Want Insanely firm bed DIY with Inner Springs/Dun;op Latex-Have Questions

Mattress Talk Needs & Personal Preferences
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Hello,
1st of all-I LOVE this site!
Been lurking for YEARS and have used the info from this site to educate myself in building supportive sofas using high density poly foam, along with natural materials, to assist balancing the heat radiating factor that comes with using foam. I have done this now with 3 sofas, 1 for my then boyfriend (now husband) & also for myself.
Before we were married, hubby had issues with getting no comfort from ANY sofa & experienced back issues when trying to just relax & watch TV after work. He is 6ā€™1" Tall , ranges 235-250lbs & carries weight in shoulders & chest, works commercial construction. We had to figure out a LOT to get a sofa that was both supportive for back cushions & the seat cushions & have it be comfortable and NOT a heat sink because he runs hot. It was a balancing act & we used a lot of materials most people would be advised not to do, but all is a success. He loved his sofa so much, he did not want to part with it when we merged houses for fear heā€™d never get the same support for his back, so we we deconstructed the original one I built for him & reused the exact same materials & purchased more of the same to build 2 new matching sofas for our livingroom.
The sofa builds were a total success in terms of support & comfort-We are hard on furniture. We used ILDā€™s that many people would not, for example, our sofa seat cushions have a 1" base of 70 ILD rebond, on top of sinuous springs, then used a 55ILD 2.8lb 4.5" core, & have a 1" 36ILD comfort layer with a surrounding cotton, then down envelope. Back cushions use a combo of HD 2.6lb 24ILD foam for core, polyfill & down for breathability along with cotton upholstery. The price to have any furniture manufacturer do this for us was cost oppressive. We figured out how to simplify the DIY process, using old SOLIDLY built sofa frames in a style that would work for our lifestyle-We now have a matching sofa set that is perfect in support, durable, low maintenance, easily cleanable. It cost us less than purchasing 1 new sofa of moderate quality.
You can successfully transfer the knowlege here to reconstruct your sofa so it will give you the support you seek.

Now we want to recreate the sofa feel in firmness, but in our bed, going completely DIY, but using latex & springs for the core & cotton/wool for some top ā€˜cushā€™.
Hubby sleeps HOT, needs support-these are the 2 main factors we need to address.
We already know where we want to be in terms of firmness & luckily, despite our differences in size/weight, I find the same firmesses perfect for myself as well.

The issue now is transferring the firmness factor we know we want from HD poly foam to all natural dunlop latex.
I have had great experiences purchasing from both FoamOrder.com & foambymail.com for HD Poly foam.

Since natural dunlop latex is so much more expensive, I want to be sure I am purchasing quality materials & getting the firmnesses I actually want for the beginning, so am here for assistance on obtaining specific components.

Our bed will be on a solid wooden platform. We have decided on the 6" Caliber Edge pocket coils from diymattress.net (Arizona Premium Mattress Co I believe)& want to put 3" of XXX-Firm natural dunlop latex over this, then we will then later tweak our top layer, which is the easier part for us.
Weā€™ve got to get this 1st part finished. We are of the school that you can easily soften up over-firm, but you can never really firm up overly soft.

My issue here is that, while we know what we want, I have only located 1 company that has the extra firm dunlop, in a super high ILD equivalent Certified Organic Latex Mattress Topper | FoamOrder
They carry 5 firmnesses in their dunlop toppers, if you scroll down to where they list the ILD equivalent, you will see that they list their ā€œhardā€ as having a range of 58-64 ILD. Anything less than this firmness over the spring unit proper is not going to work for us. Meaning a 38-44 ILD equivalent is not going to work for us over the springs.

I am wondering if other companies have a super xx firm dunlop topper in such a high ILD equivalent?
While I understand that our firmness level is outside of the majority of purchasers, it seems that IF such a firm ILD equivalent dunlop latex was available, other companies would sell it as well.
I want to shop around some.

We know we do NOT want HD polyfoam in our bed. We figured out how to mitigate the heat factor for the HD polyfoam sofa seating just fine, but heat mitigation when using polyfoam just does not transfer to work the same in a bed, when you factor laying down flat for several hours with sheets/blankets (and pets)with another person who runs so hot.
We know the degree of firmness that is for us because we experimented with a few of inches of laminated layers of rebond over springs which has a 70 ILD & that was NOT out of the question in firmness for our support. We have also already experimented with HD polyfoam & synthetic latex.
Weā€™d just go the simple route & use the rebond, but we want (read:NEED) max airflow capabilities in all aspects of our bedding, & a natural dunlop latex with all of itā€™s holes, over a quailty firm spring base is what we have decided for the 2 most important components of our build.

Every other company that I have seen which carries all natural dunlop latex only has a ā€œfirmā€ in 38-44 type of range.
My question is: What is the highest firmness ILD equivalent in natural dunlop
What companies sell the highest ILD equivalent in all natural dunlop? Iā€™ve searched the internet, & this site & can only find 1 company selling xxx-firm/hard.

Thanks for all you do on this site!!!

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Looking for Phoenix
LOL Sometimes the more you read here the more confusing it gets as you go farther down the rabbit hole, but the devil is in the details.
After reading many archives, & a LOT of Phoenixā€™s info-it seems the question I am asking should also include which method of pouring for dunlop & narrow it down that way?
I want the firmest all natural dunlop latex I can get in a 2 to3 inch slab.

Update:
A phonecall to Foamorder informed me that a 3" slab will not have holes that go all the way through-some will, some wonā€™t but they wonā€™t guarantee all do-We NEED max holes through for for airflow-it is an intentional part of the design.
Foamorder informed me that since they cut their toppers from 6" slabs, and the holes tend to taper towards the center, that if I want holes ALL the way through that I should order a 2" topper slab, & indicate it be cut from the top because I want holes all the way through. I was also informed that the top of the slabs are slightly softer & that they base their ILD of latex on a 4" piece & that the 2 & 3" slabs will be softer because they are less than 4"

***I need to get more creative if I will be stuck using 2" dunlop slabs in order to get the holes all the way through.

Uggh. Now up for consideration for part 1 of this build is::
6" Caliber Edge pocket coils, then wool felt , then 1" coconut coir pad, then 2" of the firmest dunlop on the market with holes all the way through.
My thought on the coconut coir pad on top of the Caliber, but under the latex is for both firm layer over coils, and air movement remains unrestricted.

Again, will worry about the comfort layer last, it is NOT a corcern for phase 1.

On a side note: I was planning on encasing my dunlop latex in a mattress case of course, but in discussing this via phone, Foamorder also informed me that not just blocking sunlight is important, but also blocking air??? I was confused on this, so I asked again-are you telling me I need to block air from the latex? I was told not completely, but yes???
I was then given an example of their latex display pillows, they said the ones they had on display closest to the doors needed replaced EVERY YEAR even though they were in cases-because of the air ???
***THIS^^^^ worries me greatly. As low noise/low flow fan(s) will be used nightly-which are incorporated into our bed design strategically placed to move air BOTH under & around the entire bed.
I am attempting to speed up the 2nd law of thermodynamics here, hubby sleeps TOO HOT & I am beginning menopause-We canā€™t be stuck waiting on the spontaneous movement of heat alone.
So will using fans REALLY dry out dunlop latex which is incased in a short period of time?
All of my previous research has stated HEAT & SUN kill latex & that it must breathe so air is a good thing.

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Wanted to edit to add the info below, but cannot find edit function;

Foamorder Specs for their ā€œhardā€ Dunlop toppers per phone call:
Manufacturer Arpico
ILD Range 58-64
Density 100kg/cubic meter
I was told this is based in a 4" sample, & that 2" or 3" will be slightly less firm
Does this sound realistic? It looks a bit different than other dunlop latex specs phoenix has gathered & posted for other people-to me it looks better, being more dense than many, but I am clueless on latex really. I was told their 3" queen ā€˜hardā€™ dunlop topper is around 90lbs
Guy on the phone said the ā€˜hardā€™ 3" dunlop topper weight more than twice as much as his own medium ILD which was about 40kb.
Is this a too good to be true? Because I canā€™t find anything close from any other company so far-still googling & going thru each companyā€™s ILD ranges & also using search functions here.

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Hi Catia,

Iā€™m not Phoenix but I can chime in on a few things here!

Youā€™re not the first to try and recreate a sofa feel here in the forum.

Iā€™ll say as a caveat, itā€™s so hard to approximate the feel of another sleep surface. One change in materials can change the feel entirely. For example, if you have two identical mattresses with different encasements, they could feel entirely different to one another. Trying to approximate the feel of the sofa using mattress materials may ultimate frustrate you becauseā€¦wellā€¦itā€™s a mattress :slight_smile:

Instead, we recommend focusing on adjusting your DIY perfectly to the support and comfort that feels best for you regardless of how the other mattress/couch/sofa/sleeping surface felt. Itā€™s an entirely different piece of furniture that can be tweaked to perfection - thatā€™s the beauty of a DIY.

You might be able to get an answer from Arizona Premium Mattress about this; they source latex for DIYs and could have some industry insights for you on extra extra firm dunlop.

That sounds like a sales ploy to get you to buy so so many pillows. Latex actually appreciates a little breathing - some even need to be flipped to maintain integrity. Soā€¦unless the air where you live is super saturated and humidā€¦I donā€™t think protecting the latex from air is an issue. If you do live in a wet climate, you do want to protect the latex from moisture. Notā€¦air.

It seems reasonable to me!

If the density is your focus, then totally. I know Phoenix and we folks at TMU tend to classify latex based on a number of factors (certifications, manufacturers, etc) but ultimately you need to buy what you know works for you and if you need this specific density and theyā€™re the only ones who can offer itā€¦then that sort of solves it for you :slight_smile:

If any questions slipped through let me know! Iā€™m happy to keep the convo going.

NikkiTMU

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My issue here is that their specs seem so different that every other company Iā€™ve seen so far. That raised a red flag for me, because they are the only ones with those specs & ILD-so I wanted the info reviewed-Seems unlikely to me that someone else would not carry the same if it were available. I donā€™t know or fully understand about the specs I was given, meaning how they pertain to latexā€¦ This is an online purchase their price is expensive, more than others even after a promocode & shipping is expensive too. They do have a return policy, but if it was not the firmness I need, by the time I am done paying shipping to me, & back to them, I am out about $200.
I also wanted some input on the build I posted.

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Hi Catia,

It definitely doesnā€™t hurt to double and triple check. I saw you reached out to Ken at Arizona Premium. Heā€™s very knowledgable and Iā€™d trust his input.

Iā€™m looking through the ample information youā€™ve provided to provide some feedback on your build. I think, based on what I gathered, your build is -

6" Caliber Edge pocket coils, then wool felt , then 1" coconut coir pad, then 2" of the firmest dunlop on the market with holes all the way through.
My thought on the coconut coir pad on top of the Caliber, but under the latex is for both firm layer over coils, and air movement remains unrestricted.
Comfort layer: not yet relevant

Is this correct?

As a firm base, this seems pretty solid (pun semi intended). The coconut coir is not totally necessary, but many people appreciate it as a stabilization layer.
Again, I can only give you feedback on the materials and durability. Iā€™m not going to be able to tell you if this will be firm enough or approximate the sofa feel; all of that will be determined by your own testing. DIYs really are a journey of their own which can require a lot of tweaking (unless you happen to get it right/perfect the first time).

NikkiTMU

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Thanks Nikki,
Yes, my entire goal is to get the support layer correct 1st try.
This is a lofty goal when it comes to a innersprings with latex, I am aware.:cheer:

I nailed the support/firmness issue using the wealth of information from this site before & also speaking with old seasoned upholsterers, but using PU foam.
I was warned so many times that my builds would be horribly uncomfortable & that no person would want a sofa that firm, so I am immune now to the naysayers. Hubby is thrilled with my builds, & so are his friends. These are large (200-250lb range with heavy/dense upper body)commercial construction workers that usually have bad backs from years of heavy lifting that cannot be avoided. He & others also have titanium plates & various components holding their backs/necks together, it comes with the job. My quest was driven after his neck surgery-to keep him comfortably supported as much as possible outside of work, in order to lessen the chance of needing, or at the very least, to extend the time before he needs a revision surgery, as we have friends who have become disabled from the type of injury he sustained.

I am confident (read:extremely hopeful) I can do it again, with latex & in bed form, as long as I understand what I am purchasing, & the batches of latex specs are what is stated. That seems to be the devil in the details here, density in reference to ILD & varying batches. For something so out of the ordinary as the build I am seeking to do, I feel it is best to nail down part 1 with a vendor who manufactures foam & has special order capabilities.

The reason for the 1" coir mat over the 6" Caliber coils, but under the dunlop layer was for 3 reasons:
#1 to gain the inch of height I was losing
#2 keep the firmness to a maximum
#3 keep air movement as unrestricted as possible between the latex & the springs
The reason for the idea:
because I was told by Foamorder that in order to get the piece of dunlop in the firmness I seek, with through holes, I would need to bump down from a 3" slab to a 2" slab, & special request a top piece with through holes, because the pincore holes orientation taper & end towards the center of the 6" slabs. It was explained (to me) that because I would lose an inch of height, AND that I would also loose some of the firmness & to keep that in mind with my build.

Thatā€™s how a 1" coir mat came to mind.

I donā€™t know in reality if this idea of the coir mat to make up for the 1" loss of thickness & firmness of the latex slab will work the way I am intending, but it seemed a product which is easily attainable, low cost & completely natural. Coir mats have been used successfully for hardscaping/landscaping aeration & retention of soil/rock beds long before they became known to the specialty bedding/mattress world. They do their job well. Itā€™s insane the premium charged when purchased as ā€œmattress padā€. Added this last bit in this post for those on a tight budget, who are DIYing, & not afraid of seeking materials from sources outside of the usual sources. There are ways to do things without breaking the bank if you understand the components you are working with.

Because of the predrilled holes, pegboard also came to mind, but I felt this would have ruined any chance of getting the benefit of response of the pocket coils in the 6" caliber if I placed an actual board it on top.
What are your thoughts/input?

Sorry if this is an odd array of info & detail heavy, I was raised by engineers, & am drawing on my experience building things I was told I could not. I tend to dork out & micromanage, but I usually get the job done. Itā€™s sorta my thing. Iā€™m detail oriented. Others call it OCD, I embrace that too.