I purchased a medium Spindle after returning a soft Brooklyn Bedding BME that was too soft and hurting my lower back. The Spindle is definitely more supportive, but it’s just a little too firm. I’m side sleeper and my hips don’t quite sink in enough, so I have to keep twisting to sleep comfortably, but I’m waking up achy. I spoke with someone at Spindle and they recommended including another firm later on the bottom with a medium topper, so the final mattress would be M M F F (from top to bottom). They also mentioned a new memory foam mattress being sold by a sister company (Addable). I’m not entirely convinced the MMFF option will work and don’t want to start over with another mattress. Instead I’m considering buying a medium talalay topper to soften it up a little and get back that “plush” feel from the BME.
I was considering the Ultimate Dreams 3" Talalay Medium topper the Natural Comfort 2" plush 100% Natural Latex topper. I considered sleep like a bear since they use Latex International products, but the price was too high. Do you think either one of these options will work? Are there any other options I should consider?
If the only issue with a mattress is that it is too firm and there are no soft spots or sagging in the mattress then a good quality topper can certainly be an effective way to add some additional softness, “comfort” and pressure relief to your sleeping system but the only way to know whether a specific mattress/topper combination is a good “match” for you in terms of PPP is based on your own careful testing or personal experience on the combination. If you can’t test the combination in person then there is always some risk and uncertainty involved in adding a topper because the specifics of the mattress itself along with your own body type, sleeping position, preferences, sensitivities, physiology, and health conditions can all affect which specific topper would be a suitable choice on any specific mattress.
There is more information about choosing a topper in post #2 here and the topper guidelines it links to which along with a conversation with a reliable and knowledgeable supplier (that can provide you with good information about how their toppers compare to each other or to other toppers they are familiar with that are available on the market) can help you use your sleeping experience as a reference point and guideline to help you choose the type, thickness, and firmness for a topper that has the least possible risk and the best chance for success. It also includes a link to a list of some of the better online sources for toppers I’m aware of and a link to the online suppliers that have good exchange/return policies as well (just in case the topper you choose doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for).
There are also some suggestions in post #2 here that may be helpful if your mattress is too firm as well.
I would also keep in mind that Spindle has a great deal of experience in helping their customers fine tune their mattress based on the “averages” of other people that may be similar to you and your conversation with them probably included more information about your body type, sleeping style, individual preferences and circumstances than you included in your post so I would give serious consideration to their suggestion as well.
No offense but I’m not sure what else to tell you. I don’t have any current medical conditions. I weigh ~128 pounds and like sleeping on my side without lower back pain… or losing the feeling in my arms (Casper & Ikea mattresses). You now know more than the person I spoke to Spindle. He, on the other hand, has sciatica, a petite wife, a standing desk, and this is the configuration they sleep on, it’s luxurious, and perhaps I should consider exercising more. :huh:
To reiterate - I purchased a medium spindle, which is configured as medium - medium - firm (top to bottom).
I was waking up with lower back pain and had to do some qi gong exercises to get through it.
To confirm whether the mattress was too soft or too firm, I pulled out a ruler and took rough measurements from hip to waist in 3 different conditions:
standing
the spindle reconfigured to be firmer (medium - firm - medium, as instructed in their blog: (Spindle Mattress)
the original configuration (medium - medium - firm)
My hip was up in the air and not sinking into the mattress in condition #2 (i.e., length increased). My hip sank more in the original medium configuration, condition #3 (i.e., the length was medium, pun intended, more than baseline less than #2). That tells me the mattress is too firm. Not great science but better than nothing.
And no I haven’t told the person at Spindle any of this - I didn’t have the opportunity. He seemed to be a hurry and did most of the talking. And that’s why his suggestion of adding another layer of firm makes no sense whatsoever to me. If 2 mediums and a firm are too firm then how can 2 Mediums and 2 Firms be softer?
There’s certainly nothing in your post that I would take any offense with
Unfortunately it’s not possible to “diagnose” mattress comfort issues on a forum with any certainty because you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unique unknowns, variables, and complexities involved including body type, sleeping positions, health conditions, and individual sensitivities and preferences that can affect how each person sleeps on a mattress in terms of “comfort”, firmness, and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your Personal preferences) or how they may affect any “symptoms” you are experiencing and a mattress that would be “perfect” for one person or even a larger group of people may be unsuitable for someone else to sleep on.
Having said that … there is more about the most common symptoms that people may experience when they sleep on a mattress and the most likely (although not the only) reasons for them in post #2 here.
There is also more about primary or “deep” support and secondary or “surface” support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the “roles” of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between “support” and “pressure relief” and “feel” that may also be helpful.
These posts are the “tools” that can help with the analysis, detective work, or trial and error that may be necessary to help you learn your body’s language and “translate” what your body is trying to tell you so you can make the types of changes that have the best chance of reducing or eliminating any “symptoms” you are experiencing.
Any changes in your “symptoms” when you sleep on a new configuration for a few days compared to your previous “symptoms” on previous configurations are generally a much more reliable indication of the type of layering changes or the “direction” of any firmness changes that would have the best chance of success and would be much more reliable than trying to assess the effect of the changes based on body measurements rather than your actual sleeping experience.
Knowing how and “how much” your lower back symptoms changed between combination #2 and #3 would be helpful.
Resolving mattress issues with a component mattress generally involves a process of differential diagnosis using probabilities and some trial and error in combination with assessing how your actual symptoms change and get “better or worse” with each layer combination you try along with a more detailed conversation with the retailer or manufacturer you purchased from to help identify the “direction” or types of firmness changes or which combination of layers would be likely to have the best chance of success based on your actual experience with each combination.
My “best” suggestion would be to have a more detailed conversation with Spindle that provides them with as much detail as possible so that they can use their knowledge and experience based on the “averages” of other customers that have had similar experiences to yours to provide you with some guidance and their “best guess” about the types of changes that would have the best chance of success.
There are several variables that can affect how soft or firm a mattress feels besides just the firmness of an individual layer or layer combination (see post #4 here) and adding a firm layer on the bottom can also result in a mattress that “feels” softer because of the effect of the additional thickness (there is more about the effect of thickness in post #14 here).
Adding a firm layer on the bottom would also result in using one of your layers as a topper and a layering combination that uses a layer as a topper can also feel softer than having the same layer inside the mattress cover because a separate topper can “act” a little more independently and “feel” a little softer compared to having the same layer inside the cover (see posts #3 and #4 here and the first page of posts in this topic).
While the most common cause of lower back pain is a mattress that in one way or another is too soft (either deeper layers that are too soft or upper layers that are too thick and/or soft) … it’s certainly possible that a soft layer that either replaced one of the medium layers in your mattress or that was added as a separate topper would provide additional secondary support and pressure relief that may also resolve the issues you are having but the only way to know for sure would be based on your actual sleeping experience.
I had a medium dunlop mattress for 4 years. It gave me hip pain when I slept on my side and caused some back pain. I am about the same weight as you. What I have learned since is that body shape makes a big difference. Because of the “spring” in latex, you get pushback, which equals support in the firmer ILDs, and those should be in your base layers. However, I have a small waist and am curvy, so the medium put too much pressure on my hips. As I have researched and tested beds at mattress stores (a good idea even if you don’t use the exact bed because you can find what suits you a bit). For me, it is a very soft thick pillowtop. I need more than the standard 3 inches to cradle my body properly and get rid of pressure points because when I lay on my side, there is larger than a 3 inch gap between my hips and waist. Of course, with a soft top layer, you do need to have a good firm base so that you do not sag.
I wish I had just bought a soft top layer for my old mattress instead of giving it away when I moved. You could see if the company makes a soft ILD top layer for your top layer in the dunlop or try a talalay top layer in a soft ILD. If you are like me, I would do 3 inches of this layer. For base layer and mid layer, you do not want to go too soft because you want support for alignment. You will have to experiment to see if you need 2 firms or a firm and a medium.
I would have never guessed that softer on top was better for me. Go to some mattress stores and try things out to see what gives you pressure and where your alignment is. Don’t limit yourself to just latex beds for this experiment as you are experimenting with finding generally what you personally like in a comfort layer. You may not buy the mattress with really cheap foam on top of springs, but it may help you find that you like a few inches of soft over a firm layer of foam, or, like me, that you like it soft for a good 5 inches. Then you can talk to the mattress company and be able to give more accurate input on what you prefer. Often, if you can point them to a general namebrand mattress, they can know how to adjust the layers to get the feel you like.
We just bought a spindle mattress. My husband and I are also both side sleepers but weigh more than you. We were able to visit the spindle factory in acton. We were leaning towards the medium bed but while there I mentioned I “missed” the pillow top feel. Kim shared that he slept on a firm mattress with a medium mattress topper and he set it up for us to try. We loved it. Because the topper is not compacted in the mattress cover it feels much softer and we really liked the organic cotton cover it comes with.
So the configuration spindle is suggesting MMFF is what we have and we love it. I can’t promise you it will give you what you need to solve your issues. I will say that the mattress topper in its soft cotton cover does feel more pillow like when it sits on top of the mattress just under a fitted sheet. We have no aches/ pain in our hips and shoulders. The latex layer cost us $150 and cover $50.
Because you only weigh 128lbs I don’t know if an option MMMF would be another Idea (medium topper on your medium mattress). I don’t know if it would give your back enough support. I will say Spindle was very helpful to so I would hope they can work with you on a solution.
Another comment - after getting our spindle mattress set up on our IKEA king frame I told my husband I felt it leaned in the middle. After some investigation we realized our IKEA center bar needed some additional support and once in place that fixed the issue as the latex is much heavier than our original IKEA innerspring. Not sure that is related to any of your issues but wanted to mention how important it is to have the mattress on a sturdy frame.
I actually ditched the Ikea Malm bed for a Crate and Barrel bed and also bought the Spindle foundation. I had 2x4s underneath the Malm for additional center support, but honestly didn’t trust it to hold a 120 pound bed. shudder.
A quick update. I spoke with Neal and decided to give the medium topper a try. I’ve been sleeping on MMFF now for 4 nights and so far it is a major improvement. I won’t make a final judgment until it’s been 30 days but if it stays this way I should be just fine.
More than a month has passed and the mattress is perfect. No back pain. No shoulder pain. The only problem I have is that I don’t want to get out of bed in the morning.
