how to "deaden" a "lively" latex mattress

Mattress Talk General Mattresses Questions
1

having tried both tempurpedic and pure latex bliss i have noticed things i like and don’t like about both of them.

what they have in common is that both can provide proper support and relieve pressure points - so on a basic level of meeting those two main criteria of mattress performance they both pass with flying colors.

but that’s where similarities end. leaving aside issues of cost, availability, smell, natural vs chemical etc let’s focus on just the factors directly affecting comfort and sleep.

these would be:

1 - ability to regulate heat
2 - ability to regulate moisture
3 - ability to provide DYNAMIC support ( stabilize unwanted movement )
3 - ability to accomodate desired movement

then correct me if i am wrong:

LATEX:

1 - pass
2 - pass
3 - fail
4 - pass

MEMORY FOAM:

1 - fail
2 - fail
3 - pass
4 - fail

considering that LATEX is also less toxic, less smelly, more natural and arguably longer lasting i want to work with Latex to the extent possible

BUT !

but it has to be “deadened” somehow so that it feels stable as opposed to jello-like. as i mentioned in another thread, at least for me, this kind of stability seems to be necessary for complete relaxation.

how of course a slow response talalay would be what the doctor ordered in this case, but there seems to be an issue with availability there ? i only saw it from one retailer which only sells finished toppers ( with a zippered cover ) :

so if i use 2 or 3 layers i will have some extra covers that i paid for - i guess that’s not a huge issue - but the overall cost of these toppers is pretty high from that one retailer and i don’t see any other ones. ( edit : i called them and they confirmed it only comes with a cover and only in 3 inches thickness. they said the product is new - maybe in the future they will have different thicknesses and without cover )

it’s really good to see that it seems to be available in 19, 21, 24 and 28 ILD because that just about covers all my needs. it is however an experimental material and i was unable to find any real feedback for it - nobody really knows what chemicals are in there and / or how long it will last. the 5 year warranty is questionable.

but are there any other options ? it seems there are 3 ways at least:

1 - put memory foam over latex
2 - put memory foam below latex
3 - use thicker polyurethane foam support layers under the latex

and any combination of these …

( continued in the next post after i grab some coffee and rest my eyes )

2

( continued from post 1 )

using thicker regular PU foam base seems the most logical way to address this - because it deadens the mattress while reducing cost at the same time. also it would actually seem that HD foam would be better than HR foam because HR is by definition more lively - yes ?

i will certainly go that route but it only goes so far because i can’t bring regular PU foam close to the surface as it appears ? it doesn’t reduce pressure points as well as latex. regular PU foam is fundamentally a hard material with bubbles, while latex is fundamentally a flexible material. not sure how memory foam fits into this but i never heard complaints about memory foam not alleviating pressure points. i wish there was a spec that showed how a foam accomodates “pointy” shapes.

so the top couple of inches are going to need to be comprised of some combination of memory and latex

with memory on top of latex the problem is that due to low ILD it will collapse and whatever airflow it was able to provide under test conditions ( when not collapsed ) it will no longer be able to provide, so it is going to be hot and moist.

or am i wrong ? the site which will remain unnamed that aggreates all sorts of statistics on mattresses if you were to believe their data then memory foam is only a little more hot than latex ?

with memory foam below latex the problem is that most of the beneficial properties of memory foam - responding to heat to melt away and form a cradle - will be partially wasted. as well i will end up with a mattress that is neither supportive nor plush at the surface.

it seems slow response talalay is the only win-win scenario except that we have no idea what exactly it is and it’s not cheap. i will probably have to go this way anyway, because i don’t see any other solution.

so perhaps something like 8" of HR foam with 6" of slow response talalay on top of it and no memory foam ?

how would you do it ? any thoughts ?

3

Hi g1981c,

I probably wouldn’t use a “black and white” rating scale such as pass/fail or be coming from quite the same basic premise.

1 - ability to regulate heat: Latex better than memory foam and Talalay better than Dunlop. See post #2 here for an overview of all the factors that can affect temperature regulation.

2 - ability to regulate moisture: Latex better than memory foam because it’s more breathable. More in post #29 here

3 - ability to provide DYNAMIC support ( stabilize unwanted movement ): Memory foam better than latex. Latex better than other materials with less point elasticity or motion isolation. Memory foam has the advantage of having very high hysteresis (the opposite of resilience) which means it absorbs energy in the material (which is transformed into heat instead of being stored and returned). Latex is second to innersprings in terms of resilience. The effect of latex here depends on its construction as well. Too soft, thick, and “jiggly” will be less motion isolating.

3 - ability to accomodate desired movement: Latex over memory foam although different memory foams have a slower or faster response and can be more or less temperature sensitive.

Part of this is in the construction (comfort layers that are not too soft and thick, part of this is in the type of latex (Talalay is more “jiggly” for most people). Different layers over the latex or in the quilting can also help (such as quilting foam or memory foam or natural or synthetic fibers or various mattress pads or toppers that are less resilient). Latex memory foam combinations would be well worth trying to see how they work for you (latex either over or under thememoryu foam and I would keep the layers to 2" or less so that one doesn’t “dominate” the feel of the other too much).

As you can see in post #4 here … they are also carried by mattresses.net.

According to the Latex International site … it’s available in 15, 21, and 27 ILD. I also see it listed in various other ILD’s and they were also indicated on the LI site before they changd it to the current ILD’s so I think what is there now is correct but I don’t know for certain. Ken at mattresses.net may know more about this as well.

My personal preference if I was going for what you are going for would be 1 or 2 (and I personally prefer 2 over 1 but that is personal preference because I like a more resilient surface with any energy absorption happening under the latex).

From the next post …

this wouldn’t be my first choice but it would have an effect yes … and HD or “conventional” polyfoam would indeed have a lower resilience than HR polyfoam (by definition).

Either that or a quilting layer or a mattress pad or even a topper with fibers or less resilient foam.

I think their output data is only as accurate as their input data which is questionable in my opinion (although the sample size is large enough that errors are lessened but still subject to “mass assumptions or beliefs” about what people who write reviews believe they are really sleeping on vs what they are actually sleeping on). For example many people believed they are sleeping on latex when they bought a Sealy “Springfree” mattress but in reality they are sleeping mostly on the polyfoam comfort layers and the latex is deeper and mostly synthetic dunlop. In many cases … while there is some value to the site IMO … the “garbage in garbage out” rule applies to some extent and most people who write reviews don’t have any real idea about what is in their mattress except in the most general of terms.

I personally don’t think it’s “wasted” … only slowed down and limited in terms of how much affect the memory foam can have. Support is actually about alignment and depends on thickness and on the combination of all the layers and how well they “stop” the heavier parts from sinking down too far and how well they fill in the recessed gaps in all your sleeping positions.

I don’t have the ability to give that much time and thought to specific mattress designs for the members here and there is much more that I would need to take into account if I even went in that direction so I’ll leave all the questions about “how would you do it” beyond what I have already mentioned to your personal testing and experimentation and limit my comments to my general thoughts about various ideas and layering combinations. Even this type of response is a stretch in terms of the time it take to analyze your questions and articulate a reply that may be meaningful and helpful.

Phoenix

4

as always very informative

yeah bro, you need to express yourself with fewer words. before twitter I would have never thought I could do with 140 characters but surprisingly it turns out that I can. you approach every post as if you were writing a state of the union address speech - if you treated it more like twitter you would save yourself a lot of time, i think.

but you’re right - I’ve asked enough questions - time to start experimenting.

also, somehow I overlooked this video:

according to which Talalay GL has quite a bit of memory effect. if i will be able to track down Talalay GL in other ILDs then i think this issue will be solved for good.

thanks again !

5

Hi g1981c,

If I did this (and believe me it’s tempting) then I would be like every other site that answered everything in simplified black and white, generic, and fairly meaningless terms that didn’t deal with all the many variables involved in almost every question. There aer enought sites already that do this and there wouldn’t really be any need for one more. This is what leads to the “this is better than that” types of answers which are rarely correct, accurate, or meaningful. This would also only encourage people who want simple black and white answers answers provided for them when there aren’t any instead of finding out where inside a “range” of possibilities they may be. The good news though is that I have answered in enough detail over long enough now that I now have posts to refer to so I don’t have to write nearly as many of the lengthy versions any more :slight_smile:

Phoenix

6

Hi g1981c,

I just wanted to confirm that polyfoam (either HD or HR) can also be used as an effective top layer to tame the “bounciness” of a latex mattress. I currently have a mattress with a latex comfort layer and found that I also disliked the 'bounciness" that is inherent with the latex layer. So, I ordered a couple of one-inch layers of HR polyfoam from foamonline.com and put them on top of the existing mattress and that has really helped to tame the latex without compromising the overall comfort and support.