tuft and needle - new top layer foam

Thatā€™s a shame, this seems shady to some extent. I hate to form ideas based on speculation but Phoenix is right - itā€™s either poly, latex (sbr included) or viscous (memory). Iā€™d be curious to see a sample and find out what it really is. Also I have to say that while I thought they began with a good business model their current comparisons are pretty biased.

ā€œUniversal comfortā€ - that supposedly memory foam and latex donā€™t offer. Since comfort is subjective, so is this statement and shouldnā€™t even appear on a ā€˜factā€™ check list. Universal comfort - to who? How do they quantify that?

ā€œFair priceā€ - again subjective. Compared to what? Even if you took them at their word that they have developed magic mystery foam, if theyā€™re the only ones with this material then whatā€™s ā€œfairā€ mean? Prices for memory foam or latex can be fair for the material also. So if plain iron is $.15/oz and gold is $400/oz does that mean gold is unfairly priced? Makes little sense.

ā€œNo gimmick featuresā€ - typically the warning sign that thereā€™s a gimmick involved. How is latex a gimmick? Or memory foam? Memory foam does what they say it does, has slow recovery - and latex is either man made, natural or a mixture. If rubber bands exist, how can they be a gimmick? They serve a purpose (unless they werenā€™t stretchy and didnā€™t hold a rolled up newspaper as advertised).

ā€œExtended durability and lifespanā€ - high quality memory foam and latex are both durable materials, latex probably more so. Iā€™ve seen couches from the 60ā€™s last into the 2000ā€™s and still had ā€œcushionā€ to them and held their shape - using standard poly foam. 40 years isnā€™t durable?

This comparison list is pure bunk if you ask me and shoots any credibility they once had right in the foot. It serves no purpose. No more informative or relevant than me posting a picture on the web saying ā€œchocolate is 84% more yummy than vanillaā€ with no proof to back up a statement and figures I pulled out of thin air. It truly is disappointing. More so than raising prices right before the holidays when most everyone else is lowering theirs. I suppose itā€™s a different approach of nothing else.

Hello all,

I talked with Tuft & Needle today and confirmed that the latest iteration of their mattress uses two layers vs three in their previous design. The top layer which replaces the previous two top layers they were using is a much higher density (about 3 lbs) and higher performance polyfoam similar to what I was describing in post #2 earlier in this topic. The foam itself is being formulated specifically for their criteria in consultation with their foam pourer/manufacturer.

It is a more point elastic and conforming material that is more pressure relieving and softer than their previous mattress and with only a single layer (and eliminating the glue between the previous top two layers) the transition and response curve between layers would be ā€œsmootherā€ as well. Because of the higher density and higher compression modulus of the foam (compression modulus is the rate that a material becomes firmer as you compress it more deeply) it is also more supportive than their previous version. It also has a higher airflow and is more breathable and would be more temperature regulating than their previous comfort layers as well. It would make sense that with the properties of this higher quality and higher performance polyfoam that it would be a better match in terms of PPP for a higher percentage of people than their previous mattress design.

Post #234 here also has some additional information about their new comfort layer and the fire barrier they are using as well.

They also changed the density of the deeper layers to a polyfoam support core that is about 1.8 lbs.

Phoenix

Iā€™m just seeing the post below about confirmation and further information of the new foam design by Tuft and Needle. Thanks for digging that up!

I was on the tipping point, but with my budget and the wealth of information here, I decided to give DreamFoamā€™s 12-in-1 model a crack.

I initially wanted to stay under $500 (for a queen) but was considering flexibility if warranted. When I found the 12-in-1, it seemed to hit all the check marks, plus they were running a 10% off Black Friday sale. At $359, shipped, plus the free pillow, I could not pass it up!

The mattress arrived today. Itā€™s all set up and waiting for night to arrive.

My wife and I will give it a go the next couple weeks and Iā€™ll check back in with our experience.

Thanks for your work here Phoenix.

Hi benzinoamin,

Thanks for letting us know what you ended up deciding and congratulations on your new mattress :slight_smile:

I think you made a great choice and Iā€™m looking forward to your feedback when youā€™ve had the chance to sleep on it for a bit.

Phoenix

I currently have a tuft and needle 10 mattress purchased back in may of last year, Iā€™ve decided to purchase another one since we are happy with the firmness and the easy buying process. Iā€™ll do a comparison between the old and the new model in a few weeks.

Hi rmz100987,

When you canā€™t test a mattress in person then a more detailed conversation with a knowledgeable and experienced online retailer/manufacturer will be your best source of guidance because they will know more about their own mattresses than anyone else (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here).

The Ten includes a 3" layer of their new specialty polyfoam material while the Five includes a 2" layer. Both have a 1.8 lb polyfoam support core underneath. Based on conversations with them they would have a very similar firmness and ā€œfeelā€ for most people although for some people that are in higher weight ranges a thinner mattress may feel firmer than a thicker mattress.

The only way to really know how any mattress will feel for you (regardless of how it feels for anyone else) will be based on your own personal testing or sleeping experience but they have a great return policy so if your conversation with them gives you enough confidence that the mattress would be a suitable choice for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) then there is little risk in trying it because if it doesnā€™t work out as well as you hoped for then they have a great refund policy and you would be free to choose a different mattress.

Phoenix

Iā€™m also looking forward to another tuft needle write up

Hi ,

Iā€™m looking forward to your comparison as well ā€¦ and congratulations on another new mattress :slight_smile:

Phoenix

After lots of research I think I am going to purchase a T&N tomorrow. Iā€™m a little nervous that they have changed their foam layers and I have not seen any feedback on it yet. Also iā€™m not sure if the new 1.5lb density base layer is enough? I am a bigger guy at 6ā€™1 250. Because of their generous return policy I think I am just going to try it out for myself. If anyone has any info on the ā€œnewā€ model I would very much appreciate it! Thanksā€¦ awesome site!

Hi brochenzo,

Their base layer is 1.8 lb density (not 1.5 lb density) which is certainly suitable in terms of quality and durability for a mattress in this budget range.

There is also more information about their new design in posts #2 and #6 earlier in this same topic.

Most importantly ā€¦ congratulations on your new mattress :slight_smile:

Iā€™m looking forward to your comments and feedback when youā€™ve received it.

Phoenix

Brochenzo-

We received the newly designed TN almost 3 weeks ago now. I wrote an initial review in the 10" Tuft and Needle Diary post, message #227 here: https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/the-10-in-tuft-needle-diary

We are still happy with the mattress. I was worried it would be too firm for me, but I am sleeping better on it each night. It has softened just a tiny bit, but itā€™s still firm, but I have no pressure points on side sleeping.

One thing I will note, thinner layers on top seem to be the best to get the most benefit from the foam. It is not memory foam, but I had a mattress pad that was too thick on the top, and it significantly changed the feel of the mattress.

The mattress did have an odor the first week, most pronounced on day 3 and 4, but after 3 weeks, although still there, itā€™s not very noticeable.

I know all of us are different in preferences, but TN customer service is great, and the return policy is generous, and itā€™s worth giving the mattress a try if you like a firm mattress. It is different feeling than the innerspring mattresses Iā€™ve slept on before, and Iā€™m still getting used to the ā€œfloatingā€ feeling on this mattress, but Iā€™m sleeping very well so canā€™t complain.

TN honored my MU discount, and extended the return period to 60 days upon me asking (and telling them my MU membership name).

Be curious to see what you think of the mattress!

Thanks a lot for the info Sheep123! I ordered the mattress and, similar to everyone elseā€™s experience, the customer service has been excellent (also they did honor the discount and extended trial.) I will update once I have tested it.

Hi brochenzo,

No that youā€™ve actually pulled the trigger ā€¦ congratulations on your new mattress once again :slight_smile:

Iā€™m looking forward to your feedback when you receive it and have had the chance to sleep on it as well.

Phoenix

[quote=ā€œPhoenixā€ post=45781]

It is a more point elastic and conforming material that is more pressure relieving and softer than their previous mattress and with only a single layer (and eliminating the glue between the previous top two layers) the transition and response curve between layers would be ā€œsmootherā€ as well. Because of the higher density and higher compression modulus of the foam (compression modulus is the rate that a material becomes firmer as you compress it more deeply) it is also more supportive than their previous version.[/quote]

Would you mind explaining the nuance what it means for the mattress to become both softer and more supportive? These characteristics seems to be in conflict.

Hi ckimchi,

ā€œSupportā€ is often misunderstood and many people believe incorrectly that ā€œfirmer is betterā€ or ā€œmore supportiveā€ when the real goal of a ā€œsupportiveā€ mattress is to keep the spine in good alignment and this requires the type of contouring support that allows some parts of the body to sink in more and some parts of the body to sink in less and this will vary on an individual basis. There is more about primary or ā€œdeepā€ support and secondary or ā€œsurfaceā€ support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the ā€œrolesā€ of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between ā€œsupport/alignmentā€ and ā€œcomfort/pressure reliefā€ and ā€œfeelā€ and how they interact together.

Phoenix

[quote=ā€œsheep123ā€ post=47054]Brochenzo-

We received the newly designed TN almost 3 weeks ago now. I wrote an initial review in the 10" Tuft and Needle Diary post, message #227 here: https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/the-10-in-tuft-needle-diary

We are still happy with the mattress. I was worried it would be too firm for me, but I am sleeping better on it each night. It has softened just a tiny bit, but itā€™s still firm, but I have no pressure points on side sleeping.

One thing I will note, thinner layers on top seem to be the best to get the most benefit from the foam. It is not memory foam, but I had a mattress pad that was too thick on the top, and it significantly changed the feel of the mattress.

The mattress did have an odor the first week, most pronounced on day 3 and 4, but after 3 weeks, although still there, itā€™s not very noticeable.

I know all of us are different in preferences, but TN customer service is great, and the return policy is generous, and itā€™s worth giving the mattress a try if you like a firm mattress. It is different feeling than the innerspring mattresses Iā€™ve slept on before, and Iā€™m still getting used to the ā€œfloatingā€ feeling on this mattress, but Iā€™m sleeping very well so canā€™t complain.

TN honored my MU discount, and extended the return period to 60 days upon me asking (and telling them my MU membership name).

Be curious to see what you think of the mattress![/quote]

Hi Sheep123,

After almost a year of owning the T&N mattress, can you speak to how well you like it? Iā€™m about to pull the trigger on the Queen sized version.

Thanks !

Phoenix,

Thank you for the response!

So I went ahead and purchased a T&N Queen 10 inch mattress and have slept on it for 4 nights now. I know itā€™s still early but both my wife and I have not had the best experience thus far. We have the mattress set up on slats and are coming from a 5 inch Ikea foam mattress that we have slept reasonably on for the past couple of years.

Right from the get go, using the palm of my hand to compress both mattresses, itā€™s very apparent that T&Nā€™s is softer (maybe because itā€™s thicker.) My wife is pregnant and is thus side sleeper and the past 4 nights for her have been very difficult as she complains of hip soreness. As for myself, I am normally a stomach sleeper (half military crawl) but in the last 4 days I find myself tossing and turning because of the heat in this position and end up on my back and wake up with lower back soreness. We have even tried to crank up the AC to counter this but to no avail.

I really like what T&N stands for and really want to like their product. We will of course give the mattress a longer trial as part of it just might be getting used to a new mattress. However tonight I will switch back to our Ikea foam mattress and see if my wifeā€™s hip soreness goes away.

@Phoenix I was wondering if you could suggest some mattresses that offers more firmness than the T&N that I can start doing some research on them while we continue to test out the T&N. Part of me wonders if the T&N would work out just fine if they still made a 5in mattress.

Hi ckimchi,

Itā€™s certainly not surprising that the Tuft & Needle would be softer than a 5" Ikea foam mattress and the properties of the top layer of foam would be more contouring as well. For most people the Tuft & Needle would be more towards the firmer end of the firmness scale and there are probably more people who would find it too firm than too soft but of course this is always very subjective and individual to each person.

I would keep in mind that there will be a break in and adjustment period with any new mattress as well so your experience will also change over the course of the first few weeks as the mattress breaks in and your body gets used to a sleeping surface that is very different from what itā€™s used to (see post #3 here).

Most people donā€™t seem to have temperature issues on the Tuft & Needle but there are a few that have mentioned that they sleep warm. In your case itā€™s possible that it could be connected to sleeping on a softer mattress that you are sinking in more than you are used to which which would be more insulating than a firmer mattress. There are many other possible reasons as well and while itā€™s not always possible to to track down temperature regulation issues for any particular person on a specific mattress because there are so many variables involved (including your room temperature and humidity, your sheets and bedding and bedclothes, your mattress protector or any mattress pads you are using, and where you are in the ā€œoven to icebergā€ range) and some people can sleep warmer on mattresses that most people are generally fine with ā€¦ there is more about tracking down a potential cause or causes for temperature regulation issues (at least to the degree possible for a specific mattress) in post #2 here and the posts it links to that may be helpful.

There are also no ā€œstandardā€ definitions or consensus of opinions for firmness ratings and different manufacturers can rate their mattresses very differently than others so a mattress that one manufacturer rates as being a specific firmness could be rated very differently by another manufacturer. Different people can also have very different perceptions of firmness and softness compared to others as well and a mattress that feels firm for one person can feel like ā€œmediumā€ for someone else or even ā€œsoftā€ for someone else (or vice versa) depending on their body type, sleeping style, physiology, their frame of reference based on what they are used to, and their individual sensitivity and perceptions. There are also different types of firmness and softness that different people may be sensitive to that can affect how they ā€œrateā€ a mattress as well (see post #15 here) so different people can also have very different opinions on how two mattresses compare in terms of firmness and some people may rate one mattress as being firmer than another and someone else may rate them the other way around. This is all relative and very subjective and is as much an art as a science.

While the only way to know for certain how firm a mattress will feel for you is based on your own personal experience ā€¦ when you canā€™t test a mattress in person then the most reliable source of guidance is always a more detailed phone conversation with a knowledgeable and experienced retailer or manufacturer that has your best interests at heart and who can help ā€œtalk you throughā€ the specifics of their mattresses and the properties and ā€œfeelā€ of the materials they are using (fast or slow response, resilience, firmness etc) and the options they have available that may be the best ā€œmatchā€ for you based on the information you provide them, any local testing you have done or mattresses you have slept on and liked or other mattresses you are considering that they are familiar with, and the ā€œaveragesā€ of other customers that are similar to you. They will know more about ā€œmatchingā€ their specific mattress designs to different body types, sleeping positions, and preferences (or to other mattresses that they are familiar with) than anyone else.

Phoenix

Just wanted to say thanks for the great info here about the various foam technologies! It has been some great reading in anticipation of purchasing a new mattress!