Coil count? What's the mystery? Help me make my final decision

[AlisonC37]

Hello there,

I am at 3+ months of mattress hunt and let me tell you I want this to end. I’m coming here for some help on what I hope will be my final decision.

For the last 3 years, I’ve been sleeping on a sinking innerspring mattress + 2 inches gel memory foam topper from wayfair. I have had upper back pain for the last year and a half and never thought it was because of my mattress, but because of the sedentary lifestyle due to lockdown and bad working from home set-up. Anyways, I’ve been looking for a new mattress.

After reading for a decent time this forum/website, I decided to go with the Silk & Snow (The S&S Mattress - Silk & Snow Canada). Specs for this mattress seemed okay but finally it was way too soft for me, making my lower back pain worse.

I then told myself I would forget about all-foam mattress and would just buy a solid innerspring mattress to have a firm support and would then add a 1" inch memory foam topper in high density to get some pressure relief. With that idea in mind, I bought the Haugesund in firm mattress from Ikea as the specs seemed okay too (Shop Quality & Affordable Products - IKEA CA ). What a bad idea, it just made things even worse. The foam in the comfort layers is indeed firm, but the core of the mattress isn’t supportive enough so my hips are sinking too much. But because the foam is too firm, my middle back/upper back/ribs don’t sink and therefore I end up with an even more pronounced misalignment of the spine (hope that makes sense) (for the record I am only 120 lbs…). I have never been so sleep deprived. To improve things a little bit I put my old gel foam topper that I have been using for 3 years, it’s not that bad anymore but it still not ideal at all.

Here I am on my mattress hunt, again. I’ve been doing some mattress testing at Sleep Country (I live in Toronto, Canada) but it’s impossible to get specs for their mattress, even when you contact the brand (Serta, etc.). They just expect you to make a blind purchase at this point. I went to visit the showroom of the manufacturer Dreamstar, told Andy the vendor that I was looking for a properly supportive mattress and was recommended the Orthopedic supreme. I laid down on it for 10 minutes but it wasn’t doing it for me. I went home and thought about how hard it is to just find some good support. It is so basic but so hard to find. I went back and tried it again for 10 minutes but then I was sure it wasn’t for me as it was giving me the same feeling I have with my current Ikea mattress (pressure on middle/upper back, hips sinking too much). Hopeless, I tried the Prestige firm and I instantly felt what I was looking for: support. My hips weren’t sinking and I could feel like I was sleeping on something horizontal, but with just enough pressure relief. Going back on the website these 2 mattresses are pretty similar in their construction. The only difference seems the number of coils (see below) but I was told that the number of coil doesn’t determine the firmness/quality of the support. I need to understand what makes the difference in the feel, if there is anyone who can give me some insight I would really appreciate. I want to make that purchase, sleep on it, heal my back and move on with my life.

Thank you for reading me and many thanks in advance!

Prestige firm
2" soy bio high density foam (was told by the vendor that foam is 1.8lb)
9" double tempered 13 gauge pocket coil
Coil count (FULL): 738
Total mattress height is 14"
More info: https://dreamstarbedding.com/products/prestige-firm

Orthopedic supreme firm
2" soy bio hight density foam (1.8lb)
9" double tempered 13 gauge pocket coil
Coil count (full): 682
More info: https://dreamstarbedding.com/products/orthopedic-supreme-firm

[Basilio]

Hi AlisonC37, and welcome to The Mattress Underground
Glad to have you here!

For the last 3 years, I’ve been sleeping on a sinking innerspring mattress + 2 inches gel memory foam topper from wayfair. I have had upper back pain for the last year and a half and never thought it was because of my mattress, but because of the sedentary lifestyle due to lockdown and bad working from home set-up

Sorry to hear of the back pain you are experiencing. As you say, it could be due to sedentary habits, improper posture, or the mattress you are using. Remember all mattresses are unique to the sleepers using it, based on their stats(height, BMI, sleeping position(s) and any underlying health issues, and their PPP(posture and alignment, pressure relief, and personal preferences). One persons’ idea of firm is too soft for another person this is why its’ best to try out mattresses in person, as you have done, to see what sort of mattress and materials feel most comfortable for you. If you have not done so, you may want to take a look at theMattress Shopping Tutorial, as well as the Mattress Specifications you need to know, and ourMattress Durability Guidelines to get an idea of what to look for when you shop, the various materials and components used, and how different materials hold up over time.

, I decided to go with the Silk & Snow (The S&S Mattress - Silk & Snow Canada). Specs for this mattress seemed okay but finally it was way too soft for me, making my lower back pain worse.

I then told myself I would forget about all-foam mattress and would just buy a solid innerspring mattress to have a firm support and would then add a 1" inch memory foam topper in high density to get some pressure relief. With that idea in mind, I bought the Haugesund in firm mattress from Ikea as the specs seemed okay too

. The foam in the comfort layers is indeed firm, but the core of the mattress isn’t supportive enough so my hips are sinking too much. But because the foam is too firm, my middle back/upper back/ribs don’t sink and therefore I end up with an even more pronounced misalignment of the spine (hope that makes sense) (for the record I am only 120 lbs…). I have never been so sleep deprived. To improve things a little bit I put my old gel foam topper that I have been using for 3 years, it’s not that bad anymore but it still not ideal at all.

Well done in ruling out the Silk & Snow; the mattress raises no red flags for a lower BMI sleeper, but as you say its ‘too soft’. You should contact a health practitioner if possible, as you say you felt ‘more pronounced misalignment’ on the Silk&Snow – this could indicate more serious issues. Most mattresses will take several weeks to ‘break in’ to see if it is truly comfortable for you, but if you feel sore after only a few minutes, its’ probably not compatible for you.

Here I am on my mattress hunt, again. I’ve been doing some mattress testing at Sleep Country (I live in Toronto, Canada) but it’s impossible to get specs for their mattress, even when you contact the brand (Serta, etc.). They just expect you to make a blind purchase at this point

Another bit of education for you! Many of the ‘big box’ retailers are not transparent about the specifications and details of the materials used in their mattresses, which may indicate excessive amounts of inexpensive low density foams. I agree they make it very hard to make an informed choice when shopping.

Hopeless, I tried the Prestige firm and I instantly felt what I was looking for: support. My hips weren’t sinking and I could feel like I was sleeping on something horizontal, but with just enough pressure relief. Going back on the website these 2 mattresses are pretty similar in their construction. The only difference seems the number of coils (see below) but I was told that the number of coil doesn’t determine the firmness/quality of the support. I need to understand what makes the difference in the feel, if there is anyone who can give me some insight I would really appreciate. I want to make that purchase, sleep on it, heal my back and move on with my life.

Excellent! The salesperson was correct; the gauge and number of coils do not necessarily indicate the firmness of the mattress; The pocket coils provide overall support for the mattress but the comfort and support layers above this are what the sleeper ‘feels’. Both mattresses you listed seem to be good, and a topper should provide additional support if you find you need it. As long as the retailer allows a decent ‘trial period’ over 90 days you should be able to tell if it is supportive enough for you. The Orthopedic Supreme Firm has an additional lumbar support layer; they are both contain CertiPUR certified polyurethane foam and are made in Canada – have you tested out the Orthopedic Supreme? I think at this point its’ entirely a personal preference, as you say you found the support you were looking for when trying out the Prestige. Perhaps other forum members can chime in with their experience with these…Either way it sounds like you have found a great mattress!

~ Basilio

[AlisonC37]

Update!

Thank you @Basilio for your response! I went with the Prestige Firm and… it didn’t work out. The first few months were okayish. I had a feeling I hadn’t found exactly what I was looking for but I was exhausted by the whole process of searching for a mattress and wanted to move on with my life. Well, after 4 months of use the foam on top started to wear out and at 6 months the mattress had lost it’s support. Full of frustration, I decided I could do a mattress surgery and replace the top layers. I bought a 3" firm latex topper from SleepOnLatex that I added on top of the pockets coils. The firm topper is indeed very firm. I woke up with arm and shoulder pain. What I still don’t understand though is that I didn’t feel any pressure on my hip bone. Usually when I sleep on a firm surface I can feel a pressure point on my hip bone but in that situation it seems like the hips are not stopped from sinking. I feel like I am sleeping slightly inclined. I am wondering if the pocket coils are to blame here. I have been researching information about pocket coils, some people are saying they can be soft. I never thought coils could be too soft and would in fact be the firmer support you can find, but it seems like latex in base layers can offer more support than pocket coils (?). I added a 1" soft layer of latex on top of the firm and I slept better, my upper back didn’t hurt in the morning but my lower back did. I was wondering if someone could provide insights as to what might be the problem in my situation? Is the sinking due to the pocket coils?

As a side note, I am sleeping on this bed frame: BRIMNES Bed frame with storage, white/Luröy, Queen - IKEA CA

Thanks in advance!

[Basilio]

Hi AlisonC37,

Sorry to hear that your mattress did not hold up very long! As far as the latex and pocket coils…it’s possible that there could be a worn area since you feel your hip ‘sinking’ but the latex is too firm for your upper body causing pain and numbness; one area you might consider is the IKEA Brimnes base.

Unlike a ‘slatted’ base, it appears this unit has rails on the sides and ‘cross bars’ attached at the corners and midway on the side, forming an ‘octagon’ shape, which leaves much of the surface area without support beneath it. Though the storage drawers add some amount of support, there is space between the crossbars and rails and the storage area…I’m assuming you have the companion product to your frame; is it this this flexible slat system?:

This in itself may create a problem as most mattresses on the market are not designed to sit on a flexible slat surface, especially your pocket coil unit…Is this the slat surface you are using? if not, what slats are you sing? In a normal ‘slatted’ frame for example, the slats are spaced less than 3" apart, run the length of the mattress, commonly with a ‘cross brace’ in the center. You might try putting the latex layer on the floor to see how it feels. Do you still have shoulder pain? How does your hip feel? It sounds like one possibility is the topper is too firm - as the addition of a 1" soft topper relieved your upper back pain but hurt your lower back…your hip bone in that case may be sinking in to ‘bottom out’ on the firm latex layer below. When you put the latex on the floor and lay down on your side, your back should look the same from the rear as it does from behind when you are standing.

A little fine tuning may be needed here…add the soft topper, now is your back no longer straight? How does your hip feel? Finding the final part of the equation may take a little more consideration…You could also see how the pocket coils feel to your hand, then again push lightly where your hips would be - is there a difference? The pocket coil layer for the prestige firm has 9" 13 gauge double tempered coils, with a coil count of 968 for the queen; I don’t see any edge support listed so the coils should have the same firmness across the whole layer. You could even briefly try laying on the pocket coils to see exactly what is going on ‘under the hood’ so to speak.

A DIY mattress like the one you are working on, can be the most rewarding - as you can ‘fine tune’ the support and comfort to suit you - but as you are finding, it can also be frustrating as it can take time, effort, and consideration to dial it in. It can also take anywhere from 4-6 weeks to ‘break in’ the SOL latex topper, and your body acclimate itself to the new latex as well; it sounds like you have had the topper for a month? A medium firm topper may also work where the soft one didn’t…if none of what I suggested identifies the ‘weak link’, trying a different firmness topper may be something to consider. You are very close to a finished build, just a little more ‘tweaking’ should bring it together.

~ Basilio

[hester]

Hi Alison C37,
Just a point of information. SoL latex is firmer than most. If your purchase was recently you might exchange that 3" firm for Medium. And add soft on top. I would try Basilio’s suggestion and try the latex on the floor.
I really personally love latex. Ymmv.
Good luck

[Basilio]

Thanks @hester! Good to have another data point on SOL!

~ Basilio

[AlisonC37]

Here is my update. Thank you @Basilio for following up and @hester for your input!

We put the mattress on the floor and the feeling was the same: hips sinking. Laying on the coils only: hips were sinking. Even pressing on the coils with our hands we can feel the coils are very soft. Though, laying down on the toppers only on the floors and the problem was fixed: no sinking hips, just enough pressure relief from the 1" soft topper with proper support from the 3" firm underneath… It’s relieving to find the root of the problem but incredibly frustrating to have to throw away a $1000 6 month old mattress…

Anyways. We also looked at the central bar of the bed frame as you mentioned Basilio and it doesn’t seem to be bending when we put pressure on it. The slats are more than 2.5inches apart so we might have to fix that if we are going with a full latex mattress. We thought about purchasing another set of slats from ikea and just double up the slats system, do you think that would that work?

I am still in the return window for the firm topper I have, I thought I might return it and purchase a latex mattress of 6"inches in firm and then fine tune the top layers. I looked into SoL latex mattress but I am not too happy with their 2" inches of medium on top, I would prefer a maximum of 1" of medium not to risk losing support. I am based in Canada so I was looking at local options and found a 6" inches latex mattress with choice of firmness: https://www.naturelleorganicbeds.ca/online-store/Green-Apple-Double-100-Organic-Latex-Mattress-50-Off-p36136803. This other manufacturer also proposes a 6" with choice of firmness: 6" Organic Latex Mattress l Made in Vancouver l Sleep Majestic - Sleep Majestic

They both seem good on paper, but I only have trust in SoL latex as I have only tried their, so I am a little worried about trying something else. Is there any red flag in the ones I mentioned above or a very important question I should be asking the manufacturer?

Thank you again for your help!

[hester]

Hi again AlisonC37,

I am still in the return window for the firm topper I have, I thought I might return it and purchase a latex mattress of 6"inches in firm and then fine tune the top layers. I looked into SoL latex mattress but I am not too happy with their 2" inches of medium on top, I would prefer a maximum of 1" of medium not to risk losing support.

The Sleep on Latex medium is quite firm, imho. I don’t think you’d lose support, ymmv.
Please remember to fix the slat issue before you test out a mattress. 2.5" really is the maximum and it makes a difference. I doubt doubling up on slats would work. It’s the space between the slats that’s key.

I think the standard 6" would be great to build on and you add a topper from Sleep on Latex if you want. Just make sure you can return that mattress if you need too.

Good luck
hester

[AlisonC37]

Thanks @hester! I have never tried the medium from SoL so I would prefer not to do a blind purchase on this one.

Regarding the frame, the two pairs of slats would be set besides one another, not on top of each other. There is no other away really to reduce the distance between each slats…

[Basilio]

Hi AlisonC37,

On the plus side, you identified the ‘weak link’ in your sleep system; sorry that you have found the mattress is not usable for you. I would suggest caution as you plan on using 2 slat units beside each other - slats are made to provide a singular structurally sound support base for a mattress…make sure you are not using them in a non-recommended fashion, as this can cause damage to the mattress as well as cause comfort and support issues. I would check with the mattress manufacturer on recommended bases, and possibly replace those with a more robust slat unit, dependent on what they say.

The Naturelle is 100% organic Dunlop, offered in 3 firmnesses: medium (30-34 ILD), firm (35-42 ILD) and x-firm (44-50 ILD) in a cotton cover. The Sleep Majestic is available in firm (40 ILD) or extra firm (45 ILD), with cotton, Joma wool, or bamboo/polyester cover, and also made of organic Dunlop…there are no obvious ‘red flags’ on either of these manufacturers. At 6" thickness, either can also accommodate an added topper to adjust the comfort level to your preference if needed. Hopefully this is the final piece to your puzzle…Let us know what you finally decide on and how it’s working for you once you’ve had some time with it!

~ Basilio

[hester]

MY bad. Apologies, I"m sure Basilio is right about the slats. I’ll shut up now

[Basilio]

@Hester no worries! Slats are very specific support platforms and doing something that seems to make sense can nonetheless void a warranty or cause discomfort and alignment issues, as well as damaging the slats or mattress…but always feel free to chime in!

~ Basilio