everything hurts - sinking into memory foam

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
1

Hello fellow mattress victims.

We are R & V and we have been lurking for a while but this is our first post. Before i describe our situation, i would like to thank the moderator(s) for running such a fine forum. Very useful info here. Thanks!

I will start at the beginning. Around 2005 we bought our first memory foam mattress (tempurpedic). At first it felt great and we were in heaven. The mattress sat in a european bed with adjustable flexible stat system (italian) and everything was great. After a few years our backs started to hurt but we couldn’t quite make out why. At around the same time we moved to germany (from LA) and sold the bed including the mattress.

In germany we purchased a new bed (again, european style, flexible adjustable slats) and purchased another set of memory foam mattress. This was still assuming memory foam “is for us”. The new mattress were pretty much the same contraction as our previous tempurpedic. about 2" of memory foam and another 6" of normal foam. When we received the bed it felt similar to the tempurpedic when it was new and we were again “in heaven”.

after about 6 months the problems started. our backs felt progressively worse and now it’s gotten to a point where “we need to do something”. we wake up several times during the night and find our “behinds” sunken deep into the mattress and it feels like there is absolutely not support. btw, we have moved back to the US now, with the be/mattress we bought in germany.

What’s sad is that when we first go to bed, the mattress feel great. firm and strong support. This is because we like to let a lot of fresh air into the bedroom before we go to bed and especially now, in winter, that air is pretty cold and the mattress firms up “great”.

I have tried to fiddle with the adjustable slat system but that doesn’t really change much. The support is just gone after the mattress warms up.

So far our back story. So we have been reading her and elsewhere and our assessment so far has bee that this particular memory foam mattress we have just isn’t for us. maybe it has degraded quickly or never was for us in the first place. it seems that what we need is a mattress with much stronger and firmer support. there may still be some memory foam as the top level, but that is sort of a different subject.

i might also add that we are both pretty tall and skinny (6’, 120 & 140lbs).

For those that are still with me, i have some questions:

  1. if we were to buy a latest mattress, would that work on a european style bed frame & adjustable flexible slat system? our bed doesn’t really have room for a box spring / foundation as used here in the US

  2. our bed is european size and doesn’t really fit any US size mattress. the closest thing would be a cal-king but that is 4" too long. i will have to modify the bed to accommodate a cal-king. but we love this bed (leather) and my wife isn’t ready to give it up. i wonder if there are companies out there that over custom mattress sizes?

  3. we would like to hear from other “skinny” type’s out there what they found to be a good mattress for their body type. We found a lot of good advice exists here and elsewhere, but it’s mostly for “normal” or heavier builds that may have a little different requirements.

  4. does anyone have any feedback on plushbeds? we are very interested in an all organic/natural mattress and stumbled across their website. any experience?

  5. to verbalize what we want is: a mattress that permanently feels like our current memory foam mattress when it’s really cold. very firm support, but the very top layer to be “like memory foam”. we wonder what type of mattress will give us this, regardless of temperature? does such a mattress exist?

i will try to post some pictures of what we currently have tomorrow. meanwhile thanks in advance for any feedback.

R & V
Las Vegas, NV

2

Hi Pixbroker,

Setting aside for the moment new mattress options, you might try creating a barrier between you and the memory foam to prevent your body heat from softening the memory foam. Whether it’s a feel you like or not I don’t know, since it will change the surface feel. Ideally, you’d use a thin topper or mattress pad, wool or latex maybe… But if you don’t have one, you might try putting a comforter on top of the mattress and sleeping on that. With a latex topper, you might try a firmish layer of latex if you prefer firm top feel… Maybe as little as 1". Unfortunately, once you’re talking about buying toppers they’re usually not returnable which means it’d be basically trial and error with little chance of returning any errors.

Sometimes people accidentally firm up their memory foam with a mattress pad or topper, and feel their mattress is too firm. In your case, it might be just what you want. In any event, it seems pretty simple to try a night or 2 as an experiment if you have a spare comforter (although that wouldn’t be a perfect test either since it’s a comforter and not a slab of latex or a wool mattress pad :wink: )

3

Hi Pixbroker,

While this is a memory foam mattress … it wouldn’t be the same as the Tempurpedic you had if it only has 2" of memory foam because the Tempurpedic you had would have had a thicker layer of memory foam and may have been denser or “more supportive” memory foam as well. Since the mattress you have only has 2" of memory foam the issue could be that there is a fairly low quality foam underneath the memory foam that has softened which along with the changing response of the memory foam with temperature and time may be aggravating the problem. The issue of memory foam continuing to soften over the course of the night and allowing you to sink in more deeply over time and with changing temperature is a common issue with memory foam mattresses and one solution is to use thinner layers of memory foam over a more resilient layer that isn’t temperature sensitive but in your case you appear to already have a mattress with a thin layer of memory foam so there may be more happening than just the softening of the memory foam. Do you happen to know more specifics about your mattress or the densities of the foam layers (either the memory foam or the polyfoam underneath it).

The key here would be to identify why your symptoms are happening but dn’s suggestions would be well worth trying. If the main reason for your “out of alignment” condition when you’ve been sleeping for a while is the softening of the foam underneath the memory foam then you may need to replace the mattress.

While it may not help with your current mattress … it may be worth considering memory foam that is less temperature sensitive and changes it’s response less with temperature. Many of the gel memory foams and some of the newer memory foams are less temperature sensitive (they have a smaller range between “firm and mushy”). If you also have a mattress with only 2" of memory foam in the top layer then the quality and properties of the foam underneath it would be a significant part of both the feel and response of the mattress and its durability as well.

The adjustable slat system may be a partial solution (firming up the middle part of the slats under the pelvis) and may be helpful in combination with other ideas such as dn’s suggestions even if any one adjustment doesn’t work well enough by itself.

Tall and thin people usually fall on one of two ends of the spectrum. They either need softer comfort layers than normal because their lighter weights need softer foam to sink in more and relieve pressure or they need firmer (or sometimes thinner) comfort layers than normal so that they have “just enough” pressure relief but still have freedom of movement on the mattress. Many tall thin people tend to be “sprawlers” and don’t like or do well with sinking in too far into their mattress. They may also be more sensitive to pressure points (their bony protrusions such as shoulders and hips can be more sensitive) and also to alignment issues because they may have higher weight concentrations in the middle of their body. Your own experience will tell you where on the spectrum you may be.

I’m assuming you mean “latex” rather than “latest”? If that’s the case then most European flexible slat systems would be fine. In North America a latex mattress usually (but not always) uses a firm non flexing support system so a flexible slat system would become an “active” part of your sleeping system and may change how the mattress feels and responds compared to what you test in a showroom if it has a rigid support system. The slats will have a bigger effect with thinner latex mattresses than they will with a thicker one. Although a rigid support system with a thicker mattress where the mattress itself does all the work with its support and comfort layers is more common here … there are also some manufacturers who sell thinner latex mattresses that are designed to be used on either an active box spring or a flexible slat system (either tension adjustable or not) as part of the sleeping system.

Many factory direct manufacturers either local or online can build a mattress to any size you wish as a custom order. The tutorial post here includes a link to a list of the members here that sell latex mattresses online in many different designs and price ranges and many of these will build a custom size. The tutorial post also has the basic information, steps, and guidelines that can help you make the best possible choices.

Some of the better options I’m aware of in the Las Vegas area are listed in post #2 here but there are no factory direct manufacturers in the area that make memory foam mattresses so I would call them first to make sure any of them are able to order a mattress that works well for you in a custom size from their supplier.

A forum search on Plushbeds (you can just click this) will bring up more information and feedback about them.

What I would probably suggest is a thinner layer (probably in the range of about 2" or possibly even less depending on your testing and experience) of firmer less temperature sensitive memory foam with at least 4 lb density )so that when it warms up more you don’t keep sinking in quite as far) with a more resilient layer underneath it that isn’t temperature sensitive and is a good match for you in terms of PPP. It should also be a very high quality material so it will be more durable and not soften or break down too quickly. Latex would be a good choice here. Of course you could also buy a latex mattress that is “on the firm side” and then add a 2" memory foam topper. All memory foam will be temperature sensitive but there is a range of different temperature response between different types of memory foam (you can see some of the different properties of different types of memory foam in post #9 here). It may be worth trying one of the Tempurpedic weightless collection as a reference point which use a thinner memory foam layer over a more resilient polyfoam underneath it (instead of thicker layers of memory foam) as an example of this general style of mattress although there would be others as well that have a different feel and performance in the same general style that would be in much lower price ranges.

Hope this helps to give you some sense of direction.

Phoenix

4

Thanks for your informative reply. It seems the Las Vegas area link didn’t work. Do you mind positing it again. Thanks so much.

5

Im adding some detailed pictures of our bed, adjustable slats and mattress below and appreciate any feedback.

im curious if there is any “quick & dirty” way to estimate the density of the 2 foams involved in our current mattress? i.e. is there a standard size and weight object i could place on either foam to get an idea what density / viscosity we are talking about?

full resolution pictures here: Dropbox - Error - Simplify your life

6

Hi pixbroker,

Oops it seems I forgot to add the Las Vegas link. It’s fixed now … and thanks for letting me know.

Unfortunately density is completely independent of the softness/firmness of a foam and any density can be made in a wide range of firmness levels and in the case of memory foam with a wide range of different properties. Density ratings are the weight of 1 cubic foot of foam so the only way to calculate density would be to weigh the material in each layer separately, calculate the number of cubic feet in the layer, and then divide the weight by the cubic feet to get the density rating.

[quote]
NOTE: couldn’t figure out how to attach images here (add file would not bring up file dialog), but the images are hosted here:
[/quote].

There seems to be some glitch (possibly in the template of the site) that I’ve never been able to track down and that seems to affect some browsers. It sometimes works if you click inside the window to the right of the attachment number (above the Add File box).

If you’d like I can also download the images and attach them to your post for you (I use firefox which works for attachments).

Phoenix

7

That would be great, please grab the images from the dropbox link and add them to the original post or a reply. Thanks so much!

www.dropbox.com/sh/2vo2dr01bx7glc6/5pNj8tXk6w

8

Hi Pixbroker, just a question, is it possible to try your mattress on the floor in order to narrow down for sure whether it is the mattress itself or the support system that is causing the issue?

9

The thought has crossed my mind. Thanks for suggesting it. I think we will try this tonight. The one thing that had me doubt this theory before is that the support slats are a constant. I.e. if they were not supporting, they would do so all the time, and not only after we lay in the bed for a while, wouldn’t they? Still worth a test, i agree.

10

Hi pixbroker,

I added the images to the reply where you originally linked them.

I think SleepDeprived’s suggestion is a good one if for no other reason than to rule out one possible cause. Sometimes the symptoms of an alignment issue can take a while to become noticeable (the body may be able to deal with it for a short time without producing “symptoms” but not over the course of hours) so it’s always worth trying a solid surface just to confirm the main underlying cause is the mattress and not the support underneath it.

Post #4 here also has some ideas that can sometimes help a sagging mattress at least partially or temporarily.

Phoenix

11

Many thanks for adding the photos. The dropbox link is still there for anyone who would like to view the full resolution images.

12

So i did a quick test. Put the mattress on the floor (tile) and lay down for about 30min (nice nap). When i got up, everything hurt just like when the mattress in on the foundation. The “hole” where my butt sank in was about 2-5-3" deep. and this was only after that short time, imagine how bad it is after a full 8h.

So while there might be additional things wrong with our foundation that need fixing, i think this is not the main (or sole) cause of the sinking and resulting back pain.

I think we kinda like the feel of the memory foam top, but either the support polyfoam is too soft now or the memory foam completely gives up when heated, so that we basically sink thru to the polyfoam. The thickness of the memory foam is ~2.5" so the depth of the hole makes sense in that context.

At this point, i would like to explore a latex (natural, organic) mattress. What i am not sure is how that should be contracted and what thickness we should get. Im not quite clear yet how our current memory foam “feel when cold” compares to ILD’s of talanay latex.

We had plans to try latex this weekend here in vegas, but so far none of the stores i called has any :frowning: not sure heats up with vegas and latex :slight_smile:

13

Hi pixbroker,

I think your two best bets for latex in the area would be the first two links in the Las Vegas list.

R & S matress carries a line of Brooklyn Bedding latex mattresses and they may be able to build a custom size for you and Ergobedroom also has a variety of latex mattresses that would be good for testing and they may also be able to order a custom size.

Post #2 here has more about the differences between latex and memory foam but they are not really comparable because memory foam changes its softness and response with temperature, humidity, and time while latex just responds to pressure and is more consistent with different conditions. The best way to know what latex “feels” like either by itself or with memory foam on top of it is to test it in person.

The thickness of the latex mattress will be less important than the thickness and firmness of each of the layers and the overall design of the mattress (including the cover) because regardless of the thickness of the mattress, the design will have more to do with how it feels and performs although in very general terms (all other things being equal) thicker mattresses tend to feel softer. A “typical” size for a latex mattress would be in the range of 8" to 9" which has room for a firmer support layer and a comfort layer on top but both thinner and thicker can also work well depending on the person and the design.

It would be great if one of them had a memory foam topper in their store that you could add on top of any latex mattresses you were trying so you could test something closer to the combination you are considering. Without this I would probably suggest choosing one that was a little firmer than you would otherwise be comfortable with to compensate for the fact that you would be adding a softer memory foam topper. You may also be fine with a basic 6" mattress that used the memory foam layer on top of it to replace any softer latex that would otherwise be part of the comfort layers.

Phoenix

14

So we were hunting around Vegas yesterday trying to test latex mattresses and as elsewhere mentioned on this forum, Vegas is a real “dessert” when it comes to Latex. We Ergobedroom isn’t open on weekends (really?) and some of the others that claim to carry Latex, don’t currently have any on the floor.

Eventually we got lucky and found 1 all latex mattress at R&S (thanks Phoenix). The store Manager, Mike was super nice and relatively knowledgable. He took a lot of time explaining and answering questions and was not pushy at all. He has restored all my faith in mattress sales persons :slight_smile:

What we tested there was BB’s Enchantment Total Latex. It felt pretty good but we were unable to make a decision on ILD because that was the only Latex mattress they had and Mike didn’t know the ILD of hat particular one.

As a side note, while there, we also tested several other not-all-latex and memory foam mattresses and we were able t confirm that memory foam is not for us and likely the main cause of our back problems. As a funny side note, we also tested “the presidents bed”, aireloom, and i don’t get what the fuzz is all about, seems nothing special.

Anyways, now that we know we want all latex, we are now left with 2 major decisions:

  1. we need to find out what ILD top layer(s) we want/need. first we must find out what ILD that mattress from BB was. the label read: Total Latex by BB, Enchantment, Ultra Plush Euro Top. once we know that maybe we can have a better idea of what we tested. Mike said that the firmness is medium-form, or a medium on the firmer side, whatever that means in ILD, but he didn’t know for sure. it felt pretty good to us, but maybe we want to go harder or softer, not sure.

  2. we must mane a decision on who to buy from. since Mike was so nice, we are inclined to go with BB, but they don’t offer a 9" all natural latex. Also, we are thinking, maybe it will be good to have a mattress that has 3 latex layers, so we could have 2 different ILD’s that could be swapped/configured to our liking. Curious to hear others thoughts on that.

We have narrowed it down to the following options for us, all Cal King:

BB 10" Natural Latex, The Essence
6" natural Dunlop
3" natural Talalay
1" natural wool
$2349
(120 day return, buyer pays shipping, 1 $75 comfort exchange)
(we don’t like that they don’t offer 9", our target height", return/comfort policy is not as good)

SleepEZ 9 " ORGANIC LATEX MATTRESS
3" natural Dunlop
3" natural Dunlop
3" natural Talalay
1" natural wool
$1975
(90 day returns, buyer pays shipping, 1 $30 comfort exchange, more possible with buyer pays shipping)
(lowest price of our 3 options, 3 layers, more config options in-home, best/cheapest comfort policy)

Plushbeds 9" Botanical Bliss, all natural latex
6" natural dunlop (what’s ARPICO?)
3" natrual talalay
1" natrual wool
$2199
(100 days return, buyer pays shipping, 100 days 1 time comfort exchange, buyer pays shipping)
(middle price point of our 3 options)

We are looking for thoughts and suggestions on these 3 options please.

One last question, is 9" a good height for an all natural latex mattress? we don’t want to go much thicker because of the way our bed is constructed, it will end up too tall. but we are curious if 9" is ok on our european, adjustable slat system (see pictures earlier in the thread).

Thanks for reading.

15

The source of their Latex … Arpico

vs

The source of Brooklyn Beddings Latex … LatexIntl

16

Thanks. Is there some difference in the source of the latex that is of any relevance to the consumer?

here is a 7-zone core which sounds really interesting:

are there any mattresses out there that use the 7-zone core?

17

Hi pixbroker,

ILD is a comfort spec and isn’t important to know when you are testing a mattress locally because with careful and objective testing your body will tell you much more about whether a mattress is a good match for you in terms of PPP than comfort specs.

There are only two ways to choose the layers or design that is best for you in terms of PPP. The first is with your own local testing and the other is with more detailed conversations with an online manufacturer or retailer (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here).

As you probably know … Brooklyn Bedding has two mattresses that use 9" of latex in their design … the Total Latex mattress and the Essence but their mattresses that are sold through their R & S liquidation outlets are not the same as they sell online and I’m not familar with the specifics. Small differences in the amount of latex in a mattress would be less important than which mattress was the best match for you in terms of PPP unless the actual height of the mattress was important for other reasons.

These are all good options with no weak links in their designs so you would be making a final choice between “good and good” that would depend on all the criteria of your personal value equation that were most important to you (see post #2 here). The differences between them besides the cost would primarily be the differences in the type of latex that they use, the different exchange options, and the differences in design that would allow you to customize each mattress to different degrees (either with different firmness levels or types of latex) either before or after a purchase. There is more about the potential benefits of having more individual layers to choose or customize in post #2 here.

The thickness of a mattress is much less important than the specifics of what is inside the mattress and which specific design is the best match for you in terms of PPP. There is more in post #14 here about the potential benefits of thicker individual layers or the mattress itself. 8" - 9" of latex is inside the range for the thickness of the latex layers inside a mattress that would allow for a suitable design for the large majority of people.

With 9" of latex your adjustable foundation would probably have “some effect” for most people in terms of customizing the firmness of the mattress or fine tuning it’s feel and performance compared to using the same mattress on a firm non flexing foundation or support system. A tension adjustable foundation would have more effect with thinner mattresses and less with thicker mattresses. It would also tend to have a bigger effect with higher weights than it would for lower weights. Whether the flexible foundation was a benefit would depend on whether the mattress on top of the foundation (with a specific setting) worked better for you than the same mattress on a firm non flexing foundation.

The source or manufacturer is not as important than the type and blend of the latex. Arpico manufactures high quality 100% natural Dunlop (as well as GOLS certified organic latex) which is very comparable to other manufacturers that also make 100% natural Dunlop such as Coco Latex, Latex Green, Latexco, and many others. There is more about the different types and blends of latex in post #6 here.

I don’t keep a record of the specific designs or components in mattresses that are made by each manufacturer or that may be available in different areas (that would be beyond the ability of any one person in a constantly changing market) but I have certainly seen mattresses that use Dunlop 7 zone designs (whether the latex is made by Arpico or another manufacturer). A couple of examples off the top of my head of manufacturers I’ve seen use it (out of many more that don’t immediately come to mind) would include Therapedic, Royal-Pedic but there are many others as well that use 7 zone cores (either Talalay or Dunlop) or zoning schemes that use fewer zones. There is more about zoning in this article and post #11 here.

Phoenix

18

We pulled the trigger on a 9" CalKing organic SleepEZ all talalay mattress today. After speaking with the 3 options we had selected, they seemed the best value (including mattress underground discount) and also offered the best return/exchange policy. Thanks again for the great input from everyone who responded. We will post updates as we learn how to sleep on our new mattress.

19

Hi pixbroker,

Thanks for letting us know what you ended up with and I think you certainly made a great choice.

I’m looking forward to your feedback when you receive it.

Most importantly … congratulations on your new mattress :slight_smile:

Phoenix

20

Hi pixbroker,

Thanks for sharing your story. I live in Australia but am interested to hear how your purchase turned out.

As a skinny tall guy myself I have at times struggled with a nice mattress, and have gone through plenty of not-nice mattress setups. One thing I tried was simply putting my latex mattress topper and wool mattress topper on top of a wooden slat bedframe. Its a nice combination of softeness and hardness so far. Occassionally I may feel soreness in my hips so I have considered even removing a slat or two where my hips and shoulders make the most pressure and seeing how that goes, but otherwise, i’d rather have a bit of soreness and decent sleep than a terrible sleep every night.