Ultimate Dreams Total Latex Mattress

What I saw was a $100 difference in the Cal King models – $1699 vs $1799. I think their red prices already reflect that discount.

I’m not sure IRC, but I also don’t think that RMM offers quite as many options for the core materials. But from everything I’ve read, that 1" could make a significant difference for some people.

Hi S0L0,

There is no “formula” where anyone can know for someone else what may be “optimal” and the only way to know how any mattress will end up feeling and performing for any individual is to sleep on the mattress in person or to test a very similar mattress locally for long enough and accurately enough that you can confidently predict how another very similar mattress would feel and perform for you. There are also many different layering combinations that could be optimal. For example a mattress that used a 6" support core of a certain ILD with 2" of latex on top of it may be similar to many people to a mattress that used 3" of latex on top of a 6" support core if you changed the ILD of both the top layer and the support layer in the right direction so that the feel and performance of each converged together. Different pathways to a similar outcome … although they would also have other differences between them and may not feel the same to all people.

So 3" of latex over a 6" support core would certainly be 'in the range" of a design or potential layering combination that could be used for a side sleeper of 235 lbs but the type of latex and the specific ILD’s of each layer are what you will need to either sleep on or test in person to know for sure. More specific than this would depend on what your body tells you with local testing on specific combinations or failing that the suggestions of the manufacturer based on their “averages” for customers that were similar to you and any other input that you could provide them to help them help you more effectively.

I know it’s one of the most common questions asked on the forum … but it’s also the question that is the least possible for anyone to know or predict for someone else. Local testing for long enough and accurately enough to predict the long term experience on a mattress or actually sleeping on a mattress is the only way to know for sure. The next best way after that is a more in depth conversation and the suggestions of a manufacturer who has much more detailed knowledge of their specific materials and is in the best position to make suggestions that “fit the average” for their mattresses. In this case you will know how closely you come to their averages once you receive it and how much if any fine tuning needs to be done.

Phoenix

@pglover

Yes … it comes from Latex International.

@ hubbs

As S0L0 mentioned … the discount is already reflected in the prices. Like all the members here … both are great value IMO and one is a lower cost with slightly less latex and with fewer options both before and after purchase and the other is higher cost with more options both before and after purchase.

Hi SOLO,

  If this helps any, I am 6'1" 220 and a side sleeper.  I have a 3x3" natural talalay mattress.  I tried a 22/32/32 configuration (much like what your considering), while very supportive I still had slight pressure on my hip and shoulder.  Slept good, just took longer to fall asleep.  I myself wouldn't go higher than 32 with the bottom layer if you're looking for pressure relief on your hips and shoulders.  I ended up with 22/27/32 and this feels great, almost no pressure.  My shoulders would just not sink in enough with the 32 three inches below me.  36 would've been way too firm.

Good luck

Thank you so much for the feedback, Brotherloo! Very good to know about someone’s real-life experience with a similar type product. On your suggestion, I think I might just dial back on the firmness just a bit – especially in the comfort layer, as that just makes sense.

As you might guess, I am trying to hit that sweet spot between durability and “give” in the core layer. Maybe I’m just overthinking it, as according to many (incl. our good Phoenix), it’s really just the comfort layer that is subject to most of the wear. But then over the life of the mattress, I’d expect the durability of the core will eventually come into play too.

Out of curiousity, whose 3x3 did you end up going with?

Hi SOLO,

I got my mattress from Natural Bed Co. in Akron(local) in Nov.  It is a King all natural talalay.  It's split so I had 6 layers to play with when I got it.  Originally I had one firm dunlop(40 ILD?) but switched it out for an N3(27 ILD?).  I tried almost every combo I had for a week or so before I would rearrange.

    I've slept on the N2/N3/N4 (22/27/32) for three weeks now and I don't think I can make it much better for me.

Great info, your comparison to the poly core may explain why some of the negative reviewers for the Ultimate Dreams hybrid mattresses felt like they were “crashing” into the much harder core. I didn’t even realize they weren’t full latex until I read your post…now I’m considering the full latex one instead.

[quote=“Phoenix” post=12923]Hi SOLO,

They’ve only recently added this mattress to their lineup so it doesn’t have a lot of feedback on the forum.

You can see some of my thoughts about the difference between a latex/polyfoam hybrid and an all latex mattress in post #2 here. As you can see … while they may have very similar “value” my own preference would lean towards all latex for those that can comfortably afford it.

To make matters even more difficult … there are also some options between all latex mattresses that have different prices and degrees of ability to customize, re-arrange, or exchange layers layers in their design that are listed in post #21 here. Any of these can make great all latex choices for different reasons and have different options available. The ones that have less ways to customize tend to be a little lower cost and those that have more ability to customize have a little higher cost.

Any of these would be what I consider to be among the best value in the country.

Phoenix[/quote]

Hi moogleii,

Polyfoam ILD (or IFD which is more commonly used in polyfoam) is measured differently than ILD in latex. Both use ILD/IFD at 25% compression (although some manufacturers use 40% ILD in Europe or Asia whic would be different again) but with polyfoam it’s measured with a 4" layer which means that the IFD is the force it takes to compress the layer by 1" while latex ILD is measured on a 6" layer so ILD is the force it takes to compress the core by 1.5" (which takes more force). This means that polyfoam would actually be firmer in the same ILD than latex at compressions of exactly 25%.

In addition to this though … ILD is not the most reliable indicator of how soft or firm a layer will feel. Compression modulus is even more important because very few people actually sink into a layer exactly 25% and compression modulus is the rate at which a foam gets firmer as you compress it more. Latex has a higher compression modulus than polyfoam. In addition to this … latex is very “point elastic” which means that a smaller area can compress with less effect on or resistance from the surrounding area than polyfoam. This is much like the difference between pocket coils that act individually and innersprings that have helicals that join the springs together so that the compression of each spring will affect the springs around it which makes the spring stiffer.

in addition to this … latex has a lower hysteresis (how much energy is absorbed) and conversely a higher resilience (how much energy it returns) than polyfoam so there are also factors that can make latex feel firmer depending on how much a specific layer is compressed in a mattress. Because of its unique qualities and ability to take on the shape of the person on it (point elasticity) it can feel softer and firmer at the same time and some will feel it as one or the other depending on what they are more sensitive to, their body type, sleeping position, and how they sink into the mattress.

With someone that was a heavier weight that used a softer comfort layer … it would be much more likely that they would feel the firmness of the “stiffer” polyfoam underneath it and the transition between the two layers. This is one of those “counter intuitive” circumstances where using softer foam can actually make a mattress feel firmer.

Phoenix

Well Phoenix… thank you again for all the helpful comments and information. In the past week or so I have learned 10 times more about mattresses, latex mattresses and the mattress industry in general than I ever knew. This forum has been invaluable in making that possible.

After loads of discussion and research, I’ve decided on the all natural Talalay from Arizona Premium (www.mattresses.net) – not the Ultimate Dreams from BB. Talking shop with the owner Ken today really clinched it for me. Talk about a latex mattress evangelist! You can tell that he believes very much in what he’s doing, and he comes off as 100% genuine. He set me up with a Cal King King All Natural Talalay w/Free Bamboo Cover Upgrade,, and I opted for the 3" topper upgrade (only about $120 more) – mainly because I’m a big time side sleeper and thought it worth the extra investment. Both he and Chuck from Brooklyn Bedding agreed that my needs would be best met with a soft (22 ILD) upper layer over a medium (32 ILD) core – good enough for me. He graciously honored the 5% MU discount and had some very nice things to say about both you and the website.

Overall, I really appreciated the fact that Ken isn’t at a shortage for words and takes the time to talk about his product (and, well, EVERYTHING :wink: ) He also isn’t shy about putting his name and his face out there (Youtube, etc), representing his wares and his belief in them. During our lengthy conversation, he let me in on a lot of industry information (only two mfg of talalay in the world, for example – or that certain competitors use inferior/returned latex to cut costs).

My out the door price was a bit over $1700 including $90 for shipping. Not too shabby for a 100% natural Talalay latex bed with removable 6" core and 3" topper, 1.5" of quilted wool and a zippered bamboo cover. I feel I’ve made the best possible decision and will be very happy with this purchase for a good long time moving forward. Thanks again to Phoenix and to all the posters who take the time to share their knowledge and experience on this forum. I will definitely report back after I’ve owned my new bed for a while – not scheduled to arrive until sometime in early March. :S

Hi S0L0,

As you know I think very highly of Ken and we have spent many hours on the phone sharing thoughts and ideas about mattresses, materials, and many other related (and often unrelated) subjects that long conversations tend to lead to. He is a “character” in the best sense of the word :slight_smile:

You did some great research and found the mattress that is clearly the best match for your personal value equation which of course is the reason for the site and the goal of everyone who comes here.

So congratulations on your new mattress … and I hope you have the chance to share your feedback once you’ve had the chance to sleep on it :slight_smile:

Phoenix

Solo,

Why did you chose the All Natural Talalay versus the Blended Talalay or Dunlop? I just ordered the same mattress last night and talked extensively with Ken and he recommended the Blended Talalay for me. It’s a little cheaper ($100), but that’s not a concern for me. Is there a particularly reason why you chose the All Natural Talalay? I should receive my mattress in 4 weeks so I do have time to change my order, but I am questioning my decision on the Blended Talalay.

Hi pglover19,

For me it was a matter of starting with the mattress that offered the more critical features and then tailoring it from there. I selected this one because of the unlaminated layers, so I can fiddle with it until we get the combination right. Also the bamboo/wool top in this model was attractive to us. I think it just happened that it specifies the all natural latex options, between which I chose the Talalay. Though the writeups are somewhat conflicting about which is better, I suspect that the blended would be marginally more durable. I like the fact that the natural product is… well, natural – but I am by no means biased over the blended product. And to be honest, I had no idea it might actually be cheaper. Hmmm… I might have to ask Ken about that… :unsure:

UPDATE: I just spoke with Ken about this – and sure enough, he confirmed that 1) HE sleeps on a blended Talalay, and 2) there is indeed a significant cost savings going the blended route – in my case, around $200. All things being equal, I made the switch. Given the added durability of the blended Talalay as well as the immediate cost savings, I see little reason to quibble over it not being 100% natural. I think Ken just gets tired of questioning people (like me) who come at him asking for the all natural Talalay. In my case, it would have made all the difference, but I can hardly blame him for kind of giving up on setting people straight. Sometimes it’s easier to just give people what they ask for, rather than to sleuth out what they actually need. :slight_smile:

So… as of now, I am waiting on a Cal King adjustable w/blended Talalay, 5.6" base @ 32ILD, 3" topper (upgraded) @ 19 ILD, 1.5" quilted wool, bamboo cover, etc. Haven’t gotten the new invoice yet, but expecting it to be around $1500-$1550 – which I consider to be an absolute bargain for what I’m getting. Can’t wait to get it!

S0L0,

Why did you choose the bamboo/wool cover overthe organic cotton cover?

Considering this layer is closest to you, I wanted the best possible feel. It is also standard in the model I ordered. BTW, I’ve changed my order thanks to pglover’s post. Thank you for that, pglover! :slight_smile: Please see my edit above for details.

S0L0 and pglover19,

what are the components in the blended Talalay latex and anything unhealthy in there? for core to be more durable, why not using dunlop latex instead?

Thanks.

Hi Hubbs,

Just to clarify … Dunlop latex is not intrinsically more durable than Talalay latex. The durability of latex depends on the type of Dunlop or Talalay you are comparing and on other factors as well but in an apples to apples comparison (even though Dunlop and Talalay are different species of apples) Dunlop and Talalay are rough equivalents and other factors besides the manufacturing method would have a bigger effect on durability between them.

Phoenix

From what I’ve read, the blended Talalay uses some (unknown to me) quantity of synthetic latex to provide greater durability than the natural latex. This blended Talalay is the one that’s been on the market for decades and has been subjected to extensive testing for safety and toxicity – so I feel pretty confident that whatever is actually in the synthetic stuff, there seems to be very little effective difference between this and the natural Talalay – other than a significant price break for the more durable, blended product. Putting this another way, I asked Ken Hightower (from mattresses.net) what HE sleeps on, and he told me it was the blended Talalay. I fit’s good enough for him, it’s good enough for me. B)

As for the Dunlop – you have to consider what you’re after. Dunlop provides what has been described as a denser, firmer product, which is good if that’s what you’re after. I considered it until finding that my needs were more toward the softer range. Accordingly, I ordered a soft topper over a medium core, so as to avoid too detectable a pressure gradient between the two. Dunlop also tends to be less uniform than Talalay, due to the different processes used in their respective production. Unlike with the Talalay, the consensus on natural vs synthetic Dunlop is that the synthetic blends are actually inferior to the natural.

I hope this helps.

Thanks S0L0. So your new mattress has less than 9" total latex and it is sick enough?

Thank you Phoenix.

I see. I thought I read somewhere that all natural Dunlop latex core would be more long lasting than Talalay latex.

I just came back from a Savvy Rest store testing the layer combinations and was told that a 3" layer of Talalay is $300 more than that of Dunlop. All the combinations involved only top layer using Talalay latex, maybe for the cost reason.

I also tested Natura Eco Rest floor model that feels very much like a simple futon mattress with enough support but more pressures in the hip and shoulder area. When added a 2" LatexBliss topper, it feels quite nice. But I am still not sure that would be the best option for spending $1300 on a queen set up. I see that from Arizona Premier company you can get 6 layers (his/hers sides) to play with for most custom fit at about the same price.

Well to be honest, I never really considered how “sick” it is to be a criteria. :lol:

From everyone I’ve discussed latex beds with, no one ever suggested that ~9" of latex wouldn’t be thick enough – but I guess we’ll see. I did make sure to get a 3" comfort layer, mainly because I’m a fairly big guy and a side sleeper as well. I’ve only just ordered mine, and don’t expect to see it for a good 4-5 weeks. I will most certainly report back once I can form a fair opinion of it.

Sorry I mixed up product info - I see what S0L0 ordered is not two sides adjustable kind and maybe only two layers - core and top, that would be similar to if I buy the 6" Eco Rest and add a soft topper.