I’m still behind you…interested to see how it turns out!
To answer your first question, I traded the Zenhaven for a Sleeping Organic (med dunlop, soft dunlop, x-soft talalay). Still not quite plush enough, possibly because their cover is so thick and heavy.
Considered adding an x-soft talalay topper but didn’t because the first talalay had, and still does, such a strong smell I couldn’t have dealt with it outside the cover. The dunlop had almost no smell.
Thanks for the extra beta!
Yes, I’ve had a topper for almost a year that still has the scent. I think it only goes away to a degree. Wow, that is a pretty soft construction…did you ever try it without the cover? I read some reviews of SO that said the cover was an impediment for some people.
For plushness…I wonder if a raw topper or topper encased in stretch fabric would give you what you seek? Toppers can move around you a bit more and feel “plusher”.
I also wonder if the energy rebound of latex is what is part of your personal assessment of “plush.” Have you tried a foam (energy absorbing instead of rebounding) topper just to see how it feels?
Yes, but without the cover the smell is overpowering. Instant headache/eyes watering. And no, I’m not going back to foam anything! lol
And sorry, the med dunlop, soft dunlop, x-soft talalay config is what I’ll have once the soft dunlop exchange gets here in a few days. Right now I have firm, med, x-soft with a 2" Pure Green (soft, 20 ILD) topper - no smell. If the new config helps enough I’ll exchange the 2" for a 3". If not I’ll return everything and diy. I may diy anyway, I think the SO encasement is why this mattress sleeps hot while the Zenhaven did not with the same topper, etc.
The firmer config was because I was trying to sleep on my back. That did solve shoulder/hip pain. It was amazing. But even with a knee roll or raising the head and foot on my adjustable bed, I developed new, even worse pain in my lower back. I’m just going to have to go plusher and exercise/stretch shoulders and hips so I can get as comfortable as possible on my side.
Interesting…I wonder if there’s a little something blended into the “natural” latex that doesn’t agree with you. I don’t think there’s such a thing as 100% talalay…more like 96%…
Other than the instant headache, was it comfier on your body to ditch the cover? That would be good info to have for DIY.
It sounds like you’ve got a lot of layers to play with and get it right either on this bed or a DIY! Even if you have to switch the working talalay layers for dunlop.
It could be the cover, but it could also be warmer because it’s softer. The more you sink in, the more you’re “covered up”.
So sorry about all the pain! Who knew mattresses were so tricky…Zenhaven told me they only had a 5% return rate and I’m like…how.
Same with dunlop. The 100% just means (supposedly) no synthetic rubber.
And yes, the new setup should clarify the diy if I go that route. Of course ILDs are not the same from one seller to the next. Foamorder.com says their GOLS dunlop soft is 11-18. Never seen dunlop that soft. SO’s soft dunlop is 18-22, Pure Green 20. So it’s a dice roll and the return shipping from here to CA would not be cheap!
Actually, this config is not that much softer than the Zenhaven with the topper. If I diy I’ll probably go with DIY Bedding’s knit encasement. Then cover that with a thin, breathable, waterproof 360 for durability to test for heat.
Thanks for your help. I’ll let you know how it goes when I get my replacement layer and start shuffling things around.
Thanks for your input! I feel you on the dice roll and return shipping; it’s so hard without a good local place to shop. Same boat. I hope it works out for you!
Got my exchange layer today. Removed the cover top and placed topper directly on the talalay top layer. Definitely softer and probably cooler but can’t sleep on it because of the smell.
I think you may be right about “something blended into the “natural” latex” that’s giving me problems. This smell is way too overpowering to just be latex. Window open with strong fan for 2 hours and still couldn’t sleep in here.
So now I have med dunlop 26-32, soft dunlop 18-22, x-soft talalay 14-18, inside the cover and 2" 20 topper. Feels pretty good but of course I won’t really know until the morning.
Even if it sleeps well I may still return the SO and diy. Despite the hassle of re-compressing and the risk. Several things about SO have been pretty sketchy and I don’t want to breathe whatever fumes are leaking from the cover. I’m also pretty sure I can build a cooler mattress.
At least I’m learning what will work for me.
Crazy the smell is so intense! I have a box of natural Dunlop and Talalay samples sitting open in my room and while it did have a faint odor of, I don’t know, vanilla cake? I can’t smell anything now, a few weeks later. I wonder if the supplier and how it is stored makes a difference? What does it smell like? My topper does have a little doughnut smell that I notice when I go to bed, but even brand new it was slight. I can be especially sensitive to anything that smells artificial so I’m feeling like I might have dodged a bit of a bullet! I’m also wondering what the heck is in your latex…
Agreed. My dunlop layers have a slight vanilla latex rubber smell. Like my topper when it was new. Kinda like it 
And yeah, I’m wondering what the heck is in my latex too!
Hey lotus14,
Thank you for you great interactions, and the other DIY posts. I am following the back and forth conversation, and just wanted to ask, what was the exchange layer you most recently received from SO that had a smell that didn’t agree with you (smell is so personal to every single individual)?
Thank you as always sweetandsourkiwi for you nice and helpful interactions with other consumer members.
Thanks
Sensei
Actually the exchange layer (another GOLS dunlop) had very little smell, just like the original 2 dunlop layers. A faint, pleasant, vanilla/latex rubber smell.
The original 3" 100% talalay x-soft comfort layer still has an incredible, eye-watering smell. It has been inside their very thick cover for about 2 weeks and the smell hasn’t changed.
I would have done so sooner, but now that I have the exchange layer I’m airing it out on a guest bed to see if that helps.
Thanks Sensei! Okay, lotus14, if the vanilla smell isn’t what’s bothering you, my inexpert opinion is that something is way off on the 100% talalay topper. I have two and they both just have that faint cookie odor.
In unrelated news, I returned to the mattress store to do some testing. I was surprised with all the knowledge I have now, how cheaply made the mattresses seemed now to me, going in. I think mostly that’s conveyed to the eye and hand by the cover…I didn’t realize how high-end the Zenhaven cover feels until I compared it what else is out there—lots of polyester and thin stretch-knit. I don’t know how much this influences the actual performance of the bed (seems like warmth would be a factor?), but I noticed the only comparable beds in surface feel were the $5k Naturepedics. (And they felt kinda similar just laying on them too! Guess dunlop doesn’t feel so different once it’s packed in there.)
I was presented with a lot of very complicated beds that appeared to be made from polyfoams and memory foam of unknown densities, but of course they don’t give you details and you can’t find anything online.
Crazy how different the experience is once you know something. My bed may not be perfect for me, but I am impressed with how much higher end it feels after visiting a bunch of more expensive but lesser quality mattresses.
(And of course I realize comparing a mattress store to online retailers isn’t apples to apples…they have to pay more employees, lease the showroom, etc.)
I also found most mattresses offered some degree of pressure under my shoulder that I found undesirable, even if it’s not quite as much as I have now. At a certain point I may just have to concede that it’s not negotiable, or at least not worth the tradeoffs for support.
Thanks sweetandsourkiwi and Sensei. I suspect you’re both right, the offensive talalay I have now has only aired for 24 hrs, but if there’s a vanilla cookie smell in there it’s completely masked by the chemical smell.
Either the latex was made with some particularly noxious chemicals, or more likely as Sensei pointed out, the latex wasn’t properly washed during production.
So, unless I get a config that doesn’t involve the talalay, this mattress will be returned and I’ll have to diy.
Yes, most mattress stores have awful options that sound and sometimes feel great. My last was a Beautyrest Platinum Hybrid that cost me almost 2K and lasted only 2 years. 2 years of sleeping on a hot plate that is! No more memory foam anything for me, and I don’t want a lot of the latest bells and whistles inside a mattress that are probably going to fail sooner rather than later.
The first 3 or so inches of the Beautyrest’s comfort layer that allowed my shoulders to sink in collapsed so that the mattress became unbearable. My niece loves it though! But then she was sleeping on a mattress that felt like a pile of old blankets.
The x-plush setup I had with the talalay in it and the 2" topper is MUCH better than anything I’d tried for side sleeping. Yet because of latex’s buoyancy, it still felt supportive to my hips and back. So don’t give up on finding more pressure relief without sacrificing enough support!
I’m still really hoping I can find a setup that lets me sleep on my back. My whole body thanked me every morning! Except my lower back. Perhaps I didn’t give it enough time for my body to adjust. I’m trying a different setup (all dunlop - firm, med, soft) and no topper which I now realize was letting my hips sink and arching my back. It feels quite firm (but without Zenhaven’s lumbar support which I hated). So much so that I’m using a firm, thick mattress pad as a comfort layer.
Gotta make the final back or side sleeper decision before I pull the trigger on a diy.
I wonder…has the manufacturer stepped in at all? “Eye watering” seems extreme—maybe they would be willing to replace it before you have to start over?
Good to know you were able to get a good setup for side sleeping! I tried two 1.5" layers of 14 ILD talalay, but the 3" total of 14ILD unencased was just TOO floofy…my low back was sore in 3 days. Then again…the separate layers and the fact they were outside the mattress both would contribute to a really soft feel; maybe too soft.
Jury’s out on the lumbar support on the Zenhaven for me. It’s under the topper for me, so the effect is dampened but…I think I like it? I’m not sure.
Haven’t asked SO about it. I’m sure they would say it will subside with time. And it may. Don’t notice it when the cover is zipped up and I’ve aired out the room. But now I know the fumes are slowly leaking out. Grr…
Still not sure I’ve got the perfect setup for side sleeping but it’s better than I’ve had for a very long time. That’s worth a lot. Really need to get motivated to stretch and work out as much as I can.
Have you tried 3" 19-21 ILD? Or even a little firmer? Sleep on Latex will take a topper back no questions asked at no cost. Same deal for blended talalay @ www.mattresstopper.com. Nothing to lose but a sore shoulder ^.~
I’m sure there are others but perhaps you’ve tried that route already.
Speaking on smell alone, each manufacturer’s latex will have a different smell based on their formula. Over the past seven years, whether I have been working with natural or organic latex, I have found that the smell is linked more to the manufacturer than the quality. For example, Arpico’s latex has that sweet, vanilla smell, both their organic and their natural. Latex Green’s and Innergetic’s latex both have more of a cleaning agent smell, no matter whether it is organic or natural.
Are you sensitive to smells? While most people notice the latex’s smell faintly, they tend to not be bothered by it or get used to it after a few days. Perhaps there is something amiss with your latex but perhaps your body is playing a part in your reaction too?
Including my exchange layer I’ve had 4 dunlop layers and 1 talalay from Sleeping Organic. All of the dunlop layers have the faint vanilla cookie smell. The talalay has a definite chemical smell. I also have a topper from Sleep On Latex that has little smell. I don’t think it’s my nose.
Sleeping Organic’s supplier obviously uses a different production line for their talalay and dunlop, else they use a different supplier altogether. The talalay was probably not washed well enough before drying and shipping.
The smell isn’t strong enough to bother me as long as it’s in their heavy encasement, but I don’t like the idea of the fumes slowly leaking into my room and lungs!
Yes, of course, Talalay and Dunlop processed latex use different formulas because they rely on different methods of stabilization. Dunlop needs certain foaming agents and while Talalay needs them too, it relies more on the flash freezing to stabilize the foam.
Sleeping Organic’s website lists 3 different countries (Sri Lanka, Malaysia and Thailand), that produce their latex, so it is very likely that your different layers came from multiple locations.
Not to diminish your experience, because I’m sure you know your latex and your body’s reactions to it, I think it is wise to use our terms carefully when we speak of fumes. Cars give off fumes, paint thinner gives off fumes, welding gives off fumes, latex does not give off fumes. Fumes are hazardous. Fumes and off-gassing (which latex and honestly, most foams do not do) can be carcignogenic or lung damaging and at least can cause lightheadedness. Latex certainly can have an odor and it can be offensive to some. That offense does not mean the smell is harmful. Some foams and all flame-retardants and silica fire retardant socks degrade to a powder, which is then breathed in through contact with the room dust.
Could breathing in latex be hazardous? Yes, if you have an a type I latex allergy. But that hazard is based on the proteins in the latex rather than the smell.
Hey diynaturalbedding,
Thank you for the expert information added in this thread. You are spot on with your point about “each manufacturer’s latex will have a different smell based on their formula”. I would add that it is really each manufacturer has a different smell based on their entire “manufacturing process” as all parts of the production, especially the washing and drying effects the smell of the finished product. Which I am sure you know this already with your years of experience and from reading your comments.
And your point about “fumes” is really well said!
Thank you,
Sensei