Tuft & Needle, Casper & Leesa?

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
1

I’ve been researching/reading various reviews I can find on the above 3 manufacturers of “bed in a box” mattresses. They all seem to have good trial periods and you can return if you don’t like for a full refund. In my research, I found that Tuft & Needle redesigned their foam at the end of last year to make the mattress softer than previously. I know that firmness/softness is often in the eyes of the individual as it can vary from person to person. I didn’t know if anyone here had experience with all 3 of the above that could give me a rough idea of the level of firmness each offers in comparison to the other? One site I came across rated the Casper as a 5 (10 being hardest) and the Leesa/T&N at a 6.
Also, for members that have one of these, even if you don’t have experience with the other 2, I would be curious to hear your experience (how you rate firmness, customer service, durability (so far), etc.

thx,
Todd

2

Hi toddstrawser,

I don’t have any personal experience with any of them but there is more information in post #3 here that can help you compare them based on the type and quality of the materials that they use.

Hopefully some of the members here that have experience with more than one of these will see your post and share their experiences. I don’t know anyone that has posted on the forum that has compared the Leesa mattress to the other two on the forum (and I would be cautious with the Leesa because of the 3 lb memory foam that they use) … but there are a few that have tried both the Casper and the Tuft & Needle here and here and here and here. A forum search on Casper Tuft Needle (you can just click the link) will also bring up all the forum posts that mention both of them.

Phoenix

3

Phoenix linked to one of my old posts, thanks for that, comparing my short time on a Casper, and our new Tuft and Needle.

A couple of other thoughts:

Comparing the Casper and Tuft and Needle is very difficult- the surface is very different. The Capser is more “lively” springy, the Tuft and Needle, not so much- somewhere here on MU, I called it a “dead” surface, but hate to use that word, what I mean by that, is there’s not real “bounce” and almost no motion transfer in the mattress. I guess it’s more similar to memory foam in that respect, but without the “sinking” feeling of memory foam.

both are firm, but they feel so different, I wouldn’t know how to give either of them a firmness “number” rating.

And they both feel very different than any innerspring mattress I’ve owned. So if you’re used to an innerspring mattress, I suspect most people would immediately feel that these are different.

The Tuft and Needle I’d “rate” on the firm end of medium-firm, and the Capser is strange- even though to my body, I felt the top surface to be immediately “softer” than the Tuft and Needle, the longer I laid on the mattress, the firmer it felt…

4

Sheep123,

Thanks for your reply. It sounds difficult for you to rate the firmness feel (to you) between the 2. (while the Casper felt soft at first, it felt more firm the more you laid on it, etc).

I think you ended up returning the Casper and you still have the TN, correct? What was your basis for that decision? Did it have to do with the firmness feel of the Casper or due to possible aches you felt after sleeping on it?

Note: I have had the Leesa for a month (I figure that’s a decent amount of time to get used to it (and my previous mattress was a memory foam mattress). My feeling of the Leesa is that it’s firm (that I’m sleeping ON more than IN it. I have slept OK but my wife has complained of shoulder/neck pain since getting it (could be pillow maybe but she had the same pillows previously with no issues).

I can probably be fine with either the Casper/T&N but was trying to see if I could figure out which may work better for her. While you do get to try them out and can return them, having to do that a few times can be a real pain.

5

I only have the Tuft & Needle, and have now slept on it for one full week. If you search Sheep123’s posts they describe my problems almost to the T.

This definitely is not the same mattress it was a week ago, but it is still way too firm. And even though it is “softer” than a week ago, the back ache and pain continues. The entire reason I started looking is because I was beginning to experience a small amount of lower back pain from a 20 yr. old pillow top. Right now I wish I had my old one back. My lower back pain has gotten worse, and I can now add pain between the shoulders to the list. I cannot imagine the other two are firmer than this one.

I did walk on the mattress several times per Sheep’s directions, and it helps - just not enough. Put a 2 1/2" latex topper on it last night and still no better. I suppose it is possible I could “learn” to love it like Sheep did, but not willing to tolerate this for another month. Not the mattress for me.

6

So why did the 2 1/2 latex topper not work? I am in the same boat. My back pain is about the same than my 20 years old pillow top. We did not get rid of our old mattress yet in a spare room. Still feel like I am on top of a brick had for 6 nights now.

7

Anyone here have experience with the dreamfoam 12 n 1? It’s around the pricing of the T&N, also seems to be all polyfoam (2 lb. density it seems) with each 3" section being a different firmness that you can layer yourself to change the feel).

8

Basil- I don’t know what to tell you, except that for me personally, I’ve never had lower back pain on this mattress, even in the first week, which is common for me on many other mattresses. Maybe the mattress isn’t a good match for you.

As far as the scapular pain- that could be a pillow issue- scapular and neck pain are symptoms of a pillow issue as I learned here. I had this on the Tuft and Needle in the beginning, and switching pillows made a huge difference. I appreciate hotels that have gone to having a “soft” and “fIrm” pillow selection- sometimes i choose the soft, sometimes the firm, depending on the mattress in the room…

I hope you can figure something out. I put a 1" latex topper on my Tuft and Needle and it made things worse for me, but I hope your attempts at adding a topper work for you. I think Phoenix recommends no changes for at least the first few weeks, as it can take that long for the mattress to break in and our body to adjust.

Although I know how much it stinks to have pain at night from a mattress. Our last latex/innerspring mattress was uncomfortable to me from day 1, and I had pain on that mattress for 6 years. I actually moved onto the guest futon for 4 years.

I hope you figure something out, good luck!

9

Todd,

If you look back at my previous post that Phoenix linked to, you will see it was my friend who had the Casper, not me.

And if you read through the various threads here, you will find that the “one size fits all mattreeses” really are not.

I love my new Tuft and Needle, we just passed the 9 week mark. I am sleeping with no pain. I am absolutely shocked. I have back, neck and muscle problems that make finding a comfortable slept good surface a big challenge. I was expecting the Tuft and Needle not to work for me, but gave it a shot because my body seems to respond best to regular poly foam, instead of latex or memory foam, the price was good, and easy order and refund if things didn’t work out. Glad i got to try my friend’s Casper, i was able to rule that one out because i developed shoulder pressure point pain after just 15 minutes on the mattress. Lucky for me, and a surprise to me, the TN is pretty much perfect for my body. But this won’t hold true for everyone, we all respond to mattresses differently.

Yet, there are some people that return their TN because it isn’t the best fit for them.

I haven’t read much about what the Leesa mattress feels like, so can’t give you any comparisons to the TN or Casper.

Good luck!

10

Hi Nynygirl77,

The most common reasons why a latex topper (or any topper) doesn’t “work” on a particular mattress that is too firm but doesn’t have any sagging is that either the thickness or firmness isn’t suitable for a particular mattress or a person’s body type or sleeping style or they don’t like the more resilient “feel” of latex.

Phoenix

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Hi toddstrawser,

I switched your post to a new topic so any replies don’t get mixed in with a topic about a different mattress.

Hopefully some of the members here that have purchased it will see your post and share their comments but in the meantime this topic has feedback from several forum members that have purchased it and a forum search on “12 in 1 customizable” (you can just click the link) will bring up all the forum posts that mention it.

Phoenix

12

I have had the T&N 10" for two weeks. I am very pleased. My original concern was that any foam mattress would be too soft, but the T&N pretty much lives up to what I had read from others who indicated it was indeed quite firm.

For starters, it just feels weird when you are used to sleeping on a spring mattress. Weird in a good way. Indeed it is firm. In fact, from the first time I laid on it until last night every time I lay down I think to myself “This is too firm and is like sleeping on something hard”. But that’s when the weird thing happens…it goes from too firm to “just right” in just a couple minutes. It’s really hard to explain. Very comfortable once it “adjusts” to you but feels too firm before it does.

I know I am not making a believer out of you with my strange description, but it’s really pretty cool to experience it.

13

dwzemens-

Me too! I grew up on innerspring mattresses and that’s what I’ve slept on my entire adult life. Switching to all foam was quite odd, but like you say, in a good way :slight_smile:

I had the oddest sensation of “floating” on the TN when we first got it- that lasted a few weeks- now I’ve adjusted, and the mattress doesn’t feel like anything at night, except comfortable!

14

Nynygirl77, the topper did not work in the sense that I still had the same aches and pains in the morning. It did make the mattress softer to lay on, but you could still tell you had a topper over a “brick” as you put it.

dwzemens and Sheep123, I am curious about your sleeping style. Reason I ask is I am pretty much exclusively a side sleeper, and not there long before I begin to feel some pain, especially between the shoulders which is something I never experienced. Sometimes I will roll on to my back to try to relieve some of it, and I think the mattress does not feel that bad laying on my back (though still too firm for me, just much better than on my side).

15

Hi Basil-

I am primarily a side sleeper, although start out the night on my back. I’d say I’m at least a 75% side sleeper, predominately on left side because my right side has a neck/shoulder issue (2 disk bulges and a nerve impingement). for me though, I can stay on the Tuft and Needle longer on my back than any other mattress I’ve been on (without a pillow under my knees, this is the first mattress in years I’ve been able to do this), and on my right side without getting neck pain, although start to feel discomfort after about an hour (on most other mattresses, I can only tolerate about 15 minutes on right side).

Have you tried switching pillows? I was having upper thoracic/ scapular pain in the beginning on the Tuft and Needle, and asked this very question to Phoenix: (page 16 in Tuft and Needle Diary):

  1. Do you have any ideas why I got the scapular/thoracic pain last night? I’m still achey 5 hours later, despite rolling on my foam roller and hot bath. Is there anything I can change in the mattress/pillow or the way I sleep to help?

Phoenix gave me a link to likely causes of various back pains on a mattress:
https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/futons-looking-at-otis

For my case, it turned out to be a pillow issue when sleeping on my side. I switched pillows, and paid attention to my sleep position, trying to keep everything aligned, and for me, the pain went away after a week.

On my back, on the same pillow, or any pillow, I get some upper back discomfort, so I did something I’ve done in hotels on mattresses that aren’t ideal (those that I am forced to sleep on my back because of too much pressure point pain in shoulders on side):

On my back, I take a small hand towel and roll it up to the exact size needed to support my neck. This is so comfortable to me, and something suggested to me by my acupuncturist several years ago, and much more comfortable than any pillow I’ve tried while on my back. I think this works best for me on firm mattresses.

Hopefully you can figure something out. Maybe the mattress isn’t the best for your “PPP”.

Phoenix usually says not to make any major changes for the first few weeks, to let your body adjust and the mattress materials break in, but I don’t know what the suggestion is if you can’t sleep due to pain!

by the way, do you have a mattress protector on the mattress? That can change the feel of the foam too (make it firmer).

Best of luck.

16

Sheep123, appreciate your responses. Still have the Tuft & Needle - for some reason I want to make it work if I can. Partly is I have put so much work and pain into at this point - lol.

So far I have learned not to put the mattress pad on it. Found that out first night and it made a world of difference. The latex topper I tried did not really do the job either. Initial top softer, but anything other than a sheet seems to make the mattress itself a lot firmer.

Second, walking on it (and sleeping) has helped it soften a lot, but still very firm. Definitely not the same mattress it was 10 days ago, and each day seemed to be changing but not so much the last day or two. Seems to have pretty much stabilized in its firmness.

We both seem to sleep on our side, so that is not a difference.

Only think left I can think of is the foundation. Initially mine was on a platform, now on adjustable bases, both of which are solid. I believe you are on a slatted foundation which may give your mattress a little more flex. Slats would not really be an option for me because I want the adjustable base.

In one of your earlier posts you indicated it took a total of about 5 weeks for you to love it. How much (and what) changed after the first couple of weeks? Thanks.

Basil

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Basil- Yes, I love my TN mattress now. No pressure point pain for me (common on a lot of mattresses for me), I can sleep on my back without a pillow under my knees (unusual for me) and sleep on my back longer than other mattresses, and this is the first time in about 20 years I haven’t woken up with a bit of stiffness in the morning. I rarely wake up at all at night anymore, also unusual for me.

The first week, I wasn’t too sure about the TN- it was better than what we had previously, but that first week I did have some scapular pain, and wasn’t used to the “floating” feel on the mattress. I had no pressure point pain, nor lower back pain, but was still waking up a few times a night just because the experience on this mattress was so different than what I was used to.

Just at the end of the first week, I was starting to sort of get used to the mattress, then we changed foundations from a flexible slat foundation to a non-flexing knock down foundation. The mattress got firmer, and I wasn’t entirely happy about that. After a few nights though, the firmness didn’t bother me. You may be right that our foundation may have a bit more “give” even though the actual wood slats do not flex like our old foundation in which the slats were designed to flex.

At about the third week, I’d say, I started to notice that I was sleeping more through the night. The mattress was still different than I had before- I don’t feel “cuddled” on this mattress like previous pillow tops that I like. Our last mattress was a brick, but did have a 1" soft latex topper, 1" polyfoam topper, and a thick fluffy mattress pad- even though the support layer was too firm for me, and the comfort layer not thick enough, that extra “stuff” on top at least made me feel “cuddled” and reduced my pressure point pain, but I still had back pain and stiffness in the morning.

About the fourth week, I started to like the mattress more.

By about the 5th week, I was very satisfied, and came to realize how much I love my mattress! I’ve never felt this happy about a mattress before. I can’t believe the amount of money I’ve spent on x-rays, physical therapy, acupuncture, etc, and now realize, my chronic back pain must have been caused by my prior mattresses! I do have some physical problems, back disk problems as well as fibromyalgia (which is characterized by muscle and joint pain), but since getting the TN, I haven’t had a back pain flair up and I’ve had far fewer fibroymalgia flair ups, which I suspect is because I’m sleeping more soundly. I have not woken up stiff, except maybe did on the first week with that scapular pain, I honestly don’t remember.

I imagine some people adapt quicker (they are probably younger with no structural issues!) and some people never adapt. I don’t know at what point that call comes- although Phoenix says to give your body a few weeks to adjust to a new mattress, and also it takes that amount of time for the mattress to break in.

Hope this helps a little. Are you sleeping at all better? Do you still have back pain? I think it’s been about a week for you on the mattress?

18

Update: Between the T&N, Casper & Leesa, I had chosen the Leesa mattress and we tried it out for over a month. Both my wife and I thought it was too firm for us. I was otherwise sleeping OK but my wife was getting neck/shoulder pain so was unhappy. Rebecca @ Leesa support was terriffic. I let her know that we wanted to return the mattress. She called and setup a pickup with Salvation Army, I took a picture of the donation receipt and emailed to her, and she processed my refund that same afternoon. So while we didn’t fall in love with the mattress, their support was awesome. (so if any of you were thinking of trying them, I’d say there should be no risk to do so given how well/easy their return policy turned out to be).
Before returning, I had to do more research on what to get in the meantime. I was thinking I’d try the Casper, as general consensus seems to be it’s not as firm as the T&N. But from reading on this forum, I found out about Dreamfoam bedding. I was intrigued by their all-latex mattress but I had never slept on one. I took a quick trip to the local Original mattress company and tried out their latex bed, which I liked (it did have a polyfoam core). With at least a general understanding of how latex should feel, I called Dreamfoam and talked to Chuck about their models. I ended up purchasing the all-latex Ultimate Dreams Freedom model. I liked the fact it was all latex, that the materials were quality (confirmed by posts here), and really liked the fact that it was customizable at home ourselves, even by side of the mattress (we purchased the king size). So one of us could go firm if we wanted and the other soft, etc. We have slept on this mattress for 3 nights so far and it’s been fantastic! Feels a bit cloud like but with great support (we both have started on the ‘default’ configuration of soft/medium/firm layers, knowing we can alter if we didn’t like it or if it starts to change over time). For us, the ‘feel’ of this mattress is totally different than what we experienced with the Leesa. (not to say the Leesa would be bad for others). I’m tempted to see what the Freedom would feel like in it’s firmest configuration but at this point, we’re happy with the feel so I’m not going to change it just to see). But knowing I can do that if needed is a good feeling.
Further, since we have fallen in love with the latex feel, and while checking out the latex mattress at Original Mattress, their sample pillows were the Rejuvinate Tallalay all latex pillows. I thought they were awesome and purchased 2 of those. They feel soft yet supportive and yet they don’t flatten out (like some feather/down pillows do). They were cheaper @ the store than I found online (about 40% less) and I wasn’t sure what the 1 free Dreamfoam pillow would be like (which you get by being a member of this forum) and knew we could still find a use for the 3rd pillow when it arrived. We also like the dreamfoam latex pillow but a difference is that it’s made up of small pieces of latex which you can feel (if you try) while the Rejuvenate pillows are solid latex with some holes drilled for airflow). But we still liked the dreamfoam pillow (just the Rejuvenate pillow a bit more).

19

Hi toddstrawser,

Thanks for taking the time to share an update and it’s great to hear that Leesa made the return process so painless.

Congratulations on your new Freedom mattress as well :slight_smile:

As you know it’s a high quality/value choice and it’s good to hear that it’s working out so well for you!

Phoenix