Was wondering if there were any DIY "experts" that may be willing to assist with a DIY build

Mattress Talk
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Hi everyone,

In the past 3 years, I’ve gone through two high end mattresses (2k plus), both of which ended up sagging (one within 3 months) and an APM Adjustable Ultra Plush mattress and I’m at my wits end. I honestly can’t remember the last time I had a good nights sleep and woke up feeling refreshed or the very least, rested.

I’m considering going down the rabbit hole even further, but was hoping to get some advice here, from others who have DIY experience to see if I should even bother… I’m at the point where I’m considering the cheap BB Walmart mattresses and just replacing as needed. Something I really don’t want to do, but I can’t afford to spend thousands on mattresses only to have them fail in months. I hope that with some help, I can actually DIY a mattress that I’ll enjoy sleeping in.

Me: 6’1, 210lbs, side sleeper and love a softer, plush feeling mattress. I prefer the innerspring “feel”. I bought a $400 flippable plush mattress for my daughter from Mayfair and really like it. Unfortunately, they stopped selling them, otherwise I would just buy one for myself and replace as needed :slight_smile:

After the two failed s brand mattresses, after researching DIY options and recommendations here, I reached out to Ken at APM in length and discussed my stats, sleeping preferences, etc. he recommended a medium (6"- #32) core and a soft (3"- #19) topper/comfort layer. Unfortunately, that felt too firm for me (I could feel the core) and I had really poor sleep. I spoke with Ken again and he suggested adding in a 2", #28 transition layer, so I took his advice and ordered that as a transition layer. Unfortunately, that only made it worse. I went from being able to feel the core, to feeling as if I was sinking into the bed as if it were a marshmallow with no support at all. I went with what Ken suggested initially and then again with the transition layer, which only compounded the problem. I feel as if I went with the softer core, it may have worked for me. But, I don’t know.

So here it is a year later and I’m contemplating trying again… I’m not sure if I should or if I can find the right DIY solution for me, which is the reason for my post. I live in a rural area with no mattress stores near me. The closest would be 2.5 hours away each way. So I don’t have the option to “try” mattresses to find something as a base line or just to purchase.

So if someone experienced would be willing to work with me, I would greatly appreciate it. Even if it’s just to say, you’re better off not going the DIY route :slight_smile: I just feel at this point, DIY may be the only option to finally have a bed that I get a good nights sleep, but won’t end up sagging shortly after. I’m a single dad and money is tight, but I know a good nights sleep is the one thing I’m lacking and really need.

Two things I’m considering changing if I do go the DIY route again is instead of an all latex bed, is using the 8" quantum edge or 8" Texas coil as the core and possibly using a stretch cover vs the quilted cover the came with the APM bed. I’ve always liked the innerspring feel and have always slept on innersprings until the APM bed. I just wish I would have gone with the softer core in the APM config. Prior to ordering the bed from APM, I did take the drive 2.5 hours away to the Original Mattress Factory and tried their Serenity bed, which I thought was comfortable and that used a 4.5" 2.5lb foam core with a 2" 24 ILD layer and a 1" 19 ILD layer. I gave these specs to Ken and told him I was trying to get as close as I could and ended up no where near there.

Sorry, I see I’m starting to ramble on a bit… It’s out of frustration I believe. So, again, if anyone would be willing to help out, it would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance, especially if you made it this far :slight_smile:

*Edited to ask a specific question: How would the feel of a DYI bed change going from a 6", 32 ILD core to an 8" 15/15.5 gauge coil or a 4.5" 2.5lb foam core using the same comfort layer(s)?

@Arizona_Premium
@Sleep_EZ

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Hi Mognar and thanks for reaching out on this! To answer your specific question, it seems like the overall firmnesses would be very similar, although the 8" coils might make the setup a bit softer than the 32 ILD core. I can’t really speak to the 2.5 pound foam core, I just don’t have enough experience with poly foam to answer that question for you. I’ll let other members or even experts chime in regarding the DIY build, but keep in mind that most DIY companies don’t allow returns, especially on coils, so it’s a bit risky.

Our sister company Latex Mattress Factory has an inexpensive hybrid that might work for you, although it might be a bit firm for your preferences. Of course if that happens, you could add a topper or, if nothing else, it would still be eligible for return, so it’s not a huge risk (just a $99 return fee and the free pillows are yours to keep). Just something to consider - Luxerion Hybrid Latex Mattress | Buy Talalay Latex Hybrid Mattress - Latex Mattress Factory

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I would not want an all latex mattress. Not a fan of the Jell-o feel and I like the cradling support of pocket coils. As a fellow side sleeper, 2X0lbs, I’ll also say while I do initially enjoy the feel of a good plush mattress, I have better results with firm (7/10). When I laid on a soft talalay mattress (4" + coils) I immediately jumped out of it – felt like I was falling in quicksand. I laid on a 4" medium hybrid and it felt stiff but comfortable. Tried it with a 2" soft talalay topper, which felt “better”, but ultimately went with a 2" firm dunlop to use on 8" coils. I was very surprised that I went with firm, but I did so because I ordered samples from LMF and tried 8 varieties (soft to x-firm, dunlop and talalay). Talalay is interesting in that it does a very good job at the extremes: the soft is REALLY soft, the x-firm is REALLY extra firm. You hear about dunlop being more dense and blah blah but the dunlops felt more comfortable to me be miles. The only exception to this was the soft talalay, which felt wonderful on my face but nowhere else (provided 0 support). Medium in either felt like I was sinking in (got hot just nestling in it). Firm felt AMAZING. It was like there was sleeping powder on it - every time I touched it I wanted to fall fast asleep. I tried it on pressure points (shoulders, elbows, hips) and it was the same: perfect cradling but no pain, ideal sinkage. So don’t discount firm even as a side sleeper!! There is such a thing as too firm, but that would be the 8, 9, and 10/10 firmnesses stomach sleepers/350lb+ people would find proper.

Keep in mind your daughter’s mattress has her sleeping on it, not you. You’d probably tear through it in a few months too given your size. You can always look at the composition of it if a page exists anywhere (surely there’s 1). I looked at several premade beddings to learn their weaknesses and strengths.

10"+ height for your size, IMO. If you want to add some plushness consider a cozy top and/or thin layer of memory foam. The bed you described sounds like something out of a nightmare to me. The solution to problems with latex imo is not more latex!!! There should be 1 latex layer that caters to your needs.

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I am not here to give bad advice and I am a professional in latex mattresses. I am sorry that it did not work out for you but I have helped thousands get it right the first time. I give advice based on over 25 years of manufacturing of latex mattresses and customer feedback. It’s common sense that if it was too firm with the core that adding another couple inches of something a little softer would fix the issue, not make it worse. That suggestion would have worked for 99 out of 100 with similar issues. You just happened to be the 1 out of 100 that it didn’t and I’m sorry for that.

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It has been ages since I’ve been on this site, so lets get this ball rolling. The #19 that you added on top was that a Talalay blended or all natural? Dunlop blended or all natural? I agree with Ken on getting the #28 transition layer. The 19 for your size would just bottom out, that is why the 32 (which isn’t really considered extra firm) felt firm to you. The 28 allowed more stretch. Did you try the mattress without the 19? It may have felt closer to what you wanted. Yes I have added firmer transitional layer to make a mattress feel softer. 3" of 19 is what I consider fluff, it feels great when getting into bed but can create more of a sag than actual comfort when sleeping all night. We know the 28 softened the mattress but probably too much. Maybe try 2" of 22 on top of the 28.

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Hi Casey,

Thanks for the reply. I didn’t get that Jell-O feeling until I added the 2" transitional layer. Before that, it felt comfortable to me, but I was sinking into the comfort layer enough where I felt the firmer core and it was uncomfortable. Unfortunately, I live in a rural area and don’t have any options to “try” anything in store and dialing in a new bed will be trial and error by mail. But since I didn’t think the medium core, under the softer comfort layer was comfortable, I’m going to assume that I wouldn’t care for a firmer comfort layer. And I’m not even sure there as maybe it was the difference between the two firmness’s, rather than the medium core itself?

I know I’d tear through my daughters bed if I slept on it full time, just using it as an example of what feels comfortable laying on to me. At least initially, long term, not so sure.

So here’s what I’m hoping to do on my new DIY attempt. Since I have always slept on an innerspring and seem to have a preference for it vs an all latex bed, I have a Sealy Silver Pine king mattress which started sagging after only several months. I opened a small section on the side and it has what appears to be 7" encased coils with 2 rows of smaller coils on the perimeter, similar looking to a Quantum Edge spring. There’s a small 1/2" layer or so under the coils and 5" or so of foam above the coils in the eurotop. Assuming the springs are fine, I’d like to use that as a base and build from there. I think that would give me the resistance and some of the support I’m used to. I’m just not sure where to go from there. I was thinking of a half inch, to an inch of some type of foam above the springs and then using a 3" #20 dunlop topper as a comfort layer as a start. And then depending on how that feels, dial it in from there.

Any thoughts or suggestions on the type/density/size of foam to use between the coils and the comfort layer? And any thoughts on the comfort layer? Also, quilted vs stretch knit cover? I see that pocket coil has an non quilted, “slightly stretchy” cover they are selling? The APM cover was very well made and I was leaning towards using theirs, but wondering how the non quilted would feel, but can’t find any reviews on it.

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Hi Doze,

I believe all the layers were blended Talalay. Unfortunately, adding the #28 transition layer, the bed felt like a marshmallow and I was sinking in way too much. It was just “too much” latex for me. I tried moving the transition layer to the top, in-between, taking the 19 off and just using the 28, etc. I even doubled up the 3" 19 to see if that would help without the transition, no combination of what I had on hand worked or even felt comfortable. Like you said, I felt like I was either “bottoming out” or on a marshmallow with all the combinations I tried. Going by what I had to test and trial, it just seemed like the medium core was too firm and if it was a softer, when I bottomed out on the comfort layer, there would have been more give in the softer core which I “may” have liked. I no longer have that bed, so I’m starting over.

So here’s what I’m hoping to do on my new DIY attempt. Since I have always slept on an innerspring and seem to have a preference for it vs an all latex bed, I have a Sealy Silver Pine king mattress which started sagging after only several months. I opened a small section on the side and it has what appears to be 7" encased coils with 2 rows of smaller coils on the perimeter, similar looking to a Quantum Edge spring. There’s a small 1/2" layer or so under the coils and 5" or so of foam above the coils in the eurotop. Assuming the springs are fine, I’d like to use that as a base and build from there. I think that would give me the resistance and some of the support I’m used to. I’m just not sure where to go from there. I was thinking of a half inch, to an inch of some type of foam above the springs and then using a 3" #20 dunlop topper as a comfort layer as a start. And then depending on how that feels, dial it in from there. Any thoughts or suggestions on the type/density/size of foam to use between the coils and the comfort layer? And any thoughts on the comfort layer? Also, quilted vs stretch knit cover? I see that pocket coil has an non quilted, “slightly stretchy” cover they are selling? The APM cover was very well made and I was leaning towards using theirs, but wondering how the non quilted would feel, but can’t find any reviews on it.

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Hi Ken. I understand. I just have that kind of luck :slight_smile: I actually tried reaching you yesterday to discuss trying to build this new DIY, but couldn’t get anyone on the phone. Figured I’d just discuss here and see what kind of opinions and suggestions I could get.

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So here’s what I’m hoping to do on my new DIY attempt. Since I have always slept on an innerspring and seem to have a preference for it vs an all latex bed, I have a Sealy Silver Pine king mattress which started sagging after only several months. I opened a small section on the side and it has what appears to be 7" encased coils with 2 rows of smaller coils on the perimeter, similar looking to a Quantum Edge spring. There’s a small 1/2" layer or so under the coils and 5" or so of foam above the coils in the eurotop. Assuming the springs are fine, I’d like to use that as a base and build from there. I think that would give me the resistance and some of the support I’m used to. I’m just not sure where to go from there. I was thinking of a half inch, to an inch of some type of foam above the springs and then using a 3" #20 dunlop topper as a comfort layer as a start. And then depending on how that feels, dial it in from there.

Any thoughts or suggestions on the type/density/size of foam to use between the coils and the comfort layer? Something that wouldn’t affect the feel of the bed, while protecting the topper? Not knowing how the coils will feel and my past experience with the medium latex core, I’m concerned I may bottom out in the soft comfort layer and feel the springs. So I want to use something between the coils and springs to maintain the feel of the comfort layer and preventing the possibility of feeling the springs if that ends up being the case. I’ll try the topper on top of the springs first to get an idea, just thinking ahead I guess.

And any thoughts on using the #20 blended Dunlop for a comfort layer? The #19 blended talalay felt good, but just maybe a hair too soft? I hear since dunlop is denser, it feels a little firmer than a comparable talalay.

Also, quilted vs stretch knit cover? I see that pocket coil has a non quilted, “slightly stretchy” cover they are selling? The APM cover was very well made and I was leaning towards using theirs, but wondering how the non quilted would feel, but can’t find any reviews on it.

TIA!

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Thanks for the recommendation. After my experiences, I just can’t see myself buying a pre-made bed without actually testing it out prior, which is why I’m going to try the DIY route again.

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I think you’re on the right track starting with coils for a base. I don’t know what gauge yours are but this will affect how the upper layers work. Personally I’m building with the 8" ~16ga coils from my BRS900, which was a fine bed except they used this crappy foam padding that deformed and allows the coils to slip (resulting in being poked with springs/never staying comfortable). I considered just using the scrim that was on it but I’m picking up some polyester batting (draycon) today - 90" x 3 yards at Walmart for $15, will overhang between coils and foam encasement by 10" or so to allow for slippage and hope that the material does not start wedgieing between the coils. They honestly should have adhered the coils closer to the top, IMO, but I’m hopeful the latex stays firm enough that this will be a non-starter. If it does I’ll toss that, risk some foam, or just let the coils sit on latex. The problem with adding foam (or anything really) is it changes the way the mattress feels (usually in a negative way).

I do hear you about the latex and worrying about it being too firm, but I strongly recommend spending $25 (or just seeing if they’ll help you out) and getting a box of 6x6 samples from them. The medium in both varieties did not work for me. The soft would have on top of something firmer, but I would have sunken in and I think that feels terrible. Even with a tight top there would be sinking, and stacking soft on medium (of any configuration) just felt too soft for my weight. I took all the samples and placed it under my joints (elbows, shoulders, hips) to see how it rode. Of these only the firm dunlop felt perfect. I did this both on the floor and with coils, only going from 3" to 2" because I felt the 3 would be too firm after spending 20+ minutes in the same position. I may add a 1" layer of foam (ILD/density TBD) if needed, but I bought a 1.5" convoluted memory foam layer to add some softness/possibly use as a barrier between the coils. I’m not sweating wasting $10-$30 here or there on tweaks, I worry about trying to return latex toppers or having coils that don’t work.

Finally, for plushness, I bought 2 different mattress protectors off Amazon. These have fluffy cells of alternative down (probably polyester) that should provide a somewhat pillowtop feel without concern for it breaking down/being hard to replace. They cost me $30-$40. I’d like to sleep as close to the latex as I can because that’s what I bought it for and what feels comfortable. Even adding this additional plush layer may be unnecessary because for my weight firm feels perfectly soft. I think if I were 180lbs it would feel too firm, just as someone 150lbs might find medium latex too firm. Thankfully changes are a layer away if I slim back down, doubt I’ll ever have to buy a “new” mattress ever again!

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I searched, but was unable to find out what gauge coils they used in this mattress. And the fact they measured at 7" seems odd. New, the bed was comfortable, but the 5" of crap foam they used gave out in 3 months. So I’m hoping the springs will be sufficient for my DIY. One of the 2" layers of foam is glued to the top case of the springs, but it seems like it’s only around the outer perimeter and was fairly easy to separate. I only separated a small section, but there was some hard areas of glue that remained. I’ll try to clean it as best I can, but figured it wouldn’t hurt to put some sort of protective layer over the springs. I won’t know for sure until I totally dissect the bed and I don’t want to do that until the comfort layer arrives. I may get the batting like you did from Wally World and use that as protection to start off with.

I haven’t seen any shops that sell both dunlop and talalay in various sizes. It’s usually either or, or only limited ILD’s, so getting samples might be problematic. Going by what I actually had previously, when I tried laying on the 6" 32 core alone, that was just too uncomfortable for me. When I added the 3" 19, that felt good. I didn’t mind the sinking in (I don’t sleep hot), but again, did notice and found the core to be too uncomfortable underneath. So I’m hoping the springs make a difference, but may end up back in the same situation where I’m sinking too much into the comfort layer and can feel the springs. So I’ll have to wait and see. Like you, I have no problem spending a few bucks to dial in the mattress and more concerned with having to ship back latex toppers. As far as the springs, since I’m going to use what I have on hand, I’ll have to hope for the best :slight_smile: And I realize when I take the bed apart, I may end up having to buy new springs if they have any issues.

I’ll have to wait until I have the topper on the springs and can test it before I can go further and work on any needed additional plushness. I’m going to keep the DIY bed in the old case initially and use that quilted top to see how it feels with a quilted top and go from there. I just hope I’m making the right choice with a 3" #20 dunlop, as I’ve never tried it.

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We’re pretty much in the same boat. I’ll let you know how the batting holds. Unfortunately my latex is delayed due to high volume so it will be 2-3 weeks before it’s in.

I think 20 ILD dunlop might work for you. (*see edit) It almost worked for me and since you don’t mind the “sleep in” your mattress feel is probably the way to go. You can pick up a 1" D50 foam at FoamFactory for like $15 (+$12 shipping) if you still feel the coils thru the dunlop. They also make a 36 ILD. If you just “kinda feel them” it’s probably the way to go, otherwise dense (I think they offer thinner as well). Just keep in mind anything you add to or take away changes the feel, and less is more when it comes to the layers and fabrics.

The reason for the samples is to get an actual tactile feel of each latex. The only real difference is the process and displacement. Talalay is more like a solid uniform piece due to pulling a vacuum and freezing prior to baking. The difference in firmness is simply due to tighter/looser rod spacing and the size of rods used to make the holes: it changes the feel/firmness but not the material (in other words a 3" cube of solid latex would be the most firm possible with latex and drilling holes would change it’s “density”/ILD - if you pinch a little portion it’s exactly the same no matter the “firmness” level). The talalay feels more dense/evenly distributed whereas dunlop is more cakey (like how bread has holes in it). You can see why it’s cheaper - but it’s not necessarily “worse” (I think Dunlop’s better).

That said the medium talalay has better density/a more uniform feel, so while it’s slight (10-20%), the talalay has more firmness. If you find yourself sinking in and only need a bit more buoyancy, you may want to switch processes. The firm dunlop feels about 28% more firm than the medium talalay and about 34% firmer than medium dunlop IMO.

A 6" 32 ILD core does sound horrible and entirely too firm. I reduced mine from 3" to 2" because it is firm, but it’s only firm in its context (latex for a mattress). It’s really like a 7ish on mattress scale (7.7 at 3") - I’m hoping for 6.7/10 with 2". Though I’ve never laid on a 6" layer, I’d imagine it’s above an 8 (8.2-8.4?) as it’s compressed down. A 6" medium talalay would probably feel more firm than 2" of firm dunlop on 8" 16ga springs once you’re laying down (with considerably more sink). Just trying to say the devil’s in the details! (or in this case, thickness, process, and ILD) Hopefully my attempt to use words to convey how the different samples feel saves you the trouble of ordering them and how you might pivot next if you’re unhappy once it’s built.

Edit: Just realized you’re buying 3" soft not 3" medium. It’s gonna be pretty soft mate. You’ll almost definitely feel the springs at 210lbs – was thinking you got ~28 ILD!!

Edit 2: If you haven’t already ordered I’d recommend getting medium (24-28 ILD). A 24 ‘plush’ 3" talalay might feel the best but I think you’ll still feel the coils at your size (plus tear up the latex pretty quick). Medium 24 talalay or 28 dunlop should provide enough support and be comfortable for 180-240lbs. If you haven’t ordered you may still wanna get those samples :wink:

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Ok I’m very, very biased. If you want good pocketed coil springs get VI-Spring or Hastens.
Any other pocketed coil spring made in America is junk. I prefer nested coils, overfilled, center tied with at least 6 turns per spring, with a heavy enough quality steel wire that does not require tempering, and will properly support a person. I wish I could find these springs however HSM, L&P and others will not provide them.

So what to do for your mattress. I believe you have a firm innerspring, you have to start pretty firm and build softer with the foams. If you start firm and layer soft like 3" of 20 ILD you will bottom out. It will give you a soft feel initially but lack support and body in the foam so you will eventually feel the harshness of the spring. I would start with 1" 30/ 1" 26/2" 20. If you feel like your still bottoming out add 1" 32 and take away the 1" 30 and add additional 1" 26. For a person your size going to softer than 20 ILD latex takes away the support you need from the top layers. The secret is blending the foams 3" of any foam is a lot of foam in my opinion. Good Luck

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Just updating that my stuff finally got in and bed is assembled. The Poly-Fil Project Fleece™ Polyester Batting by Fairfield™, 72" x 90" worked great as a scrim. $10.88 and it covered the entire Queen size perfectly with enough to tuck the sides/corners without overstuffing. I was moving latex and memory foam around on it while testing configurations and it stayed put even without staples.

The 2" firm Dunlop worked out perfectly for my back and hips; back feels in exact alignment as does hip during side sleeping. My only complaint is it’s firm on my rib cage. Considering a 1.5" medium topper but am hesitant to ruin my gains on alignment. I slept like a rock on my back it’s just that one spot on my side.

I tried several configurations “just to be sure”, variations of the 1.5" memory foam and 2" latex, even doubled. Ultimately I stuck to my original plan of coils, memory foam, latex. The only difference is I kept the original quilted top from the bed instead of a mattress protector because the polyester (even though cotton on the face) made it too hot. Same for foam - any time I added that above the latex I could feel it trap heat (and honestly cheap foam feels gross).

To do it again I might have gone with 3" medium talalay directly on coils (with batting of course). I’d have lost the PERFECT back support and my hips would sink too deep but it’d be more cozy on my side. Since I share this mattress with my gf who is heavier and a stomach sleeper I’m fine with this. Current plans are replace the 1.5" convoluted memory foam I got off Amazon for $25 with a 2" layer of ViscoPlush 4lb memory foam from Foam Factory. I’m ordering sample packs of their bedding and upholstery for peace of mind + curiosity. I’m thinking just doing this will satisfy my side as doubling the 1.5" layer under the latex added comfort (but was too much and cheap foam). Every change I did with the mattress affected the feel a good bit.

@Mognar hopefully you got my message about going medium over soft. Even latex softens with use, and body weight truly matters.