First post in the forum after some serious lurking… First off – many thanks to Phoenix and all the great posters for the terrific information laid out here for everyone to benefit from. Independent review sites like this one are what make the Internet a fun and safer place to buy stuff. :woohoo:
I am seriously considering a purchase after all the great feedback I’ve read in regards to the manufacturer, Brooklyn Bedding. But at $1800 for the Cal King, I figured I’d better do my due diligence. The mattress features the same zipper cover (and removable comfort layer) as their well-regarded Eurotop model, but instead of a poly core base, it features a full latex base as well as a quilted wool top layer. Seems like a great combo, right? Making it even more attractive is the fact that you can choose pretty much any type of latex for both latex layers.
I’m replacing a pretty decent (at least it WAS for ~10 yrs) Miralux innerspring with a latex comfort layer that finally started breaking down and causing pain. It has a moderately soft top over a firm, deep base. In checking out the local Sit n Sleep, I’ve confirmed that my (and SWMBO’s) preference is for a medium to medium-soft mattress, with a strong preference for either latex or gel memory foam. I tend to be the more limiting factor, being a side sleeper of about 6’2"/235 with a history of moderate hip and shoulder pain. Based on a lot of research on this site and a few others, I am thinking of pulling the trigger on a 6 or 7 talalay comfort layer atop a firm natural dunlop core for support and durability. Just thought I’d pick some brains before I take the plunge! Any thoughts on whether I’m on the right track or whether there I should save the extra $800 and just get the eurotop? Thanks in advance for your kind feedback!!!
They’ve only recently added this mattress to their lineup so it doesn’t have a lot of feedback on the forum.
You can see some of my thoughts about the difference between a latex/polyfoam hybrid and an all latex mattress in post #2 here. As you can see … while they may have very similar “value” my own preference would lean towards all latex for those that can comfortably afford it.
To make matters even more difficult … there are also some options between all latex mattresses that have different prices and degrees of ability to customize, re-arrange, or exchange layers layers in their design that are listed in post #21 here. Any of these can make great all latex choices for different reasons and have different options available. The ones that have less ways to customize tend to be a little lower cost and those that have more ability to customize have a little higher cost.
Any of these would be what I consider to be among the best value in the country.
I am looking at this all Latrex mattress as well but having a hard time understanding the materials and specs. Does anyone know where Brooklyn Bedding gets their Talalay latex? Is it all natural? Is it made by Latex International?
Thank you for the quick reply. Having read many of your informative posts on several related subjects, I feel that I’m very much on the same page in regards to material preferences as well as relative value. Looking at your list of merchants, I saw a couple of other options that offer a similar value in my range ($1-2000). The 9" Talalay at Rocky Mountain Mattress stood out. Being about $100 less but with about an inch less latex (on the comfort layer), it’s a similar value proposition. My first instinct is to stay away from poly foam altogether in the interest of durability. I am also inclined to stick with the Ultimate Dreams mattress because of its composition of 1" wool over 3" of Talalay on top of 6" of Talalay or Dunlop.
Given my specific needs and preferences, my instincts lead me in the direction of a 3" medium soft Talalay (~25 ILD, BB’s rating of 6 or 7) over a firm (~36ILD) Dunlop base – as I do like a softish top with firmish support underneath. I know that only the individual can truly judge one’s preference, but given what I’ve shared, does this combination sound optimal, or would you suggest any particular tweaks?
@ pglover19: According to the product page on Amazon, you specify either Dunlop or natural/blended Talalay in either layer. And from what I’ve read, natural seems to almost always be the way to go. Sorry, but I don’t remember where they get their latex, but they do claim that their mattresses are made in the USA. I was looking to specifically avoid toxic Chinese crap, and it doesn’t appear that BB uses any of it. Hope this helps!
What I saw was a $100 difference in the Cal King models – $1699 vs $1799. I think their red prices already reflect that discount.
I’m not sure IRC, but I also don’t think that RMM offers quite as many options for the core materials. But from everything I’ve read, that 1" could make a significant difference for some people.
There is no “formula” where anyone can know for someone else what may be “optimal” and the only way to know how any mattress will end up feeling and performing for any individual is to sleep on the mattress in person or to test a very similar mattress locally for long enough and accurately enough that you can confidently predict how another very similar mattress would feel and perform for you. There are also many different layering combinations that could be optimal. For example a mattress that used a 6" support core of a certain ILD with 2" of latex on top of it may be similar to many people to a mattress that used 3" of latex on top of a 6" support core if you changed the ILD of both the top layer and the support layer in the right direction so that the feel and performance of each converged together. Different pathways to a similar outcome … although they would also have other differences between them and may not feel the same to all people.
So 3" of latex over a 6" support core would certainly be 'in the range" of a design or potential layering combination that could be used for a side sleeper of 235 lbs but the type of latex and the specific ILD’s of each layer are what you will need to either sleep on or test in person to know for sure. More specific than this would depend on what your body tells you with local testing on specific combinations or failing that the suggestions of the manufacturer based on their “averages” for customers that were similar to you and any other input that you could provide them to help them help you more effectively.
I know it’s one of the most common questions asked on the forum … but it’s also the question that is the least possible for anyone to know or predict for someone else. Local testing for long enough and accurately enough to predict the long term experience on a mattress or actually sleeping on a mattress is the only way to know for sure. The next best way after that is a more in depth conversation and the suggestions of a manufacturer who has much more detailed knowledge of their specific materials and is in the best position to make suggestions that “fit the average” for their mattresses. In this case you will know how closely you come to their averages once you receive it and how much if any fine tuning needs to be done.
Phoenix
@pglover
Yes … it comes from Latex International.
@ hubbs
As S0L0 mentioned … the discount is already reflected in the prices. Like all the members here … both are great value IMO and one is a lower cost with slightly less latex and with fewer options both before and after purchase and the other is higher cost with more options both before and after purchase.
If this helps any, I am 6'1" 220 and a side sleeper. I have a 3x3" natural talalay mattress. I tried a 22/32/32 configuration (much like what your considering), while very supportive I still had slight pressure on my hip and shoulder. Slept good, just took longer to fall asleep. I myself wouldn't go higher than 32 with the bottom layer if you're looking for pressure relief on your hips and shoulders. I ended up with 22/27/32 and this feels great, almost no pressure. My shoulders would just not sink in enough with the 32 three inches below me. 36 would've been way too firm.
Thank you so much for the feedback, Brotherloo! Very good to know about someone’s real-life experience with a similar type product. On your suggestion, I think I might just dial back on the firmness just a bit – especially in the comfort layer, as that just makes sense.
As you might guess, I am trying to hit that sweet spot between durability and “give” in the core layer. Maybe I’m just overthinking it, as according to many (incl. our good Phoenix), it’s really just the comfort layer that is subject to most of the wear. But then over the life of the mattress, I’d expect the durability of the core will eventually come into play too.
Out of curiousity, whose 3x3 did you end up going with?
I got my mattress from Natural Bed Co. in Akron(local) in Nov. It is a King all natural talalay. It's split so I had 6 layers to play with when I got it. Originally I had one firm dunlop(40 ILD?) but switched it out for an N3(27 ILD?). I tried almost every combo I had for a week or so before I would rearrange.
I've slept on the N2/N3/N4 (22/27/32) for three weeks now and I don't think I can make it much better for me.
Great info, your comparison to the poly core may explain why some of the negative reviewers for the Ultimate Dreams hybrid mattresses felt like they were “crashing” into the much harder core. I didn’t even realize they weren’t full latex until I read your post…now I’m considering the full latex one instead.
[quote=“Phoenix” post=12923]Hi SOLO,
They’ve only recently added this mattress to their lineup so it doesn’t have a lot of feedback on the forum.
You can see some of my thoughts about the difference between a latex/polyfoam hybrid and an all latex mattress in post #2 here. As you can see … while they may have very similar “value” my own preference would lean towards all latex for those that can comfortably afford it.
To make matters even more difficult … there are also some options between all latex mattresses that have different prices and degrees of ability to customize, re-arrange, or exchange layers layers in their design that are listed in post #21 here. Any of these can make great all latex choices for different reasons and have different options available. The ones that have less ways to customize tend to be a little lower cost and those that have more ability to customize have a little higher cost.
Any of these would be what I consider to be among the best value in the country.
Polyfoam ILD (or IFD which is more commonly used in polyfoam) is measured differently than ILD in latex. Both use ILD/IFD at 25% compression (although some manufacturers use 40% ILD in Europe or Asia whic would be different again) but with polyfoam it’s measured with a 4" layer which means that the IFD is the force it takes to compress the layer by 1" while latex ILD is measured on a 6" layer so ILD is the force it takes to compress the core by 1.5" (which takes more force). This means that polyfoam would actually be firmer in the same ILD than latex at compressions of exactly 25%.
In addition to this though … ILD is not the most reliable indicator of how soft or firm a layer will feel. Compression modulus is even more important because very few people actually sink into a layer exactly 25% and compression modulus is the rate at which a foam gets firmer as you compress it more. Latex has a higher compression modulus than polyfoam. In addition to this … latex is very “point elastic” which means that a smaller area can compress with less effect on or resistance from the surrounding area than polyfoam. This is much like the difference between pocket coils that act individually and innersprings that have helicals that join the springs together so that the compression of each spring will affect the springs around it which makes the spring stiffer.
in addition to this … latex has a lower hysteresis (how much energy is absorbed) and conversely a higher resilience (how much energy it returns) than polyfoam so there are also factors that can make latex feel firmer depending on how much a specific layer is compressed in a mattress. Because of its unique qualities and ability to take on the shape of the person on it (point elasticity) it can feel softer and firmer at the same time and some will feel it as one or the other depending on what they are more sensitive to, their body type, sleeping position, and how they sink into the mattress.
With someone that was a heavier weight that used a softer comfort layer … it would be much more likely that they would feel the firmness of the “stiffer” polyfoam underneath it and the transition between the two layers. This is one of those “counter intuitive” circumstances where using softer foam can actually make a mattress feel firmer.
Well Phoenix… thank you again for all the helpful comments and information. In the past week or so I have learned 10 times more about mattresses, latex mattresses and the mattress industry in general than I ever knew. This forum has been invaluable in making that possible.
After loads of discussion and research, I’ve decided on the all natural Talalay from Arizona Premium (www.mattresses.net) – not the Ultimate Dreams from BB. Talking shop with the owner Ken today really clinched it for me. Talk about a latex mattress evangelist! You can tell that he believes very much in what he’s doing, and he comes off as 100% genuine. He set me up with a Cal King King All Natural Talalay w/Free Bamboo Cover Upgrade,, and I opted for the 3" topper upgrade (only about $120 more) – mainly because I’m a big time side sleeper and thought it worth the extra investment. Both he and Chuck from Brooklyn Bedding agreed that my needs would be best met with a soft (22 ILD) upper layer over a medium (32 ILD) core – good enough for me. He graciously honored the 5% MU discount and had some very nice things to say about both you and the website.
Overall, I really appreciated the fact that Ken isn’t at a shortage for words and takes the time to talk about his product (and, well, EVERYTHING ) He also isn’t shy about putting his name and his face out there (Youtube, etc), representing his wares and his belief in them. During our lengthy conversation, he let me in on a lot of industry information (only two mfg of talalay in the world, for example – or that certain competitors use inferior/returned latex to cut costs).
My out the door price was a bit over $1700 including $90 for shipping. Not too shabby for a 100% natural Talalay latex bed with removable 6" core and 3" topper, 1.5" of quilted wool and a zippered bamboo cover. I feel I’ve made the best possible decision and will be very happy with this purchase for a good long time moving forward. Thanks again to Phoenix and to all the posters who take the time to share their knowledge and experience on this forum. I will definitely report back after I’ve owned my new bed for a while – not scheduled to arrive until sometime in early March. :S
As you know I think very highly of Ken and we have spent many hours on the phone sharing thoughts and ideas about mattresses, materials, and many other related (and often unrelated) subjects that long conversations tend to lead to. He is a “character” in the best sense of the word
You did some great research and found the mattress that is clearly the best match for your personal value equation which of course is the reason for the site and the goal of everyone who comes here.
So congratulations on your new mattress … and I hope you have the chance to share your feedback once you’ve had the chance to sleep on it
Why did you chose the All Natural Talalay versus the Blended Talalay or Dunlop? I just ordered the same mattress last night and talked extensively with Ken and he recommended the Blended Talalay for me. It’s a little cheaper ($100), but that’s not a concern for me. Is there a particularly reason why you chose the All Natural Talalay? I should receive my mattress in 4 weeks so I do have time to change my order, but I am questioning my decision on the Blended Talalay.
For me it was a matter of starting with the mattress that offered the more critical features and then tailoring it from there. I selected this one because of the unlaminated layers, so I can fiddle with it until we get the combination right. Also the bamboo/wool top in this model was attractive to us. I think it just happened that it specifies the all natural latex options, between which I chose the Talalay. Though the writeups are somewhat conflicting about which is better, I suspect that the blended would be marginally more durable. I like the fact that the natural product is… well, natural – but I am by no means biased over the blended product. And to be honest, I had no idea it might actually be cheaper. Hmmm… I might have to ask Ken about that… :unsure:
UPDATE: I just spoke with Ken about this – and sure enough, he confirmed that 1) HE sleeps on a blended Talalay, and 2) there is indeed a significant cost savings going the blended route – in my case, around $200. All things being equal, I made the switch. Given the added durability of the blended Talalay as well as the immediate cost savings, I see little reason to quibble over it not being 100% natural. I think Ken just gets tired of questioning people (like me) who come at him asking for the all natural Talalay. In my case, it would have made all the difference, but I can hardly blame him for kind of giving up on setting people straight. Sometimes it’s easier to just give people what they ask for, rather than to sleuth out what they actually need.
So… as of now, I am waiting on a Cal King adjustable w/blended Talalay, 5.6" base @ 32ILD, 3" topper (upgraded) @ 19 ILD, 1.5" quilted wool, bamboo cover, etc. Haven’t gotten the new invoice yet, but expecting it to be around $1500-$1550 – which I consider to be an absolute bargain for what I’m getting. Can’t wait to get it!
Considering this layer is closest to you, I wanted the best possible feel. It is also standard in the model I ordered. BTW, I’ve changed my order thanks to pglover’s post. Thank you for that, pglover! Please see my edit above for details.
Just to clarify … Dunlop latex is not intrinsically more durable than Talalay latex. The durability of latex depends on the type of Dunlop or Talalay you are comparing and on other factors as well but in an apples to apples comparison (even though Dunlop and Talalay are different species of apples) Dunlop and Talalay are rough equivalents and other factors besides the manufacturing method would have a bigger effect on durability between them.
The mattress features the same zipper cover (and removable comfort layer) as their well-regarded Eurotop model, but instead of a poly core base, it features a full latex base as well as a quilted wool top layer. Seems like a great combo, right? Making it even more attractive is the fact that you can choose pretty much any type of latex for both latex layers.