We are in desperate need of a new mattress set ASAP. Of course I want the most comfortable and highest quality bed that we can afford. My husband and I both agreed that we liked the feel of the Tempurpedic Cloud Supreme Breeze the best, so I am completely ready to order the Select Foam Cirrus Supreme but my husband starting investigating Select Foam and now he doesnāt want to order from them. He says heās read bad customer service stuff and doesnāt trust them because heās ānever heard of themā He really wants a Sealy Optimum Radiance or something like that. But I couldnāt find any good info about THAT mattress at all. Their website doesnāt list any of the stuff that itās made out of. So is my choice better than his? If so convince him for me please. TIA!
Hi mollysw,
Iām not sure I can āconvinceā anyone of anything or if I would even want to. My goal is to āeducateā more than āconvinceā so that the ābest choiceā for each individual person will be clear and self evident based on their own personal value equation. In other words ā¦ the goal here is to help people learn āhowā to choose rather than āwhatā to choose so that no matter what they buy they will have reasonable expectations and can make an informed choice.
What I would suggest is encouraging him to at least read the tutorial post which has all the basic information, steps, and guidelines that can help each person make the best possible choice ā¦ and learn how to avoid the worst ones.
Outside of making sure a mattress is a good match in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences), the quality, durability, and useful life of a mattress depends entirely on the quality of its construction and the materials inside it. The ābrandā of a mattress is just a name on a label and has nothing to do with the quality of the mattress or the materials inside it. In terms of the quality of the materials ā¦ the Select Foam mattresses (and some of the others that are also listed on the site) use the same or better quality materials as the equivalent Tempurpedic mattresses they use as a reference point (or the other major brands) and are lower in price which to me would make them a better āvalueā choice but each person may have very different ideas of what they are willing to pay for. To me the ācostā of a major brand label sewn onto a mattress in terms of quality or value is much too high.
I would suggest avoiding any major brands or for that matter any mattress that uses lower quality materials or where you are making a āblindā purchase which is a great recipe for having to repeat the mattress shopping experience much too quickly ā¦ typically 3 - 7 years ā¦ and sometimes much sooner. I would also make sure that you donāt count on a warranty as a way to indicate how long a mattress will last (see post #174 here) or have any expectations that a mattress that has lost its comfort or support and needs replacing in a few years (or sooner) as the result of the softening or breakdown of lower quality materials will be replaced under warranty. Unfortunately ā¦ as you will read in the tutorial post ā¦ there are many people who believe more in āmarketing storiesā than in meaningful or factual information but eventually they will come to recognize (usually after the same cycle repeats a few times) that there is no substitute for for some good research when it comes to making a major purchase which in this case is one of the most important purchases you will make in the next decade or so in terms of the quality of your sleep and overall well being.
You can read a little more about the Radiance and some of the other Sealy Optimum memory foam line in post #48 here.
Hopefully he will decide to spend a couple of hours learning about how to make the best possible choice (and of course if he has any specific questions you are welcome to post them here) and then if you are both on the same page, the rest of your mattress shopping experience will be much easier and you can combine your new found knowledge and energies instead of working against each other.
IMO ā¦ foresight is always a better approach than ābuyers remorseā or the regret that can come with hindsight 
Phoenix
Husband that is trying to be convinced here. :cheer:
Originally me and my wife were looking online for beds from online retailers. After researching I decided on Bed-in-a-Box (Natural Silk Elegance or Serenity GEL with Outlast) due to customer service, BBB A+ no complaints, good reviews, independent testing, certifications, and being local. Another deciding factor is it is produced by NCFI which has been in the business almost 50 years. My wife of course is all in for Select Foam which I am unable to find out anything on beside what is posted on this forum.
So anyway we went out to a local shop and tried out Tempurpedic mattresses and came to the agreement that we liked the Cloud Supreme Breeze. A week later we went to Havertyās(to look at couches) and decided to try out all of the beds disregarding brand or price. I gave each one a test and went back and tested again. It came down to 1st place Sealy Optimum Radiance 2nd place Tempurpdeic Cloud Supreme.
I feel this site favors local and small business owners which is ok, but I feel like the site also puts down major brands just for the simple fact they are major brands. If major brands produced nothing but junk they would be out of business or heading there by now. I have read over the guide posts and other posts in the forum and a lot of decision are made on the density and quality of the type of foam but I say not all foam is created equal (local or major). My wife seems to think from reading this site that if its not recommended here and doesnt have 15lb foam its junk 
.
The question I ask myself is do I want to sleep 100% happy for 7 years(3-4lb foam local/major) or do I want to sleep 80% happy for 9 years(5-7lb foam local/major). I feel like more than likely all of the choices me and my wife picked are all quality and would last but it comes down to which one fits us the most āPPPā
Hi tahoebigah,
Iām glad you made it to the forum ā¦ and welcome. I hope youāve had a chance to spend some time reading the tutorial post and the many links it contains because it deals specifically with many of the comments youāve made ā¦ but Iāll add a few more comments and links here that are specific to your comments.
One of the most important part of making a good mattress choice is knowing how to test a mattress so that your testing has higher odds of being a good match for your actual sleeping experience. The tutorial includes several links about how to do this. Buying a mattress based on āshowroom feelā alone has lower odds of buying the most suitable mattress than random chance alone (see this study) and unfortunatel you canāt āfeelā the quality of the materials in a mattress because lower quality and higher quality materials can feel the same ā¦ at least for a little while.
Again ā¦ the tutorial post goes into much more information about why the major brands arenāt the best quality or value choices and it has nothing to do with the size of the company. Outside of the suitability of a mattress in terms of PPP ā¦ the most important part of a mattress purchase is the quality of the materials. There is little value in buying a mattress that feels great in a showroom when the feel and performance of the mattress only lasts a few years (or less) before it needs to be replaced and the foam softening that leads to the loss of comfort and support isnāt covered by the warranty (which is usually the case). I am the first to applaud any manufacturer ā¦ major brand or otherwise ā¦ that discloses the specific quality of the materials inside it and uses higher quality materials than their competitors because then you can make meaningful comparisons between mattresses in terms of quality and value.
Some of the larger brands are already more open and transparent than others (see this article) and do have some better quality and value mattresses ā¦ but unfortunately the largest manufacturers (the top 5) arenāt in this group. Since all the manufacturers have access to the same materials that they use in their mattresses ā¦ its just a matter of knowing how to make meaningful comparisons. The quality/durability of materials is quantifiable and in spite of the marketing that is rampant in the industry ā¦ there are simple ways that you can know the quality of a mattress regardless of the name of the manufacturer on the label. Being smaller or privately owned also doesnāt mean that you will find a good quality or value mattress because some of the smaller manufacturers also arenāt transparent and donāt make good quality or value mattresses. The key is always to make sure you are dealing with knowledgeable and transparent manufacturers or retailers that have the knowledge and the willingness to be able to tell you what is inside their mattress.
You can read more about about the major manufacturers, the current state of the industry, some of its recent history, and why I started the site in post #12 here and in post #404 here and post #4 here and in post #3 here as well as the articles on the main page of the site and here.
There are hundreds of sources of good quality and value mattresses all across the country and a few of them (currently about 30) are members of this site. If your wife believes that the members of this site are the only good quality and value choices available across the country then she is not correct because there are many. There is more about this in post #5 here.
While itās true that not all foam is created equally and that the quality of the materials in a mattress is second to the suitability of a mattress ā¦ itās also true that in terms of quality and durability that the density of memory foam and polyfoam is the single biggest factor in the durability of a foam regardless of the foam manufacturer. All the North American foam manufacturers make a range of foams from very low to very high quality and they are all closely comparable which is why they are so competitive. Mattress manufacturers of any size have the same or similar choices in terms of the foam manufacturers they choose to use to supply their materials and density comparisons across manufacturers is a meaningful comparison to compare the relative quality or durability of the materials in a mattress. You can read more about the factors that can affect the durability and useful life of a mattress in post #4 here.
I think the most important point is that these arenāt mutually exclusive and you can have both ā¦ if you know how to look and how to research a mattress. Itās also not realistic to expect a mattress that uses lower quality materials to last for 7 years and itās also realistic to expect that a mattress that uses very high quality materials can last you longer than 9 years. There is a much bigger difference than you may realize. In addition to this you can also end up paying twice the cost for a mattress that is no more suitable for you (and perhaps less so) and wonāt last nearly as long as another one that is just as suitable and the same or better quality at a significantly lower price.
Of course each person may have different criteria that are important to them as part of their personal value equation but to me as long as you know what you are buying, know how to make meaningful quality and value comparisons based on factual information rather than marketing hype, and you make a choice that is most suitable for you ā¦ then the site has done itās job and Iām happy. The information you will need is available here but of course what each person does with it is up to them. At least you have accurate and factual information available to you and if you choose to follow the steps of the tutorial post you will have very high odds of making a great choice that will last you for a long time at a great price
Phoenix
Excuse you sir, I never said that I only thought brands recommended from this site were the only good ones. Nor did I ever say that higher density is the only thing that matters. I just want a higher quality mattress that I love as well vs one that I couldnāt even found out what it was made from and read about it not being that durable in terms of longevity.
I have been surfing this site for weeksā¦ I have been following what Pheonix has created to a āTā and I must say that I am so thankful. The one fact that Phoenix reiterates over and over again is āvalueā based on āyour personal preference equationā. What he is doing is bringing a option to light that for many is not readily available or easily accessible. Now, my opinion of this online mattress buying thing is that it is a relatively new concept, cause for some reason google cant dig up the information like it should and many of my searches bring me back here to mattress underground with the exception of Bedinbox and Sleeplikethedead.
The term āvalueā is key and you really need to understand Pheonixs definition of it clearly and this took me over a week. Another term he uses is ātransparentā and it is used in a good sense. Me personally I have a need to know, Iām the kind of person that reads the nutritional facts on the back of food before I eat it. Up until now I never knew.
Here are some hypotheticals: If there were two gas grills side by side and they both looked and performed exactly alike. They were built using all the same quality materials. One was made by King Broil and the other was made by Garys Grills and Gary the owner could prove to you that all his materials and workmanship was identical except for some minor details like badges and labels and handles. He could prove to you that the parts of these grills were both made by US Grill Manufacturing and also reassured you that King Broil doesnāt actually make the grill they just assemble it like he does. He would even goes as far as telling you that he worked for King Grill as a as their manager for 15 years before opening his own business. The King Broil was 4,000 and Garys best was 1500. Gary is now telling you that he will ship to your door for free, give a you free stainless utensil set ($100), a grill cover for ($100) and he will take an additional $100 of the price of the grill. So now your convinced that both grills are exactly the same in quality and workmanship. Gary is willing to take $300 right off the top in discounts and accessories. Well ask your self these questions. How much do you think it cost Gary in materials and labor to make his gas grill and what is his profit margin. Now ask yourself the same question in relation to the King Broil. This would be what I considered āvalueā
Here is another hypotheticalā¦. If I had two cars side by side and I told you one was an Akura and the other was a Honder. If you asked me what the prices are I told you 10,000 for the Honder and 20,000 for the Akura. If you asked me what size motor do the they have and I told you the Honder has a four cylinder and I dont know what the Akura has. If you asked me what material the interior was made from and I told you the Honder is made from leather and the Akura I didnāt know. Would you buy the Akura, maybe or maybe not, I sure there are some that would buy it just cause its an Akura or is it really a Honder. Then it would all come down to personal preference. So say you bought the Akura and then you came home and did a search on google and found out that for some unknown apparent reason that the Akuraās are known to blow gaskets at 80,000 miles. This would describe transparency on the part of Honder and how all the information on their parts and materials are know to you, you will here Pheonix reiterate this quite often. ā¦ basically if the company cant answer simple questions about the materials they use in their mattress then he will encourage you to find this out or discourage you from making the purchase until you do. This would be a good description of what Pheonix would describe as transparency.
Mattress Underground provides you with the tools you need to make a conscious decision, and not āenie meenie minie moeā. It will also provide you with ability to make the best decision possible based on value and your personal likings. If you search this site hard enough you may even find out that some tempurpedics are or once were made from high quality materials and that the mattress itself is of high quality but not just what one would consider the best value when compared to others similar to it.
If you think I am the least bit convincing in anyway shape or form ā¦ Its because I have spent the past week or so reading and searching and listening to phoenix and taking his direction. Direction is all that he will give!!!
This!
What I consider in no particular order (from your list)
Pressure relief
Posture and alignment
Slow or fast response and where in the range you prefer (medium to fast) higher density has slower response time :(.
Sleeping āonā vs āinā the mattress
The ease of movement or movement restriction on the mattress for changing position
Overall āfeelā
after it meets the above I consider the Quality of materials and reviews.
I agree. I want a matresses that I can actually sleep on vs one that is of the best quality yet is extremely uncomfortable. Which is why I like the select foam. We both agreed that we like the feel of the cloud supreme breeze. Therefore we get the comfort we liked with the select foam, as well as the better made mattress. The Sealy I didnāt even care for as much and I donāt know anything about it except itās a "sealy " so ~of course itās good because itās a name brand~
Hi tahoebigah,
For what itās worth, the issue people are trying to avoid isnāt so much a question of should I get a highly durable mattress that lasts 10 years, or a lower durability one that lasts 7 years. If that were the simple case, the cost/benefit justification would make sense per your thinking, tahoebigah, and getting the ideal bed that lasts 7 years would be better than a less ideal bed that lasts 10.
The problem is getting a low quality material, and having the showroom feel go away in less than 1-2 years. Some people report problems in less than 3 months.
Your sensitivity to changes in the mattress, and how suitable it was for you originally, definitely factor inā¦ some people freak if their mattress changes a tiny bit, and some people can sleep on whatever. If you can sleep on whatever, then itās probably irrelevant - that said, since youāre at this website, itās probably because a mattress is worn out in which case the purpose of examining the durability of the materials is to try to avoid an absurdly quick reduction in mattress comfort (i.e. you probably donāt want to be doing this every 2 years).
The risk/return or cost/benefit analysis isnāt about 7 years vs 10, itās around 1-2 years vs 10.
More importantly, while youāre right this website does have several biasās, Phoenix has done something incredibly wise in showing readers HOW to select a mattress suitable for yourself PPP and Personal Value Equation, and not trying to prescribe what to buy.
Please note, in that same way, Iām not necessarily supporting your wifeās argument that you should get a Select Foam mattress either. Only were the Select Foam mattress accomplish a suitable PPP and match your personal value equation would it be a good selection, and Iām by no means supporting that either of those statements are true - thatās for you and your wife to work out
DN,
Thank you for your response. The only thing I think we disagree on is the 7 vs 10 year where you are saying 1/2 vs 10 years. Just because a mattress is a lower density doesnāt mean it is automatically going to fail in 1-2 years who knows it might last 10. If one major company made 4000 mattresses a day thatās 1.46 million a year. If 1.46 million had there mattress fail is 1-2 years I imagine there would be a class action lawsuit and thats just one company that is being called bad. While a few people might have issues after a few years it also depends on other variables ( who is sleeping on it, how are the sleeping on it, manufacturing error, environment its in, picky person, or just bad luck). I say majority of the mattresses made by major and big local mattress businesses are good and last.
Its all about value ā¦ if both mattresses are of the same comfort level as far as PPP and you pay 3000 dollars for a mattress like the tempurpedic cloud luxe and it lasts you ten years it just cost you 300 hundred a year to sleep on that mattress. Now if the cirrus luxe costs 1500 hundred and that mattress lasts you 5 this mattress just cost you 300 per year also. and I would consider them of the same value. To me its all about valueā¦
Get a major brand mattress if thatās your understanding. Nothing about PPP nor personal value equation says anything but how to evaluate for yourself. If youāve done that, youāre good to go. If your bed lasts like you want, youāre right - if it doesnāt, youāre wrong.
As to the philosophical question about class action suit - I donāt know by what basis you feel a class action suit would be viable - thereās no contract thatās been breached, no health or safety issue, no regulation not followed, no fraud, etc. If 100% of the mattresses provably lasted only 1-2 years before becoming substantively different in their feel, I still donāt think youād have a class action suitā¦but short of someone attempting such a class action, neither of us will know the viability.
Are the Serta icomforts and the Sealy optimums similar style memory foam mattresses? In regards to materials used more or less. The Sealys have not been out long at all so itās hard to find a review from people that have had it for year or more, the ones that I have found though said it went bad. But if you look up the Sertas that have been around longer, Iāve read a ton of terrible reviews about them not lasting. And I personally liked the Serta more than the Sealy if I HAD to choose.
Hi tahoebigah,
It would depend on the the specific density and the thickness of any low quality materials and the overall design of the mattress but it would be completely unrealistic to think that lower quality materials would last 10 years or even half of that. Regardless of whether someone would be the rare exception though ā¦ I donāt think that most people would want to knowingly take that kind of risk when higher quality more durable materials and mattresses that were just as suitable in terms of PPP were available in the same or lower price range.
Each person is of course free to believe whatever they believe regardless of the evidence but this certainly isnāt supported by the facts. While itās true that some of the major manufacturer mattresses do use some good quality materials and this can be evaluated on a mattress by mattress basis if you know the specifics of what is inside them ā¦ even when they do they are in much higher price ranges that many other manufacturers that use the same or better quality materials and components.
Phoenix
[quote=āPhoenixā post=30208\
It would depend on the the specific density and the thickness of any low quality materials and the overall design of the mattress but it would be completely unrealistic to think that lower quality materials would last 10 years or even half of that. Regardless of whether someone would be the rare exception though ā¦ I donāt think that most people would want to knowingly take that kind of risk when higher quality more durable materials and mattresses that were just as suitable in terms of PPP were available in the same price range.
Phoenix
[/quote]
This is my point exactly!!
This is all my point exactly!!
Hi mollysw,
They are both in the general āmemory foam mattressā category (except for the versions of the Optimum line that are latex hybrids) but they would each have a very wide range of different designs and materials that are used inside them. Outside of comparing them as a general category ā¦ you would need to compare the specifics of two particular mattresses to make any meaningful comparison.
The Serta iComforts have been very successful commercially because they developed a very successful marketing campaign for their gel memory foam and have a āshowroom feelā that many people like initially. They were the first memory foam mattress that really gained significant traction vs Tempurpedic (and contributed to the decline of Tempurpedics market share and were a big part of Serta passing Sealy to become the largest manufacturer) but this has nothing to do with durability or what people will feel a year or two down the road.
Phoenix
Ok the icomfort savant vs sealys radiance. And for good measure whatās different about those compared to the cloud supreme breeze or even Select Foams Cirrus Supreme?
Hi mollysw,
The specifics of each mattress and the listed prices (queen mattress only) are as follows:
iComfort Savant: Listed (closeout) price here $1374
2" KoolComfort Memory Foam: 5 lb density ā¦ good quality.
1" Comfort Foam: Most likely 1.3 lbs ā¦ low quality.
2 3/4" CoolAction Gel Memory Foam: 4 lb particulate memory foam ā¦ medium quality/density
6" ComfortLast Support Core: 1.5 lb density which is lower quality/density than I would like to see in a mattress in this price range.
Tencel stretch knit cover.
The weak link would be the 1" low quality polyfoam and the slightly lower durability of the gel memory foam which has larger particulates but the higher density memory foam is in the top layer which adds to durability although I would still be cautious and tend to minimize the use of 4 lb memory foam in higher weight ranges. The lower density of the base foam probably wouldnāt affect durability for most people unless they were in a higher weight range.
Sealy Radiance: Listed price here $1499
2" OptiCool Gel Memory Foam: 3.7 lb density ā¦ medium quality density (just a little lower than the minimum 4 lb I use as a minimum guideline for memory foam but still āin the rangeā)
2" OptiSense Memory Foam: 4 lb density ā¦ medium quality/density.
6" Sealy Core: 1.5 lb density which is also lower quality/density than I would like to see in a mattress in this price range.
Outlast cover.
There are no obvious weak links in the mattress but there is more medium density memory foam in this mattress than the others so overall it would be less durable than a combination of 4 and 5 lb memory foam layers. With 4" of 4 lb memory foam I would tend to be a litttle more cautious than the others about the use of 4 lb memory foam in higher weight ranges. The lower density of the base foam probably wouldnāt affect durability for most people unless they were in a higher weight range.
Cloud Supreme Breeze: Listed price here $3199
They donāt provide the specific information about this mattress.
TEMPUR-ESĀ® Breeze material comfort layer: Most likely 2" 4.1 lb gel memory foam ā¦ medium quality/density.
TEMPUR-Climateā¢ material support layer: Most likely 5.3 lb memory foam ā¦ high quality/density
Support Layer: A 3" and a 4" layer of polyfoam which they donāt disclose the density. It used to be 2.2 lbs but there is some evidence that they have now reduced the quality/density to 1.5 lbs.
Microsuede cover
There are no obvious weak links in this mattress. I would tend to be cautious and minimize the use of 4 lb memory foam in higher weight ranges. The lower density of the base foam probably wouldnāt affect durability for most people unless they were in a higher weight range.
Select Foam Cirrus Supreme: Listed price here $1399 (excluding any discount)
2" 4lb soy SELECT-ESā¢ Gel Memory Foam: Medium quality/density memory foam.
2" 5.3lb soy SELECTā¢ GelFoam Support Layer: High quality/density memory foam
7" Polyfoam support core: I believe this is 2.5 lb density (you would need to check with them to make sure) which is a high quality material.
Microsuede cover.
There are no obvious weak links in this mattress and itās the only one that uses a high quality/density support layer. The āstandardā caution about minimizing the use of 4 lb memory foam would still apply. They also have a no cost refund option if you arenāt happy with the mattress which may be different from the others (depending on the retailer that you purchase from because Tempurpedic also has a refund option if you buy from them but there can be some costs involved).
In terms of the overall quality/durability of all the materials and components in each mattress taken āas a wholeā ā¦ I would rate the Select Foam 1st, the Tempurpedic 2nd, The iComfort 3rd, and the Sealy Optimum 4th.
Hope this along with the other parts of your personal value equation that are important to you helps you make some good āvalueā comparisons
Phoenix
Thank you so much Phoenix!!