tuft and needle - new top layer foam

[benzinojamin]

In a message to explain their increase in costs recently, Tuft and Needle mentions work done over the past year to create a new proprietary foam. Their message can be read here.
ADMIN NOTE:Removed 404 page link | Archived Footprint: Tuft & Needle: Exceptional Mattresses and Bedding at a Fair Price

On the Specs page, it’s listed as: “Triple-layer blended foam designed by and proprietary to Tuft & Needle.”

Based on your knowledge, is it really possible for this foam to accomplish what it says it does: make it more comfortable for more people?

Thanks.

[phoenix]

Hi benzinojamin,

First of all I should be clear that I don’t have any specific insights about what they are calling their “proprietary” foam so what follows is “educated speculation” (NOTE: see post #6 here later in this topic which has more information and confirms the materials they are now using).

The pricing message that you linked to says (or at least implies) that they have created a new foam type other than memory foam, polyfoam, or latex … and this is doubtful.

There have been many innovations in foam over the last few years including various types of gel memory foams and there have also been innovations in polyfoam that have produced versions of polyfoam that are a higher density (typically in the 2.5 - 5 lb range) and are formulated to have different and more desirable properties than more conventional polyfoam and can approximate some of the more desirable properties of latex or memory foam (depending on the specific formulation). With their higher densities they are all durable products as well.

Some of these properties include greater point elasticity that contour to the shape of the body very well (similar to latex or memory foam) and have different response times or levels of resilience that have a faster recovery than memory foam but often slower than latex or traditional polyfoam. They also aren’t typically temperature sensitive like traditional memory foam. Some of these more specialized types of polyfoam include products like Energex and Activus and Spring-tex and Avena and Futuratex and some of the Fom products along with others as well.
ADMIN NOTE:Removed 404 page link | Archived Footprint 1: pacurethanes.net/technology/energex/| Archived Footprint 2: fomfoam.com/neu.html

All of these are what I call “high performance polyfoams” and are more costly than conventional polyfoam so they would certainly justify a price increase but they are also not as costly as many more premium foam materials such as higher quality memory foam or latex.

While they may have a specific variation of one of these foams that was formulated or “fine tuned” for them in terms of it’s specific properties, response or firmness … they certainly don’t have a new type of foam technology and these are all higher density versions of polyfoam.

While specialty foams such as these (or latex or memory foam) that formulate more attractive properties into the foam would likely be suitable to a larger percentage of people than more conventional polyfoams … like all mattress designs, any “one size fits all” design will be the “best” match for a relatively small percentage of people, a “good” match for a larger percentage, and an “OK” match for a larger percentage yet. With a manufacturer like Tuft & Needle that has a good return policy though … then if it’s not a “good enough” match then there is no cost involved with returning it.

It will be interesting to see the feedback from some of the members that try it.

Phoenix

[benzinojamin]

Thanks so much for your detailed reply Phoenix.

I’m on the verge of pulling the trigger for one of their mattresses. However, I’ve just found this site tonight, so I think I take a few days and browse the discussions before making the decision.

If I do end up getting one, I’ll be sure to share my thoughts.

Cheers

[phoenix]

Hi benzinojamin,

I’m looking forward to finding out what you end up deciding

Phoenix

[brass]

That’s a shame, this seems shady to some extent. I hate to form ideas based on speculation but Phoenix is right - it’s either poly, latex (sbr included) or viscous (memory). I’d be curious to see a sample and find out what it really is. Also I have to say that while I thought they began with a good business model their current comparisons are pretty biased.

“Universal comfort” - that supposedly memory foam and latex don’t offer. Since comfort is subjective, so is this statement and shouldn’t even appear on a ‘fact’ check list. Universal comfort - to who? How do they quantify that?

“Fair price” - again subjective. Compared to what? Even if you took them at their word that they have developed magic mystery foam, if they’re the only ones with this material then what’s “fair” mean? Prices for memory foam or latex can be fair for the material also. So if plain iron is $.15/oz and gold is $400/oz does that mean gold is unfairly priced? Makes little sense.

“No gimmick features” - typically the warning sign that there’s a gimmick involved. How is latex a gimmick? Or memory foam? Memory foam does what they say it does, has slow recovery - and latex is either man made, natural or a mixture. If rubber bands exist, how can they be a gimmick? They serve a purpose (unless they weren’t stretchy and didn’t hold a rolled up newspaper as advertised).

“Extended durability and lifespan” - high quality memory foam and latex are both durable materials, latex probably more so. I’ve seen couches from the 60’s last into the 2000’s and still had “cushion” to them and held their shape - using standard poly foam. 40 years isn’t durable?

This comparison list is pure bunk if you ask me and shoots any credibility they once had right in the foot. It serves no purpose. No more informative or relevant than me posting a picture on the web saying “chocolate is 84% more yummy than vanilla” with no proof to back up a statement and figures I pulled out of thin air. It truly is disappointing. More so than raising prices right before the holidays when most everyone else is lowering theirs. I suppose it’s a different approach of nothing else.

[phoenix]

Hello all,

I talked with Tuft & Needle today and confirmed that the latest iteration of their mattress uses two layers vs three in their previous design. The top layer which replaces the previous two top layers they were using is a much higher density (about 3 lbs) and higher performance polyfoam similar to what I was describing in post #2 earlier in this topic. The foam itself is being formulated specifically for their criteria in consultation with their foam pourer/manufacturer.

It is a more point elastic and conforming material that is more pressure relieving and softer than their previous mattress and with only a single layer (and eliminating the glue between the previous top two layers) the transition and response curve between layers would be “smoother” as well. Because of the higher density and higher compression modulus of the foam (compression modulus is the rate that a material becomes firmer as you compress it more deeply) it is also more supportive than their previous version. It also has a higher airflow and is more breathable and would be more temperature regulating than their previous comfort layers as well. It would make sense that with the properties of this higher quality and higher performance polyfoam that it would be a better match in terms of PPP for a higher percentage of people than their previous mattress design.

Post #234 here also has some additional information about their new comfort layer and the fire barrier they are using as well.

They also changed the density of the deeper layers to a polyfoam support core that is about 1.8 lbs.

Phoenix

[benzinojamin]

I’m just seeing the post below about confirmation and further information of the new foam design by Tuft and Needle. Thanks for digging that up!

I was on the tipping point, but with my budget and the wealth of information here, I decided to give DreamFoam’s 12-in-1 model a crack.

I initially wanted to stay under $500 (for a queen) but was considering flexibility if warranted. When I found the 12-in-1, it seemed to hit all the check marks, plus they were running a 10% off Black Friday sale. At $359, shipped, plus the free pillow, I could not pass it up!

The mattress arrived today. It’s all set up and waiting for night to arrive.

My wife and I will give it a go the next couple weeks and I’ll check back in with our experience.

Thanks for your work here Phoenix.

[phoenix]

Hi benzinoamin,

Thanks for letting us know what you ended up deciding and congratulations on your new mattress

I think you made a great choice and I’m looking forward to your feedback when you’ve had the chance to sleep on it for a bit.

Phoenix

[maxfusion16]

I currently have a tuft and needle 10 mattress purchased back in may of last year, I’ve decided to purchase another one since we are happy with the firmness and the easy buying process. I’ll do a comparison between the old and the new model in a few weeks.

[phoenix]

Hi rmz100987,

However, I am unsure on whether to purchase the 5 or 10. I have yet to find a comparison of the two. I’m leaning toward the 5 due to price and being in the military, a thinner, lighter mattress could be convenient for the more frequent than average moving. I’m worried, though, of a much firmer, compared to an already firm mattress, and possibly less heat dissipation.

When you can’t test a mattress in person then a more detailed conversation with a knowledgeable and experienced online retailer/manufacturer will be your best source of guidance because they will know more about their own mattresses than anyone else (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here).

The Ten includes a 3" layer of their new specialty polyfoam material while the Five includes a 2" layer. Both have a 1.8 lb polyfoam support core underneath. Based on conversations with them they would have a very similar firmness and “feel” for most people although for some people that are in higher weight ranges a thinner mattress may feel firmer than a thicker mattress.

The only way to really know how any mattress will feel for you (regardless of how it feels for anyone else) will be based on your own personal testing or sleeping experience but they have a great return policy so if your conversation with them gives you enough confidence that the mattress would be a suitable choice for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) then there is little risk in trying it because if it doesn’t work out as well as you hoped for then they have a great refund policy and you would be free to choose a different mattress.

Phoenix

[SMCK]

I’m also looking forward to another tuft needle write up

[phoenix]

Hi ,

I currently have a tuft and needle 10 mattress purchased back in may of last year, I’ve decided to purchase another one since we are happy with the firmness and the easy buying process. I’ll do a comparison between the old and the new model in a few weeks.

I’m looking forward to your comparison as well … and congratulations on another new mattress

Phoenix

[brochenzo]

After lots of research I think I am going to purchase a T&N tomorrow. I’m a little nervous that they have changed their foam layers and I have not seen any feedback on it yet. Also i’m not sure if the new 1.5lb density base layer is enough? I am a bigger guy at 6’1 250. Because of their generous return policy I think I am just going to try it out for myself. If anyone has any info on the “new” model I would very much appreciate it! Thanks… awesome site!

[phoenix]

Hi brochenzo,

Also i’m not sure if the new 1.5lb density base layer is enough?

Their base layer is 1.8 lb density (not 1.5 lb density) which is certainly suitable in terms of quality and durability for a mattress in this budget range.

There is also more information about their new design in posts #2 and #6 earlier in this same topic.

Most importantly … congratulations on your new mattress

I’m looking forward to your comments and feedback when you’ve received it.

Phoenix

[sheep123]

Brochenzo-

We received the newly designed TN almost 3 weeks ago now. I wrote an initial review in the 10" Tuft and Needle Diary post, message #227 here: https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/the-10-in-tuft-needle-diary

We are still happy with the mattress. I was worried it would be too firm for me, but I am sleeping better on it each night. It has softened just a tiny bit, but it’s still firm, but I have no pressure points on side sleeping.

One thing I will note, thinner layers on top seem to be the best to get the most benefit from the foam. It is not memory foam, but I had a mattress pad that was too thick on the top, and it significantly changed the feel of the mattress.

The mattress did have an odor the first week, most pronounced on day 3 and 4, but after 3 weeks, although still there, it’s not very noticeable.

I know all of us are different in preferences, but TN customer service is great, and the return policy is generous, and it’s worth giving the mattress a try if you like a firm mattress. It is different feeling than the innerspring mattresses I’ve slept on before, and I’m still getting used to the “floating” feeling on this mattress, but I’m sleeping very well so can’t complain.

TN honored my MU discount, and extended the return period to 60 days upon me asking (and telling them my MU membership name).

Be curious to see what you think of the mattress!

[brochenzo]

Thanks a lot for the info Sheep123! I ordered the mattress and, similar to everyone else’s experience, the customer service has been excellent (also they did honor the discount and extended trial.) I will update once I have tested it.

[phoenix]

Hi brochenzo,

No that you’ve actually pulled the trigger … congratulations on your new mattress once again

I’m looking forward to your feedback when you receive it and have had the chance to sleep on it as well.

Phoenix

[ckimchi]

[quote=“Phoenix” post=45781]

It is a more point elastic and conforming material that is more pressure relieving and softer than their previous mattress and with only a single layer (and eliminating the glue between the previous top two layers) the transition and response curve between layers would be “smoother” as well. Because of the higher density and higher compression modulus of the foam (compression modulus is the rate that a material becomes firmer as you compress it more deeply) it is also more supportive than their previous version.[/quote]

Would you mind explaining the nuance what it means for the mattress to become both softer and more supportive? These characteristics seems to be in conflict.

[phoenix]

Hi ckimchi,

Would you mind explaining the nuance what it means for the mattress to become both softer and more supportive? These characteristics seems to be in conflict.

“Support” is often misunderstood and many people believe incorrectly that “firmer is better” or “more supportive” when the real goal of a “supportive” mattress is to keep the spine in good alignment and this requires the type of contouring support that allows some parts of the body to sink in more and some parts of the body to sink in less and this will vary on an individual basis. There is more about primary or “deep” support and secondary or “surface” support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the “roles” of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between “support/alignment” and “comfort/pressure relief” and “feel” and how they interact together.

Phoenix

[m12w]

[quote=“sheep123” post=47054]Brochenzo-

We received the newly designed TN almost 3 weeks ago now. I wrote an initial review in the 10" Tuft and Needle Diary post, message #227 here: https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/the-10-in-tuft-needle-diary

We are still happy with the mattress. I was worried it would be too firm for me, but I am sleeping better on it each night. It has softened just a tiny bit, but it’s still firm, but I have no pressure points on side sleeping.

One thing I will note, thinner layers on top seem to be the best to get the most benefit from the foam. It is not memory foam, but I had a mattress pad that was too thick on the top, and it significantly changed the feel of the mattress.

The mattress did have an odor the first week, most pronounced on day 3 and 4, but after 3 weeks, although still there, it’s not very noticeable.

I know all of us are different in preferences, but TN customer service is great, and the return policy is generous, and it’s worth giving the mattress a try if you like a firm mattress. It is different feeling than the innerspring mattresses I’ve slept on before, and I’m still getting used to the “floating” feeling on this mattress, but I’m sleeping very well so can’t complain.

TN honored my MU discount, and extended the return period to 60 days upon me asking (and telling them my MU membership name).

Be curious to see what you think of the mattress![/quote]

Hi Sheep123,

After almost a year of owning the T&N mattress, can you speak to how well you like it? I’m about to pull the trigger on the Queen sized version.

Thanks !