Using Different Latex ILD's (Blended Talalay) For 6" Mattress Support Core

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
1

I would welcome DIY advice about creating a 6 inch latex core using two, 3 inch blended Talalay toppers. My preferred all-latex mattress height is 9 inches overall and am thinking about using three, 3 inch toppers for the build. I don’t want to go to a 12 inch height of all flat latex layers because plan to leave room possibly for a Flobeds shredded latex topper on down the line, if need be. From what I’ve read on this site, shredded latex toppers can further help with pressure points without sacrificing alignment.

I want a 36ILD firmness value in this mix but am hesitant to purchase a solid 6 inch core at 36ILD, thinking it might be too firm a base with just the remaining 3 inches reserved for the comfort layer. Fibro is an issue here, so pressure relief is just as important as proper alignment in this case.

Does it make sense to create the 6 inch core using a combination of 36ILD and 32 ILD, as 3 inch toppers respectively, and then add a 3 inch comfort layer in a 19 ILD? I would layer them according…36 on the bottom, 32 in the middle, and 19 on the top.

I came up with these numbers after I tested out various Pure Latex Bliss models at a local mattress store. Of all those tested, I REALLY liked the Nature, which is composed of a 6 inch core at 36ILD, a 2 inch middle layer at 28ILD, and a 2 inch top comfort layer at 21ILD. However, at 2700.00 dollars, it’s not going to happen. The Pamper was just too firm, and the Nutrition felt a bit too spongy. I’m basing the Nature numbers on a previous post that provided the different model component ILD’s.

Any advice or ideas are certainly welcome! I would purchase my latex toppers from mattresses.net. (I’m a lady of average height and weight–5’5" and under 135lbs.)

Thanks!

2

Hi mattressjunkie,

Welcome to the Mattress Forum! :slight_smile:

There’s certainly no reason that what you’ve described wouldn’t work. And the fact that you’re basing this off of an already tried configuration is one of my top tips for any DIY mattress plan. Additionally, splitting the bottom 6" core into two separate pieces does offer you the flexibility to customize comfort now and in the future, and also create a bit of a “softer” configuration as compared to the Nature that you tested locally.

Mattresses.net is a site member here, which means that I think highly of them and their componentry. The certainly can be a good source for latex DIY projects.

Unfortunately, there is no specific configuration or type of mattress that is “good for fibromyalgia” in general because each person is unique, and a mattress that works well for one person with a specific condition such as fibromyalgia may be completely unsuitable for someone else with the same conditions to sleep on. In very general terms, softer and more pressure relieving materials that provide a more “relaxed” sleeping surface will tend to work better than firmer materials because for most people with fibromyalgia or arthritis a softer more pressure relieving sleeping surface is a more important priority, but I know that this does vary with individuals, as well as varying day to day. Latex and wool have been popular combinations mentioned over time here on the forum, but again everyone is different. A combination like you’re considering (and perhaps the addition of the shredded latex topper) can “put you in the ballpark” for people with such unfortunate issues.

A forum search on fibromyalgia (you can just click the link) will also bring up more comments and feedback from others that are in similar circumstances that may be helpful (but it will also confirm that there isn’t a single “best” combination of materials that will work for everyone with fibromyalgia).

In the end, nothing can replace your own personal testing, especially with specific health considerations. You’d obviously want to consider something that allows for enough surface comfort while sleeping upon your side and back, and also assists with pressure point relief, while still overall being resilient enough and provide enough support while sleeping. Overall, the two basic functions of a mattress are to support and to provide comfort (you can read more about that here if you like), with alignment being the first priority and then comfort coming second.

I’ll be interested in learning of your progress.

Phoenix

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Hi Phoenix,

I so appreciate your reply to my questions! I’m still mulling over the “best” ILD stacks for the topper component mattress I have in mind. Do you think a 3 layer stack of 40, 28, and 19 (all 3 inches) would technically offer more firmness, due to the bottom layer being 40 ILD? This as opposed to 36, 32, and 19…

Since I can always soften a too firm feel with an additional softer layer of something else, I’m afraid of having a core that isn’t firm enough for the reproduction.

I tested the Nature again, by the way, and still quite like it.

I also isolated what is so appealing about the Nature. It’s all that great cushioning without the “ick” factor of too much sponginess. There’s not a ton of bounce, although you’d think there would be in an all-latex bed.

I neglected earlier to lay out the comical situation with my current, makeshift mattress. My bedding history is mainly with futon mattresses, with the last purchase being an Otis 6 inch, queen futon composed of 2 lb density, HD foam throughout. I’m unable to get an actual ILD rating.

Needless to say, it’s too hard a surface for me without the “help” of additional comfort layers. To soften it, I bought a 5lb density, 3 inch memory foam topper from Brooklyn Bedding’s sister website that sells just toppers. The cost was ridiculously low (considerably cheaper than quality Talalay latex). However, as you’ve confirmed, their bedding is high quality. I wanted to give it a try in terms of making my present components work before abandoning them altogether and shelling out bigger bucks for an all-latex configuration. Nothing ventured…nothing gained!

Unfortunately, this addition didn’t improve matters much–the memory foam topper didn’t provide the comfort relief like I thought it would. There was shoulder and back pain. Big time. While I was deciding what to do about it, as luck would have it, a relative gave me a Pure Latex Bliss, 2 inch twin topper in the plush 14 ILD rating, for daybed purposes.

In desperation, though, I layered it over my present configuration, on top of the memory foam, which is over the Otis futon. Wonder of wonders! The final result is one very comfy half of a bed. lol

I get plush cushioning with seemingly great support. My sleep is deep and satisfying, and there haven’t been any aches and pains from sleeping on this last arrangement.

However, it all makes for a very funky bed, as you can imagine…what with the twin Bliss topper over the two, queen size layers below, and sleeping on just one side of my bed. Ridiculous.

I could go ahead and purchase a queen, 14 ILD blended Talalay topper to replace and replicate the twin Bliss topper, but my underlying concern is longevity of materials. Otis makes fine futon bedding, as does BB, but latex is latex and has a much longer shelf life than polyfoam and memory foam.

Plus, I do so like the feel of all latex, as in the Pure Bliss Nature bed, but oh that price tag.
The cost of three, blended Talalay topper layers to make a 9 inch mattress is still considerably cheaper than the Nature bed. I’m just not sure in which direction to go here–whether to layer a queen, 2 inch latex topper over my current creation (to match the twin topper experience) or spring for the all-latex creation I have in mind, and be done with it all.

What do you suggest? Your insights are always welcome.

Thanks!

4

Hi mattressjunkie,

The largest difference in comfort would be felt in changes made to the uppermost layers, so the19/28/40 would be closer to the Nature than the 19/32/36, even though you’re using 3" layers instead of the 2" layers used in the Nature in the uppermost layers. Both configurations should provide enough support for someone of your BMI. The transition in the 19/28/40 between the 28/40 layers might be a bit noticeable, but as it’s deeper and you are lighter, this may not be as much of an issue. In the 19/32/36, you may notice a bit more of a difference in the 19/32 layer change as it is closer to your sleeping surface. But this is all speculation and I can’t predict how you might feel on such configurations.

Thanks for the interesting story on your current mattress set up. :wink:

[quote]Plus, I do so like the feel of all latex, as in the Pure Bliss Nature bed, but oh that price tag.
The cost of three, blended Talalay topper layers to make a 9 inch mattress is still considerably cheaper than the Nature bed. I’m just not sure in which direction to go here–whether to layer a queen, 2 inch latex topper over my current creation (to match the twin topper experience) or spring for the all-latex creation I have in mind, and be done with it all.[/quote]

I can’t choose which direction for you to go. You’ve already tested one configuration on the futon, and if you want to replicate that you certainly can. Latex over memory foam is a combination that may people enjoy, and you already have the advantage of having tested it in person. The all-latex would be a bit more of an unknown, which is always the case with any DIY-bedding process.

Phoenix

5

Hi Phoenix,

I decided to go with an all-latex component configuration and just placed an order with Ken at mattresses.net. The durability factor is what helped push me in that direction. Also, it’s amazing how competitive the latex prices are at his company, but what a comfort it is to know that he owns and runs a first-rate establishment.

I ordered a 6 inch blended Talalay core in 36ILD. For the toppers, I ordered two of his 2 inch Wavy toppers with the same 24 ILD. They can be seen on his website. There are “wave indentations”, for lack of a better description, on one side of the topper and a smooth surface on the other, so I can stack them on top of each other and play with how I position them relative to which backing I use. This will add options in terms of tweaking the overall feel of the mattress. He didn’t think I would lose anything to alignment by the use of these particular comfort layers, especially since the support base will be extra firm. I’ll report back when all is said and done.

Thanks.

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Hi mattressjunkie,

Congratulations on your new mattress purchase! You certainly chose something using better quality and durable materials, and as you know I think highly of Ken and mattresses.net (they are site members here).

I’m looking forward to your updates once you’ve had a chance to sleep upon your new mattress for a while.

Phoenix

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Hi Phoenix,

For my component pieces, I’m trying to decide on which mattress cover height to order. Now, the six inch support core will be a constant. It may turn out, however, that I don’t like either or both of the Wavy latex toppers that I’ve ordered. There is a 60 day comfort exchange either way.
For instance, if I like the feel of just one of the two inch toppers on top of the core and end up returning the other one, that would the leave the component height at eight inches instead of ten. Also, there is the possibility that I might need to experiment with other toppers of varying thicknesses. This means that my mattress height would be in flux if I end up experimenting with various layers. I certainly don’t want to leave the 6 inch base core outside a permanent cover, in the event that I choose to experiment with other toppers. Not sure how long it would take to get it “right”, assuming there would be a need to tinker in the first place.

I currently have a protective Luna encasement I would use for this purpose, but given the heaviness of a 6 inch latex core, it would be very hard to transfer it out of the encasement and into a cover; this also opens up the possibility of damage to both the core and the topper comfort pieces. I’d prefer the core to go directly into a permanent cover instead of the encasement. Plus, I have cats, and they can be destructo kitties and sometimes scratch at the corner of my current mattress setup. Fortunately, they can’t do any damage because it’s “out of harm’s way” from their claws given the ticking and sheets–need to make sure my new bedding will be equally protected as soon as the pieces are out of the box.

Plus, I’ll use an additional mattress cover that functions as another protective layer over both the “raw” (uncovered) topper layers and the covered core.
When I’ve decided on a permanent composition, I would then want to buy a separate cover to encase any and all toppers at their final height and simply lay them over the 6 inch core.

In terms of the actual mattress and topper covers, I’m trying to decide between the stretch cotton bamboo one at Latex Mattress Factory and the SleepEZ stretch zippered latex cover. Both covers put you right on top of the latex and have stretch. (I’m leaning toward the SleepEZ version). If the toppers and the core are covered separately, it would also be easy for me to flip the core periodically without having to remove any additional components. Same goes for the toppers if in a separate cover.

What is your opinion here? I know you’ve addressed this often, but if two good stretch covers are used for a stacked mattress and toppers, would anything really significant be lost in the feel of the componentry?

Thanks!

8

Hi mattressjunkie,

Your thought process certainly makes sense for flexibility or design and also for providing protection. It’s a solution that many people here on the forum have used in the past. By using extra covers you will have more fabric material than would normally be used in a mattress, and this can impact feel a bit, but a more flexible covering will help minimize that impact.

Phoenix

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Hi Phoenix,

I received my latex components on this past Friday. I noticed the box that contained the core had a label that showed as Talalux with a “W8”, X-firm designation. When I got the latex out of its plastic and onto the metal bed frame (Smartbase), I noticed that it was stamped as Vita Talalay and as made in the Netherlands. So, it’s Radium, which is fine with me.

The stamp showed “W8S”, however. I now know this indicates their blended Talalay product, which Vita Talalay places under the “Superior” heading. However, I found the Radium firmness chart on your site for the blended product that’s designated with an “S” value. Their natural latex firmness levels are indicated with an “N”.

I laid on just the core for awhile (this was before I even saw the chart) and could feel the metal of the bed frame underneath it.

The core has too much “give” or softness for my liking, certainly too much for the support core I want. I went ahead and layered the wavy toppers on top and felt something of a hammock effect. I removed one of the toppers and tried it with the just one wavy piece. Same thing. You can imagine my dismay when I saw the ratings on the ILD chart afterwards. S8 is listed at 33ILD with S9 showing as the firmest at 39. There is a plus or minus variation of 3 ILD. Technically, that could put my core at a 30 ILD. I specifically ordered a 36ILD off the retailer website. No one called me to tell me about the rating difference and to offer me a choice. I would never have chosen the S8 based on the chart. Why do you think a lesser ILD was shipped? I’m wondering if this is a common practice…

What is your opinion on this?

I want to swap out the core, of course, but the idea of having to get this large piece of latex shipped back to the retailer is disheartening and stressful. I’m hoping that the company won’t give me a problem with the exchange.

Thanks.

10

Hi matresjunkie,

As latex is quite point elastic, and depending upon your sensitivities (which for you are higher with fibromyalgia), and with the wider spacing between some of the metal bars/grid on the SmartBase, it can be common for some people to be able to “feel” the grid network, even with a “firmer” piece of latex.

ILDs are ranges, and not exact numbers, and the Radium S8 is listed as a range from approximately 30.5-36.5. The S9 has an approximate range of 36.8 – 42.8. Mattresses.net may be listing the ILD as the “maximum” in the range on their web site, but you should phone them on Monday with your concerns and thoughts about wanting a firmer core. But realize that even with a firmer core you may still “feel” the grid network of the metal platform bed base that you have, as the firm latex will still be quite point elastic.

Phoenix

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Hi Phoenix,

Mattresses.net has been very understanding and is offering me the option of exchanging my Radium core for the Global Talalay in a 36. I “firmly” believe my core is softer than what I know a 36 to feel like. Unfortunately, there is the trouble and expense of doing so.

Now, I did talk to KTT Enterprises about their products and was told by Mr. Coffey that he thinks the problem with my core could be loss of ILD due to the shrink wrapping process that latex is subject to for shipping purposes. In other words, it may have started out a 36 and softened because of the compression. I would have to shrink my core to get it back to mattresses.net, by the way and then receive a Global 36 sent shrink wrapped, as well.

I’m now leery of this shrinking business. Do you agree that shrink-wrapping can permanently affect ILD for talalay latex?

Mr. Coffey said his shipping prices are much higher because he doesn’t use the shrink-wrap process. A core would be sent boxed and wrapped without this method.

12

Hi mattressjunkie,

I’m glad that mattreses.net is being very accommodating to you.

I see what you did there with that pun. :lol: If you’ve had another product in the past using a 36 ILD Talalay core and this current core feels softer to you, I don’t know that it is due to any shipping methods, but could be due to the ILD range that we discussed previously actually being lower than 36, or comparing disparate brands/blends, or your memory of what the old core felt like. Regardless, in the end you’re desiring something that feels a bit firmer.

While I appreciate those thoughts and respect their knowledge at KTT, I personally don’t have a concern with the usual shipping method for latex and the amount of time it is normally compressed, based upon the conversations I’ve had with manufacturers using latex in their products for decades. But if compressed for extremely long periods of time, there certainly can be damage to any foam, even latex.

Yes, this would most definitely be the case, as shipping a product actual size would be more expensive than something that was rolled or compressed for shipment.

Phoenix

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I would like to know where you saw the Nature for $2700.00. I’ve been quoted 3300.00 for just the mattress.

Thanks

14

Hi ratchette,

I don’t think mattressjunkie ever mentioned what size they were looking at, but assuming it was a queen, and this was around the time when PTB had their Columbus Day promotion, the MSRP for a queen Nature was listed at $2699.00.

You also don’t mention in your post what size you are considering, but assuming again a queen, the current MSRP for the PTB in the Nature queen mattress is $2999.00. However, you will find that many PTB retailers will discount off of that price.

Phoenix

15

Thanks. We are looking for a King.

I have heard some discussion comparing the Nature and the Nutrition. What are your thoughts on the difference between these two mattresses?

16

Hi rrcapecod,

Thanks for the clarification on the size you are considering. For the Nature, the MSRP of the king is listed at $3899.00.

The Nutrition is what I term a “dominant layer” construction, using a bit of a firmer upper comfort layer atop a softer “transition layer”. Some people prefer this type of comfort for a bit of a firmer or “crisp” surface comfort. The Nutrition uses a 6" 36 ILD Talalay core, topped by 2" of 19 ILD Talalay and then the uppermost layer being a 3" 27 ILD Talalay layer. The Nature uses the same 6" 36 ILD Talalay core, topped by a 2" layer of 28 ILD Talalay and then the uppermost layer using 2" of 21 ILD Talalay.

Phoenix

17

Thanks so much making this clear. I have been spending a lot of time researching amd am now narrowing down to the Luma All Latex Slumber System and the Oso Sleep by Reverie. Both look good but the Luma is twice as expensive as the OSO. I’m guessing that the price difference is because the OSO uses only 1-1/2 inch of latex and the rest is foam. Do you think that the comfort would be similar?

18

Hi ratchette,

The OSO is mostly polyfoam (6" polyfoam core with 1.5" polyfoam on top - only 1.5" latex, also with a small area under the shoulder with DreamCells), where the Luma All-Latex Slumber System uses a total of 11" of latex (6" Dunlop core with 2" and 3" of Talalay above), so there certainly would be an expected difference in price, as latex is generally the most expensive foam to produce, and the Luma has much more of it.

Even with taking the specialized DreamCell section out of the equation, you’d expect there to be a quite different comfort between these two products because of the dissimilar materials used.

Phoenix

19

Hi Phoenix,

Thought I would let you know that I finally finished my DIY mattress project. Success! I’m very happy with my creation! Ken let me return the 6 inch Radium core to mattresses.net and swap it out for two, 3 inch toppers at 44 ILD each. Ken said that ILD is lowered a bit when a 6 inch core is split into two halves, even with Talalay. He related that his latex manufacturers have confirmed this and recommend going up in ILD to compensate for it. My two-part 44 ILD core probably “translates” into 40 ILD.
It’s firm and supportive, much more than the W8 Radium latex core, but also has just the right amount of give without being too bouncy or squishy. By the way, it feels far better than the Latex Bliss beds I tried out.
Here are the specs for my Queen bed–
Base core: two, 3 inch Talalay Global toppers, 44 ILD each. (Purchased from Ken at mattresses.net)
Comfort Transition layers: two, 2 inch Latexco latex wavy toppers at 24 ILD each. Wavy side faces up for each piece. This may be a Dunlop latex derivative, as the feel is more cushy than bouncy. (Also purchased from Ken)
Comfort Top layer: a 2 inch (approximately) convoluted, zoned Energex foam topper. (Purchased from Purasleep.com)
Purasleep gave me the Amazon price, as their topper is also featured there, but I preferred to buy it directly from Purasleep. I was surprised at how expensive Energex foam is overall, and it’s hard to find it as a DIY component, but this particular topper is a steal. Purasleep also sells solid 2 and 3 inch Energex toppers, but I wanted the zoned design. It’s surprisingly lightweight but still adds a unique feel and plushness to the bed, and all this from just 2 inches of convoluted foam!

I have my four latex layers stacked inside a heavy duty, stretchy Protect A Bed encasement. Now, the Energex topper is instead tucked inside an old cotton featherbed cover I had on hand and lays on top of the encasement. Topping off this configuration is the final layer of protection in the form of a simple mattress cover for extra waterproofing, etc.

I do have to give a shout-out to Ken Hightower at mattresses.net. He walks on water, as far as I’m concerned. His swap-out largesse with the Radium core situation and overall latex product and industry knowledge set him apart from the others. I would not buy latex products from anyone else.
So there you have it!

Thanks for all your help.

20

Hi Phoenix,
I want to add one last comfort layer to my DIY mattress, and I’ve settled on memory foam.
So, I’m trying to decide between 3 inches of Aerus Plus (5lb density) memory foam or the Confourm brand I’ve been researching (same density). The Confourm memory foam supposedly isn’t very sensitive to room temperature at large, which is a quality I’m looking for. It is CertiPUR foam, but do you know who manufactures it?
Also, I’ve asked the folks at Sleep Warehouse about the Aerus Plus “cold room” qualities but couldn’t get a clear answer. Can you address the temperature sensitivity of Aerus Plus? I’m now leaning in the direction of Confourm at The Comfort Outlet, on the basis of its non-temperature sensitive quality, assuming this advertised characteristic is true. Do you still recommend TCO as an online retailer? I tend to keep my room cool to cold at night for sleeping and use a down comforter for warmth. I’m trying to get an accurate picture of both brands’ characteristics before making my decision.

Thanks!