I understand Natura went bankrupt and was bought by Springair 8 months ago. We actually got to lay on this one today and we were very happy with it. The quilted layer felt nice and the 4" if talalay latex felt soft although nobody could tell me what ILD it was. This was the first time we laid on a latex mattress and it definitely is more “springy” - feels like you’re on rubber (which you are). I had the impression you’d get more of a memory foam “melting” feeling - but you certainly don’t.
The Owner of the retail store is getting back to me on what the density of the “plant based” foam core is. They hype this bed as being all natural, but I assume the “plant based” foam core is really just plant based mixed with chemicals…it’s really just HD polyfoam - probably 1.8 lb/cu.ft.
The Owner said Natura will probably tell us this is a “pure” latex, but that it’s probably a blended latex? Not sure what to believe there.
The Owner was telling me there was no advantage to going with a “thicker” latex comfort layer - that our weight probably won’t even penetrate a 2" layer - let alone a 4" layer. The wife and I have laid on a number of beds now and typically found mattresses with a 6" comfort layer felt best for us. However - this 4" layer of latex did feel really good and our PPP all seemed fine. I haven’t found a 6" latex mattress “on the floor” of any store yet to compare to what the 4" mattress felt like - and I assume a 6" comfort layer in one material may not preform the same as a 6" comfort layer in another material (ie, can’t compare apples to oranges).
I was offered this for $1,919 - taxes included, no box spring or posture board. I’d heard Natura was expensive - and thsi seems to be holding true.
It’s basically the same as the Natura bed - except the comfort layer is 2" talalay latex and 2" comfort foam (1.8 lb/cu.ft HD Polyfoam) instead of 4" of latex. It didn’t feel as “soft” and the HD poly foam in the comfort layer won’t be as durable (although it’s “deeper” in the comfort layer). This mattress was only $1,250. Good savings, but it’s less quality and less comfortable.
At the next stop we made - the Owner didn’t have any latex beds on the floor. I spoke to him about the Therapedic PureTouch Serenity II or the Splendor II latex models.
Apparently that website is USA based and in Canada here, they don’t quite make them the same. The Owner didn’t have either of these mattresses, but was very helpful, calling his Therapedic rep (who actually had no idea what he was talking about). He’s going to speak directly with the manufacturer and see if he can get me either of these mattresses.
At first glance - the Therapedic PureTouch Serenity II seems to be constructed basically the same as the NaturaLatex Serene Plush - except the NaturaLatex model has a quilt layer with wool, aloe vera ticking and a fire barrier.
This Owner needs a couple of day to get back to me on how much he could sell these models to me for. I suspect it will also be in the $2,000 range.
To summarize some questions:
Do you see any advantage or disadvantage to either the NaturaLatex or the Therapedic PureTouch Mattresses? It looks like the polyfoam core base in both options isn’t the “most” durable - but it should be ok? I haven’t been able to find a latex mattress with anything else for a core layer…
Any truth to the Owners statement that with latex, adding more thickness to the comfort layer will have little to no benefit?
Does it make sense we’d be comfortably in a 4" latex comfort layer when we typically found a 6" layer in memory or poly foam worked best for us?
Is there another latex mattress manufacturer in Ontario I should be asking about?
Thanks again - you’re help has been amazing. I touted your website to both outlets I was at today. They both said that by the knowledge I had - their workers could probably learn a lot from you!!!
You are right about Natura and in some cases this has worked to consumers’ benefit when retailers are looking to clear their old Natura models at reduced prices (some have decided not to continue with Natura because of some of the issues they were having or have decided to take a wait and see approach).
In general they are good quality mattresses but as you mentioned they tend to carry a fairly high price tag and theiqr “value” would depend on the prices charged by the retailer you are dealing with and on any other benefits of the mattress and retailer that are important to you. Knowing ILD (which is a “comfort” spec and not a “quality” spec) is not really important when you are testing mattresses locally because your testing will tell you more about the PPP of a mattress than knowing the ILD of the layers. Of course it can help if you are hoping to use a mattress as a guideline for an online purchase.
As you mentioned … latex is a much different type of material than memory foam and is closer to good quality polyfoam (which is also a fast response material) in it’s “feel”.
so called “plant based foams” are more about greenwashing than reality and they are certainly not “all natural” or even close to it. There are two main chemicals used to make polyfoam with one being an isocyanate and the other being a polyol. Plant based foam have replaced some percentage of one of these chemicals (the polyol) with a plant based alternative but in most cases the plant oil has also been chemically altered to make it suitable for use in making foam. In most cases the replacement percentage is under 20%. As you mentioned it is still polyfoam that uses a little bit more renewable feedstock (and it’s still not biodegradable).
1.8 lbs would be the minimum density I would consider in a higher priced mattress and 2.0 lbs or better would be better yet.
Even synthetic latex is still “pure” latex because latex just means rubber and both natural and synthetic latex is rubber. The source of the raw materials is what makes it either synthetic, blended, or natural rubber and determines it’s value and performance (along with the type of manufacturing process either Talalay or Dunlop). As far as I know … the latex in the NaturaLatex line is blended Talalay (which is a good quality material).
In some cases this may be true (as he mentioned depending on weight) in terms of pressure relief but it can still make a difference in the support qualites of the mattress and its feel as well. You can see more about the differences between a polyfoam and latex support (or deeper) layers in post #2 here. When you are talking about 6" of latex on top of a mattress … the upper part of this would be more of the comfort layer (contributing more to pressure relief) while the lower part of this would be more of a “transition” layer which contributd both 5o pressure relief and support (to different degrees depending on the body type and sleeping positions of the people on the mattress).
While it’s true that the comfort layers contribute more to the overall “feel” of a mattress … different people are either more or less sensitive to the differences between transition and support layers as well and having more latex can certainly make a difference for many people even if its not as obvious to others. If you can feel the difference (either in pressure relief, alignment, or the overall response of the mattress) … then it would become part of the “value” of a mattress for you. If you can’t feel a difference … then it wouldn’t be as important. It seems from your comments that you can. The firmness, thickness, and type of layering (either polyfoam or latex) in mattresses you were comparing would also make a difference so sometimes it’s difficult to know if you are feeling different firmness levels or the differences in materials.
Like you I would consider this to be quite high even though it has thicker layers of wool in it. there are latex hybrids available (with about 3" of latex on top) for under $1000 so you would be paying quite a premium compared to other similar mattresses.
The value of the Serta Tempo is probably not great because it has only 2" of latex and the polyfoam in the mattress (comfort and support layers) is probably lower density than you mentioned. Are you certain that the polyfoam density is 1.8 lbs (I would want to see the spec sheet that listed it)? Typically the foam used in the comfort layers of Serta mattresses are @ 1.35 lb and the support foam is 1.5 lb). I would certainly want to confirm the density specs. Given the difference in price and construction if I was forced to choose either one or the other I would probably choose the Natura because of the better quality materials and components (if you can confirm the foam density) although neither would be particularly attractive in terms of cost/value. If it turns out that the foam density in the Serta is higher than I believe it is then it may be worth considering even though it has less of the more costly “good stuff” (latex and wool).
If this turns out to be the case I wouldn’t go in this direction either for a latex hybrid.
The wool in the Natura adds to it’s value and performance. The support layers of a mattress aren’t usually the weak link and if they are 1.8 lbs or higher they should be fine.
As I mentioned earlier this would depend on the person, their value equation, and how they felt on each mattress. I would personally choose more latex not so much because it has better pressure relief (which may or may not be the case) but because of it’s other performance benefits but this would also depend on which of the different tradeoffs were most important (including cost) and on whether I could feel a real difference with careful testing. Years down the road you will remember more about how well you slept than you will about how much you paid so within reason the cost is only one part of the “value equation” and better performance (that you can feel) and durability is just as big a part.
Yes … the top 6" of a mattress isn’t just a “comfort” layer but more of a combinatioin of comfort and transition layer. there would be very few if any people who need 6" of any foam for pressure relief along. Even a 3" comfort layer over the right support core could work very well depending on the combination or pressure relief and support it provided and on how well matched the layers were so that the transition between them wasn’t “obvious”.
Since I understand you are in Barrie, I would probably do some research on the phone (if you haven’t already) and call the retailers closest to you that are listed in post #2 here and ask them if they carry a latex hybrid with about 3" of latex over a good quality polyfoam support core. I would also call the manufacturers in the list and ask them the same thing and where would be the closest place you could test it. Some of these would probably have better value than what you have been looking at if they are available close to you so you can test them.
If you are also going as far as Mississauga (which is where nine clouds is located) … then some of the options in the Toronto list here would be even closer to Barrie and some of these would also carry latex/polyfoam hybrids.
I would do most of the work on the phone and if it involved a fairly long drive I would also get prices on the phone (to make sure the drive was worth it) before I went there.
I tend to think you could do better than any of the options you have mentioned so far but again I would do most of my research on the phone from this point and only visit “targeted” outlets which you knew carry something that you know you want to test.
Thanks - what I think you’re saying is - I should be able to find a cheaper hybrid latex/poly mattress. I should be looking for a hybrid with at least 3" of latex on top.
I also think you’re saying the NaturaLatex mattress is better than the equivalent Therapedic latex hybrid b/c it has the nice wool quilting.
It’s too bad - Mattressworld has the NaturaLatex Serene in a Queen with box spring for $800. As you mentioned, some people are just trying to get rid of them after they went bankrupt.
I’ll try calling some of the places you mentioned - the wife said she’s done shopping around, she can’t go looking for mattresses again! I’ve been on most of their websites and most don’t seem to carry latex mattresses. Both Mattressland and Mattressworld gave me the impression there aren’t many latex beds sold in our area and they are hard to find - and very costly. They looked at me like I had two heads when I asked about a full latex bed with a latex support and comfort layer…Perhaps the latex bed in my area are more costly due to a supply/demand issue?
You may look at a little more or less latex but in general you are looking at a good quality base foam with a few inches (or more) of latex over it.
I think that there should be other better value options available to you (I would be surprised if there wasn’t) but if there isn’t then it may also be worth considering an online purchase from one of the retailers or manufacturers in listed in post #21 here which ship across Canada. Of course this would depend on how you felt ordering online (with some of the exchange options available) vs ordering locally and whether the lower price was worth it for you.
For example … both Dreameasy and Dreamstar make latex mattresses of various types. Some of the other Toronto based manufacturers that are listed there also make latex mattresses and may have an outlet near you that carries them (they would look and tell you if you called them).
It seems like a solid option to throw into the mix.
I also found some time tonight to check out the websites of some of the Factory direct Manufacturers you listed in the Toronto area. Very helpful information. I think I’ll call down to them and see what they can do for me. Most are close enough that it wouldn’t be too much of a pain in the ass
One last question I had was - with Latex, it seems like as long as you get a natural or blended talalay latex - you’re good to go. There aren’t different densities or much difference in the quality. True?
Yes … that would be one of your options although I believe there are others yet that may even be less.
You can read a little more about the different types of latex in this article and in post #6 here along with post #6 here and post #2 here (which specifically compares 100% natural Talalay and blended Talalay).
I spoke with Ideal Mattress Ltd today about their latex mattresses. The gentleman I spoke with (older, accent) told me an “all” latex bed (comfort and support layer) king sized bed would be $3,500. He said their hybrid bed (latex comfort, soya HD ployfoam core) with 4" or 6" of latex on top would be about $2,700!!!
I asked him about their Ideal Phantom hybrid (3" latex over 6" polyfoam) - seen here on sale for $1,350 (king - mattress only)
And he actually told me that’s not high quality latex - and it’s not what I’m looking for! I couldn’t believe my ears and he wouldn’t really elaborate what the difference in that latex was.
I told him I’m over an hour away - asked if I could get a price list or something for me to compare options and he told me “they don’t do that” and I needed to come to the store.
I really like the setup they have where you can mix and match layers and build your own bed - but those prices are crazy! He old me their King sized quilted wool cover is $600 alone. He told me they’d charge $125 delivery and actually told me to just rent a U-Haul to come pick it up! I may call back and try and talk with someone a little more reasonable - but I was very disappointed. Unless their latex is somehow SIGNIFICANTLY better than others I could get - I can’t see how this is feasible for anyone.
On your recommendation, I called Canada’s Sleep Paradise in Barrie and asked about the Dreamstar Natural Escape Plush
It’s 6" of talalay latex over 4" of 2.2 lb/cu.ft soya bean HD polyfoam. I was told it was all natural latex and was quoted $1,530 for a King mattress (only). It has a nice wool/cotton quilted layer and seems like a better option than the NaturaLatex Serene Plush (only 4" of blended talalay latex over 6" of 1.8 lb foam core) that I could get for $1,919 (more latex and better density HD core). The Owner said there was “wiggle” room in this Dreamstar mattress.
I asked if the 6" of talalay latex were acutally three 2" layers with varying levels of firmness. The Owner said no - it was one large 6" piece of latex - but I suspect she’s mistaken?
She just sold this mattress off her floor and is getting another in over the next 10 days. If I can get her to eat the 13% tax and throw in a wool mattress cover - I kind of think we may have found the best fit. It seems to have the most latex in it for the best price. Praying it “feels” right.
Anything I’m missing?
Edit - I just found the Dreamstar Natural Escape Plush for $799???
Dreamstar is certainly one of the better options in the Toronto area IMO and of course the “value” would depend on the retailer that sold them.
I have no idea what the Torontomattresssale site is all about. Their prices indicate that they may be selling something other than new mattresses. I called the number and an answering machine came on for “The Association for the treatment of Sexual Abusers” which doesn’t seem like a mattress store to me!
Those prices are significantly higher than I would pay unless there was some compelling reason to do so.
I wonder what he considers “not high quality latex” or whether this was about profit margin or was really about the quality of the latex. I would ask him what type of latex it contained (either Talalay or Dunlop) and what the blend of raw materials was (some percentage combination of synthetic or natural latex) but his response doesn’t sound that hopeful.
I have talked with Kristina there (she and her brother are the owners) and she was quite knowledgeable about mattresses and materials. At the time she told me that they only carried the major brands they do to drive traffic (and her favorite “brand” was Kingsdown which is a brand I would tend to avoid) but I didn’t get into detailed pricing with here so if these are prices for their own mattresses rather than some of the major brands they carry then I would certainly be disappointed because these are not “good value” prices IMO (unless there is something inside I’m missing that justifies the prices)
While many retailers or manufacturers are somewhat reluctant to quote prices over the phone because many consumers don’t understand the “value” of better materials and this tends to discourage shoppers that only care about the price and not what is in the mattress … others are much more open. In many cases this is also because they don’t list “fake” prices that they can then reduce to create the “illusion” of value through “fake sales” and because they may also be more comfortable with the value of their mattresses and want to encourage comparative shopping. In cases where a retailer or manufacturer is reluctant to provide prices to someone who is clearly more knowledgeable … I would at the very least give them a description of the type of mattress I was looking for (such as a latex hybrid with about 3" of good quality latex over good quality polyfoam) and then ask them if they made or carried a mattress like this that was under a certain budget (such as say $1500). If they wouldn’t even give “approximate” pricing … I wouldn’t make the trip unless I was in the area anyway and there was some reason to believe that they may have some good quality/vaue mattresses I wanted to test.
In the case of Ideal Mattress … I would only look at the mattresses they made themselves and I would ignore the major brands they also carried. The person you talked with may have been a salesperson that was more interested in their profit or commission and wanted to “get you in the door” and sell you a mattress using sales and marketing “techniques” once you were there rather than really being concerned with providing you with a good quality and value mattress and putting your interests above their own.
It makes no sense to me that their Ideal Phantom latex/polyfoam hybrid (which they make) is listed in their “top ten” and has a price of $1037 (Queen set) and uses what they are calling natural latex (which probably indicates natural Dunlop) and at the same time someone there is putting down it’s quality/value. It’s also true that a wool quilted cover can be an expensive component (depending on the amount of wool and the ticking material) but this is also on the high side for most wool quilted covers.
There are also many manufacturers that can make custom layer adjustments to their mattress. Overall … I suspect that whoever you were talking to wasn’t (hopefully) the most knowledgeable or helpful person there.
As you mentioned this seems like much better value (which I would expect with Dreamstar).
It could well be a single 6" latex core of a certain ILD (softness level). Not all mattresses are layered in thinner layers or need to be if they “fit” your needs and preferences. There are many people who are completely happy for example with a 6" latex mattress with a quilted cover that has only a single layer of latex (perhaps with a thin quilting layer as part of the cover).
As you are mentioning … just as important as the price is how it feels and performs … but at least the value is good.
I would probably call the list of 6 manufacturers listed and ask them if they have anything suitable that is available for testing local to you (perhaps excluding Marshall Mattress which are usually sold at the Bay and may not have the type of mattress you are looking for in your budget).
Other than these … if you have talked to or visited the three outlets listed in Barrie then who else I would talk with would really depend on how far away you wanted to go in your research and testing but talking to them (either from the Barrie list or the Toronto list) about what you had tried and whether they have anything similar certainly wouldn’t hurt because you don’t have to leave your home. I would only visit the ones that were most attractive to you and where you had a reasonable idea of what they carried and whether they fit the budget range you were looking at. If one that was further away was particularly promising then they may also be worth considering.
Just to add to my fun (and by that - I mean frustration), I called down to Dreamstar today to ask them a couple of questions the local retailer couldn’t answer.
I was informed the Natural Escape Plush is now made with 3" latex over 8" soya bean HD polyfoam…instead of the 6" latex over 4" soya bean HD polyfoam. They haven’t updated their website yet apparently (nor did the local retailer know this). I asked if they had any models with more latex and she said no.
The woman I spoke to was very rude and didn’t know what she was talking about. She said I’d have to make an appointment to talk with her boss. I asked if he could call me when he gets a chance and she acted like that was a big deal. I’m like “I’m a customer who’s interested in purchasing one of your mattresses. I hope it’s not too much of a bother to have someone call me with some answers”.
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be trying to deal with wholesale manufacturers that aren’t used to dealing with the public. It can be much more effective to have the retailer talk to them to get answers to questions that you want to know because they usually have a contact there that they already have a connection with and can get answers much more easily than a customer. This is part of what I consider to be “good service” and in the end it is the part of the supply chain that deals with customers that should be the one who understands the importance of getting the answers.
Manufacturers often change their specs and in many cases a retailer won’t know about it until they place their next order. I have also found the majority of websites are not up to date. All of this leads to the “challenge” of ongoing research.
Sometimes though it can be a breath of fresh air dealing with some wholesale manufacturers. Today for example I talked with the president of Imperial Bedding and we ended up talking for over an hour. We shared many of the same thoughts about what makes a quality mattress and the current state of the industry and I was grateful that he took the time to talk with me for as long as he did and share some of the ideas behind his mattresses. His company makes hundreds of mattresses a day and he has over 45 years in the industry so these are what I call “mattress people” and it’s great to be able to learn from their experience and knowledge.
On the other hand I have talked with other manufacturers who have hung up the phone on me as soon as I started asking questions and of course every type of experience in between.
While I understand the feeling of this as well … I think the good news is that you are far ahead of where you were when you started and have already uncovered some good quality and value mattresses that are much better than what you were originally considering. You also have the experience and ability to ask good questions so that any further research you may want to do can mostly be done at home and you would only need to visit somewhere else that clearly has something better than what you already know about or that you “connected” with.
You are also much further ahead of most consumers that don’t even know the questions to ask
Quick update, I spoke with Dana at Canada’s Sleep Paradise and told her how I’d spoken with the Dreamstar warehouse regarding the “change” to the spec of the Natural Escape Plush.
She was completely unaware of this change - but she promised me even if they’d discontinued the spec I wanted (6" talalay latex over 4" soy foam core), she’d have them make me one. She said the owner of her retail store is the sister of the warehouse owner or something like that - so they’d make sure I got what I wanted!
She’s going to call and confirm this tomorrow - and hopes to have a Natural Escape Plush mattress - in the spec I want (not the 3" talalay latex over 8" soy foam) back in her store within the next week so I can test it out.
Fingers crossed they can get what I’m looking for - and that it suits us!
Of interest - I asked her if they are going to custom make me a mattress - could they make me a complete 100% talalay latex mattress. I was told they couldn’t - that they need a support core, or you’d “sink” too much in the latex mattress. I explained how there are many companies that make 100% latex mattresses and that the core layers are simply very firm (ILD 44+). She said as far as she knew - they wouldn’t make one that’s completely made of latex.
I’m looking forward to hearing about how this works out
It’s always interesting to me how different manufacturers have different “design theories” and it’s part of what makes the industry so interesting. The learning curve never stops! Sometimes too … it’s a matter of the materials that their suppliers have available or even that they’ve just never tried a certain construction or that they believe that it wouldn’t sell at the prices they would need to charge for adding more latex to the deeper layers of the mattress.
Just a quick update. We did purchase the Natural Escape Plush mattress from Dreamstar (through Sleep Paradise in Barrie). We’ve only had it for a couple of days, but the staff was excellent to deal with.
I’ll report back in a few months once we have it broken in and can truly judge how well we enjoy it.
I am from Barrie too and have found these posts very informative. I have called Sleep Paradise and they are still selling the Natural Escape and it is $1099 for the mattress and $1199 for the set. What did you end up paying for yours? Could you please share how you have found this mattress to be? Are you happy with it? Any follow up info would be much appreciated.
