layer and it feels more firm at this point and supportive. It was fine for side sleeping and supportive to our backs. This side still does not seem perfect though. I think I would like a little more springiness in the mattress. My wife still felt that the n5/n5/n4 from savy was much better than any of these. She definitely likes the springiness of all talalay. I think that the L series medium firm is a more dead feeling than the all dunlop base with talalay on top.

The lady working there was able to get the owner on the phone and get the ild’s for the layers.

L series: 3" talalay/ 2" hr dunlop/ 5" polyurethane

Medium firm: 24 ILD/ 25 ILD/ (25 ekg/200 newtons)
Medium Plush: 14 ILD/ 24 ILD/ (25 ekg/200 newtons)

L series plus: 1" celsium/ 3" talalay/ 2" hr dunlop/ 6" dunlop

Medium Firm: 17 ILD/ 24ILD/ 30 ILD/ 38 ILD
Medium Plush: 17 ILD/ 17 ILD/ 27 ILD/ 38 ILD

18

Hi Fluffhead,

I’m glad you finally got the ILD’s for the mattresses … I still hadn’t heard back.

L series plus commnts: 1" celsium/ 3" talalay/ 2" hr dunlop/ 6" dunlop
Medium Firm: 17 ILD/ 24ILD/ 30 ILD/ 38 ILD
Medium Plush: 17 ILD/ 17 ILD/ 27 ILD/ 38 ILD

The medium firm side would more typically be called soft. Latex International calls their 24 ILD soft and with an extra inch of even softer latex on top, it would definitely qualify as soft even though 24 ILD for most people is on the upper end of the “soft” range. The layers underneath this by most standards would be called medium and firm (Dunlop is more variable than a specific ILD). The plush version with 4" of 17 ILD would be too thick and soft for most people for best alignment and with your weight and your wife’s primary back sleeping this would almost certainly be the case. You are probably too far away from the support layers for best alignment and this certainly seems to confirm that a 4" comfort layer is too thick for good alignment.

L series comments: 3" talalay/ 2" hr dunlop/ 5" polyurethane
Medium firm: 24 ILD/ 25 ILD/ (25 ekg/200 newtons) the polyfoam on the bottom translates to 1.56 lb/ft3 density and 45 ILD
Medium Plush: 14 ILD/ 24 ILD/ (25 ekg/200 newtons)

The plush side is the softest talalay over soft Dunlop and as you mentioned would be too soft for most people even though the Dunlop middle layer would be firmer than Talalay in the same ILD.

The medium plush still has “soft” talalay on top with “soft” Dunlop under it. Because the comfort layer is thinner than the L plus, it is closer to the support layers and still in the range of the ILD that gives you good pressure relief. While 2" of soft Dunlop would be firmer than Talalay … it may still be a bit on the soft side with a 3" soft layer over it and along with the “dead” feeling may have been part of the reason it didn’t feel quite right. As you mentioned … the middle and lower layers here would not be nearly as lively as Talalay. This would likely be better with only 2" of 24 on top for both of you and with the “help” of the softer Dunlop under it would likely still be good for your pressure relief and your wife’s alignment. Of course the middle thinner layer of Dunlop and the firm polyfoam under it would be the reason it is less lively.

Adding in your Savvy Rest comments from before …

[quote]
I switched to the F/M/n4 bed to see the difference and I immediately felt more relaxed, while my wife got onto the n5/n5/n4. After a while we switched and I got back on the all talalay mattress. It did not feel as though it moved around as much as the F/n4/n4 from the previous day, but I think it was too firm for me. I just felt like I couldn’t sink in. Once my wife got up from the F/M/n4 mattress that she liked a lot from the previous day she told me immediately she liked the all talalay n5/n5/n4 the most which surprised me. She definitely likes the springyness and the firmness.
[/quote].

This all seems to point to a 3" comfort layer in the range of 24 ILD or perhaps slightly firmer (N3?) being better than the N4 for pressure relief.

This too seems to confirm too that firmer middle and lower layers work well or both of you with 3" top layers.

The unknown is still the effect of a 2" comfort layer and if I was to go with this for better alignment purposes than a 3" layer … I would slightly soften the middle layer compared to the N5 Talalay or M Dunlop that seemed best with a 3" comfort layer.

It seems like N5/N5/N3 in natural or the equivalent in blended talalay could be a good choice with a 3" comfort layer or N5/N4/N3 or the equivalent in blended could make a good choice with a 2" comfort layer (although this is extrapolation based on testing 3" comfort layers). Because springiness seems to be preferable, if you add any Dunlop to the mix it would likely be better to keep it to the bottom layer.

Phoenix

19

Phoenix,

Can you explain the difference you have experienced on these two configurations. n5/n5/n3 in 3"/3"/3" vs. n5/n4/n3 in 3"/3"/2". I know the n5/n5/n4 was too firm and even my wife felt it was quite firm when she laid on her side and felt pressure. I wonder how much of a difference the n3 will be. Was the n4 so firm because the n5 did not give much whereas the n4 over the medium dunlop was better as the M dunlop layer gave in more? It seems that 3" is a good thickness and I could imagine that n3 could be nice if it contoured me more while being firm enough to be slightly supportive also. If it was blended would it be better to go 28/36/40 or 28/38/38?

The n5/n4/n3 seems intriguing. I know the F/n4/n4 was not supportive enough but I could imagine 2" of 28 over the n5/n5/n4 bed could possibly make it perfect and that would be just about the same feeling as a n5/n4/n3 with the n3 at 2" thick. I’m only concerned because I think of the n4/n4 layer and we’re only talking about an inch less. I realize that the n4 has a slight give with some support as well and when you make 6" of it, it is contouring enough for us, but it is too thick of medium firm latex without enough support in it for us. My way of thinking is that 28 is soft enough for contouring and maybe with the n4 closer to us and to the n5 it will feel more supportive. However I am slightly concerned about having 5" of a comfort layer, and I use that loosely knowing that n4 should be supportive as well, before we get to the n5 layer. But I haven’t experienced it and maybe it will be perfect. We have only been on 4" of a true comfort layer and it was too soft all together before it was supported by a firmer layer.

If you or anyone else has experience with this setup or can offer some advise and guidance on this we would appreciate it. These seem to be two different ways of making a mattress. One changing a little between layers and one changing a little more drastically between layers, but not a huge difference.

Also when it comes to radium vs. latex international I do not know which one to go with. I think, just because of what I’ve read that we would like to stick with LI, but it seems that sometimes there can be a discrepancy of the quality a distributor gets in their latex and sometimes they might say one is better than the other because of the quality batch they got in.

If you think there is a better ild configuration that could be made from blended please let me know or what the like of a n5/n4/n3 is if I am incorrect.

20

Hi Fluffhead,

The ILD of a foam is measured at 25% compression so it is only accurate if you happen to only sink 25% into the layer. Because all foam is softer when you sink into it less and firmer when you sink into it more … this can be taken advantage of with changing layer thickness.

The N3 is about 27 ILD (it takes about 27 lbs on a 50 sq in round “foot” to sink in 1.5" into a 6" layer), it would only take roughly 18 lbs to sink in 1" into the same layer. This means that the first 3" of compression (the 2" layer and the first inch of the next layer) would average about 24 ILD. Because the middle layer is already compressed by an inch, the next say 1.5" of compression would take @ another 22 lbs (total of 40 lbs). This means that the foam below the first 3" is effectively 40 ILD. While this is not exactly accurate because layers compress in proportion simultaneously rather than just sequentially … a thinner top layer with slightly softer foam under it acts as if it’s a little thicker without giving up support.

So with a softer middle layer the 2" comfort layer would act as if it was a little thicker in terms of pressure relief (though still slightly less than a 3" layer on a firmer middle layer for most people) but would be more supportive than a 3" layer over firmer foam. It would also be more adaptable to the support needs of different positions as there would be less “soft stuff” above the firmer support layers in the “flatter” sleeping positions like back and stomach. In other words the 2" over a softer middle layer would be more towards a “progressive” construction while the 3" over a firmer middle layer would be a more towards a “differential” construction (the different ways of making a mattress you were suspecting)

The N3 averages about 27 ILD @25% while the N4 averages about 32 ILD @ 25% so there would be a noticeable improvement in pressure relief but not a major one. 24 ILD blended would be more pressure relieving yet.

The N4 is a firmer foam and is more typically used as a support layer rather than a comfort layer. It’s effective softness would be “modified” by the ILD of the layer below it. Because the N5 has an average ILD of 38 @25% and the M dunlop is probably softer @ 25% compression … the N4 will feel a little softer on the Dunlop as long as you don’t sink in too far (based on weight or sleeping position). Because Dunlop gets firmer faster than Talalay … at deeper compression (past 25%) the Dunlop would “overtake” the Talalay in term of how soft the layering was.

Although the 3" seems to work well … the 2" also has real potential but there are so many variables that it’s hard to know for sure how it would be for the “real life” sleeping of a particular individual. If you went with a 28 ILD @ 25% blended Talalay (which is typically considered firmer than normal for a comfort layer of an “average” individual … I would tend towards the more progressive layering (28/36/40) although it wouldn’t be a huge difference.

Adding 2" of 28 over the N5/N5/N4 would add a new variable of thickness and it would be softer on top (better pressure relief) but less supportive than N5/N5/N4 by itself. It would also have an extra layer of N5 to replace the mattress base (what was under the mattress) compared to the 2" version of the N5/N4/N3 which would be slightly less supportive and could increase the tendency of the pelvic area to sink in too far relative to the shoulders although it may be marginally softer.

So overall I would stick with a 8-9" mattress (more supportive) with upper 20’s on top in either a 2" or 3" version with the lower layers adjusted accordingly.

I wouldn’t worry in the slightest about whether the Talalay was LI or Radium as they are equivalent to each other.

The key in all of this is “enough”. Too much of either pressure relief or support leads to too little of the other and vice versa.

I hope this has helped narrow down some of the variables and “competing” layering schemes.

Phoenix