what to do?

Iā€™m wondering if maybe I should try a wool topperā€¦ this place (which I found in another thread on this site) http://www.woolenmill.com has a nice guarantee:

[quote]30 Day Better Sleep Protection Plan

If for any reason you are not completely satisfied with your Natureā€™s Comfort Wool Mattress Pad or Wool Comforter, you may return it to us for a full refund of the product price. Please call 1-800-208-9821 for a return authorization. Product must be returned in original container and original condition.

Any products damaged beyond normal wear will not be accepted for return. All returns must be shipped pre-paid. We will not accept C.O.D. for shipment cost. Product must be delivered to The St. Peter Woolen Mill, 101 W. Broadway, St. Peter, MN 56082 within 30 days from receipt of delivery.
[/quote]

Just because of the continued discomfort (although less) Iā€™m feeling lying on my backā€¦ Iā€™m just wondering if maybe the ā€œbody-conformingā€ feeling of latex is just not right for meā€¦ so this seems like a potential alternative option.

I would think I would want to remove the 2" latex topper and replace with one of these wool ones? If it is more comfortable maybe the mattress place would be willing to take the topper back. I donā€™t knowā€¦

Hi kregan1013,

A wool topper, like other materials, has unique properties and it can certainly be a ā€œproblem solverā€ for some people. In your case this may be either with or without the topper (wool will not be as soft and conforming as the latex and you may need some extra softness over the wool alone).

In you case though ā€¦ I would definitely give it some extra time because there are two other things happening and you have only been sleeping on your current combination for less than a couple of weeks. One of these is the normal adjustment to a new sleeping surface which can take up to several months in some cases (and it appears that this adjustment is still continuing to happen) and the second is that you have other complicating issues that may make it very difficult to know which part of what you are experiencing is the mattress and which part is from the other issues.

If you make changes too quickly when there are still other complicating factors at work ā€¦ you may end up with something that works for now but as you continue to adjust or as the other issues are dealt with may once again put you out of your range.

So while I think that this could be a very good option ā€¦ I also think itā€™s too early to know for sure and I would also want to find out what your doctor says which may help you link your ā€œsymptomsā€ to the underlying cause.

Phoenix

Interesting, I assumed that a wool topper would be very flush/soft/cushy. Anyways, I think youā€™re right that I should give it some more time and see what happens. Thanks again.

Hi kregan1013,

Wool is not as ā€œsoft and cushyā€ as a soft foam (especially an ultra soft latex topper like you have), particularly when it is compressed, but it also acts differently. It can provide good localized pressure relief rather than pressure relief along a wider area but it can also have less risk of alignment issues than thicker layers of soft foam. Of course it also has other benefits such as breathability, and humidity and temperature control. Like with any type of mattress layer ā€¦ wool toppers come in a wide variety of thickness, types of wool (which have different resilience properties) and types of construction which can make them firmer or softer. I found the outlets I listed particularly informative and helpful and it would make sense to talk with them about what you are looking to achieve with a wool topper once your circumstances have stabilized a bit more.

Phoenix

Hi, have you been sleeping on the Pamper model with the topper now for awhile? Iā€™ve just read all of the on-going posts between you and Pheonix from July and Aug. I am EXTREMELY curious to hear how you are faring now with the topper on top of the Pamper! Because I am in a VERY similar situation and considering exchanging my PLB Beautiful for the Nature plus topper or Pamper plus topper. Its only been 3 nights (my husband thinks I am not giving it enough time at ALL), but I am experiecing the same type of symptoms you were havingā€¦ hips sinking in, ā€œpush backā€ in the small of my back leading to pain/discomfort, and a feeling of the mattress being too firm between my shoulder blades and upper back. I wake up with my upper back feeling numb - Iā€™ve been up for an hour now and I just now feel it ā€œwarming upā€, and with pain in my lower back and hips slowly subsiding. I am a back sleeper, but I find I am most comfortable on this mattress on my side. So I go to sleep on my side but find many times throughout the night I am waking up on my back in pain (my natural inclination I guess while Iā€™m sleeping to roll over onto my back). I counted waking up like this at least 10 times last night that I know about and that is not counting all of the partial wake-ups I must go through throughout the night which leads me to feeling (and looking) like I hit a mack truck in the middle of the night. Even my kids commentedā€¦ mommy you look terrible today! Soā€¦ here I am into day 3 of my new, hugely expensive mattress that I researched ad nauseum for months - includiing this site which I found SO extremely helpful with so much information and knowledge. I had posted a really positive review about a month ago of my decision to finally pull the trigger on the Beautiful and at the time and have been eagerly awaiting its arrival ever since. Well now its here. I knew I would post once I had received it and slept on it awhile, but I just came across your post and wanted to reply as I canā€™t believe you left me with the biggest cliffhanger! What do you think of the pamper with the topper??? Is your pain less? Do you think that latex is a good mattress for you and that like me you just had the wrong model before, the Beautiful which was too soft? The store where I purchased was great and they have a 60 day exchange policy, but I donā€™t know if I should give it some more time or that I kinda know what I know now and I should just make the exchange now instead of enduring more restless nights. Thanks so much for your feedback on your current mattress/sleeping situation!
And, to Phoenix, THANK YOU SO MUCH for such a wonderful website and your expansive knowledge and thoughtful responses to everyoneā€™s posts. It is amazing how you are able to keep up with the volume of information and reply to the specific needs people are seeking answers to so quickly.

Hi candcsmom,

Iā€™m not kregan1013 of course but I thought I would make a few comments and hopefully Kregan will see this and reply as well (unfortunately the nature of a forum sometimes is that there are often many ā€œcliffhangersā€ where we donā€™t find out the outcome)

I was reading through your other posts and it was interesting to notice that your preference in the PLB lineup was originally the Nature (you didnā€™t mention adding a topper at the time) which would be more suitable for back sleeping for most people than the Beautiful (which has some very thick layers of softer latex in it). I would be careful adding a soft topper to the Nature though (depending on which type of topper) because it may ā€œmoveā€ it closer to the Beautiful. The Nature would also have more ā€œroomā€ for adding a topper though if it was necessary. It also goes to show that when there is any doubt between two mattresses in a showroom that both seem to 'work" ā€¦ choosing the one that is firmer is usually the best idea.

The Pamper plus a topper could also be a more suitable choice (the comfort layers are even thinner than the Nature) and would have even more ā€œroomā€ to add a topper.

I know the ā€œtemptationsā€ of going too soft based on the comfort and ā€œcushā€ factors in a showroom (I like ā€œsoftā€ as well) but as the saying goes ā€¦ comfort is what you feel when you go to bed at night and support is what you feel when you get up in the morning and it appears to me that the comfort layers in the Beautiful may be too soft and thick for your back sleeping support and alignment needs. support and alignment is more difficult to ā€œfeelā€ in a showroom (although you can certainly get an idea with some good guidance based on both any tension you feel when you are completely relaxed in your normal sleeping position (or tendency to ā€œhold upā€ parts of your body) the specs of the mattress and ā€œeyeballingā€ how you look when you are lying on a mattress.

While I would be tempted to stick with it for a week or so just to make sure (because there is usually an adjustment period for all new mattresses, especially if they are different from what you are used to sleeping on previously) ā€¦ the odds are that the Beautiful may be too soft and thick in the comfort layers for a typical back sleeper and if anything it will get a little softer as it breaks in so it may be worth waiting a little while but I wouldnā€™t go through an extended period of hoping that things will get better in your case.

Phoenix

Thanks, Phoenix! Actually after I posted, I saw that I had missed ā€œthe end of the storyā€ :slight_smile: by not going to page 2 (duh!) so I apologize for not looking further down the post between you and Kregan1013. And as always, I really appreciate your feedback and advice so thank you for replying back! Ok, so last night was night number 4 with the new Beautiful mattress and I think its getting worse - not better. In fact the name ā€œBeautifulā€ for me is definitely stating to conjure up some really ugly images! I am coming to the conclusion and agree that its way too soft and I do not need another night to prove it! The issues in my back and neck have resulted in a 5 alarm migraine today that is finally just subsiding - 10 hours later - and enough to where I can function normally. I actually have a chiroproactor appointment tomorrow - for past on-going issues that had been resolved for the most part in recent years - issues that I cannot blame entirely on the mattress - but I think are being rewakened and exacerbated by it. The too soft top layer is causing my spine to go out of alignment which is causing the vertebrae in my neck to go out and cause the migraines. I refuse to sleep on it again in this configuration! I have some thoughts, and in the mean time, Iā€™ll be in the guest bedroom on our 15 year old Stearns & Foster innerspring coil mattress which at least has predictable aches & pains associated with it and that I can get through the day inā€¦ That being said, if I do get enough sleep tonight to do some logical reasoning and research, I will go back to the drawing board tomorrow. My thoughts at this point nclude (in no particular order):

  1. Going back to the store where I purchased the Beautiful at my huge 53% markdown price and beg for a similar markdown on either the Pamper or Nature. Unfortunately, all of the close-out sales that were going on at the time in the area at competing retailers are over, so my price-match guarantee game scheme is over. I am hoping they will work with me, but I still have to decide between the two models and whatever it is, Iā€™m stuck with it - you only get ONE comfort exchange. Of course Iā€™ll try them out again and pay particular attention to the feeling of my hips sinking in too far this time, but I am really afraid of choosing the wrong one. I know the Pamper has less transition between the soft layer and the firm core, and therefore is more customizable if I purchase extra layers from a third party. I sort of remember it being too hard without a 2" topper and too soft with it. And I also remember the Nature, having more transitional layers before the core, feeling almost good without a topper and definitely too soft with the 2" topper (but not as soft as the Beautiful which is what led me to the Beautiful over the other two to begin with).

  2. If I purhcase the Pamper with a topper, I was thinking maybe I could purchase another layer from one of the on-line retailers you recommend that is not as ultra-soft as the PLB 2" topper but will provide some softness over the bare Pamper and either put it between or instead of the PLB topper. I would not have all the layers encased but I guess that is ok.

  3. Expanding on that thought process, I was wondering what would it feel like if I simply flipped over the Beautiful and purchased a couple of layers on-line to put on-top of the ā€œbottomā€. What is your opinion about that? is the bottom too firm - more of a foundation? or could it actually be slept on? and if so, what type of firmness (i.e. med and then a soft) layer would be suitable on top of it. I believe Kregan1013 tried that??

  4. I could scrap the whole PLB mattress idea for the master bedroom and do an exchange for a good quality but much less expensive mattress to replace that old guest bedroom mattress (Famous Tate would refund me the difference in price). And then Iā€™d be free to really start from square 1 on a new master bedroom mattress. If I went this route then Iā€™d probably look at the Sleep-Ez system which Iā€™ve learned so much about from your site. And I probably go for the all natural, organic latex, 13000 size as I like the extra height of a thick mattress and Iā€™d really talk to the guys to find out what layering is right for me. Iā€™d probably slpit it between each side so that would give even more options to play around with the layers if needed (my husband really doesnā€™t care - heā€™s just tired of me being tired all the time!) so Iā€™d probably order in such a way as to give me the most options :slight_smile: Then again, he is tired of this whole process and would probably not be too keen on this approach as it would seem to him a never-ending process of revolving layers :slight_smile:

  5. Thinking about the Sleep-ez system, again, gets me thinking again about how could I work with what I already haveā€¦ which is a great quality all natural latex mattress? Is there someone I can hire to take it apart and recase it -either without the ultrasoft top layer, or substituting one of the soft layers with a more firm layer I buy from an on-line retailer? Is this even a feasible thought process? or the result of a brain not getting enough restful rest?? Are the layers glued and not possible to separate?

  6. What is all this Iā€™m reading about new specs for the Nature (or is it for all of the PLB models)? something about gel infusion? and how would that change the feel of things? I would hate it to feel like the gel-infused memory foam mattresses now everywhere. I know that is why the competing local retailer was closing out the current PLB modelsā€¦ to make room for the new-spec modelsā€¦ and hence the deep discounts. So now even more confusionā€¦ if I did go with a Pamper or Nature, I donā€™t know if I should go for the old specs or the new specs and what the difference really is in term of feel without waiting for one to get on a showroom flloor and try it out? I suppose I could call PLB tomorrowā€¦

Lastly, I was wondering about the temperature of a latex sleeping surface. I feel like the mattress gets incredibly hot. And that is contrbuting to the poor nights sleep. Is that typical of all latex mattresses? Maybe the gel infusion is an attempt to solve that problem? Or would a different type of protector help? Currently Iā€™m using the thin waterproof, breathable mattress protector the store gave me which they said was the recommended protector by the manufacturere. They threw it in for free with my deal (a $99 retail price).

Thanks again, Phoenix, for your time to read through and contemplate all this and any feedback/thoughts/suggestions you have!

Hi candcsmom,

I tend to agree that sleeping on the Beautiful isnā€™t likely to get any better. If itā€™s too soft, then any adjusting, break in, or time isnā€™t going to help.

Just as an additional consideration however (and this wouldnā€™t make the mattress more appropriate but your comments indicated that it may also be an issue) ā€¦ a new pillow may also be necessary with a new mattress where you sink in to a different depth than your previous mattress. A pillow that works to keep your head and neck aligned may not work on a different mattress and a substantial part of good alignment in a sleeping sytem comes from a suitable pillow.

Based on your previous comments I think both the Pamper with some additional layers or the Nature would be more suitable than the Beautiful. The Nature has only 2" of soft latex and then an inch of medium and then the core so this is considerably less soft latex than the Beautiful (which has 3" of 19 and then another 2" of 24 ILD). I think that depending on your body type ā€¦ both of these would give you some room to adjust although the Pamper more than the Nature.

Depending on the price of the PLB topper ā€¦ you may be better off purchasing the topper and any other layers elsewhere. As you are also mentioning ā€¦ the PLB topper is very soft and again depending on body type I would tend to go a little firmer (19 ILD or higher) unless you were quite light. If you go in the direction of the Nature it may be good by itself but the Pamper with only an inch of soft latex on top (the old model) will of course need a topper and a couple of additional inches of softer latex may do the trick. A separate cover for the topper would work fine and all the layers donā€™t need to be in the same cover.

This isnā€™t likely to work very well for a couple of reasons. The bottom of the Beautiful would be way too firm for comfortable sleeping, isnā€™t finished to be conforming, and it would still have some very soft foam in the mattress but they would now be in your support layers and would still not be firm enough to keep you in good alignment. I think you would hav both a potential pressure relief problem and alignment problem. You can see all of Kregan1013ā€™s posts and results with a search on his username (you can just click on this).

If there are no ā€œcatchesā€ in the exchange ā€¦ then this sounds like a good option to me as well ā€¦ especially if an exchange for another PLB model doesnā€™t come with the same ā€œvalueā€ as your Beautiful purchase.

The layers are glued and would be difficult to separate. I think you are probably better off to go with a mattress that is designed to be ā€œrearrangedā€ like the SleepEz. Even if you did take apart the layers ā€¦ you would still be left with either the 2" middle layer or the 3" top layer ā€œwastedā€ (youā€™d have to remove one of them) or as you mentioned needing to replace it with something firmer. Removing the middle layer would leave you with pretty much the same mattress as the Pamper with a 2" topper and youā€™d still have to buy a new cover. I donā€™t think it would make economic sense.

The new PLB models use what PLB calls ā€œActive Fusion fast responseā€ talalay and what the manufacturer calls ā€œTalalay GL fast responseā€ (which they used to call Celsion). It has phase change gel in the talalay to help with temperature regulation and it also has a cover with the same material in it. I think itā€™s a response to some of the gel memory foam popularity and Iā€™m not sure itā€™s necessary with Talalay latex which is already one of the coolest types of foam although in some circumstances it may help some people. The inch of firm latex on the bottom of the old lineup has also been added to the top layers instead (in most cases to the second layer down except in the pamper where itā€™s added to the top layer).

They are supposed to feel similar so I donā€™t know if they changed any of the ILDā€™s or just changed the material and added the extra thickness to the comfort layer but I would choose the one that worked best based on testing if you have a choice rather than on ILD ā€œtheoryā€ which isnā€™t known for sure. They are also more expensive.

In general no ā€¦ Talalay latex is the coolest of all the foams but there are many factors in the sleeping temperature of a mattress besides just the foams that are on the top layers including how far you sink into the mattress and the protector and sheets you are using. Thereā€™s more about sleeping temperature in post #2 here.

Yes ā€¦ a wool protector like the Dormier would be water resistant instead of waterproof but would breathe better. It may also have a slightly greater effect on the latex below it (depending on how tight and stretchy your current protector is). A stretch knit cotton protector something like this is not waterproof or water resistant (it will absorb the moisture from normal sleeping but not ā€œaccidentsā€) but is very breathable and stretchy. Both of these would be more breathable and cooler than the membrane type protectors which are less breathable (even though they breathe more than a solid vinyl protector which is also waterproof).

Natural cotton, bamboo or bamboo blend, or linen sheets will also be cooler than synthetics.

Phoenix

Thank you, Phoenix, for the reply and suggestions! I feel ready to take on the search again today! (partly thanks to a decent nightā€™s sleep on the old cruddy mattress :slight_smile: I am going to ask around at the two stores here that sell the PLB lineup when they are getting the new versions on the floor. I also wonder if the cases will be a different color or some other way indicate that it is the new specs. Iā€™ll report back when I make another decision. Iā€™ll also look into the different protector options for temperature control no matter which one I end up with. I did want to mention that I have a variety of pillows iincluding the two new ones the mattress store gave me - one is the shredded latex and one the regular solid latex. I like them both, but I would have to say my all time favorite pillow is ā€œMy Favorite Pillowā€ which I bought on a sleepless infomercial night about 6 months ago. The first version I ordered according to my height & weight was too ā€œfullā€ so I exchanged it for the one rated for a childā€™s size (in a king size) and its perfect. It is not too full and I can shift the shredded contents any way I want to for good neck and support. It is similar to the shredded latex pillow but not as full. Iā€™m not exactly sure whatā€™s in it but feels like it could be latex or some other foam. Thanks again!

Hi candsmom,

The new ones have a blue tinted cover.

Pillows are one of those things that are very personal. Different types are more or less suitable for each different sleeping position but beyond these ā€œneedsā€ ā€¦ the ā€œfeelā€ of a pillow can be even more important than a mattress because we sleep so close to it and it seems that each person has a pillow style that they particularly like.

If you mean the ā€œmypillowā€ you can read a little bit more about how itā€™s made and what is in it in post #20 here.

Phoenix

Hi Pheonix,

Its been a couple of weeks since my last post and I am no further along with ā€œwhat to doā€. I have up to 60 days for my comfort exchange on the PLB Beautiful sitting unused in my master bedroom. Iā€™m not even close to that, but do want to make the decision sooner than later so we can ā€œget on with lifeā€ :slight_smile: We are still sleeping on the old guest bed mattress and do have visitors coming next month so I need to decide what to do. I think the current problem is I have hit information overload or analysis paralysis or whatever that expression is. Your site is so useful and so full of information, that I feel if I keep reading and searching then the right decision will be obvious. All it has managed to do though is make me consider more options and more decisions until my head is spinning and I literally have to walk away from my computer:) At one point about a week ago I was ready to order from SleepEZ but then got bogged down with all the choices just on their website aloneā€¦ of which type of latex and organic or not and 3 layers or 4 layersā€¦ And then of course every choice is, for me anyway, another trip down the rabbit hole to find posts and experiences of othersā€¦ So now I am right back here asking you a few more questions to help clarify and simplify some of these choices within choices. Maybe Iā€™m making it too complicated for myself? I just donā€™t want to make another mistake. At least, thanks to this site, I do feel like I have a very thorough knowledge base now to ask more meaningful questions, and even more importantly, ready to receive more meaningfully your responses.

Iā€™m not sure I ever gave you ā€œmy specsā€ before, but I am a 5ā€™3" and 150 lbs back sleeper. As mentioned before, my husband who is 6ā€™ and 220lbs, could sleep on any surface in any position, but he does have obstructive sleep apnea and uses a CPAC now which forces him to sleep mostly on his back (he used to favor sleeping on his stomache). Its always been my hunch that his sleep apnea would improve with a better, supportive mattress for him (and pillow but weā€™ll get to that later).

So hereā€™s where I am with the decision: I am going to do a comfort exchange on the Beautiful with a new, less expensive mattress for the guest bedroom and/or mattress for my sonā€™s room (those decisions and searches are secondary right now and can wait till later!) I will get a refund for any difference in price. That leaves me free to start over on the master bedroom. Iā€™ve decided on SleepEZ because, in addition to the quality, value, customer service reputation, your endorsement, other satisfied users etc etc, they have the most flexibility in DIY and best return and exchange program. These are the two most important things to me over cost. So now which combination to order? Before I call Shawn, I wanted to get your input based on what you know of my ā€œfailureā€ with the Beautiful.

  1. I think I want the 13000 series, not neccesarily because of wanting more latex layers, but because I want the extra height of the mattress. But the extra cost between the 13000 and 10000 does not seem justified for only this reason. If I went with the 10000 series which is 9" mattress and ordered the 9" bases that gives me 18" total height but I want it to sit even higher. Other than making modifications to my bedframe to raise up where the base sits, is there any other way to increase the height of the mattress? Double up on bases perhaps (a low profile on top of a standard?) Would that be unstable?

  2. Would I want the extra layer in the 13000 for comfort and support? If so, then the extra cost is justified. I just donā€™t know if I would be antagonizing even more over what layering combinations to get and what the feel would be. All I do know is the Beautiful is too soft. I have not been back to the store to try out the Pamper and Nature again as I wanted to be able to have a plan before I saw the salesman again and since I think Iā€™m not going to exchange it for one of those anyway.

  3. Is the 100% Natural Dunlop option under the ā€œLatexā€ tab on SleepEzā€™s website the same as the 100% Dunlop under the ā€œOrganic Latexā€ tab? I think I really understand the terminology now and what it refers to, but Iā€™m still a little confused by the options on their website and now even more unsure of what I want. This is my understandingā€¦ maybe you can tell me if I got it right. Iā€™m sure I jotted down these notes while reading through the posts here while looking at the SleepEZ site. And I understand now that there is actually 4 ā€œtypesā€ of latexā€¦ and that the 100% latex is less likely to last as long as a blend (a 10 yr warranty vs 20 year)

  1. PURE LATEX which is actually a blend of 80% synthetic & 20% natural - Talalay method and exact percentages depend on the manufacturer. This is what the PLB Beautiful is?
  2. NATURAL LATEX which is actually a blend of 20% synthetic & 80% natural - Talalay method and exact percentages depends on the manufacturer.
  3. 100% NATURAL LATEX = 100% natural latex standard method = Dunlop method
  4. 100% NATURAL TALALAY LATEX also called ALL NATURAL = 100% natural latex - Talalay method

and we wonder why weā€™re all confused?! :slight_smile:

  1. The Organic line-up then is either 100% latex - Dunlop or Talalay. And the cover is of organic cotton and wool. But if Dunlop latex is the same under each lineup, and if you were choosing all of the layers to be Dunlop, why would you pay the additional cost? for the organic cover?

  2. Would you have any suggestions for a starting layering configuration for either the 10000 or 13000 series for me based on everything Iā€™ve told you? Keeping in mind, Iā€™d like to do the split set-up option so I would have even more flexibility with the layers that would come on my husbandā€™s side. And please consider I am open to either organic vs non-organic and Dunlop vs Talalay or some combination of the two. Cost is probably the least consideration although if I can be happy with something that costs less than I donā€™t want to pay more. Iā€™m sure there is some mathematical formula to apply to best optimize the options, but my brain is seriously overwelmed with too much information right now to figure it out! I also saw on their website the ā€œ8 inch specialā€ but that would only leave me with two layering options, right?

Thanks in advance, Pheonix!

Oops I meant to clarify that my husband is currently sleeping on the Beautiful and neither likes or dislikes it. So its not totally unused as I mistated below :slight_smile: But I am definitely NOT sleeping on it anymore!

Hi candcsmom,

Rather than contribute to further confusion ā€¦ with the flexibility offered with the 10000 (or the 13000) ā€¦ I would just order Shawns recommended ā€œstandardā€ configuration of either one (based on your height and weight) and then you would have the chance to re-arrange them based on your actual experience rather than theory. For you this would probably be S/M/F and for him would probably be M/F/XF but a longer conversation with Shawn will give you much better guidance (and confidence) about their mattresses and your choices than I could. I think you need a single ā€œvoiceā€ to prevent any confusion between conflicting suggestions and since they actually make the mattress and have a database of thousands of customers and he knows every nuance of the layers he uses (they have several options for suppliers) I think the most ā€œeffectiveā€ voice would be his (on an actual phone call rather than reading the website). The ā€œstandardā€ configuration would have a more progressive firmness than the Beautiful (which has a lot of soft latex on top) and would provide you both with better support IMO. Re-arranging the layers or even a layer exchange can help you find the best combination in real life rather than ā€œtheoryā€ and bypass all the confusion and second guessing.

I donā€™t think adding a layer of latex would be a good way to add extra height (itā€™s an expensive material to use for height) but it does offer extra flexibility and has a more ā€œgradualā€ compression because itā€™s thicker. If you want to raise the height of your bed ā€¦ I would use a set of bed risers or universal bedlegs (depending on what type of bedframe you have). A google search on bed risers will give you many options.

I think both would be suitable but the 13000 would give you more flexibility and layering possibilities. It may also be a preference for your husband who is heavier but since it seems he can sleep on anything I think the 13000 would be based on preference not necessity. Again though ā€¦ I would discuss this with Shawn. You will find that ā€œ'voiceā€ communication which is much more interactive will reassure you about what may be your best choice much more effectively than writing about ā€œdry numbersā€ on a forum.

100% natural Dunlop is pretty much the same material as ā€œorganicā€ Dunlop and they are both made from 100% natural latex. The difference is that raw material that is used in the organic has been certified (just like organic fruits or vegetables) which means that they use organic agricultural and production methods to produce the latex. The certification is time consuming and expensive so the higher cost of the material reflects that even though they are both Dunlop latex that would have the same performance.

Pure Latex Bliss has two lines of mattresses. One of them is 100% natural Talalay and the other which you had I believe is blended Talalay (I believe this is a 70/30 blend with synthetic/natural). ā€œPureā€ latex is a fairly meaningless term when it comes to latex because both synthetic latex and natural latex are both latex and could both be called ā€œpureā€ latex (unless they were mixed with some other type of material). 100% natural Dunlop is all natural (it has no synthetic latex at all). Dunlop can be made in any blend. 100% natural Talalay also uses completely natural latex with no synthetic. Talalay can also be made in any combination but blended is usually either 70/30 or 60/40 (depending on the manufacturer).

I believe it is completely misleading to use ā€œnaturalā€ to describe a blended latex but Latex International (or more accurately Pure Latex Bliss) does this. I think itā€™s completely misleading terminology.

  1. 100% NATURAL LATEX = 100% natural latex standard method = Dunlop method

This could be either method. 100% natural latex only means the raw material and doesnā€™t specify whether it is made with the Dunlop or Talalay method although it is true that if the method isnā€™t specified then itā€™s more often dunlop.

Yes ā€¦ this specifies both the natural latex content and the method of production.

I would use the ā€œstandardā€ layering that Shawn recommends (in either the 10000 or the 13000) which would provide you with the most flexibility and would be closest to what I believe you would need. It would be better than the Beautiful IMO. I personally would tend towards either the blended Talalay or the 100% natural Dunlop which I believe is better value unless someoneā€™s ā€œvalue equationā€ leans strongly towards the most natural or organic materials possible for its own sake.

Unfortunately there are so many variables between people that there is no formula that can determine what would work best for you and the best method to make a choice is a more detailed conversation on the phone IMO.

The 8" option doesnā€™t have the wool and only has a 2" comfort layer and with your preference for softer (evidenced by your choice of the Beautiful) I would probably stick with the 10000 or the 13000 because you have more options this way and a 3" top layer would be a bit softer than 2" even though it will be firmer than the Beautiful.

Overall ā€¦ I think you need to simplify and talk to a single voice that knows the most about the mattresses you are considering and I would do your best to ā€œeliminateā€ the theory and use the advice of the one who knows the most about every detail of their mattresses.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix here we are weeks later still in a battle with the retailer where we bought the plb beautiful 60 days ago. They will not let us exchange it for a different srize quoting some company policy which they have yet to show is in writing. We were all set to xch for a queen size for the guest room- our plan based on what we thought we understood about their comfort exch policy and then we were going to start over with sleepez for our king. Our choices at this store are even less than before as they have since clearanced out all the ā€œold styleā€ plb line; i.e w/o the active fusion. I was going to get the nature if we had to choose a king from them but those are totally gone. They wonā€™t get the new ones in for another month but I do not like the new ones anyway- tried it at another store in the pamper and the gel gave it a memory foam slow response feel and it felt even firmer if thats possible.
Since they are requiring us to set up the return with the exch mattress we cannot wait for any new ones anyway. Today is actually our last day to do anything. I am having to choose from their current stock which is not much selecton by the time I eliminate all the temper pedic beds and other memory foam beds, which are not even a consideration. They have currently for latex is dr. Breus beds which Iā€™ve read very mixed reviews. The other option is a coil in either beauty rest, sterns & foster or rest & restore. After having a coil mattress for years I do not want to purchase another one. The last option is they do have one clearance floor model pamper in king. Its been obviously ā€œtried outā€ on the showroom floor for a long time. Marks on the fabric etc. they do not have anymore in stock nor can they order more of this old style plb models. i hate that they refuse to work with us on exch for a diff size and we are being forced to choose between bad and worse. My question for you is if we take that last dirty pamper(at a sig price reduction ) I would then buy layers from sleepez to customize it. I layed on it in the store with and without the 2" very soft 14 old topper they have for about 2 hours. I was not going to not give it my all! What I found was way too firm, i was bottoming out with the topper, and my backside was going numb. Adding sleepez layers I would either get one or two single piece toppersā€¦ Maybe a soft and a med. or a ā€œ7000ā€ series which would allow split sides and one case for both layers and put it on top of the pamper. We talked with Shawn At length. However my husband is still concerned that after all this time and money weā€™d end up with some Jerry-rigged bed and not a ā€œrealā€ bed. He is worried that that with the extra covers for the layers or toppers that it would change the feel of it entirely. Also worried that thst 1" of 19 ILD on top of the pamper would somehow undermine or change the support and/or feel of the added layers above. I would really appreciate your thoughts and opinions. And I know you always respond so quickly, but I hope you see this in time b4 we finalize things with famous tate today! I really feel like our backs are up against the wall and it is no use arguing with them anymore. Also if you have an opinion about any of the other beds I mentioned we are able to choose from. Thank you !!

Hi candcsmom,

FWIW ā€¦ The same size for same size exchange policy is pretty standard in the industry.

Your comments make me wonder if you really werenā€™t lying on one of the Hybrid 3.0 models with active fusion slow response latex whch has the response and feel you are mentioning.

With a 2" 14 ILD topper it doesnā€™t surprise me that you are ā€œgoing throughā€ it to the firmer layers below and paradoxically enough a firmer topper would likely feel softer to you because you wouldnā€™t go through it as easily. A thicker topper would feel softer as well and may be necessary because of the firmness of the Pamper base layer.

He is probably just used to the types of conventional mattresses that he normally sees but a suitable base mattress (which the Pamper is) and a topper is just as much a legitimate sleeping system as anything else and has several advantages over a finished mattress. It gives you the ability to customize your comfort layer and also to replace just a single layer rather than an entire mattress if the top layer softens faster than the deeper layers of the mattress (which is likely) or if your needs or preferences change down the road. A topper would certainly change the feel of the mattress below it but that the reason you would buy the topper in the first place. To me it is a much more versatile sleeping system than just a finished mattress and IMO it is the best option you have available.

The 1" comfort layer wouldnā€™t be thick enough to compromise support with a topper. The mattress is a good design for adding a topper (and part of the reason they designed it this way) and many stores sell more Pamper/topper combinations than any other of the PLB lineup. By going elsewhere for your topper you have many more options for a topper available to you at a better price.

All of the other mattresses you are mentioning would have ā€œweak linksā€ in terms of materials and construction that the Pamper doesnā€™t have and the Pamper is the only one that uses high quality materials from top to bottom and can be used to ā€œcustomizeā€ the comfort layer(s) to your preference. It certainly seems to me like the best option. The ā€œtrickā€ would then be choosing the best topper for it.

The odds are fairly good that a single topper would probably be OK but the ā€œbestā€ choice would depend on your body type, sleeping positions, and preferences. You could at least start with one and then add another if necessary (and they also credit a layer purchase towards the purchase of a mattress if you decide to go in that direction). You could also choose two twin XL toppers and split the comfort layer but you may also need anther thin layer over this to even out the split so that you wouldnā€™t feel it because with two different toppers on top of the mattress and just bedding over this you would likely feel the split between them (even though this may still be a tradeoff you would prefer).

Hope this helps.

Phoenix

Phoenix thank you for your timely thorough and thoughtful reply! I wish other industries had people like you to educate the consumers! Weā€™d all be better off:). Anyway just need to give you a quick update. Walked into the store yesterday to buy that last pamper and it had sold less than hour before I got there!! I literally burst into tears as my options had gone from ok to none. Lack of sleep and frustrationā€¦ Well you get the picture. After walking around with the salesman for 30 min and him now also realizing the lack of comparable selection of their current stock in a king size, and after a couple of phone calls they made an exception and will let us swap out for a queen . I wanted to keep it under $1000 and no memory foamā€¦ Just a good ā€œhotelā€ quality bed for the guest room. That left me with 3 choicesā€¦ A beauty rest firm - way too firm in IMO even with the 2" latex topper, a beauty rest pillowtop-plush - way too soft IMO and subject to the perils of our current old sterns& foster with the ā€œcave in effectā€ after about 5 years of use. Or a 3rd innerspring option with foam but Iā€™m not sure exactly what kind of foam it is. The salesman told me it was not memory foam but I havenā€™t been able to confirm. The mattress is an englander heritage collection ā€œPlymouthā€ firm. The picture on the tag shows it has smart gelā€¦To me it looks like memory foam the way the handprint leaves an impression in the picture. The salesman said its convuluted foam with gel weaved through it. Are you familiar with this mattress and model and perhaps know whatā€™s in it? Comfort wise it actually felt great the short time we tried it- the best of the 3- when I put the 2" latex topper over it. Longevity and durability are not as much a factor in this decision as it will be used occasionally for guest bed, however I still want to know whatā€™s in it! I am afraid of purchasing anything with memory foam in it due to a bad experience in the last. Even though its for the guest room we will use it in the interim until we but a DIY latex mattress on line from sleepez. Lastly I had wanted to know about the coil count and design. He told me it was the same pocketed type as the beauty rest just not wrapped and that the coils were almost the same type and number. Again the picture did not seem to support. I got the impression that at this point he was just telling me what I wanted to hear in order to be done with me. All I would like is knowledgeable, factual information which is where you come in, once again :). Thank you!

Hi candcsmom,

At least thatā€™s good news :slight_smile:

Englander has what they call E-Gel which is pure gel cylinders that are added to memory foam but their ā€œsmart gelā€ is different and probably just memory foam with gel added to it in some form much like most of the other major manufacturers are using in one form or another (see post #2 here). Like most major manufacturers though ā€¦ they provide little to no information about the contents and layers in their mattresses and without this there is no way to make any meaningful assessments about it. Englander makes different mattresses in different areas of the country and while it would be great if a retailer provided the layering information ā€¦ the odds of this happening are slim.

I wish I could provide you with more information but the information online about them is limited and vague at best. The odds are good that it uses some better quality materials along with some lower quality materials but the good news is that it will be used for a guest bedroom so the materials wonā€™t wear as fast as they would if they were being used daily.

This is complete nonsense. If the coils are not wrapped then they are not pocket coils and would be a completely type of coil that had helicals such as a Bonnell or Offset coil. Coil count is not an effective way to compare different types of innerspring units.

Phoenix

Thanks. Phoenix. Here at the store one last time laying on the Englander while I post my final reply and before writing up the exchange order. Thank you again for all your invaluable help! Ilā€™ll post an update in the future after sleeping on the latex king size mattress weā€™ll eventually get from Sleepez or perhaps Arizona mattressā€¦ Both companies you speak highly of.

Hi candcsmom,

Thanks for keeping us up to date :slight_smile:

It would be interesting to see just how much information they have available about the Englander (even though it is probably your best choice regardless). It is always amazing to me that a retailer canā€™t phone the factory and at least find out some of the information even if they canā€™t get all the information. The information exists (someone designs and makes the mattress that uses specific grades and densities of foam and other components) ā€¦ itā€™s just that somewhere along the way between the designer of the mattress and the consumer this information gets ā€œlostā€ or ā€œburiedā€.

Iā€™m looking forward to your feedback on the ā€œnext roundā€ of mattress purchasing when the time comes.

Phoenix

ok will do. The Englander gets delivered on Tues. Weā€™ll be sleeping on it until after the New Yearā€¦ then ā€œround 2ā€ starts :slight_smile: