I am constructing a bed, and I’m curious about what ILD I should use for the base layer. The final thickness of the bed will be 8 inches, 2 of which will be a 20 ILD talay latex topper. The bed will be used primarily by a 6 ft 1, 185 lb male who is lean and muscular with a lot of weight at the shoulder area. I prefer a firm mattress, but with enough “give” because I am mostly a side sleeper. I’m wondering if I should get 6 inches of 35 ILD foam as a base layer, or if I should get 3 inches of 50 ILD (base) + 3 inches of 35 ILD (transition layer). Would having 3 inches of the 50 ILD provide a significantly different feel or level of support? Does my overall mattress thickness and configuration sound reasonable and ideal for my situation? Would another setup be potentially better? Thanks!
Hi DustinP,
Thanks for visiting TMU.
8" is certainly about the minimum you would want to go for your mattress.
Any combination you create is going to depend on your PPP’s ((Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences).
Most side sleepers tend to prefer a softer upper comfort layer or have some softness in the cover/panel layer. I am assuming you are using a blended Dunlop to get you to the 50ILD you are thinking about. Most mattress configurations, would have you at a 36-44ILD for a natural latex core. Should you choose a 6" Dunlop 35ILD base layer, the 35 only represents the first 25% of the layer, at 65% depression the ILD will increase significantly as Dunlop typically has a support factor of around 4. So, the density of the Dunlop latex being used will play a significant role as to how firm the base layer will be.
In plain English, a 50ILD is considerably firm. 3" of transition is about the max you would want for a transition layer too.
Your configuration of 2/3/3 is going to yield a fairly firm mattress with a slight soft top. Since talalay is more uniform in density, you are likely to get that bouncy give you are looking for. Although it is difficult to say if that will hit your comfort zone.
Having that higher ILD at the 5" mark will surely add more support and less chance of a sagging mattress and hammocking back, provided you have a good quality foundation that does not allow the foam to dip though too wide of slat spacing. If you like firm, this will work. If it becomes too much for your side sleeping, you can either increase the talalay to 3" or add a topper to ease up on the hips and shoulder. Just be certain to match yourself with the appropriate loft pillow for your side sleeping.
Keep in mind that 2 - 3" 35ILD Dunlop layers will not be as firm as 1 - 6" layer. in your case, the 2 -3" set up should allow for the 35ILD layer to provide some contouring, while the 50ILD supports the layer above.
Latex sort of pushes back when lying on it. So, in this firm configuration, you will sleep on top of the mattress rather than sink in. If you have wider shoulders, your head is going to be a good distance from the surface of the mattress when you sleep on your side, so you will need the appropriate loft in your pillow to compensate and keep your body aligned. Don’t just measure the distance from the mattress to the side of your head while lying on your side, you will need to add some for the amount your head is going to sink into the pillow. That will be dependent on the type and material pillow you choose. Wool pillows compress less, but become firm fairly fast, TempurPedic pillows compress more, but will not push back, latex pillows compress more too, but push back, so you will feel as if your head is floating. Selecting that pillow will not be as easy as it may seem, but be certain to select a quality pillow with good support. That can cause should pain if you miss the mark with the pillow selection.
The fabric covering the system will have an effect on the overall feel as well, so question the seller about that. If you are using a Trusted Member here, you came to the right place as they are all experts in the seeing the most minute details.
I am sure one of the Trusted Member Experts will chime in with any details that I overlooked or missed. @Sleep_EZ and @Arizona_Premium are very good at assessing this type of set up and providing materials to make it all happen. Plus, you know you are getting a quality product and not just some randomly made product from parts unknown.
Best of luck on your journey,
Norm
Hello Norm,
Thank you so much for your thoughtful, insightful reply. I have been researching a lot so that I can reply with informed questions.
First, I need to make a clarification that I neglected in my original post. For the 5-6 inch base layer(s) of the bed, I plan to use ployfoam - specifically 36 ILD 2.8lb density and possibly some 50ILD/2.8, rather than latex.
“8” is certainly about the minimum you would want to go for your mattress."
I’m curious - what is your reasoning for this? My understanding is that, for a firmer bed, 8 should be plenty? Would a thicker bed provide any benefits?
“Most side sleepers tend to prefer a softer upper comfort layer or have some softness in the cover/panel layer.”
Yes, I have been reading that a lot. I am kind of torn on this one. It seems like I “should” get a softer bed because I am a side sleeper, but I seem to really prefer a firmer bed. I just want to make sure my “preference” is not arbitary or just a result of the old-school mentality that “firmer is better”. In other words, I want my preference to match what is best for my posture and pressure relief. Do you feel it’s possible or likely that a firm bed (such as I have described) would provide ideal posture and pressure relief for a side sleeper with a height/weight/body composition such as myself (6-1, 185lbs, lean and muscular with a lot of weight in shoulders and hip area)?
“So, in this firm configuration, you will sleep on top of the mattress rather than sink in. If you have wider shoulders, your head is going to be a good distance from the surface of the mattress when you sleep on your side, so you will need the appropriate loft in your pillow to compensate and keep your body aligned.”
Great points. Yes, I think that is the feel that I like - sleeping on top of the mattress, rather than sinking in. And yes, I do prefer a firmer pillow that is thick enough for my head to be elevated enough.
“3” of transition is about the max you would want for a transition layer too." Just curious - why is that? And in my situation, wouldn’t the 3 inch “transition” layer serve more as a support layer because it is 35 ILD? I think you eluded to this when you said it would provide some support and “countouring”? I just don’t want my hips to sink in too much. As you said - I like to sleep on top of the mattress and not “in” it. Yes, I will have a solid enough queen platform bed (metal slats that are 7 inches apart, with a center support, all covered by peg bard with holes for breathability).
I actually currently own a twin XL from Sleep EZ (great company). It is constructed as follows: 3 inch dunlop base (37-40 ILD), 3 inch dunlop transition layer (30-32 ILD), 2 inch talalay topper (19-22 ILD). The mattress feels a bit too soft and bouncy for my preference. I prefer more of a “dead” feel, with just enough cushioning and plenty of support. But I am greatful to have this bed, as it allows me to experiment with the different layers.
Quick question on 50ILD polyfoam: Is this firmness necessary for a base layer (specifically for individuals under 200 lbs)? I am wondering if 35ILD poly would be more appropriate for someone like myself (under 200lb side sleeper). It seems that the 35 would allow my hips and shoulders to sync in a bit at the top layers and provide sufficient support at the bottom?
Question on Dunlop latex: What is the softest Dunlop GOLS latex you have heard of? Is it true that it only gets as soft as about 28 ILD?
After carefully reflecting on your message, along with all the other research I have done, I am considering the following configuration:
-4 or 5 inch 35 ILD base -2.8lb poly (is 4 inch enough?) I am also considering getting 2 inches of 50 ILD for the very bottom layer - this would give me design flxibility and a more rigid bottom layer. Would this even make sense?
-2 or 3 inch 30 ILD (or possibly a bit softer) Dunlop comfort layer (I like the Dunlop’s simple, natural production process, more “dead” feel than Talalay, and that I can get it with GOLS.)
With this setup, I would have the flexibility to add a 2 inch talalay topper if needed.
I am so greatful for any more time and insights you can possibly share. Thank you again for being such a helpful resource on this journey.
Sincerely,
Dustin
Hi Dustin,
I will go over a few things tonight to answer your questions. Although, there might be a couple of folks who will be chiming in before that.
I will start with this. I am 6’ 220. I have reasonable broad shoulders as a former athlete, but I am 63 now. My mattress is one of the firmest mattresses on the market today. It is a dual sided mattress, but here are the specs. A lot of it fits right in some features you like and maybe questioning. My mattress comes in 3 versions, but for this example I will refer to the 2 of interest.
The all foam version consists of
Top to bottom Ultra Firm side 9.5-10/10
0.75" quilted 1.5lb foam 50ILD
6" Ultra Hi density 1.8lb foam 36ILD
flip
2" - 3.5lb foam 30ILD
.75" HD quilted foam 1.5lb 30ILD.
The above mattress is considered one the firmest pre-constructed available on the market.
The Hybrid Version, My Mattress Firmer Side (side we sleep on)
Ultra Firm Version 9-9.5/10
.75" quilted 1.5lb 50ILD
2.0" HD 1.8lb 36ILD
6" 13.5g Coils
Flip
2.0" HD 1.8 36ILD
1" 1.5lb foam 36ILD
1.5" quilted cover 1.5lb foam 50ILD.
I am a side sleeper with no issues on this mattress. No issues with my shoulders (I make certain that my pillow has enough loft to keep my shoulders from grinding into the mattress. Yes, the proper pillow will do that. The wrong pillow will either angle your neck to cause neck, shoulder and back pain, or be too low to angle your head down and cause similar issues. So, with a firm mattress that you sleep on the surface, be prepared to seek a new pillow/s or have the appropriate loft and firmness of the pillows you currently own.
I only offered this above to point out, there is more than one road that leads to home, particularly when you want firm. Also, not everyone wants a softer top comfort or cover layer, even as a side sleeper. As I am super comfortable on my 9.5/10 firmness mattress as is my wife, 5’4 135, yep, go figure. The guidelines are just that, general guidelines. Ultimately, it is all about your PPP’s and what you are comfortable with.
If I were building this myself, and keep it within the same synthetic materials, I would have opted for the higher density HD polyfoam as you are considering as it will be a bit more durable.
So, you need to be cautious about how high an ILD you go for, meaning you don’t want it to be too firm.
Dunlop can be made to considerable softer. @Latex_Mattress_Fact1 soft version is 19ILD, @Arizona_Premium Dunlop gets down to 19ILD, but you would not be using those lower ILD’s as a core support layer.
There are characteristics between Dunlop and talalay Pro and con latex.
I will offer some other insight tonight as I know I have been jumping around here. I just did not want to leave you hanging. But I can specifically address your concerns tonight. I am not sure where you plan on sourcing you materials, but a couple of TM’s I mentioned here can help you create a longer lasting and more durable configuration than using the polyfoam you plan to use, which is fine, my mattresses uses HD polyfoam, and not as dense as some that you are using.
Although, I understood the difference in durability in not using a 44ILD Dunlop latex, which will certainly outlast my polyfoam. Our Trusted Members could articulate and explain how to offset any of the extra bounce you may not want. As you are correct, the HD polyfoam you propose is not bouncy at all.
I chose a mattress with a thicker gauge core support layer for that reason. I was not trusting polyfoam as my core layer. My opinion always has been (justified or not) springs will outlast any foam every day and twice on Sunday, particularly since I am 220lbs. I hear the debate coming from the TM experts now! LOL
In any case we will talk more later.
Norm
Hey Dustin,
If you have been reading through the tutorials there are a couple of factors that folks are generally concerned with. Feel or Firmness, and durability and longevity. The denser a foam is the more durable it is said to be. For instance, your polyfoam choice of 2.8lbs with a 36ILD is a perfect example. My mattress comes with a comfort layer of a 36ILD, but is only 1.8lb. I would consider your choice a more durable longer lasting choice albeit the “feel” should be quite the same.
I will make the assumption that you are choosing the polyfoams for 1 of 2 reasons. One is price, the polyfoam will certainly be less expensive than Latex and second, the firmness, most Latex available from sellers top out at about a 44ILD and is considered extra firm. Although generally speaking, Dunlop will have a higher support factor than polyfoam.
Certainly, you can make any thickness mattress you desire. And companies such as Sleepez does a 7" two-layer mattress. I find that most companies range from 8-14" on average most above and below are the exceptions. You certainly can have an 8" mattress be firm as you could have a 13" be just as firm. So, it is not so much about height, it is about person preference. But it depends on material as well. You said you want to do a 5" -6" of base layer, utilizing some very firm foams. Were you planning to stop there? Adding a 1" upper comfort layer is not going to provide much change in comfort, so going to a 2" on top of your 6" puts you right at that 8" mark.
When I think of a transition layer in a mattress, it usually represents a gradual change or shift between the comfort layers and the support core. Positioning two 3" layers on top of one another is generally not viewed as a gradual shift or change, more like a support layer with a lower comfort layer on top.
Most of the time, the transition layer is used to accomplish not only a gradual change or shift, it has other functions as well, that can be accomplished with 1-2” of transition foam.
Comfort Adjusting allows a smooth transition between softer and firm layers, and between different materials, such as memory foam and latex or a spring layer and foam layer. Depending on the build of your mattress, it can provide some pressure relief. It can provide support and alignment by ensuring your body is well supported across different sleeping position and helps distribute your weight evenly. It can provide some motion isolation, in mattresses that particularly have multiple layers as I mentioned before, between a spring core layer and softer foam layer. It can increase durability. It helps to protect the comfort layers and provides additional support to maintain the mattress’s shape over time. These functions are normally served with 1-2" of foam to create that gradual change from one layer to the next.
I spoke about firmness vs density. Normally, a heavier sleeper is going to want a higher density foam for durability’s sake and longevity and then decide on how firm or soft the foam is manufactured. Most folks immediate think that 5lb memory foam is going to be firm as all heck. Not necessarily so. For example, Foam Factory Foam Factory sells a 5lb foam that is extremely soft, while tempur-pedic’s neck pillow is just above the 5lb range and is extremely firm. Density and firmness are independent of each other.
As you reflect on the configuration. That 2" 50ILD base makes a lot of sense. You may need only 1" for your base. Above that, your 4-5" 36 ILD should be fine in creating a firm mattress, I would even consider a 6" core, then you can top it off with 2" of pressure relieving foam of your choice, Dunlop or talalay. I don’t thing viscoelastic memory foam would be ideal as your pressure relief as you will sink and be hot. I would keep it at 2", not more, as anything more will start to feel plusher, even with a medium 30ILD. At that point, I don’t think you would need a topper, but if you did feel like the 2" upper comfort layer kept it too firm for you, a wool topper might be a great fix, as talalay might be a little bouncy and wool would provide that “dead” feel you like.
I know it is a lot to take in. I will remind you that no one, including me, can tell you what you like. We sometimes start out with a concept in our mind, and it seems good on paper, but in reality it sometimes does not function as you expect.
Recapping. I think a 1" base layer, 6" core support, 2" of comfort, a 1/2 to 1" quilted cover to added softness, wool, cotton or a combo, should get you a comfortable firm leaning mattress.
Hope this helps. As I mentioned previously, the guys and gals of the Trusted Members I mentioned should be able to help put this together if need be.
Norm
Thank you again Norm for this very helpful and informative response. I now have a good vision on how to proceed. What you have shared has made me more informed to help myself and others.
If I may, I do have a clarifying question. For the mattress base, I am hoping to keep the entire base to 6 inches. Would (2 inches of 50 ILD 2.8lb poly foam + 4 inches 36 ILD 2.8lb poly foam) function just as well as (1 inch 50lLD + 6 inches of 36 ILD)? In other words, would there be any benefit to having 6 inches of 36ILD poly vs 4inches for the base? I am hoping to keep the total mattress thickness to 8-9 inches if possible, with toppers(s), but can adjust if there is a signifcant advantage of going thicker. Thanks again!
This is great! It seems that we have a similiar build/preference. I sure asked the right person!
Hi Dustin,
I dont think it will make much of a difference if you do 2 inches of 50ILD under 4" of 36ILD vs vs 1" and 5 or 6" above it. I have not seen many mattresses with a 4" core support, which is why I suggested the 6". I want to do a little research on something in that regard and I will get back to you on that.
Talk later tonight.
Norm
Dustin,
As a side sleeper with large shoulders, like me (but lost some of the muscle mass), although, I am old, well not ancient, but older, your 6 ft 1, 185 lb frame that is lean and muscular with a lot of weight at the shoulder area, 6" support is probably the best combination for you.
Progressive support might work well, which is what your goal is. … 2"~50 and 4"~ 36 and given that the 2" is the further away from the body a layer as the base layer, the less of it you will feel the 50ILD effect. The 1" - 50 and 5 inch 36 would be just as good. So you have a couple of options.
Norm
I appreciate it - thanks again for all of your help and insights!
Hey Dustin and fellow MUGstr,
Please let us know how it works out for you!
Norm
Will do! I look forward to sharing.
How’s your bed since then?