Vispring /hypnos / relyon - please help me, feeling desperate!

chamcham · August 7, 2024, 9:02pm

First of all, I would like to thank everyone in this forum as I’ve been reading a lot, as well as the beducation.

I am 29f, 5ft 3, 60kg and from the UK.

I suffer from back pain, mostly my upper back / shoulder blades, also neck pain, mostly on the left side. I always fall asleep on my side, but do sleep on my back too, though always on my side whenever I’m on my bed.

Unfortunately, I’ve been to several doctors and no one can diagnose what I really have for years, which is frustrating, but I do believe that the mattress and pillow have a huge factor with how I feel. When I was on holidays last month and having slept in a hotel, I woke up the next day and was surprised as to how I didn’t feel any discomfort in my back - nothing had changed, just where I slept on. To my luck, I didn’t even realise this so I didn’t even take a photo of what mattress it was.

I am currently using an ikea memory foam pillow, which I don’t even know if it’s unsuitable for me. Plus a mattress that had sagged and dipped just after a few weeks or months upon receipt. I’ve changed my mattress 3x in less than 10 years due to the sagging /dipping issue, so now I’m “traumatised” of what I should buy again as my current mattress was not expensive but neither cheap (£900). The comfort layer where I sleep has sagged terribly and doesn’t provide any support anymore.

I’ve been reading a loooot and have been going back and forth the bed stores I have nearby. First tried sealy, king koil, then discovered vispring, relyon, Harrison spinks, hypnos, and tempur.

Initially, I wanted a king koil as the price is quite cheaper than the sealy I initially wanted, but I’ve had memory foams for so many years and all dipped very quickly. I also get very hot whilst sleeping and end up waking up in the middle of the night - body + head, and it’s not comfortable at all.

Initially, I wanted Harrison spinks, but whenever I laid down on their mattress, I think I would feel more tension /pressure on my left shoulder blade and neck, so I somehow discarded them.

I liked the hypnos wool origins 10 too, but after trying out the bed for at least 15 minutes, I’ve realised the wool comfort layer is too thick for me (around 17kg of wool) , I’d sink too deeply and gave me discomfort.

So now I am choosing between the below:

Hypnos pillow top comfort peace (I think it’s also called as pillow top luxe) - Solotex™, up to two fleeces of British wool, Adaptiv™ comfort springs and a deep layer of Himalayan allo, kapok and cotton, atop a responsive layer of natural Talalay latex.

Relyon luxury silk 2850 - spring count of 2850 from the pocket springs in the heart of the mattress and mini pocket springs in the pillowtop that help distribute weight evenly, minimising pressure on the body and resulting in an undisturbed night’s sleep. Cashmere and silk elevate the levels of plush comfort

Vispring Devonshire

Vispring Dartingnon

Tempur

Vispring ones, as we all know, are really expensive. The reviews on trustpilot have put me off - are they still as durable as they were? Is it worth investing on them still? Am I gonna get dipping and sagging as well due to the natural fibres?

Hypnos also have bad reviews, so I’m wondering… Though this pillow top also has a layer of latex?

The same for relyon. It’s a much cheaper mattress, around 1k pounds, comparing to the hypnos and vispring models.

Also, I found an online retailer that could sell me the hypnos and vispring with huge discounts, but my guarantee on them would be voided as I live in Northern Ireland and they’re from mainland UK, and for some reason, as per their info, vispring & hypnos cannot proceed with the guarantee, unless bought from a retailer nearby - is it really worth it to have the 30 year guarantee from them? I know this is just a gimmick as explained on the articles,but I’m left wondering?

The retailers nearby I have are a bit clueless. They can’t even tell me how many inches the layers are etc. Just say they are all good, but vispring is the top for them.

Please note that I also am lost in terms of what pillow I should use - I think i might be allergic to down /feather? But maybe I haven’t tried it for a minimum of 10 minutes. I seemed not to like the feeling of down as it cradles too much on me and makes me feel suffocated? The same as latex ; I tried a dunlopillo one and was not a big fan. I somehow like the tempur cloud air pillow, but I wonder if it’s also hot like the one I have from ikea, or if it’s really the right one for me.

Sorry for the long post, hope you’ll be able to advise which one is best for me and the most durable one?

Thank you so much in advance.

phoenix · August 8, 2024, 10:54am

Hi chamcham,

Welcome to our Forum all the way from Northern Ireland!!

Thank you for sharing your stats and sleep history. It’s a pity you didn’t discover The Mattress Underground a decade ago when you first started your mattress quest. I’m sorry to hear about the pains you’ve experienced and the issues with dips and sagging in your previous mattresses. On the bright side, you didn’t spend too much on those three mattresses, and you’ve gained valuable experience along the way. It seems you’re better equipped for this search!

As you’ve observed, aside from Posture and Alignment, Pressure Relief, and Personal Preferences (PPP), the durability of a mattress is crucial. It’s something you can’t fully assess in a showroom or with a brand-new mattress. To assess durability, you’ll need to know the type and quality of materials inside and the specifics of its construction, regardless of the name of the manufacturer on the label.

In general, I’d start by finding out Mattress Specifications you need to know .for each mattress you are considering Compare these specs against the mattress durability guidelines here to make sure there are no lower-quality materials or potential weak links that might affect longevity. If a mattress doesn’t provide this information, it might be best to cross it off your list.

It sounds like you’re experiencing a classic case of “mattress sag and pillow mismatch.” Before we launched TMU, I suffered from severe lower back pain due to a national brand pillowtop mattress that had developed significant sagging over three years—sagging that wasn’t visible to the naked eye. Interestingly, the pain would subside as the day went on, which made me suspect the mattress was the culprit. This quest to find a solution for avoiding sagging mattresses was the driving force behind starting TMU.

In your situation, the pain and discomfort in your upper back, shoulders, and neck is likely due to a combination of a failing mattress and an unsuitable pillow. Before you invest in a new mattress, you might find relief by adjusting your current pillow.

A pillow that maintains neutral spinal alignment and doesn’t force your neck into an awkward lateral position (for side sleeping) could make a significant difference. You may want to consider a pillow with adjustable filling, like a shredded latex model with a zip cover, which allows you to customize the pillow’s height to better suit your needs. This flexibility also means you can tweak the height as you transition to a new mattress. A memory foam pillow can create allergic reactions in some people and are notorious for the temperature build-up and sinking-in issues you mentioned.

For side sleeping, factors such as your somatotype, muscle build, and arm positioning are crucial in choosing the right pillow. If you place your arm outward and flex your shoulder joint under your head, the pillow’s thickness and firmness might need adjustment. Similarly, if you tuck your hand under your cheek or adjust your arm’s position, this will affect your pillow needs. Pain in the upper back for back sleeping could be due to a pillow that’s too thick, causing your head to jut forward, much like the posture from hunching over a computer for too long.

Generally adjusting your pillow to better support your alignment can be a game-changer.

In terms of the mattresses on your finalists list.

“What” to choose in terms of either a mattress or the balance between comfort/pressure relief and support/alignment that may be suitable for a specific person is always up to the only person who can feel what you feel on a mattress and best left to personal testing and your own experiences or more detailed discussions with the more knowledgeable people at the retailers or manufacturers that sell a mattress you are considering.

This said, here is some food for thought that may help

The Relyon Luxury Silk 2850 has a much lower price point pocket springs mattress with a micro coil layer in the pillowtop. The mattress seems to be well constructed using good quality materials with no weak links or reasons for concerns for your normal BMI range, if you like the feel of the micro coil layer.

I haven’t tried a Relyon but I have Vispring fresh in my memory after testing several mattresses at the Las Vegas Market about a week ago.

Vispring certainly makes some exceptionally high-quality hand-built and tufted mattresses that use high-quality materials and components (pocket coils and natural fibers) but as you know they are in a much more premium budget range than many other mattresses that also use natural materials. There are certainly cases where a mattress in this budget range may be “worth it” for a particular person that isn’t price sensitive and that has specific criteria that aren’t available in lower budget ranges.

With that being said… I should also mention that the most knowledgeable people I have talked with about “super-premium” brands (including some who have worked at some of them or toured their factories) have always spoken highly of ViSpring and tend to rate them either among the best or often the best of the super-premium fiber/innerspring brands.

In many cases, innerspring/fiber mattresses are on the firm side, particularly as the fibers compress, but it’s unlikely that you’d develop “dipping and sagging” with ViSpring or Hypnos due to the natural fibers used in their mattresses. on two counts:

as you noticed with your memory foam temperature issues and possible allergies that may have developed due to the petroleum-based foams and chemical flame retardants that emit harmful off-gassing that are utilized in most lower-end mattresses. Truly organic and all-natural mattresses are free of these ingredients and have many other benefits such as being hypoallergenic, durable, and very comfortable (once you find the right comfort choice for you) Generally natural materials last longer than synthetic ones. Therefore, with a reputable mattress company you are looking at a long-term investment… the expected life span of an all-natural or organic mattress is ten years with the best brands offering 20-year warranties. The lower-end mattresses generally have a 6–8-year lifespan, no matter what their warranty terms would say (especially the small print) One other advantage of these types of materials is that they require very little if any maintenance at all. The vast majority of organic mattresses do not require you to flip or rotate them.

ViSpring is manufacturing their own mattresses in the UK and Vanadium pocket coil springs in their workshop in Plymouth. They have been around since 1901 and over time have developed a strong reputation of maintaining their production standards.

Both Vispring and Hypnos are very well made and don’t have any lower quality materials or weak links in their design so I would treat them as equivalent in terms of durability and I would choose between them based on which of the two your careful testing indicates would be the best “match” for your body type, sleeping positions, preferences and sensitivities and all the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.

JJPierson in Craigavon does carry the Devonshire and currently has a sale, but it does not seem to have the firmness customization options. John A Shannon in Kilkeel seems to offer customer premium support so you may want to call them and ask about firmness customization options and suitability for you.

It’s worth mentioning that Vispring Vanadium steel pocket coils come in about 75 distinct spring types/tensions and their staff is very skilled in being able to tailor the spring tension to fit the sleeper needs. Most of their vendors have sales consultants with sufficient knowledge and expertise to guide consumers. But you should be able to follow the weight guide advice from their website or contact them directly Email: [email protected] | Phone: +44 1752 366311 .

In the case of Vispring their Comfort Promise and 30 year Guarantee it’s well worth having. They stand behind their products and have well-defined policies. The same goes for the other super-premium manufacturers you mentioned. If you decide to go with Vispring, their warranty is important not necessarily because of possible durability issues but for their “comfort promise” if your comfort firmness selection is inadequate or for imperfections, defects in materials, or workmanship. From what I read on their site the Vispring “guarantee only applies to mattresses or/and divans, purchased from an authorized retailer and which remain in the country of purchase” If you buy the product from a retailer in Ireland you should be able to make a warranty claim or to use their comfort promise. I’d call each individual vendor and ask about it.

Hopefully the “feeling desperate” turns into a happy mattress hunting, so let us know if you need any more advice!

chamcham · August 9, 2024, 1:29am

Hi @phoenix

Thank you so so much for your long and detailed reply. I can’t express enough how grateful I am to this forum, and to you - the effort, the empathy, and kindness; it’s surreal. I wish everyone was like this

I had no idea that pillow is so important for sleep until I began searching and reading for my mattress hunt. My current ikea pillow, maybe, is too low for me and not supportive anymore, or even, inadequate for my needs. You’re definitely right, it’s the “pillow & matters sag” - inadequate pillow + sagging mattress " with no support overall. I want and need a new mattress and a new pillow urgently, but of course I’d rather" suffer " a few more weeks prior to spending and investing on new ones, to ensure my next buy will be totally worth it!

I’ve searched adjustable pillows where I have access, and found these (example):

The first one is wool, and simba seems pretty famous? I’m so picky (my neck and back are) with pillow and mattresses it’s so frustrating to find the most suitable one as it’s not like shopping for clothes; as you said, it cannot be assessed in store, only after a few nights or even weeks. I am yet to search for shredded latex, but do you think the 3 pillows above would be OK as they’re adjustable?

I’m liking the simba reviews, but I’m not sure if I’ll like the feeling of having cubes inside the pillow, if I’ll ever get to feel them.

I’ve tried down pillows & some latex pillows but they weren’t adjustable, and also, didn’t find them “too comfy”.

With regard to the mattresses… Thanks for confirming the relyon luxury silk seems well made. That’s the mattress I’ve tried the longest to date - I stayed on the bed for around 30 mins or even more, tried on a sprung base and a platform divan base. I preferred the sprung base more (it was coil sprung) as I think provided more cushion/softness/responsiveness. I am just a bit wary when I’m on my back, it seems really supportive but I didn’t fall in love with it? But it’s not too bad. I found it more comfortable than harrison spinks, no idea why.

I need to try the hypnos pillow top & the vispring Devonshire and Dartington longer. I was considering vispring herald superb the most in vispring due to the horse hair (being more durable?) but seemed too firm for me? I’m over thinking I’m going to get too soft or too firm for my back, but for vispring, those 3 are my choices, oh, and also Elite, but I’ve read here that for the entry level, it might be worth investing on another mattress rather than the vispring entry level?

I need to stay longer on the vispring too, and I’ll even bring my pillow just to compare the differences between my current mattress and the other ones.

Vispring Devonshire & Dartington only have wool & cotton on them, would they compress faster than herald superb, which has horsehair in it? Or is it just the same, since they are made by vispring?

Also, is a coil sprung divan too different from a pocketed divan? I’ve read that the springs sometimes give in, affecting the mattress itself and the comfort.

I will try the hypnos pillow top & vispring again ; vispring recommend the mattress + divan set, but their divan is so expensive too as they contain fibres underneath as well… I wonder if I could get their set too, or a sprung divan base from another brand would suffice.

I will contact vispring as well to request their opinion. Beds 4 uzzz quoted me the best for vispring, but they’re in London too, and as per their info, hypnos and vispring void the warranty of 30 years if I’ll ever need them, unless I get it from a retailer nearby. I am tempted to save up, but it’s so risky not to be able to complain if I took the risk.

JJ Pierson, I’ve actually gone to their store and his first recommendation for me was a Carpe Diem bed, which is also costly @ £3,500. He recommended me this one and not vispring.

The bed, I believe, is this:

It’s like an innovative box spring + latex topper? I wonder if this is any good. Tried to search but no enough reviews… But I’ll try it again. Also, JJ Pierson has the best prices for vispring, but seems not to have the comfort guarantee to switch to a different tension. I do have another retailer here, but I’d pay around £300 more.

There are some natural mattress manufacturers I’ve found online, but they’re in London, so I can’t try them prior. Also, I wouldn’t be able to avail of their comfort switch, or I’d probably pay around £200 for for returns shipping, just in case :

https://www.buttonandsprung.com/pocket-sprung-mattresses/super-king-size-mattresses

(recommended me the Chester or Monmouth)

Once again, thank you so much for your reply, and sorry for so many questions as I still feel lost with this hunt!

PS. May I ask which mattress & pillow you’re sleeping on?

Regards

@phoenix

phoenix · August 12, 2024, 4:14am

Hi chamcham,

Thank you so much for your kind words—I truly appreciate them. It means a lot to know that the time and effort we put into this website are making a difference by providing clear and trustworthy information amidst all the marketing noise.

Again, selecting a pillow is similar to choosing a mattress; it involves considering multiple variables, personal preferences, and individual needs. As a result, providing specific recommendations for others can be difficult. There is no universally “best” pillow for any situation or symptom, as the primary function of a pillow is to maintain proper alignment of the head and neck across different sleeping positions. The effectiveness of a pillow in achieving this alignment can vary greatly from person to person and may also depend on the type of mattress used. Therefore, a pillow that helps one individual with upper back, shoulder, or neck issues may not work as well for someone else with similar concerns.

I have no experience with either of the pillows you are considering so I can offer some commentary and thoughts that come to mind by looking at the materials involved in constructing it.

When it comes to “famousness” and reviews, it’s essential to approach them with caution. Other people’s experiences often won’t accurately reflect the suitability, quality, durability, or value of a pillow for your specific needs. Many review sites are more focused on generating revenue through affiliate programs or paid advertising than providing unbiased information.

Review data is often based on short-term experiences from individuals who may not be qualified to evaluate the product fully. Additionally, these reviews are frequently repurposed as part of a marketing strategy, with negative feedback sometimes being filtered out on company websites. This creates a skewed representation of the product’s performance.

The “reviews-based” sales approach can be misleading, with companies investing heavily in marketing rather than in product quality. This leads to emotional purchasing decisions and contributes to a lack of transparency in the industry.

At TMU, our goal isn’t to push for more expensive or higher-quality pillows but to help consumers measure value objectively. Identifying reliable sources where the likelihood of finding a better value is higher is key. For instance, a lower-priced pillow made from safe materials might serve someone well for a few years and represent good value, while another person with different needs might require something entirely different to avoid discomfort or worsening symptoms.

King-Sized Wool Pillow

Material: 100% British wool is an excellent choice for a pillow. Wool is one of the best natural materials for temperature regulation and is typically cleaned and carded using chemical-free agents. This makes it a great option for those seeking a natural, breathable, and hypoallergenic pillow.

Simba pillow…

Adjustability: The height and firmness adjustability feature is appealing, but there may be limitations. It appears that the height and firmness adjustments are made by adding or removing cubes rather than altering the density of the cubes. This could make achieving a high profile with soft firmness challenging.
Air Circulation: The mesh border designed for air circulation is a nice touch, allowing air to flow in and out as you move, much like an accordion the issue I can see here is that you need to move to get that air circulation going as the cubes are squished under your head and the ventilation greatly impaired.
Material Concerns: The cubes are made from memory foam, which is known for trapping heat and altering firmness as the temperature rises. This means that the pillow’s height and firmness could change as heat builds up during the night. Additionally, I don’t see any certifications for the foam used, which is concerning, especially given that the pillow is used so close to your face. Over time, low-density memory foam cubes may break down and become misshapen.
Company Trust: I am hesitant to fully trust a company that has altered the specifications of their pillows, as seen with the Simba Stratos Pillow. This raises questions about consistency and reliability. Amazon.co.uk:Customer reviews: Simba Stratos® Pillow 50 x 75cm - Supportive & Cooling
Synthetic Materials: Along with the memory foam cubes, Simba Renew Bio fibers, made from recycled plastic and marketed as biodegradable under certain conditions, are intriguing. However, I remain skeptical of such alternative and synthetic materials in general. Many people buy natural mattresses to avoid allergies and VOC emissions, yet they may opt for pillows made from synthetic materials. It’s important to approach these claims with caution. Marketing can often be misleading, with fake reviews, misinformation, and social media campaigns playing on herd psychology.

If you are looking for an adjustable nontoxic pillow, I’d feel more comfortable getting something like OYEB Hull pillow here of one of the manufacturer contributors @OYEB. But again the choice of material for a pillow is a highly personal choice. E.g I sleep on the Pure Performance LaNoodle Pillow latex pillow from Cozy pure. I am a side and back sleeper and removing some “noodles” from the pillow hit just the right spot for me, making it great for both sleeping positions. (BTW … I do not like high-profile pillows)

Regarding biodegradability, I believe it may be overstated, as the fiber material is still PET. For some perspective on bioplastics, I recommend checking out this EuroPlas article titled “No, PET is a non-biodegradable polymer” and the Yale Environment360 article on why the bioplastics can’t solve the World’s Plastics Problem.

A shop visit and mattress testing is very informative but … with any new mattress there will be what I call a “period of retrogression”, where the mattress will adjust to you and you’ll adjust to your mattress. There may also be a certain amount of “false firmness” with any new mattress, and this will gradually soften just a bit as everything “breaks in”. The cover stretches and loosens a little (even for hand-tufted mattresses) and the materials settle and your body gets used to a sleeping surface that is different from what it is used to (see post #3 here and post #2 here). This would typically be a few weeks but it can be shorter or longer depending on the specifics of the person and the mattress (higher-density materials can take longer) and it can be surprising to many people how much their sleeping experience can change over the course of the first month or so.*

I agree with your plan to go back, retest, and compare how your body perceives the mattresses on a second try and follow-up with finding more info.

Lilla Harpö mattress recommended by JJ Pierson is a memory foam mattress of unknown density. (JJ’s customer support didn’t strike me as reliable, especially with not offering the customization options)

Vispring

It is well-worth having the piece of mind that if things do not go as well as you have hoped for you still have options, especially the comfort guarantee and specialist guidance.

CarpeDiem Pocket Spring System + Prestige topper does not seem to have any customization options which more caters to the idea of one size fits all that does not take into account personal needs and preferences.

Since I changed the bed size two years ago, I sleep on a @SleepEZ (9”) - 3 layers latex mattress in an organic 360 zippered cover (configured as Firm Dunlop – Medium Talalay - Medium Dunlop). I Previously owned a @The Mattress Factory which is still in good shape but made its way into the guest bedroom.

To wrap things up, remember that selecting the right mattress—and the right pillow—is all about understanding your personal needs and preferences. Don’t be swayed by marketing or reviews alone—focus on understanding the materials and how they align with your personal needs. With a bit of research and careful consideration, you can find a mattress and a pillow that is not only supportive but comfortable and good for your overall well-being.

Phoenix

chamcham · August 30, 2024, 10:58pm

Hi @phoenix

It’s me again. I’ve been searching and trying out mattresses over a month now; though there are some improvements and more knowledge of what I want, I still feel a bit lost - maybe I’m the most undecisive person to buy a mattress, but never thought this would be this hard! My current mattress, I literally sat and laid on it for around 5 minutes and bought it - probably the reason why I am now “traumatised”

So, basically, I went again to try the Relyon Luxry Silk 2850 as it was the one I found the most comfortable. I believe it feels nicer when I’m on my side since it’s a soft-medium, it’s ok too when I’m on my back, but I feel something is missing when I’m on my back, maybe because the pillow top could have further 2cm of thickness? It’s like I feel the comfort layers + microcoils too much when on my back?

The mattress is sitting on a coil sprung divan, also tried on a platform once and noticed a loooot of difference between both bases. I really wanted to buy this one, but I am put off due to it being one-sided pillow top - it mentions it has silk & wool, but doesn’t provide the total GSM, so lack of transparency of how it’s made. The mattress + the divan is £1,940, which my bank account really likes.

I then began communicating more with the founder of Abacca Organics - she even sent me examples of the products (wool, latex, coir) they use to see if I’m allergic to any. However, they cannot provide horsehair as of now, and don’t know when they can, so I am left two options from them - snowdon & chester. What I notice different on their mattresses is, they cover the side with the natural fillings unlike other companies e.g vispring, where the layers sit only on top of the pocket sprung. Their mattresses do not have side stitching like in Vispring. Also, she said it is irrelevant whether to have a sprung divan base or platform base with their mattresses.

She recommended me a medium tension.

Abacca Organics choices:

Snowdon - £2, 245 for 6ft super king

https://www.abacaorganic.co.uk/products/snowdon

Chester - £3, 355 for 6ft super king

https://www.abacaorganic.co.uk/products/chester

I have tried contacting John & Ryan, but I didn’t like their sales and was expecting more. They also do not offer any shipping to Northern Ireland, and would need to organise the delivery myself.

I then found Winstons Beds, to whom I’ve been speaking the last couple of days. I’ve gone to several retailers, also called Vispring directly, and their explanation was the best. The sales explained me how the fibbers work, microcoils, etc. They stated that they used microcoils prior (best ones from Harrison Spinks), but they are really bad as support layers, so they don’t use them anymore. They only sell online, which worries me a bit, as I cannot try their mattresses beforehand. The positive point is, they have 100-days exchange, but I would need to pay 145 for the delivery charge just in case. I also liked the approach; when I first called and explained my body type, weight, back pain, they first recommended me the Ancoats mattress, which is, I believe, one of their mid offerings(lower ones). I then asked for another option, and was advised the Heritage - both are Medium-Soft. Lastly, they include butterfly clips on the edge, which I prefer. I don’t like the too soft edge Vispring mattresses have as I feel I’m about to roll off the floor.

The recommended mattresses from Wintons Beds:

Ancoats - £1,899 6ft super king

https://winstonsbeds.com/product/the-ancoats/

Comfort Layers

English Lambswool, British Fleece Wool & Cotton

Support Layers

British Highland Wool, Organic Flax

The Heritage - £4,500 6ft super king

https://winstonsbeds.com/product/the-heritage/

Topper Comfort Layers - English Lambswool, Hand Teased Shropshire Wool, Hand Teased Alpaca Wool

Topper Support Layers - British Highland Wool

Mattress Comfort Layers - English lambswool, Hand teased Silk, English Wool & Cotton, British Fleece Wool & Cotton, Hand Teased Shropshire Wool

Mattress Support Layers - Hand Teased Long Curled Horsetail, British Highland Wool & Natural Hessian

## I am thinking, maybe, since the Ancoats is cheaper than The Heritage, I could try it and if I feel I need more plush, could get the Heritage pillow top afterwards? Though the fillings on the main Heritage mattress is quite different too - would this be a good idea? ##

Winstons Beds Pillow Tops

Winstons Shallow Pocket Sprung Divan

Questions about WInstons Beds:

1 - I also need a base. Winstons beds are adamant I would benefit from sprung base (theirs have coir + wool and cotton layers on them), and I do believe them, however I’m taking it with a grain of salt because obviously, they also want to sell. I was explained the differences between a pocket sprung and a platform base - is it really required? For example, I preferred a sprung base on the Relyon Luxury Silk, but when I tried Hypnos wool origins 10, I felt sinking in too much and didn’t like it; I think I would have preferred a platform base instead. Is it true I would receive more support having a pocketed sprung divan?

2 - The heritage has 10,600 GSM, and the Ancoats 4000 GSM - is the Heritage a good purchase value as it is really expensive if paired with their divan + headboard set? If I were to buy the mattress + a normal ottoman platform divan, it would be much cheaper.

3 - Is it true that microcoils are bad?

4 - Winstons do not show how the layers are made - Vispring show a literal photo of what’s inside (e.g needled) - does this matter in terms of comfort and durability? Not sure if Winstons only have a compressed layer.

5 - There are several brands who offer natural fibres mattresses - since they are all natural fibers, can a specific company have a better fibber/quality of filling? Is it like buying our clothes, some stores will have a better fabric/stitching quality than others, or since they are all natural fibbers, it is mostly the same?

Ps. They claim it is a bit irrelevant to try a mattress in store as we can’t ensure one is right for us within just 30 mins, and that the display model has been tried by a lot of people, with different weights, and have been broken in, and what I would receive at home could be somehow different because it would be just my body adapting to it.

I am still considering Vispring - mostly devonshire & dartington. There’s also their bedstead offers, but I don’t know where I can try them out. I would like Herald Superb due to the horsehair as I’ve read it supports the soft comfort layers, but I think it’s a bit too firm for me.
Their mattresses, compared to WInstons, carry less GSM, but are more expensive - would WInstons be a better buy? Should I only consider the GSM quantity? Winstons use calico pocket springs as well, but I don’t know if Winston’s springs and Vispring’s differ from each other, or how is their construction. There are a lot of bad reviews from Vispring which are putting me off. Abaca Organics had told me their mattresses used to be the top of the line years ago, but today, the quality mattress falls into the 20k category.

I am still considering two Hypnos mattresses:

Hypnos Wool Origins 8

https://www.hypnosbeds.com/uk/collections/wool/wool-origins-8

Hypnos Pillow Top Luxe

https://www.hypnosbeds.com/uk/collections/pillow-top/pillow-top-luxe

Once again, I am hesitating on the pillow top as it is one sided. I spend a looot of time in my bed, so I need a durable one.

Sorry for such a long post, but I have finally managed to shortlist, I mean, with Vispring, I am still clueless, but I think this is also the retailer’s fault since they aren’t offering enough assistance, neither did Vispring when I contacted them.

It is hurting me to spend around 5k or 6k on a mattress and bed frame, but I also know I need it for my health, perhaps, really hoping it can help me. I know it won’t take away my discomfort or pain, but it would help.

My last questions are:

Which of these do you think offer a better value in terms of GSM & construction (Abacca, Winstons, Vispring, Hypnos? I think I am leaning more towards the Winstons mattresses, but together with their divan set, it is really expensive.
I am contemplating more on this due to the difference between the mattress price & the mattress + divan set - is it really required for me to get a sprung divan? Does it really offer more support? Should I follow the manufacturer’s advice? It would be much easier for me if I could put it on a platform as it would be much cheaper.
Does a headboard need attached via bolts to the divan? The mattress + sprung base + headboard from WInston are supeeer expensive, and I was thinking of just buying their mattress + divan, then get a cheaper headboard somewhere else - it will lean against the divan and a wall, is it going to feel wonky? My mattress is currently on the floor and still have my headboard; it is leaning against the mattress & wall and it’s not too bad, though it is winged, so maybe that’s why it feels more sturdy?
- To be honest, I am almost sure I am leaning towards Winstons beds - in terms of Customer Service, assistance, information, and explanation, I really cannot fault them; their customer care might be the best one I have ever received in my life (online). Their mattresses seem well constructed too, with good materials, but I would love to know if I really need to pair with their divan - what’s your thoughts on them? Oh, they also trade within the US as far as I know.

Lastly, as for the pillow, I am deciding on an adjustable one as you mentioned:

This is a really long message, and I know you’re all busy, but I would really appreciate if you could help me find my mattress as I really need one urgently

Thank you once again!

phoenix · August 31, 2024, 12:33am

Hi chamcham!

It’s fantastic to hear that you’re making strides in your mattress quest—sounds like you’re really cracking the code! Honestly, you’re probably ahead of a lot of mattress salespeople out there.

I love that you included photos; they’ll definitely help. I’m currently tangled up in a backend project for TMU, so it might take me a couple of days to dig into the details and get back to you. Meanwhile, I’m looping in some of our Trusted Mattress Experts who might have valuable insights.

@Maverick @TheCleanBedroom @EngineeredSleep, who’s got hands-on experience with micro coils and is familiar with the (14.5") DUO Lift ~ Microcoil, Wool & Cotton.

I’ll be in touch as soon as I make some headway. Thanks for your patience!
Phoenix

TheCleanBedroom · August 31, 2024, 12:48am

Hi chamcham,
We sell a fair amount of Vispring mattresses. Because we are in the USA, the models do not always overlap, but we do have the Devonshire. You had asked if the wool and the cotton would tamp down. Certainly having a mattress with horsetail/horsehair in it would add some resilience, but there are a lot of things you can do with a Vispring or really any mattress in order to eliminate that issue.

To prevent sagging in a Vispring mattress, follow these best practices:

Rotate and Flip the Mattress Regularly: Vispring mattresses are designed to be flipped and rotated periodically. Flip and rotate your mattress once every two weeks during the first three months. After that, rotate it with the seasons, about four times a year. This ensures even wear and prevents sagging in specific areas. Vispring mattresses are equipped with sturdy handles to make this process easier for you.
Use a Proper Bed Base: Ensure your mattress is placed on a supportive base. A Vispring mattress should ideally be paired with a Vispring divan or a firm, slatted base with slats no more than 3 inches apart. An improper or unsupportive base can lead to uneven wear and sagging.
Ensure Even Weight Distribution: Avoid sitting or sleeping in the same spot consistently. Spread your body weight evenly over the mattress surface to avoid compressing the springs in a specific area.
Keep the Mattress Dry and Well-Ventilated: Moisture can compromise the integrity of mattress materials over time. Use a mattress protector to safeguard against spills and humidity. Make sure your mattress gets adequate ventilation by occasionally airing it out.
Avoid Excessive Weight and Pressure: Avoid placing heavy objects on the mattress or jumping on it, as this can damage the springs and cause sagging.
Check the Mattress for Damage Regularly: Inspect your mattress periodically for any signs of sagging, damage, or wear. Address any concerns promptly to prolong its lifespan.

I believe Vispring sends technicians out if a tuft comes undone. So inspecting your mattress can be helpful to its longevity.

By following these steps, you can help maintain the shape and comfort of your Vispring mattress (or any mattress) for many years.

With microcoils, it depends on what they are made of and how many there are. They can be a good option for someone who doesn’t want latex for cushioning.

A sprung divan can make a difference in how your mattress feels, as well as its longevity. Here are some things to think about:

1. Enhanced Mattress Support

A divan base provides a solid, sturdy foundation for the mattress, helping to distribute weight evenly and reduce pressure points. This support helps maintain the mattress’s shape, preventing sagging and extending its lifespan.

2. Improved Comfort and Sleep Quality

The added support from a divan base enhances the overall comfort of your mattress, ensuring better spinal alignment and minimizing disturbances from movement. This can lead to improved sleep quality and reduced discomfort, especially for those with back pain.

3. Customizable Firmness

Divan bases come in various styles, such as sprung or solid. A sprung divan base has a built-in layer of springs, adding a softer, more cushioned feel to your mattress. In contrast, a solid divan base provides a firmer feel, allowing you to choose the level of support and comfort that best suits your needs.

4. Added Storage Space

Many divan bases come with built-in storage drawers or compartments, making them ideal for smaller bedrooms or those needing extra storage. This hidden storage space can be used for bedding, pillows, clothes, or other items, helping to keep your bedroom organized and clutter-free.

5. Versatile Aesthetic Options

Divans are available in a wide range of styles, fabrics, and colors, allowing you to customize the look to match your bedroom decor. The fabric-covered base also gives a softer, more upholstered appearance, which can add a touch of elegance and refinement to the room.

6. Easy to Move and Assemble

Divans typically come in two or more parts that are easy to assemble and move. They are often easier to handle than larger, solid bed frames, making them a convenient option for those who need to relocate or rearrange their furniture.

7. Suitable for All Mattress Types

A divan base is compatible with all types of mattresses, including pocket spring, latex, and hybrid mattresses. This versatility makes it a flexible option for any bedroom.

8. Noise Reduction

Divan bases are generally quieter than slatted bed frames because they have fewer moving parts. This can reduce creaking or noise from movement, contributing to a more peaceful sleep environment.

9. Longer Mattress Life

By providing consistent and even support, a divan can help prolong the life of your mattress, ensuring that it wears evenly and remains comfortable for longer.

10. Improved Hygiene

The close-fitting design of a divan base helps to reduce the buildup of dust and allergens beneath the bed, promoting a cleaner and healthier sleeping environment.

Using a divan base with your mattress can enhance comfort, extend mattress longevity, offer practical storage solutions, and provide a stylish addition to your bedroom.

I hope that all of this helps you in your decision!

chamcham · September 4, 2024, 1:06am

Hi @phoenix

Hope everything goes well with your project, and hope you’re doing well too!

I am super excited to hear back from you and your very detailed explanation on everything. I always get amazed with how you pour your heart in every detail you write

And thank you for noticing my knowledge about mattresses , though I don’t think it’s still enough for what I need, even though I think I’ve read and watched everything on the Internet + videos and reviews

What a difficult decision choosing a mattress is, like choosing a spouse!

Regards,

chamcham · September 4, 2024, 1:15am

Hi @TheCleanBedroom

Thanks for your input!

Vispring are considered one of the best, also previously advised by @phoenix herself.

In fact, not everyone can be pleased with everything, so I somehow do understand the negative reviews of Vispring; I’m just curious though - mattresses made with natural fibers will compress, as well as the other mattresses, but has Vispring’s quality /construction plummeted, comparing to what they were many years ago?

Knowing that a mattress will withstand if horse hair /tail layers are included, does this mean I should discard the ones without them e.g. Devonshire & dartington as their support layers are also soft? Though Vispring are transparent on the "bonded / blended layers.

Lastly… Do sprung divans offer more support for those who suffer with back pain? Or the feel of a sprung divan VS platform is more of a personal choice? Does it really help the mattress itself be more durable as the entire weight is not put directly onto the divan?

Thanks!

TheCleanBedroom · September 4, 2024, 1:32am

I think the feel of a sprung divan, like the feel of a mattress is personal. Some things that you may want to consider:

Optimized Support: ViSpring designs its divans and mattresses to work together, ensuring the best support and comfort. The divans are constructed to complement the specific spring systems and materials in the mattresses, providing a foundation that enhances the mattress’s performance.
Durability and Longevity: A ViSpring divan can help extend the life of your ViSpring mattress. The divan offers a solid and well-engineered base that prevents sagging and uneven wear over time, maintaining the mattress’s structural integrity.
Warranty and Guarantee: Using a ViSpring divan with a ViSpring mattress may ensure that you are fully covered by the brand’s warranty or guarantee. Mixing different brands might impact the validity of these assurances.

While it’s possible to use a ViSpring mattress with a different divan, pairing both from ViSpring is ideal for achieving the full range of benefits in terms of support, comfort, and style.

In terms of natural fibers compressing, that can be lessened by rotating and flipping the mattress regularly and using a mattress topper. We have worked with Vispring for 6 years and have not seen quality dip. The techniques used to construct the mattresses are handed down, so I would think it would be similar.

With good care, natural wool should be resilient. Of course, adding horsetail or other fibers will affect the ‘springiness’ of the mattress. If you can upgrade, during a sale which may bring a mattress into your price range, by all means do so. But we do sell a number of the Devonshire mattress; people do seem to be happy with them. However…just be aware that natural fibers need a little more care in terms of turning and flipping the mattress regularly. And a topper is always helpful in reducing wear as well.

phoenix · September 5, 2024, 5:49am

Hi chamcham!

Thank you again for your patience and thanks @TheCleanBedroom for weighing in with all the “good-to-know” info about ViSpring and the Sprung Divan.

Oh well… welcome to the club! In my younger days, I didn’t give much thought to what I slept on—until the day of reckoning when, out of nowhere, my back was in shambles. I did notice you’re a bit on the cautious side, but in my opinion, that’s a good thing—just as long as it doesn’t lead to analysis paralysis!

Being a combo sleeper and shifting positions during the night can is like walking a fine line. When choosing any sleep system, I’d make sure it suits your primary sleeping position first, then making small adjustments to accommodate the others as closely as possible. In your case, ensure it feels both supportive and comfortable for side sleeping. This might require some trial and error. Also, you’ve mentioned feeling the microcoils in the comfort layer, adding another comfort layer might seem like an obvious fix, but it could end up being counterproductive since you can’t really make a soft mattress firmer by adding a firmer topper.

…

A sprung divan base includes a spring unit for a softer, cushioned feel, while a platform top divan base has a solid wood top, offering a firmer sleep surface. Sprung bases are considered higher-end, whereas platform tops are more affordable.

As you already noticed when testing Relyon Luxry Silk 2850 on two different bases. What is under the mattress makes “a loooot of difference”. So …choosing a base depends on the support you need. As @TheCleanBedroom mentioned, sprung divan bases provide a softer surface and enhance mattress longevity by relieving pressure on its springs, making them a more durable option. Depending of the mattress support core and firmness level, either could work but only you can assess if it fits your particular comfort needs.

Here are my thoughts on the two new mattresses you’re considering. While I’m not familiar with either brand, I’ve reviewed the specs provided by Abaca and have a few points for consideration:

Snowdon – £2,245 for a 6ft super king

Thickness: 20 cm (approx. 8”)
Type: Hybrid Pocket-coil with organic wool and a perimeter edge
Layers:
- Organic cotton cover
- 500 gm/m² organic wool wrap
- 500 gm/m² organic wool pad
- 100 gm/m² thinner organic wool batting
- 1100 GSM one side total (see note below on GSM*)
Spring Unit: 6” pocket springs by Leggett & Platt (good quality)

The mattress has three layers of wool wrapped around the entire pocket coil unit. At your BMI, the 8” thickness should be adequate, but regular flipping and rotating, as per manufacturer instructions, will be necessary to minimize compression over time. The tufting will help pre-compress the mattress, but wool compression may still occur.

Consideration: If you sleep with a partner who has different needs, the thickness and wool composition may require additional thought.

Chester – £3,355 for a 6ft super king

Thickness: 25 cm (approx. 10”)
Type: Hybrid Pocket-coil with organic wool, latex, and a perimeter edge
Components: Same as the Snowdon, but with an additional two 3 cm (1.2”) layers of latex on the top and bottom

The advantage of this option may be more suitable for couples with different sleep preferences, as the added latex provides better weight distribution, is more lively, and can accommodate partners with slightly different needs and weights.

Overall Considerations:
Both mattresses appear to be of good quality based on the specs provided. However, the 2" 1100 GSM wool layers could be a potential weak point, as they may compress too much over time, especially for softer fibers.

Lastly, Abaca’s firmness recommendations seem somewhat simplistic, so I would suggest trying out in person the available comfort options before making a purchase.

Yep I’d tend to leave Ryan & John behind since I don’t see them servicing the consumer if something goes wrong along the way

Ancoats – £1,899 for a 6ft super king

Thickness: 30 cm (approx. 12”)
Type: Double-sided Hybrid Pocket Spring with wool
Craftsmanship: Handcrafted

Winston Beds has a spring tension chart based on weight and sleeping position, which in your case would suggest a soft spring tension for support. Keep in mind, though, that spring tension impacts support, not the overall comfort of the mattress.

Materials: Natural and temperature-regulating (English Lambswool, British Fleece Wool & Cotton, British Highland Wool, Organic Flax), designed to keep you warm in cold temperatures and cool in hot ones.
GSM: 4,000 combined GSM for both sides (see note below*) indicates good quality and should retain its shape over time without sagging or indentation.
Calico Springs: Individually encased in cotton and sprung together, connected without glue, good motion isolation for partner sleeping.
- For more insight on how these are made, you can watch this video: YouTube link
Butterfly Clips: Added for stability, helping to prevent roll-off.
100-Night Trial: The trial period with free collection gives you peace of mind if the mattress doesn’t meet your expectations.

Overall, the Ancoats is a good option, provided that it fits your needs and you get the correct comfort level for your side-sleeping position. The price point, use of quality materials, and post-purchase options make it an attractive choice.

The Heritage – £4,500 for a 6ft super king

Thickness: 44 cm (approx. 17.5”)
Type: Detachable pillow top with flag-stitched handles
Materials: Quite a luxurious blend that includes English Lambswool, British Fleece Wool & Cotton, Hand-Teased Shropshire Wool, Alpaca Wool, Hand-Teased Loose Long Curled Horsetail, and more.
GSM: 10,600 GSM combined both sides rating, (5,300 each side, but remember that this mattress is also 14 cm taller) promises excellent durability and typically will maintain its shape without sagging much better than lower GSM mattresses. However, at your BMI, a 44 cm thickness may not be necessary unless you prefer a higher bed height.

Note*
North American MUGsters should note that GSM (grams per square meter) is a key quality indicator for mattresses in Europe. It reflects the density of the filling—higher GSM for the same layer thickness for wools and natural fillings means more durability and less compression/settlement of the material. Higher GSM total from all layers means thicker, more luxurious comfort. Mattresses with soft and lower GSM fillings, like wool or alpaca, should be rotated regularly to prevent uneven settlement and extend their lifespan.

Good thinking! Just remember that you can also twitch the overall feel from the base you’ll be using. So I’d put that on the back burner until you decide on the base.

Do you have the option to test the mattress and base combination? This would be the most reliable way to determine what works best for you, as personal comfort is key, and only you can truly feel the difference. Testing it firsthand will give you the final answer.

To be continued…

TheCleanBedroom · September 5, 2024, 11:29pm

Regarding your question about the necessity of a sprung divan, here are some key differences between putting a mattress on a divan as opposed to a platform bed:

Firmness: A mattress on a sprung divan feels softer, while on a platform bed, it feels firmer.
Bounce and Flexibility: More bounce and flexibility on a sprung divan compared to a more stable, less flexible feel on a platform.
Impact on Mattress: A platform may provide better long-term support, but a sprung divan may add comfort and reduce wear on the mattress.

michaelw1963 · October 18, 2024, 12:39am

Hi chamcham

I went through this when me and my wife were looking for a mattress and bed base. We has a vispring herald and it was great but didn’t last as long as we had hoped it would and vispring unfortunately don’t guarantee the comfort to last. We spoke with a gentleman called Reece at Winstons and I suggest you give them a call again and ask for him as he really helped us. We purchased their sherwood mattress and it has been fantastic. From my understanding they don’t charge to exchange and it’s all free but this could use changed but I took the liberty of checking their website and it states it free so you may want to give them a call. I don’t see us having to change our mattress again as we are in our 60s but if we did live that long we will most definitely go to Winstons again. I hope my recommendation helps you!

chamcham · October 18, 2024, 1:08am

Hi @michaelw1963

Thanks so much for your message! I’ve read a lot about vispring and seems like their quality has plummeted in the last couple of years.

I spoke with Reece too, and recommended me the ancoats one. I will be buying from them, just need to decide if king or super king.

Unfortunately, I live in Northern Ireland, but I can still exchange, though I’d need to pay £145 for the shipping fee - it’s better than not having option to exchange at all though.

I initially wanted to try the mattress on the floor to see if I’ll prefer a platform or a sprung divan as my back is really really sensitive. Did you get their sprung bed base as well?

Thanks once again. Looking forward to hearing from you!

michaelw1963 · October 18, 2024, 1:24am

Hi Chamcham

We did get a sprung base from them it was called the “shallow spring divan” and the fabric we chose was the matador bone recommended by Reece as we have a cat and it’s the most durable and so far he has been 100% correct it’s not shown a single mark. We were quite surprised by the quality of their base as we were not expecting it to compliment the mattress as much as it does. As we were in need of a mattress quite quickly so we chose to have the mattress delivered first and it was placed onto our existing non spring base and we noticed the difference in comfort immediately when we placed it onto the shallow spring divan we purchased from them. I should also mention that I also suffer from spondylolisthesis and the mattress and spring base paired together has really helped me. I hope you get the relief from your mattress. Goodnight

ilike2burnthing · October 27, 2024, 4:17pm

Hi @chamcham, I was only planning on creeping on TMU, but saw your post, that you were from NI, and decided to join.

I bought 2 mattresses about 3 months ago near Belfast, a double and a king, each under a grand. Have you looked at the Respa brand?

It’s available in a bunch of places, but I’ve linked to EZ Living Interiors, as you hadn’t mentioned it above, and I thought the guy there was fairly knowledgeable (apologies, forgotten his name now and his card was in the bin long ago).

Their ‘Cloud’ mattress was the rough equivalent of what we (heavier set people who sleep hot, lie on our back and sides, and have back problems) ended up going for. Irish-made, medium-firm, ~2000 pocket-sprung, ‘cooling’ gel foam top, foam edge support, movement isolation, 8 year warranty, etc.

I say ‘rough equivalent’ because Respa provides OEM models for each retailer; some thicker foam here, a change in ticking there, and throw in some different fabric just for fun. Retailers will spin this as providing unique options to suit what they find their customers generally need or prefer. In reality it’s to stop people price comparing across retailers, as technically they’re different products. That said, it does mean that if you find one you like, but there’s just one thing wrong with it for your taste, chances are you can find that elsewhere without starting from scratch.

Granted we’re only 3 months in, but we’re not noticing any issues with sagging or loss of support. The cooling effect of the gel foam only works for about an hour at most, but I knew that was always going to be the case, and I’ve realised that my weighted blanket is not a good combination with this mattress, as I’m essentially being squished (whereas with my previous all foam mattress I just sank deeper into it).

Also, as you mentioned pillows, these are the ones we went with - Neuhaus Latex Wrap Pillow

Latex for breathability and cooling, microfibre centre so it doesn’t feel like you’re lying on a rubber ball, is firm enough that you only need one, but not so firm that your head is now at an awkward angle.

Hopefully something there helps, even if you don’t go for those exact ones.